Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:53:26 -0500
I've got a player who's looking at one of the racial variants in SRComp
(specifically, he's looking at playing a Night Elf). With the new chargen
rules in SR3, and the higher power levels of the variant races, I plan on
using the priority system in SR3 and upping the priority for the variant
races 1 step. For instance, a troll in SR3 is Priority D; a fomori would be
Priority C. An elf in SR3 is Priority C; a Night Elf would be Priority B.
Full magician priority would remain at A; priority for elf and dwarf
adepts/aspected magicians would be at C.

Does this sound equitable and reasonable to you guys?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:54:37 -0500
----------
> From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
>
> I've got a player who's looking at one of the racial variants in SRComp
> (specifically, he's looking at playing a Night Elf). With the new
chargen
> rules in SR3, and the higher power levels of the variant races, I plan
on
> using the priority system in SR3 and upping the priority for the variant
> races 1 step. For instance, a troll in SR3 is Priority D; a fomori
would be
> Priority C. An elf in SR3 is Priority C; a Night Elf would be Priority
B.
> Full magician priority would remain at A; priority for elf and dwarf
> adepts/aspected magicians would be at C.
>
> Does this sound equitable and reasonable to you guys?

I simply ruled that all metavariants were B, but it sounds good to me.
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:41:41 -0500
>> ...I plan on using the priority system in SR3 and upping the
>> priority for the variant races 1 step.

<snippage, but it was my message to start with so who cares? ;)>

>> Does this sound equitable and reasonable to you guys?
>
>I simply ruled that all metavariants were B, but it sounds good to me.

I considered that, but wanted to keep the basic flavor of the SR3 chargen
priorities intact and still make the variants a little more expensive. I'll
try it like this for a bit and see how things go. If it sucks rat juice
through a straw, I'll try your way for a bit.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:38:15 EDT
In a message dated 9/11/1998 9:55:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

>
> Does this sound equitable and reasonable to you guys?

I snipped the suggestions you made for SRComp racial variations and what you
feel their costs would be in the new SR3 construction outline. Overall, you
are looking pretty good IMO :)

-K
Message no. 5
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:22:27 EDT
I still do not understand why the racial variants (if balanced out or even
given the same stats as a "regular") are a higher priority. The entire
"balance out population rarity by raising priorities" just doesn't seem
worthwhile to me.
Many (well some, I didn't really count) did not like the merit/flaw system
because it gave gaming bonuses for role-playing flaws, well this is giving a
gaming flaw for a role-playing choice (as I said, assuming you balance out the
stats)
So if I want my dwarf to be shorter and more "child-like" and look just like
a gnome, it costs a higher priority? (This rant brought to you by the new
Tunnelrat EOD gnome I am currently making :-)
And another peeve, Satyrs have a -1 quickness BECAUSE they have hooves?
'cuz as every shadowrunner knows, hooved animals are the slowest (and since
quickness is also overall, that mean sthe hooves slow his hand as well :-)
Message no. 6
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:25:08 -0500
----------
> From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
>
> I still do not understand why the racial variants (if balanced out or
even
> given the same stats as a "regular") are a higher priority. The entire
> "balance out population rarity by raising priorities" just doesn't seem
> worthwhile to me.

Actually, if dwarves instead of elves were priority C, that would be
precisely what we have. However, I see it slightly differently. When you
get right down to it, there are more advantages, number-wise, to playing
an elf (which has absolutely no negatives in terms of numbers) or a troll
(which is basically a pumped-up ork). I never saw anyone play an Ork,
because trolls were everything they wanted... big, strong, and
stupid-looking. Few would play dwarves for the same reason (plus the
enculturated "tall is good", which is evident everywhere but
construction), and if they did, it was with some very specific character
ideas in mind. I think I was the only person (within our group, natch) to
ever play a dwarf "just because".

> And another peeve, Satyrs have a -1 quickness BECAUSE they have
hooves?
> 'cuz as every shadowrunner knows, hooved animals are the slowest (and
since
> quickness is also overall, that mean sthe hooves slow his hand as well
:-)

Well, I agree on this point. OTOH, IIRC, the bipedal form is really
poorly suited to hooves, since it really concentrates all of the body
weight on a really small area, making balance a bit more difficult (ever
wonder why tall people generally have bigger feet?).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:59:53 -0500
>I still do not understand why the racial variants (if balanced out or even
>given the same stats as a "regular") are a higher priority. The entire
>"balance out population rarity by raising priorities" just doesn't seem
>worthwhile to me.

I have a couple of rationales for doing it that way.

1. I want those variants to be *rare*. Making a player pay a higher price
facilitates that, in my experience.

2. The variant races are almost uniformly more powerful, even if just
slightly, than the base race that they sprang from. I think to get the
advantages, the player should have to pay a higher price. This also ties
into Rationale 1, above.

Seems to be working so far.

>Many (well some, I didn't really count) did not like the merit/flaw
>system because it gave gaming bonuses for role-playing flaws...

That particular argument never flew with me, though, since that sort of
thing (edges and flaws) have been part of RPGs for a decade or more. GURPS,
Top Secret, James Bond 007, and probably half a dozen more that I can't
think of off the top of my head, had such things and it didn't affect game
play.

>...well this is giving a gaming flaw for a role-playing choice (as I
>said, assuming you balance out the stats)

No, they're paying for the higher bonuses and such.

>So if I want my dwarf to be shorter and more "child-like" and look just
>like a gnome, it costs a higher priority?

If you just want to play a light-weight dwarf, probably not; we could work
something out, I'm sure. If you want to play a gnome, in my game, yeah, the
priority is going to be higher.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:45:24 -0700
: And another peeve, Satyrs have a -1 quickness BECAUSE they have
hooves?
:'cuz as every shadowrunner knows, hooved animals are the slowest (and
since
:quickness is also overall, that mean sthe hooves slow his hand as well
:-)
:

Perhaps that should be +1 athletics / dodge TN's when not on soft
ground. A biped with hooves would be like Bambi on ice in most urban
environments. That could aversely affect whole body balance, which would
justify a more global effect like a quickness penalty, even. But your
right, for some things, it does not make sense. Also, they could
reasonably have a "4" running mod and be better at jumping; that's what
I'd suggest for digitigrade cyberlegs, for example.

Mongoose
Message no. 9
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 17:57:48 -0400
Mongoose wrote:
>
> : And another peeve, Satyrs have a -1 quickness BECAUSE they have
> hooves?
> :'cuz as every shadowrunner knows, hooved animals are the slowest (and
> since
> :quickness is also overall, that mean sthe hooves slow his hand as well
> :-)
>
> Perhaps that should be +1 athletics / dodge TN's when not on soft
> ground. A biped with hooves would be like Bambi on ice in most urban
> environments. That could aversely affect whole body balance, which would
> justify a more global effect like a quickness penalty, even. But your
> right, for some things, it does not make sense. Also, they could
> reasonably have a "4" running mod and be better at jumping; that's what
> I'd suggest for digitigrade cyberlegs, for example.
>
> Mongoose


Well, from study I've done, I would think that, with proper shoes
(horseshoes in hard rubber, maybe, for the urban(e) satyr?), the penalty
could be negated. Also, anything born with hooves wouldn't suffer a
penalty, I don't think. Like Mongoose mentioned, I thing the hooves
would make someone/something damn good at jumping around, climbing, etc.
Even on hard ground. Although I'm not totally sure about running speed.
THAT might take a negative modifier...


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 10
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:25:31 EDT
In a message dated 9/13/98 10:02:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >...well this is giving a gaming flaw for a role-playing choice (as I
> >said, assuming you balance out the stats)
>
> No, they're paying for the higher bonuses and such.
As I said assuming you balance the stats so there is no overall bonus. Most of
the races do not have an overall bonus anyway.
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:13:44 -0700
:I'm not totally sure about running speed.
:THAT might take a negative modifier...


I figured running would be faster because those legs are (usually)
designed for running; they are hinged in three places, allowing a longer
forward reach to the stride and a generally better "bounce" to the gait.

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:46:03 -0400
On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Jett wrote:

->Mongoose wrote:
->>
->> : And another peeve, Satyrs have a -1 quickness BECAUSE they have
->> hooves?
->> :'cuz as every shadowrunner knows, hooved animals are the slowest (and
->> since
->> :quickness is also overall, that mean sthe hooves slow his hand as well
->> :-)
->>
->> Perhaps that should be +1 athletics / dodge TN's when not on soft
->> ground. A biped with hooves would be like Bambi on ice in most urban
->> environments. That could aversely affect whole body balance, which would
->> justify a more global effect like a quickness penalty, even. But your
->> right, for some things, it does not make sense. Also, they could
->> reasonably have a "4" running mod and be better at jumping; that's
what
->> I'd suggest for digitigrade cyberlegs, for example.
->>
->> Mongoose
->
->
->Well, from study I've done, I would think that, with proper shoes
->(horseshoes in hard rubber, maybe, for the urban(e) satyr?), the penalty
->could be negated. Also, anything born with hooves wouldn't suffer a
->penalty, I don't think. Like Mongoose mentioned, I thing the hooves
->would make someone/something damn good at jumping around, climbing, etc.
->Even on hard ground. Although I'm not totally sure about running speed.
->THAT might take a negative modifier...

I've never noticed that horses have a problem running, but they
have four legs too.... how about removing the quickness penalty altogether
since they did it to the dwarves anyway? Kinda makes the debate
easier....

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 13
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:12:33 EDT
In a message dated 9/13/1998 9:23:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.COM writes:

> And another peeve, Satyrs have a -1 quickness BECAUSE they have hooves?
> 'cuz as every shadowrunner knows, hooved animals are the slowest (and since
> quickness is also overall, that mean sthe hooves slow his hand as well :-)
>
Okay then, how about this? Their movement multiplier is reduced by one for
their base metatype?

-K
Message no. 14
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Companion Race Variants
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:45:49 EDT
In a message dated 9/14/98 4:37:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

>
> I've never noticed that horses have a problem running, but they
> have four legs too.... how about removing the quickness penalty altogether
> since they did it to the dwarves anyway? Kinda makes the debate
> easier....
well, they are orcs, not dwarves, but same point, nay? I redid a lot of the
variants and leave them as the same priority as the main race. I did away with
Dryads and Cyclops (hey, I know plenty of shooters that close an eye, or
squint the non-dominant eye, they don't seem to have a penalty)
I also do not much like the entire idea of satyrs being Orcs (or was that
orks? :-) but I like Satyrs and do not want them to be an animal.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [SR3] Companion Race Variants, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!