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Message no. 1
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:50:28 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/1998 9:43:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
justin@******.NET writes:

> # Average Weights
> # Dwarf 54 kg
> # Elf 72 kg
> # Human 70 kg
> # Ork 95 kg
> # Troll 225 kg
> my god!
> that is almost 1/4 of a tonne
>
Yeah, and your point is??? Trolls are big people, the height table alone puts
them at a significant distance to be measured at.

(the following is repeated here with FASA permission, as was the above, but is
not in any way, shape, or form and intent of copyright challenge)

Dwarf : 1.2 meters
Elf : 1.9 meters
Human : 1.7 meters
Ork : 1.9 meters
Troll : 2.8 meters

And please note, these are the "world wide averages", and do not give examples
of the "exceptions" that exist everywhere as well.

-K
Message no. 2
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:20:34 -0400
> > # Average Weights
> > # Dwarf 54 kg
> > # Elf 72 kg
> > # Human 70 kg
> > # Ork 95 kg
> > # Troll 225 kg
> > my god!
> > that is almost 1/4 of a tonne
> >
> Dwarf : 1.2 meters
> Elf : 1.9 meters
> Human : 1.7 meters
> Ork : 1.9 meters
> Troll : 2.8 meters
>
> And please note, these are the "world wide averages", and do not give
> examples
> of the "exceptions" that exist everywhere as well.
>
>
For those of you who don't have a calculator handy,
let's see the density in kg/m. This gives you an idea of how thick or
thin each race is (on average). Also a body mass index, with humans
being a 1, for relative comparison.

Dwarf: 45 kg/m BMI: 1.1
Elf: 37.9 kg/m BMI: 0.9
Human: 41.2 kg/m BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
Ork: 51 kg/m BMI: 1.2
Troll: 80 kg/m BMI: 1.9

From this you can see that the elf is still more slight
than the human even though they weigh more. And that orks are a bit
stockier than dwarves. And that trolls blow any sense of symmetry a
chart might have.
Message no. 3
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:23:49 -0400
Once upon a time, Bryan Covington wrote;

>And that trolls blow any sense of symmetry a
>chart might have.

Trolls have always had this problem with symmetry, just look at their
horns.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 4
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:42:55 -0500
> For those of you who don't have a calculator handy, let's
>see the density in kg/m. This gives you an idea of how thick or thin
>each race is (on average). Also a body mass index, with humans
>being a 1, for relative comparison.
>
> Dwarf: 45 kg/m BMI: 1.1
> Elf: 37.9 kg/m BMI: 0.9
> Human: 41.2 kg/m BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
> Ork: 51 kg/m BMI: 1.2
> Troll: 80 kg/m BMI: 1.9

No, No, No. Density is mass per volume, as in kg/m^3, not kg/m.

Correcting for this, the new numbers are:

Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3

I don't think these numbers look very good.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 5
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:14:59 -0400
> > For those of you who don't have a calculator handy,
> let's
> >see the density in kg/m. This gives you an idea of how thick or thin
> >each race is (on average). Also a body mass index, with humans
> >being a 1, for relative comparison.
> >
> > Dwarf: 45 kg/m BMI: 1.1
> > Elf: 37.9 kg/m BMI: 0.9
> > Human: 41.2 kg/m BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
> > Ork: 51 kg/m BMI: 1.2
> > Troll: 80 kg/m BMI: 1.9
>
> No, No, No. Density is mass per volume, as in kg/m^3, not kg/m.
>
> Correcting for this, the new numbers are:
>
> Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
> Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
> Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
> Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
> Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3
>
> I don't think these numbers look very good.
>
Um, I was just figuring how much each race weighed per
meter of height. I never said this had anything to do with density.
Change BMI to "Convenient number I made up to compare things with"
(CNIMUTCTW?). I just divided weight (kg) by height (m) to get kg/m. From
there I just divided each weight by 41.2 (the human mass per meter) to
get the "Convenient number I made up to compare things with".

Am I reading right that these numbers say that trolls
are hollow? And that humans are far denser than the other races? Is
there a cubic meter of matter in a normal human? I think even I would
fit in a 1m x 1m x 1m box with a good bit of room and I am not a small
fellow (as MC can attest).
Message no. 6
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:23:49 -0400
> No, No, No. Density is mass per volume, as in kg/m^3, not kg/m.
>
> Correcting for this, the new numbers are:
>
> Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
> Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
> Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
> Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
> Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3
>
> I don't think these numbers look very good.
>
>
Actually I think I found the problem here. We need
volume to figure out the density as you calculated it. We don't know the
volume of a troll, unless you want to shove one into a grinder so we can
take a reading or two. We only know the height and weight of an
irregularly shaped object. Thus (to my knowledge) all we can figure is
the average mass per meter. This is average since the 2cm cross section
of the ankles is much lighter than the 2cm cross section of the chest.
So its an average, it isn't medical and it isn't exact. It's just for
comparison.
Message no. 7
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics -Reply
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:30:18 -0500
> Actually I think I found the problem here. We need volume to
>figure out the density as you calculated it. We don't know the volume
>of a troll, unless you want to shove one into a grinder so we can take
> a reading or two.

True, but we don't need the actual volume to get a reasonable
comparison between races (i.e. the BMI number scaled to 1.0 for
humans). The point I was making is that volume is proportional to the
cube of height, not just height. This holds true for mice and elephants,
so it should hold true for all metahumans.

Trolls should be much heavier. After all, a seven foot tiger weighs
about 900 lbs, IIRC.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:20:27 EST
> > Dwarf: 45 kg/m BMI: 1.1
> > Elf: 37.9 kg/m BMI: 0.9
> > Human: 41.2 kg/m BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
> > Ork: 51 kg/m BMI: 1.2
> > Troll: 80 kg/m BMI: 1.9
>
> No, No, No. Density is mass per volume, as in kg/m^3, not kg/m.
>
> Correcting for this, the new numbers are:
>
> Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
> Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
> Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
> Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
> Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3
>
> I don't think these numbers look very good.

That's because, (as far as I can tell) you didn't correct for the
other two dimensions...a troll has thicker arms, legs, torso, etc, as
well as being taller. I doubt SR3 has the numbers for this, (SR2
didn't), so the actual quantities are guesswork. I'm going to assume
that (meta)human tissue remains near 1.0 in density, and so the
various races all work out the same (trolls would be bit worse
because of the dermal bone, but I'd say as part of the overall, it
wouldn't be enough to prevent them from, say, swimming.

-=SwiftOne=-
In other words, you remembered their height, but not their Gurth, er,
girth. :)
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:12:15 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
/
/ Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
/ Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
/ Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
/ Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
/ Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3
/
/ I don't think these numbers look very good.

Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.

((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.

If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.

Remember, this is for an average person.

I'd do it myself, but I accidently deleted the post with the heights
and weights.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:16:39 -0400
> Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.
>
> ((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.
>
> If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
> healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.
>
> Remember, this is for an average person.
>
> I'd do it myself, but I accidently deleted the post with the heights
> and weights.
>
All this is gonna say is that elves are thin, humans are
average, orks and dwarves are fat and trolls are morbidly obese (yes
this is a medical term).
Message no. 11
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:20:43 -0400
bryan.covington wrote:
[gratuitous snippage]
>> Correcting for this, the new numbers are:
>>
>> Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
>> Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
>> Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
>> Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
>> Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3
> Am I reading right that these numbers say that trolls
>are hollow? And that humans are far denser than the other races? Is
>there a cubic meter of matter in a normal human? I think even I would
>fit in a 1m x 1m x 1m box with a good bit of room and I am not a small
>fellow (as MC can attest).

The big assumption made (AFAICT) is that each race has the same build
(ie if you took a picture of a dwarf and blew it up, you'd get a human -
blow it up some more and you get an elf, an ork or a troll). Allowing
for that, a BMI means something like "relative to a human's density".
So yes, those numbers say that trolls are hollow. However, a troll
shape isn't likely to look much like an elf shape! I think that trolls
should be heavier (look at the size of them in the artwork!), and orks
could probably stand to be a tad heavier as well.

As for fitting into a box, you'd fit easily. Recall that the human body
is mostly water, and water has a convenient density of 1.0 L/kg. So,
the average human would have a volume of 70L (blended). A 1m^3 box will
hold 10x10x10 L = 1000 L. The average human would then fill a 1m x 1m x
0.07 m box. :-)

This means that the entire population of the world would easily fit in a
box 1km x 1km x 0.5km. And they say the earth is overpopulated. ;-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:32:42 -0600
bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
/
/ > Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.
/ >
/ > ((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.
/ >
/ > If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
/ > healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.
/ >
/ > Remember, this is for an average person.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/ > I'd do it myself, but I accidently deleted the post with the heights
/ > and weights.
/
/ All this is gonna say is that elves are thin, humans are
/ average, orks and dwarves are fat and trolls are morbidly obese (yes
/ this is a medical term).

The BMI formula above is used for average people, not the highly
athletic or weight lifters. I'm just curious to see what kind of BMI's
the average stats for metahumans will be. And trolls are damn tall for
their weight. They might come out with a low BMI.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:41:45 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:
>Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.

How about I convert the equation to metric (less conversion). :-)

>((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.

So, it works out to approximately (Weight)/(Height*Height) with Weight
and Height in kg and m, respectively. :-)

>If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
>healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.

Dwarf: 54kg 1.2m 38kg/m^2
Human: 70kg 1.7m 24kg/m^2
Elf: 72kg 1.9m 20kg/m^2
Ork: 95kg 1.9m 26kg/m^2
Troll: 225kg 2.8m 29kg/m^2

>Remember, this is for an average person.
>
>I'd do it myself, but I accidently deleted the post with the heights
>and weights.

Which I have thoughtfully provided in tabular form. ;-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:25:40 EST
> The big assumption made (AFAICT) is that each race has the same build
^^^^^^^^
I don't know what's worse, that you said this or that I understood
it.

> the average human would have a volume of 70L (blended). A 1m^3 box will
^^^^^^^^^
I KNOW it's worse that you said this. ugh. :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 15
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:47:46 -0400
> David Buehrer wrote:
> >Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.
>
> How about I convert the equation to metric (less conversion). :-)
>
> >((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average
> Human.
>
> So, it works out to approximately (Weight)/(Height*Height) with Weight
> and Height in kg and m, respectively. :-)
>
> >If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
> >healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.
>
> Dwarf: 54kg 1.2m 38kg/m^2
> Human: 70kg 1.7m 24kg/m^2
> Elf: 72kg 1.9m 20kg/m^2
> Ork: 95kg 1.9m 26kg/m^2
> Troll: 225kg 2.8m 29kg/m^2
>
>
24 kilograms per square meter? What the hell is this,
the weight of my skin? Do you have to smear the given races over a
parking lot to determine this? Now that I'm thinking about it what the
hell does this mean anyway?
Message no. 16
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:07:22 -0400
bryan.covington wrote:
>> >Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.
>>
>> How about I convert the equation to metric (less conversion). :-)
>>
>> >((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average
>> Human.
[snip]
>>
> 24 kilograms per square meter? What the hell is this,
>the weight of my skin? Do you have to smear the given races over a
>parking lot to determine this? Now that I'm thinking about it what the
>hell does this mean anyway?

Not 24 kilograms per square meter, but 24 kilograms per meter of height
squared. To calculate the density of an individual, you want mass
divided by the volume. The volume can be approximated by means of a
box enclosing the individual (height x width x depth). If you assume
that the width and depth don't change at all, you can use mass/height
as a comparative measure (ie measuring one person relative to another).
Height is a good choice here because a) it's the biggest number and b)
it's the most variable.

It looks like this equation is meant to be more accurate by assuming
a) the depth of a person (back to front) is pretty constant (or is
reflected in their mass) and b) the width of a person is proportional
to their height. So, it's a comparative measure that basically means
"If you had an averagely proportionned skeleton, and it was scaled
to the average size, how much fat would be hanging off them bones?" :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 17
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:21:11 -0400
> > 24 kilograms per square meter? What the hell is this,
> >the weight of my skin? Do you have to smear the given races over a
> >parking lot to determine this? Now that I'm thinking about it what
> the
> >hell does this mean anyway?
>
Sorry about that...

> Not 24 kilograms per square meter, but 24 kilograms per meter of
> height
> squared. To calculate the density of an individual, you want mass
> divided by the volume. The volume can be approximated by means of a
> box enclosing the individual (height x width x depth). If you assume
> that the width and depth don't change at all, you can use mass/height
> as a comparative measure (ie measuring one person relative to
> another).
> Height is a good choice here because a) it's the biggest number and b)
> it's the most variable.
>
Ahh...I see what you're getting at. I think you missed
something, but I see where you're going. Problem is, while this works
great for comparing humans to humans, it means nothing when comparing
different metatypes. Since the bulk is distributed differently in
various metas. In fact this whole thing is based on width and depth not
being different. I am wider than some of my friends. I am taller than
almost all of them. I have nearly double the mass of a friend who is the
same height, do you think our widths and depths are the same?

> It looks like this equation is meant to be more accurate by assuming
> a) the depth of a person (back to front) is pretty constant (or is
> reflected in their mass) and b) the width of a person is proportional
> to their height. So, it's a comparative measure that basically means
> "If you had an averagely proportionned skeleton, and it was scaled
> to the average size, how much fat would be hanging off them bones?"
> :-)
>
I understand but I don't see what human fat levels have
to do with metahuman mass comparisons.
Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:55:37 EST
> > >If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
> > >healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.
> >
> > Dwarf: 54kg 1.2m 38kg/m^2
> > Human: 70kg 1.7m 24kg/m^2
> > Elf: 72kg 1.9m 20kg/m^2
> > Ork: 95kg 1.9m 26kg/m^2
> > Troll: 225kg 2.8m 29kg/m^2
> >
> >
> 24 kilograms per square meter? What the hell is this,
> the weight of my skin? Do you have to smear the given races over a
> parking lot to determine this? Now that I'm thinking about it what the
> hell does this mean anyway?

It's a general case measure of the "fat quantity" of an individual.
U.S. health instiutions are starting to recommend it as a general
indicator of weight-health. Consider it a condensed version of
weight-height charts.

Didn't BMI involve a "fudge-factor" for females? or was that only
the earlier versions the media bandied about?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 19
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:51:42 -0400
Once upon a time, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote;

>This means that the entire population of the world would easily fit in a
>box 1km x 1km x 0.5km. And they say the earth is overpopulated. ;-)

Damn this contest just gets harder and harder.
<looks for a bigger chainsaw>

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:57:21 -0600
Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer wrote:
/ >Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.
/
/ How about I convert the equation to metric (less conversion). :-)

Well, okay :)

/ >((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.
/
/ Dwarf: 54kg 1.2m 38kg/m^2
^^
Jesus H. Criminy. What the heck are these guys made of?

/ Human: 70kg 1.7m 24kg/m^2
/ Elf: 72kg 1.9m 20kg/m^2
/ Ork: 95kg 1.9m 26kg/m^2
/ Troll: 225kg 2.8m 29kg/m^2

That's about what I expeted.

bryan.covington wrote:
>
>I understand but I don't see what human fat levels have
>to do with metahuman mass comparisons.

A human the size and weight of a dwarf will be fat (unless they're a
serious weight lifter). I know that dwarves aren't fat. So I can
assume that they have a lot of thick muscle and very solid bones.

Elves are thin. No suprise.

Orcs aren't fat either, so that slightly high BMI probably comes from
muscle.

With trolls it's most definitly muscle. Or, trolls might actually
carry more fat on their frame than humans (what are their dermal plates
made out of anyways? :)

It's just something fun to speculate on.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 21
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:20:09 +0100
And verily, did Mike Elkins hastily scribble thusly...
|No, No, No. Density is mass per volume, as in kg/m^3, not kg/m.
|
|Correcting for this, the new numbers are:
|
|Dwarf: 31.25 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.9
|Elf: 22.16 kg/m^3 BMI: 0.64
|Human: 34.60 BMI: 1.0 (baseline)
|Ork: 13.85 BMI: 0.4
|Troll: 10.25 BMI: 0.3
|
|I don't think these numbers look very good.

But isn't that for the density of a cube?
I don't recall many cube shaped trolls recently...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:24:28 +0100
And verily, did bryan.covington@****.COM hastily scribble thusly...
| Actually I think I found the problem here. We need
|volume to figure out the density as you calculated it. We don't know the
|volume of a troll, unless you want to shove one into a grinder so we can
|take a reading or two. We only know the height and weight of an
|irregularly shaped object.

That's a rather.... drastic way of measuring volume, innit?
That's wrong with the old Eureka method?

You weigh the troll, and then sedate him so you can force him into a bath.
(MEasure the amount of water displaced, and voila, volume....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 23
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:34:37 -0400
Once upon a time, Spike wrote;

>You weigh the troll, and then sedate him so you can force him into a bath.
>(Measure the amount of water displaced, and voila, volume....

It's a trog, you are going to have to make adjustments for the dirt on
him. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

CRY HAVOC! And let slip the flames of SR3

I am MC23
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:50:23 +0100
And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Once upon a time, Spike wrote;
|
|>You weigh the troll, and then sedate him so you can force him into a bath.
|>(Measure the amount of water displaced, and voila, volume....
|
|It's a trog, you are going to have to make adjustments for the dirt on
|him. B>]#

OK, so you give him a REAL bath before the measurement one....
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 25
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:53:21 -0400
On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 17:34:37 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:

>>You weigh the troll, and then sedate him so you can force him into a
bath.
>>(Measure the amount of water displaced, and voila, volume....
>
>It's a trog, you are going to have to make adjustments for the dirt on
>him. B>]#

Oh sure, Mr. Speciesist. And you'd have to double those adjustments for
an ork, right?

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
"I take regular baths. Monthly is regular."

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 26
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 21:02:22 -0400
On 11 Aug 98, at 14:20, Brett Borger wrote:

> -=SwiftOne=-
> In other words, you remembered their height, but not their Gurth, er,
> girth. :)

Gurth here (once more)... I just have only one thing to say about
this:

TTTTT H H W W AAA PPPP !
T H H W W A A P P !
T HHHHH W W W AAAAA PPPP !
T H H W W W A A P
T H H W W A A P !

And like it!

:)
=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 27
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:01:00 EDT
In a message dated 98-08-11 16:56:59 EDT, you write:

> / Dwarf: 54kg 1.2m 38kg/m^2
> ^^
> Jesus H. Criminy. What the heck are these guys made of?

Dwarves apparently have a muscle density that rivals that of reptiles
(according to the SRCo). Ever pick up a lizard? A lot heavier than he looks,
given the spindily frame and the lean construction. That's because the little
bugger is strong for his size... nowehere near an Ant (capitalized just for
fun), but still strong.

Nexx
Message no. 28
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:00:25 -0700
At 16:50 -0000 8/11/98, K is the Symbol wrote:
>In a message dated 8/11/1998 9:43:23 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>justin@******.NET writes:
>
>> # Average Weights
>> # Dwarf 54 kg
>> # Elf 72 kg
>> # Human 70 kg
>> # Ork 95 kg
>> # Troll 225 kg
>> my god!
>> that is almost 1/4 of a tonne
>>
>Yeah, and your point is??? Trolls are big people, the height table alone puts
>them at a significant distance to be measured at.
>
>(the following is repeated here with FASA permission, as was the above, but is
>not in any way, shape, or form and intent of copyright challenge)
>
>Dwarf : 1.2 meters
>Elf : 1.9 meters
>Human : 1.7 meters
>Ork : 1.9 meters
>Troll : 2.8 meters
>

Well...Hmmm. Giant - the WCW Pro Wrestler, is around 7', or a little more,
weighs 540 pounds (that's a 1/4 ton, yes?), and moves about like I'd
expect a troll too. So at 2.8 meters, for Troll's to have that weight...
they'd have to be somewhat lean, wouldn't they? Well, that's just a
rough off the cuff comparison.

-Rob (who's tired. Time to watch last night's RAW is WAR. Give me a
HELL YEAH!) :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Nesius | Forget that polygon/second crap. Angband beats all
nesius@******.com | "next-gen" games, and does so w/ ASCII characters.
Message no. 29
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0000
and thus did David Buehrer speak on 11 Aug 98 at 13:12:

> Try this. Convert height and weight to inches and pounds.
>
> ((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.
>
> If the number is less than 20, the person is thin; 20-25 equals
> healthy; 25-30 equals fat; 30+ is obese.
>
> Remember, this is for an average person.

Querrenell (sp?) index, don't bother converting to feet and pounds
(you sneaky yanks, you don't get away from using metric this time! :)
it's
weight(kg)/(lenght(m)^2).

Same index number in the end result. Problem is that it doesn't take
in account your bone structure which varies between small - medium -
large (got some nice names for them, but I only remember mesomorph).
That chances your allowable weight considerably (IIRC plus or minus
10%). I figure that meta-humans need their own tables, since their
bone / muscle mass is completely different from ours (with elves and
maybe orks being fairly close to human). In fact the largest man
ever was around 2.40m IIRC and he couldn't support his body and had
to helped around all the time (kinda funny to see how he leans with
his hands on the heads of his helpers).

Now if a troll would stand a chance of moving, he needs a much
stronger bone system and muscles just to keep his body working.
Added to that are his superhuman strength and dermal plating and you
got something that has maybe 150% to 200% the muscle and bone
mass of a human of comparable size (body frame that's extra^4
large). Now I know that muscles constitute up to 40% of the body
weight, body fat 15% for men and 25% for women and if someone has the
values for the skeleton you can easily calculate the average weight
of a troll by multiplying muscle and skeletal weights by 1.5 or 2
and leave the fat and the other organs the same and then multiply the
whole sum by the length difference.

I don't think it will match much with the values that FASA gives
since the troll is far to light.
Message no. 30
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:31:53 -0600
At 00:00 8/12/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Well...Hmmm. Giant - the WCW Pro Wrestler, is around 7', or a little more,
>weighs 540 pounds (that's a 1/4 ton, yes?), and moves about like I'd
>expect a troll too. So at 2.8 meters, for Troll's to have that weight...
>they'd have to be somewhat lean, wouldn't they? Well, that's just a
>rough off the cuff comparison.

I'm not sure if Paul White (The Giant) actually weighs 540lbs. There's
always a tendancy to exaggerate in pro wrestling, and I think this is one
of those times. He's somewhere in the mid 400lb range, I would think.

Giant also moves Better than I would think a troll would, as a trolly has
those long arms that the Giant really doesn't have. (He has long arms, but
they're in proportion..)

I think comparing a troll to big present day humans is bound to be kind
of.. off, because anyone that size nowadays usually doesn't have his weight
distributed like a troll.

>-Rob (who's tired. Time to watch last night's RAW is WAR. Give me a
>HELL YEAH!) :)

Hell <yawn> Poor show. And they lost in the ratings. :/ (4.65 to 4.55).

-Adam J
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
Message no. 31
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:07:25 -0400
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:31:53 -0600 Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA> writes:

>I'm not sure if Paul White (The Giant) actually weighs 540lbs. There's
>always a tendancy to exaggerate in pro wrestling, and I think this is
one
>of those times. He's somewhere in the mid 400lb range, I would think.

Actually, he is 500+. To be honest, it's not really that healthy for
someone of his size to be that big. Be hell on his knees in a few years.
Look what happened to Andre.

>Giant also moves Better than I would think a troll would, as a trolly
has
>those long arms that the Giant really doesn't have. (He has long arms,
but
>they're in proportion..)

I think trolls have slightly shorter legs, porpotionately speaking, than
humans do. This would tend to produce, if nothing else, an awkward gait
that humans couldn't easily match. Normal trolls would also be fairly
slow compared to the average human. Until they get with arm's reach,
that is.

>I think comparing a troll to big present day humans is bound to be kind
>of.. off, because anyone that size nowadays usually doesn't have his
weight
>distributed like a troll.

If someone does, I pity the fool. It looks to me like they've got most
of their mass up in their shoulders to help support their arms. Makes
'em strong, I figure. The guy in question would be an awkward SOB.

>Hell <yawn> Poor show. And they lost in the ratings. :/ (4.65 to
4.55).

What? You didn't care for the D-X split?

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
"Oh, you didn't know? Well yo' ass better call somebody!!"

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 32
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:12:33 +0000
> / >((Weight x 703)/Height)/Height = Body Mass Index for an average Human.
> /
> / Dwarf: 54kg 1.2m 38kg/m^2
> ^^
> Jesus H. Criminy. What the heck are these guys made of?
>
> / Human: 70kg 1.7m 24kg/m^2
> / Elf: 72kg 1.9m 20kg/m^2
> / Ork: 95kg 1.9m 26kg/m^2
> / Troll: 225kg 2.8m 29kg/m^2

We have to remember that the BMI is designed around the human
standard...the hole point of having a range of values (e.g.20-25 is
good, etc) is because the system is really just a fudge factor
semi-normalized over the height/weight chart. It falls apart at the
extreme ends (which trolls&dwarves represent).

If, however, you follow the "muscle and bone density" crowd (I
don't), you must remember one major effect this would have: Dwarves
would sink like a rock. Humans have a density of just slightly less
that water, which is what lets us swim and float. Within a small
range of this density, swimming is very possible. If you are arguing
that a dwarf is X times more dense in muscle and bone than a human,
then that dwarf is X times more likely to sink.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 33
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:18:24 -0600
Brett Borger wrote:
/
/ If, however, you follow the "muscle and bone density" crowd (I
/ don't), you must remember one major effect this would have: Dwarves
/ would sink like a rock. Humans have a density of just slightly less
/ that water, which is what lets us swim and float. Within a small
/ range of this density, swimming is very possible. If you are arguing
/ that a dwarf is X times more dense in muscle and bone than a human,
/ then that dwarf is X times more likely to sink.

Actually, it's a simple matter of weight and water displacement. If
you displace more water than you weigh, you float. If you displace
less water than you weigh, you sink. (Gotta love the Magic School Bus
:)

It's hard to say whether dwarves have a hard time swimming. They are
short, but they're broad. IMHO they displace more water than they
weigh.

Elves might have an even harder time of it. They're portrayed as being
very lean, in which case they would displace less water and sink like
an.. elf ;)

Trolls might float the best of all the (meta)humans. Their size
probably displaces a lot more water then they weigh.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 34
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:53:30 -0400
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, David Buehrer wrote:

->Brett Borger wrote:
->
->Actually, it's a simple matter of weight and water displacement. If
->you displace more water than you weigh, you float. If you displace
->less water than you weigh, you sink. (Gotta love the Magic School Bus
->:)

Since our bodies are made out of mostly water, and the parts that
aren't water are usually lighter than water, I'd be nice and say any of
the races float (unless the troll just got through eating a motorcycle,
for instance). Bear in mind the number of "hollow" organs we all have in
our body.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 35
From: Duncan McNeillBurton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:56:15 -0400
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, David Foster wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, David Buehrer wrote:
>
> ->Brett Borger wrote:
> ->
> ->Actually, it's a simple matter of weight and water displacement. If
> ->you displace more water than you weigh, you float. If you displace
> ->less water than you weigh, you sink. (Gotta love the Magic School Bus
> ->:)
>
> Since our bodies are made out of mostly water, and the parts that
> aren't water are usually lighter than water, I'd be nice and say any of
> the races float (unless the troll just got through eating a motorcycle,
> for instance). Bear in mind the number of "hollow" organs we all have in
> our body.

I don't know about all races floating...I'm 6'2", and about 165 and I
sink like a rock, so I doubt that the average elf is going to bob along
merrily, unless they happen to have bird-like hollow bones...

Who knows...maybe I just have an ineptitude in swimming

*shrug*

But in all likelihood, I could see orks and humans as naturally buoyant,
but trolls have the extra dermal bone deposits to weigh them down, and
dwarves have the superdense musculature, while elves are just too lithe.
I will refrain from commenting on the folks from SRC, since I...well, I'm
pretty sure they've ceased to exist until the next Compendium rolls
around.

> Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
> the difficult I do all day long,
> the impossible only during the week,
> and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....
>
> Now tell me, what was your problem?

My belly button is too deep, and it glows in the dark...

Later-

Duncan
Message no. 36
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:00:23 -0300
David Buehrer wrote:
>
>
> Actually, it's a simple matter of weight and water displacement. If
> you displace more water than you weigh, you float. If you displace
> less water than you weigh, you sink. (Gotta love the Magic School Bus
> :)
>
> It's hard to say whether dwarves have a hard time swimming. They are
> short, but they're broad. IMHO they displace more water than they
> weigh.
>
> Elves might have an even harder time of it. They're portrayed as being
> very lean, in which case they would displace less water and sink like
> an.. elf ;)
>
> Trolls might float the best of all the (meta)humans. Their size
> probably displaces a lot more water then they weigh.


E= Vd * Dd * g

Since we're talking character Physics, here... :).

Vd is volume displaced (in m^3). Dd is the density of the
displaced liquid (in kg/m^3). g is gravity's acceleration (m/s^2).
E is the force exerted by the liquid you dive in, wich pushes you up
(in newtons, or N).
If E is bigger that your body weight (also in N), you float. If
it's smaller you sink. I don't know if I got the formula right, but
the thing about E is still valid.

Figure something out in volume. You can't measure a troll mainly
because it doesn't really exist (at least not yet :) )... The
density of water is always 10^3 (using the IS), and the
acceleration of gravity is aproximately 10 (also with IS). If a troll
masses 250kg, it weights 2500N, so E's gotta be bigger than that for it
to swim... As he has a big volume, I think he can do it.

Bira
Message no. 37
From: Jon Szeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Character Physics
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:51:07 EDT
In a message dated 98-08-13 13:46:41 EDT, fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> ->Brett Borger wrote:
> ->
> ->Actually, it's a simple matter of weight and water displacement. If
> ->you displace more water than you weigh, you float. If you displace
> ->less water than you weigh, you sink. (Gotta love the Magic School Bus
> ->:)
>
> Since our bodies are made out of mostly water, and the parts that
> aren't water are usually lighter than water, I'd be nice and say any of
> the races float (unless the troll just got through eating a motorcycle,
> for instance). Bear in mind the number of "hollow" organs we all have in
> our body.
>

Actually, IRL humans tend to straddle the fence when it comes to buoyancy in
water. Some people float, some people sink, and some people are neutrally
buoyant (neither floating nor sinking). IIRC from my scuba classes, it depends
on a number of different factors, such as gender (females float better than
males), physical condition (fat people float better than muscular ones), and
ethnic race (i.e., black, Caucasian, Asian, native American, etc.).

IMO dwarves and humans can go one way or the other, depending on the above
mentioned conditions. (Based on SR2 height/weight charts, I "guess-timated"
that dwarves would have roughly the same overall specific gravity as humans.)
Elves I guessed as tending to float better (taller yet roughly the same weight
as humans), while orks and trolls sink like rocks. (Orks are about the same
height yet much heavier, probably due to all that muscle. And with all those
calcified buildups under the skin and super-dense muscle, how could trolls
ever possibly float?)

All of this, BTW, is covered in Cyberpirates (in the game rules for underwater
adventuring in the back of the book), which makes it kind-of official. (Of
course, whether or not you share the same assessment is another matter....)

-- Jon

Further Reading

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