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Message no. 1
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:47:44 -0400
AH HA!!

I think I have the solution, an addendum to my previous proposal on how to
rework bioware for SR3.

Still doesn't cost adepts Essence, Magic or Power Points.

Instead, each point of Body Index adds a "reverse geasa" if you will,
making powers cost more to have.

Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by 25%.
What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power or more
cost 125% normal.

Okay, exact numbers and the like really need to be worked out on this one.
But I think it would work and fits in with the "theology" of my previous
proposal.

Woohoo!! I like this concept. Like I said, numbers need to worked out,
but I like the concept a lot!

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 2
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:09:18 -0400
On 6 Oct 98, at 16:47, Erik Jameson wrote:

> Instead, each point of Body Index adds a "reverse geasa" if you will,
> making powers cost more to have.
>
> Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by
> 25%. What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power
> or more cost 125% normal.

I can understand how this works for powers gained after the bioware
is added, but how does it work at chargen? Does the character buy his
bioware first, and then buy powers?

What about phys mages?

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:14:22 -0500
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:47 PM

>Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by 25%.
>What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power or more
>cost 125% normal.

I like the concept, but how do you propose to handle those adepts who add it
in after chargen? Just have the powers taken subsequent to getting the
bioware cost more? And since your drain suggestion was progressive (each
point of BI cost the mage a +1TN on his Drain roll), how do you propose to
keep that balance with adepts?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:59:30 -0400
Quoting Patrick Goodman (remo@***.NET):
> I like the concept, but how do you propose to handle those adepts who add it
> in after chargen? Just have the powers taken subsequent to getting the
> bioware cost more? And since your drain suggestion was progressive (each
> point of BI cost the mage a +1TN on his Drain roll), how do you propose to
> keep that balance with adepts?
>

Some options (pick the ones you like):

Increase the cost of buying new power points (base: 20 karma)
proportional to the adept's Body Index.
Increase the difficulty of using adept powers (those that have
activation rolls) proportional to the adept's Body Index.
Increase the Power Point cost of new powers proportional to the
adept's Body Index (rather than a flat rate). Maybe %10/BI (or fraction
thereof).
Not an adept suggestion, but: increase the karma cost of purchasing
new spells based on the mage's Body Index (something to consider).

The real problem is that so many of the adept abilities are inate,
and require no activation roll. That makes them hard to penalize. Hmm.
Well, another option: give your adept characters the option of buying
bioware before or after their powers develop. If they had the bioware previous
to manifesting/learning their adept abilities, they pay the increased cost.
If they get the bioware afterwards, they pay the lower cost, but they're
required to roll for magic loss due to the invasive surgery. Remember the
+2 penalty for surgery conducted on a magically active patient, and you
may want to charge them extra cash for the increased care the surgeon had
to take.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:39:53 -0400
At 04:14 PM 10/6/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by 25%.
>>What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power or more
>>cost 125% normal.
>
>I like the concept, but how do you propose to handle those adepts who add it
>in after chargen? Just have the powers taken subsequent to getting the
>bioware cost more? And since your drain suggestion was progressive (each
>point of BI cost the mage a +1TN on his Drain roll), how do you propose to
>keep that balance with adepts?

Not quite sure. It, like the e-mail suggested, was a sort of epiphany that
I thought about for about a minute or two, decided the basic concept was
valid and posted it.

At chargen, I'd say that since the process *isn't* strictly linear, it
would cause costs to go up retroactively, which could cause the adept to
lose powers just as if it was Essence loss. It would also be retroactive
for a character after chargen; abilities and powers would be lost.

I think this issue is the sticky wicket of my proposal, and I'm not married
to any single thing except the base concept.

Okay...each point of Body Index causes any *single* Power Point to now be
worth only .75 Power Points (still models the 125% reverse geasa). So a
starting adept with 2 BI in bioware would only have 5.5 Power
Points...hmmm...probably need to increase the cost, make it .5 Power Points
per point of Body Index. So that same starting adept would have 2 points
of Bioware and 5 adept Power Points.

This affect would be cumulative with increases/decreases in Bioware and
Power Points.

I could go for something more complicated, but I'm trying very hard to keep
it all as simple as possible. Okay, the original SR2 Bioware takes away
from Essence for the Magically Active is the most simple method of all.
But as an alternative, I'm trying to still maintain a certain amount of
simplicity.

So to review, bioware has the following affects on everyone:
1) Reduction in maximum life span.
2) Reduction of Damage Overflow, exact numbers TBD.
3) Increase in Healing Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
4) Body Index is a hard and fast stat; can't go over it. (*new to this
post, not really sure about it yet)

For magicians, bioware the above affects plus:
5) No loss of Essence or Magic ratings.
6) Increases Drain Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.

For adepts, bioware has the affects of 1-5, and the following:76) Reduction
in Power Points, in direct proportion to the amount of bioware. Exact
numbers TBD.

Cultured bioware would obviously decrease any penalties listed above.

Goals accomplished with this basic concept:
1) While heavily altering the background mechanics of bioware, it doesn't
really alter the specific mechanics and makes older (SR2) characters still
playable.
2) It allows the magically active to have bioware and not get the infamous
"double whammy" that is currently (SR2) in place.
3) Especially with the magically active, bioware has additional
restrictions that can be used to keep even cybermonsters from becoming
grotesque. Much as with cyberzombies, heavy bioware implantation would
have potentially nasty side affects. It implements a harder "cap" on
bioware than is currently in existence.

All in all, I'll agree that this is a concept that needs work to adjust and
to work out the kinks. But I think the basic concept underneath it all is
very worthy and certainly good enough of a base concept from which to work
with.

As usual, fire away with questions and comments.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 6
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:50:40 -0400
Quoting Erik Jameson (erikj@****.COM):
> Okay...each point of Body Index causes any *single* Power Point to now be
> worth only .75 Power Points (still models the 125% reverse geasa). So a
> starting adept with 2 BI in bioware would only have 5.5 Power
> Points...hmmm...probably need to increase the cost, make it .5 Power Points
> per point of Body Index. So that same starting adept would have 2 points
> of Bioware and 5 adept Power Points.

You need to make that .8 Power Points instead of .75 for it to
work out the same as a 125% cost increase (55% of 4, 4=.8 * 5).

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 7
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:34:53 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-06 16:48:37 EDT, you write:

<< Okay, exact numbers and the like really need to be worked out on this one.
But I think it would work and fits in with the "theology" of my previous
proposal.

Woohoo!! I like this concept. Like I said, numbers need to worked out,
but I like the concept a lot! >>

Perhaps +25% of cost per each number (or fraction therof) of body Index? This
would cause the Pysad who wanted Bioware to have to undergo Geasa in order to
balance the point cost of adding bioware. This would mean that a Pysad with
3.1 to 4 BI would pay double for their powers costs or need to go on 4 Geasa
to compensate for this.

Other than that, subtract 1 year for each tenth of a point of BI from a
charecters lifespan, and 2 years per tenth of a point over the persons body.
This would represent the shortend lifespan pretty well (and make Bioware
somethng very nasty for orcs and trolls) without crippling the charecter
unduely. (But a biofreak would still get to a point where his obession will
bing hs life to a quick end)

I dont like the reduction in the overflow boxes quite so much though... the
stuff is supposed to help keep you alive ususally (In particular, I'm thinking
about platelets and symbiotes). Perhaps make it one box per point of BI (or
fraction therof) and halve that for cultured.

However, the term clonal does work just as well... THATS basicly WHAT
cultured bioware is, from reading shadowtech!!
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:25:14 -0500
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:47:44 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>AH HA!!
>
>I think I have the solution, an addendum to my previous proposal on how
to
>rework bioware for SR3.
>
>Still doesn't cost adepts Essence, Magic or Power Points.
>
>Instead, each point of Body Index adds a "reverse geasa" if you will,
>making powers cost more to have.
>
>Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by
25%.
> What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power or
more
>cost 125% normal.
>
>Okay, exact numbers and the like really need to be worked out on this
one.
>But I think it would work and fits in with the "theology" of my previous
>proposal.
>
>Woohoo!! I like this concept. Like I said, numbers need to worked out,
>but I like the concept a lot!

What about:
Power Costs are increased by ((Body Index/Body) *100)% then geas can
reduce this number. After cost increases from Bioware and cost decreases
from geas (if any) are applied, round the power cost up to the nearest
.25 power points.

For Clarity, here's an example:
a char has .2 Body Index so all powers' costs are increased by
((.2/6)*100)% = (.05 * 100)% = 5%.
So Improved Senses without a compensating geas would cost .5
(.25*1.05=.2625 rounded up to nearest .25 =.5)
Adding 1 geas, the cost becomes .25 again. (Look ma! a reason to take a
geas for powers with dinky point costs! :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Long hair eliminates the need for barbers" -- Einstein

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:04:32 -0400
>At 04:14 PM 10/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>So to review, bioware has the following affects on everyone:
>1) Reduction in maximum life span.
>2) Reduction of Damage Overflow, exact numbers TBD.
>3) Increase in Healing Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
>4) Body Index is a hard and fast stat; can't go over it. (*new to this
>post, not really sure about it yet)
>
>For magicians, bioware the above affects plus:
>5) No loss of Essence or Magic ratings.
>6) Increases Drain Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
>
>For adepts, bioware has the affects of 1-5, and the following:76) Reduction
>in Power Points, in direct proportion to the amount of bioware. Exact
>numbers TBD.
>
>Cultured bioware would obviously decrease any penalties listed above.
>
>Goals accomplished with this basic concept:
>1) While heavily altering the background mechanics of bioware, it doesn't
>really alter the specific mechanics and makes older (SR2) characters still
>playable.
>2) It allows the magically active to have bioware and not get the infamous
>"double whammy" that is currently (SR2) in place.
>3) Especially with the magically active, bioware has additional
>restrictions that can be used to keep even cybermonsters from becoming
>grotesque. Much as with cyberzombies, heavy bioware implantation would
>have potentially nasty side affects. It implements a harder "cap" on
>bioware than is currently in existence.

>
>Erik J.

Why not try the following for magicians & adepts. For each point or
partial point of bioware the awakened individual receives a geas for all
magic activites. Thats in addition to all rules that apply to mundanes.
I would treat this a a normal geas described in Grimoire. The geas of
course should be selected by the GM since the mage won't know what the
geas is until after the operations.

One of the things I wish SR did was include cyberware, bodyware & magic
bonus in calculating overstress. That's just to help hold down the the
general power levels.

-
Lorden
Message no. 10
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:27:07 -0400
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

->At 04:14 PM 10/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
->
->>>Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by 25%.
->>>What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power or more
->>>cost 125% normal.
->>
->>I like the concept, but how do you propose to handle those adepts who add it
->>in after chargen? Just have the powers taken subsequent to getting the
->>bioware cost more? And since your drain suggestion was progressive (each
->>point of BI cost the mage a +1TN on his Drain roll), how do you propose to
->>keep that balance with adepts?
->
->Not quite sure. It, like the e-mail suggested, was a sort of epiphany that
->I thought about for about a minute or two, decided the basic concept was
->valid and posted it.
->
->At chargen, I'd say that since the process *isn't* strictly linear, it
->would cause costs to go up retroactively, which could cause the adept to
->lose powers just as if it was Essence loss. It would also be retroactive
->for a character after chargen; abilities and powers would be lost.
->
<snip>
->So to review, bioware has the following affects on everyone:
->1) Reduction in maximum life span.

I still haven't understood why. On what grounds would reduction
in lifespan be warranted?

->2) Reduction of Damage Overflow, exact numbers TBD.

This one I have no quarrels with.

->3) Increase in Healing Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.

No quarrels here.

->4) Body Index is a hard and fast stat; can't go over it. (*new to this
->post, not really sure about it yet)

I disagree and have a counter-solution. If the Body Index exceeds
Body, it then costs Essence. If the Body gets increased later, then that
Essence is returned (or, not, haven't quite decided on this one yet).
This would allow people with Allergy:plastic to get more than their fair
share of bioware, true, but imagine their healing TNs and reduction in
Damage Overflow....

->For magicians, bioware the above affects plus:
->5) No loss of Essence or Magic ratings.

Ok, barring they exceed their Body Ratings and my reccomendation
holds firm.

->6) Increases Drain Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.

+1 per point of Body Index sounds fine to me.

->For adepts, bioware has the affects of 1-5, and the following:76) Reduction
->in Power Points, in direct proportion to the amount of bioware. Exact
->numbers TBD.

Hmmmm... how about on a 1 for 1 point basis? Keeps things simple.

->Cultured bioware would obviously decrease any penalties listed above.
->
->Goals accomplished with this basic concept:
->1) While heavily altering the background mechanics of bioware, it doesn't
->really alter the specific mechanics and makes older (SR2) characters still
->playable.

Ok.

->2) It allows the magically active to have bioware and not get the infamous
->"double whammy" that is currently (SR2) in place.

Ok.

->3) Especially with the magically active, bioware has additional
->restrictions that can be used to keep even cybermonsters from becoming
->grotesque. Much as with cyberzombies, heavy bioware implantation would
->have potentially nasty side affects. It implements a harder "cap" on
->bioware than is currently in existence.

Ok. Plus my addition which allows it to cause essence loss if it
goes TOO far..

->As usual, fire away with questions and comments.

I did. ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:53:22 -0700
:AH HA!!
:
:I think I have the solution, an addendum to my previous proposal on how
to
:rework bioware for SR3.
:
:Still doesn't cost adepts Essence, Magic or Power Points.
:
:Instead, each point of Body Index adds a "reverse geasa" if you will,
:making powers cost more to have.
:
:Okay, in SR2, geasa for an adept cut the cost of any specific power by
25%.
: What if we reversed that so that adding bioware would make a power or
more
:cost 125% normal.
:
:Okay, exact numbers and the like really need to be worked out on this
one.
:But I think it would work and fits in with the "theology" of my previous
:proposal.

There is very little difference between this and having adepts loose
power points but NOT magic rating when getting bioware. In fact, removing
power points would keep the math simple, avoiding ugly fractions whaile
making each point of bioware cost a reasonable amount.
Its the reverse of my idea of loosing magic, not PP, and seems it
might work a bit better.

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:06:12 -0700
:> Okay...each point of Body Index causes any *single* Power Point to now
be
:> worth only .75 Power Points (still models the 125% reverse geasa). So
a
:> starting adept with 2 BI in bioware would only have 5.5 Power
:> Points...hmmm...probably need to increase the cost, make it .5 Power
Points
:> per point of Body Index. So that same starting adept would have 2
points
:> of Bioware and 5 adept Power Points.


Why not just 1 for 1? Its easier to explain clearly (you loose on PP
for each BI or fraction thereof), and most bioware (that an adept would
choose to get) gives more per BI than a power point would.


Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:22:53 -0400
At 01:53 PM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote:

> There is very little difference between this and having adepts loose
>power points but NOT magic rating when getting bioware. In fact, removing
>power points would keep the math simple, avoiding ugly fractions whaile
>making each point of bioware cost a reasonable amount.

You're right. I hate fractions, don't know why I thought about using them
(except perhaps because I was reading geasa rules the other night).

> Its the reverse of my idea of loosing magic, not PP, and seems it
>might work a bit better.

Well, to me it works better. It also matches my theory behind what happens
with magicians.

Bioware does cause differences between the body and the aural template.
But not anywhere near as much as chunks of chrome and plastic do.
Irrelevant for mundanes. For magicians, this difference between the body
and the aural template causes an increased inability to channel drain
properly. Since adepts channel all their magic internally, into their
bodies, they would instead lose power points directly., representing
*their* differences between the body and the aural template.

Hmmmm...thought. Perhaps this screws the adepts too much and the magicians
not enough. Perhaps increase the drain target numbers for magicians from
+1 to +2 per point of Body Index? Hmmmmm...back to the workshop Igor!!!

Erik J.

Who finds it rather ironic that someone who dislikes house rules generally
is busy working on one or more house rules...
Message no. 14
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:28:44 -0400
At 06:27 AM 10/7/98 -0400, you wrote:

>->So to review, bioware has the following affects on everyone:
>->1) Reduction in maximum life span.
>
> I still haven't understood why. On what grounds would reduction
>in lifespan be warranted?

For the same reasoning behind #2, that the stress on the body detracts from
the maximum life span. It's been shown that stressed out people die
earlier than those that are more relaxed and it's not just because
stress-cases have more heart attacks and strokes and the like.

And I don't think it would be a major reduction; like a year off the top
per point of BI or something. Fairly minor really, and has very little
actual game affect I should think. I mean, how many times are any of us
going to have a PC live long enough to end their lives naturally?

>->2) Reduction of Damage Overflow, exact numbers TBD.
>
> This one I have no quarrels with.

I'm currently leaning towards -1 Box per point of B.I. for simplicity.

>->3) Increase in Healing Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
>
> No quarrels here.

I'm currently leaning towards +1 to the TN per point of B.I.; makes healing
really only slightly harder in most cases (which will generally mean longer
hospital stays I should think). And for serious bioware freaks, all that
extra 'ware probably needs extra care and special attention anyway if you
want it to heal right.

>->4) Body Index is a hard and fast stat; can't go over it. (*new to this
>->post, not really sure about it yet)
>
> I disagree and have a counter-solution. If the Body Index exceeds
>Body, it then costs Essence. If the Body gets increased later, then that
>Essence is returned (or, not, haven't quite decided on this one yet).
>This would allow people with Allergy:plastic to get more than their fair
>share of bioware, true, but imagine their healing TNs and reduction in
>Damage Overflow....

That's not too bad. I don't know if I like a hard or even a soft cap as
you propose. This requires more thought on my end.

>->6) Increases Drain Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
>
> +1 per point of Body Index sounds fine to me.

I think it probably works too. It hits the magicians fairly hard, but not
as hard as in SR2.

Of course, this is all under the assumption that SR3 will change bioware in
some way; I'm not that unhappy with SR2's treatment of it myself. Perhaps
this is merely an exercise or mental masturbation, but I think the base
concepts sound and I do plan on submitting it to Mike M.

>->For adepts, bioware has the affects of 1-5, and the following:76) Reduction
>->in Power Points, in direct proportion to the amount of bioware. Exact
>->numbers TBD.
>
> Hmmmm... how about on a 1 for 1 point basis? Keeps things simple.

I think this is basically what Mongoose suggested. It does keep things
simple and maintains a certain amount of symetry and simplicity with the
other guidelines. I think I'll be going with this instead of "reverse
geasa" as I so poorly called the concept.

>->Cultured bioware would obviously decrease any penalties listed above.

I'm thinking right now cutting things in half with cultured bioware.
What's the cost multiplier for cultured right now? That would be important
for game balance issue.

I also think this concept would also have to go back to the SR1/2 concept
of "round whichever way screws you." Didn't notice this in SR3, but it was
stated plainly in previous editions that you always rounded up or down,
whichever way was most disadvantageous. Or at least that's what I remember.

This would mean that even .01 points of Body Index would have a negative
impact on the magically active, just as it does with cyberware.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 15
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 02:08:20 +0200
And so it came to happen that Erik J. wrote:

----------

> >->So to review, bioware has the following affects on everyone:
> >->1) Reduction in maximum life span.
<sniped reply>
> For the same reasoning behind #2, that the stress on the body detracts
from
> the maximum life span. It's been shown that stressed out people die
> earlier than those that are more relaxed and it's not just because
> stress-cases have more heart attacks and strokes and the like.
> And I don't think it would be a major reduction; like a year off the top
> per point of BI or something. Fairly minor really, and has very little
> actual game affect I should think. I mean, how many times are any of us
> going to have a PC live long enough to end their lives naturally?

Well, I do not see why you should cut the lifespan. If you say its because
of the massive invasive surgery that would need to be done. But as many
here said Bio is non invasive (why I do not fully understand although I
have read the explanation earlier on the list) and I can live with that.
And as far as I see it, Bio and Cyber both were once inventend not to kill
others more swift or goory, but to heal patients. So I would say most of
the gear available is in fact quite healthy. Take the Shadowtalk from
Shadowtech regarding enhanced articulation. Yes, the average Sammy does
have quite a bit of this "healthy" cyber/bio intus, but I'd say make it
dependent on the Doc, respectively was it a chop-shop or a alpha-grade
clinic were he has gotten his liitle toys.

> >->2) Reduction of Damage Overflow, exact numbers TBD.
> >
> > This one I have no quarrels with.
>
> I'm currently leaning towards -1 Box per point of B.I. for simplicity.

Same here, make it dependent on the doc not the bio in general. Maybe
something like the above for every clinic under alpha standard.

> >->3) Increase in Healing Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
> >
> > No quarrels here.
>
> I'm currently leaning towards +1 to the TN per point of B.I.; makes
healing
> really only slightly harder in most cases (which will generally mean
longer
> hospital stays I should think). And for serious bioware freaks, all that
> extra 'ware probably needs extra care and special attention anyway if you
> want it to heal right.

Hm, Bioware sounds to me like what it is, it IS part of your natural body
once it has been implanted and was not rejected. I see that we may discuss
this whole Bioware and bodyrejection (that is what every penalty for Bio
looks like for me) on the fact of todays medicine were a
hearttransplantation IS a serious surgery task and surely a high risc for
the patient. But in 2060 it looks like the docs a "bit" further as they can
transplant the brain of an individual (or how should one see the
possibility of a Cyberhead?). So I think that one should not penalise
Bioware too much as it costs money. But I would recommend a social
interactionpenalty for Bioware (aka "Uh that guy has a real ugly bulge
under his skin there over his chest, wonder what that migth be", or
"Goddamnit, see how that guy can twist his wrist") too, as that hurts you
there it should hurt you, during legwork par example, or during
negotiations.

<snip>
> >->6) Increases Drain Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
> >
> > +1 per point of Body Index sounds fine to me.
>
> I think it probably works too. It hits the magicians fairly hard, but
not
> as hard as in SR2.
>
> Of course, this is all under the assumption that SR3 will change bioware
in
> some way; I'm not that unhappy with SR2's treatment of it myself.
Perhaps
> this is merely an exercise or mental masturbation, but I think the base
> concepts sound and I do plan on submitting it to Mike M.

I , personaly, think it hits them not hard enough. If you want that
Bioware, ok, go be a bit more mundane. You are a Magician, a Master of the
arts, you seriously do not need Bioware. Posted earlier I had stated the
main difference in the here discussed thing and the SR2nd. is that Drain is
under SR2nd. PHYSICAL (aka NO magical heal, 2 - 3 weeks of no work, no
money), under this it is STUN drain.

<snip>
> >->Cultured bioware would obviously decrease any penalties listed above.
>
> I'm thinking right now cutting things in half with cultured bioware.
> What's the cost multiplier for cultured right now? That would be
important
> for game balance issue.

Havent found anything in SR3rd., in the Healing section they had left out
the table for "Quality of organparts" so I think we have to wait for other
sourcebooks.

> I also think this concept would also have to go back to the SR1/2 concept
> of "round whichever way screws you." Didn't notice this in SR3, but it
was
> stated plainly in previous editions that you always rounded up or down,
> whichever way was most disadvantageous. Or at least that's what I
remember.
>
> This would mean that even .01 points of Body Index would have a negative
> impact on the magically active, just as it does with cyberware.
>
> Erik J.

I havent found a general entry like the above either in the SR3rd. But I
assume it is still in effect.

All of the above statements are IMO and shouldn't be seen as personal
critics, I think you did a good job for the rules above as they do work for
houserules and are logic in itself.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 16
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:05:42 -0700
:Hmmmm...thought. Perhaps this screws the adepts too much and the
magicians
:not enough. Perhaps increase the drain target numbers for magicians from
:+1 to +2 per point of Body Index? Hmmmmm...back to the workshop Igor!!!


Well, not every magical skill use causes drain. Then again, in sr2,
many did not depend much on magic rating either. But, for example, spell
defense and most astral combat would not be at all affected. I don't see
why bioware would affect some magic use more than other, but its very hard
to make a rule that evenly affects all.
Am I helping at all? No, I guess not. Magic rating in SR# is broadly
enough used that reducing it for bioware implantation is a good effect,
and, in our SR2 games, it seemed quite a good balance. <shrug>

Mongoose
Message no. 17
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:10:54 -0400
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

<snip>
->Hmmmm...thought. Perhaps this screws the adepts too much and the magicians
->not enough. Perhaps increase the drain target numbers for magicians from
->+1 to +2 per point of Body Index? Hmmmmm...back to the workshop Igor!!!

I wouldn't reccomend it. A Mage with two points of Body Index
casting a Light Wound Manabolt 4 (An easy spell in my book) would have a
drain of 6L. Doable, but compared to the 2L it was, I think +2 per Body
Index is a bit much. 4L still works just as well... Few Mages will be
putting up more then 2 points of Body Index before they start on the path
of the Burned Out Mage.

->Who finds it rather ironic that someone who dislikes house rules generally
->is busy working on one or more house rules...
->


Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 18
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: SR3 Bioware for Adepts
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:20:14 -0400
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

->At 06:27 AM 10/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
->
->>->So to review, bioware has the following affects on everyone:
->>->1) Reduction in maximum life span.
->>
->> I still haven't understood why. On what grounds would reduction
->>in lifespan be warranted?
->
->For the same reasoning behind #2, that the stress on the body detracts from
->the maximum life span. It's been shown that stressed out people die
->earlier than those that are more relaxed and it's not just because
->stress-cases have more heart attacks and strokes and the like.
->
->And I don't think it would be a major reduction; like a year off the top
->per point of BI or something. Fairly minor really, and has very little
->actual game affect I should think. I mean, how many times are any of us
->going to have a PC live long enough to end their lives naturally?

If it has very little game effect, why include specifics on it?
More than likely a severely bio'd person will meet their ends unnaturally
anyway, who here has had a SR character die of old age? Not me! ]:-)

->>->2) Reduction of Damage Overflow, exact numbers TBD.
->>
->> This one I have no quarrels with.
->
->I'm currently leaning towards -1 Box per point of B.I. for simplicity.

I was running along the same lines.

->>->3) Increase in Healing Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
->>
->> No quarrels here.
->
->I'm currently leaning towards +1 to the TN per point of B.I.; makes healing
->really only slightly harder in most cases (which will generally mean longer
->hospital stays I should think). And for serious bioware freaks, all that
->extra 'ware probably needs extra care and special attention anyway if you
->want it to heal right.

Of Course, Mr. Biotroll would have significant problems if he had
10 points of Body Index.... you may, just for people like this, indicate
that natural healing rolls are not affected by BI, because the Bioware is
'natural' it's just 'augmented natural'. Rolls to heal another are
increased by Body Index because the surgeon/doctor/paramedic has to bypass
the natural defenses of the body in addition to the defenses of the
Bioware and the Body is still trying to defend itself.

->>->4) Body Index is a hard and fast stat; can't go over it. (*new to this
->>->post, not really sure about it yet)
->>
->> I disagree and have a counter-solution. If the Body Index exceeds
->>Body, it then costs Essence. If the Body gets increased later, then that
->>Essence is returned (or, not, haven't quite decided on this one yet).
->>This would allow people with Allergy:plastic to get more than their fair
->>share of bioware, true, but imagine their healing TNs and reduction in
->>Damage Overflow....
->
->That's not too bad. I don't know if I like a hard or even a soft cap as
->you propose. This requires more thought on my end.
->
->>->6) Increases Drain Target Numbers, exact numbers TBD.
->>
->> +1 per point of Body Index sounds fine to me.
->
->I think it probably works too. It hits the magicians fairly hard, but not
->as hard as in SR2.
->
->Of course, this is all under the assumption that SR3 will change bioware in
->some way; I'm not that unhappy with SR2's treatment of it myself. Perhaps
->this is merely an exercise or mental masturbation, but I think the base
->concepts sound and I do plan on submitting it to Mike M.

Well, I may have a few players making new characters after this
weekend <EvilGMGrin> and if any of them want Bio I'll use my adapatation
of your rules to make them.

->>->For adepts, bioware has the affects of 1-5, and the following:76) Reduction
->>->in Power Points, in direct proportion to the amount of bioware. Exact
->>->numbers TBD.
->>
->> Hmmmm... how about on a 1 for 1 point basis? Keeps things simple.
->
->I think this is basically what Mongoose suggested. It does keep things
->simple and maintains a certain amount of symetry and simplicity with the
->other guidelines. I think I'll be going with this instead of "reverse
->geasa" as I so poorly called the concept.
->
->>->Cultured bioware would obviously decrease any penalties listed above.
->
->I'm thinking right now cutting things in half with cultured bioware.
->What's the cost multiplier for cultured right now? That would be important
->for game balance issue.

Cultured is 4x normal cost, except that ALL NEURAL BIO IS
CULTURED. A little twist for your to iron out.

->I also think this concept would also have to go back to the SR1/2 concept
->of "round whichever way screws you." Didn't notice this in SR3, but it was
->stated plainly in previous editions that you always rounded up or down,
->whichever way was most disadvantageous. Or at least that's what I remember.
->
->This would mean that even .01 points of Body Index would have a negative
->impact on the magically active, just as it does with cyberware.

I would believe so as well. I've always ran by the "round in the
worst direction" rule for both players and NPCs (I go through a lot of
NPCs too....).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SR3 Bioware for Adepts, you may also be interested in:

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