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Message no. 1
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:52:13 -0700
Err ... I didn't write the stuff you've attributed to me.

>> Here's a reccomendation to anyone GMing a "I'm the baddest"
Mage:
> Narrow hallway and one grenade (GM's choice of type). I don't
>care what barrier they have up, it's not going to take the 20+ power level
>that grenade will put out, and grenades are a lot cheaper than mages.

When bad guy tosses grenade, street samurai goes over, picks it up, throws
it back. Page 118, SR3 "All grenades go off in the next Combat Phase of the
character making the grenade attack. If the character has no more Combat
Phases in that Combat Turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of the
next Initiative Pass. If the grenade is launched in the last Initiative
Pass of a Combat Turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of that Combat
Turn."

Heck, the magician might be able to do it.

This actually parallels a WWII story where a bunch of marines in an assault
boat were repeatedly attacked by thrown grenades. Fortunately, one of them
happened to be a major league pitcher, who threw the grenades back with
unerring accuracy, until the last grenade blew his arm off [the enemy
learned their lesson and waited before throwing].


>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 2
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:34:23 -0300
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> Err ... I didn't write the stuff you've attributed to me.
>
> >> Here's a reccomendation to anyone GMing a "I'm the baddest"
Mage:
> > Narrow hallway and one grenade (GM's choice of type). I don't
> >care what barrier they have up, it's not going to take the 20+ power level
> >that grenade will put out, and grenades are a lot cheaper than mages.
>
> When bad guy tosses grenade, street samurai goes over, picks it up, throws
> it back.

> Heck, the magician might be able to do it.
>

Don't minigrenades explode on impact? Use a launcher, and they won't
pick it up... It's still cheaper than a mage :) .

Bira
Message no. 3
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:17:09 -0700
> Don't minigrenades explode on impact? Use a launcher, and they won't
>pick it up... It's still cheaper than a mage :) .

I don't think so ... hmmm ... if you can find a reference to this in SR3,
I'd like to see it. ;-)

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:32:09 +1000
Adam Getchell writes:
> When bad guy tosses grenade, street samurai goes over, picks it up, throws
> it back. Page 118, SR3 "All grenades go off in the next Combat
> Phase of the
> character making the grenade attack. If the character has no more Combat
> Phases in that Combat Turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of the
> next Initiative Pass. If the grenade is launched in the last Initiative
> Pass of a Combat Turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of that Combat
> Turn."

[Story snipped]

SR version of the story: Person (with two or more actions that round,
obviously) pulls pin on grenade, and delays his turn. Just before his second
round, his delayed action allows him to throw the grenade. Sam tries to go
pick it up, and turns into Chunky Salsa.

As for mini-grenades, use the grenade launcher range-finder link. The
grenade will explode the instant it has travelled the distance to the
target.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 5
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:23:17 -0300
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> > Don't minigrenades explode on impact? Use a launcher, and they won't
> >pick it up... It's still cheaper than a mage :) .
>
> I don't think so ... hmmm ... if you can find a reference to this in SR3,
> I'd like to see it. ;-)
>
> > Bira


I don't have SR3... But SR2 says grenades have a minimum range of
5 meters because they only arm after that distance. I would suppose
they detonate on impact once armed, since it must fly fast. If there
was enough time to pick a mini-grenade and throw it back, there also
would be enough time to go to a safe distance after firing it, right?

Bira
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:47:09 -0700
>Adam Getchell wrote:
> I don't have SR3... But SR2 says grenades have a minimum range of
>5 meters because they only arm after that distance. I would suppose
>they detonate on impact once armed, since it must fly fast. If there
>was enough time to pick a mini-grenade and throw it back, there also
>would be enough time to go to a safe distance after firing it, right?

Ah, referring to SR3. That makes the above argument irrelevant, because now
grenades have a delay between throwing/firing them and when they explode.
This was not true in SR2 except as an optional rule in FOF.

Note the [SR3] in the subject line...

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 7
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:00:19 EDT
In a message dated 8/20/98 12:47:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> Ah, referring to SR3. That makes the above argument irrelevant, because now
> grenades have a delay between throwing/firing them and when they explode.
> This was not true in SR2 except as an optional rule in FOF.

Actually Hand grenades can be set to explode on impact according to the
handgrenade rules prsented on page 282 of the SR3 book.

"They may be set to explode on Impact or at anytime from 2 seconds to 2
minutes"

Minigrenades should also explode on impact since they are armed when fired.
IMHO

-Bandit
Message no. 8
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:09:16 -0400
> Minigrenades should also explode on impact since they are armed when
> fired.
> IMHO
>
This is specifically stated in the rules (I know in SR3,
not sure about others). They arm 5 meters from the launcher. Which opens
up a neat idea of shooting someone in the gut with a grenade at 3m. It
won't go off but it will knock the wind out of them and scare the piss
out of 'em.
Message no. 9
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:37:45 -0400
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

->> Minigrenades should also explode on impact since they are armed when
->> fired.
->> IMHO
->>
-> This is specifically stated in the rules (I know in SR3,
->not sure about others). They arm 5 meters from the launcher. Which opens
->up a neat idea of shooting someone in the gut with a grenade at 3m. It
->won't go off but it will knock the wind out of them and scare the piss
->out of 'em.

It will, however, arm itself inside the body of the individual,
wouldn't it? When the grenade is fired, it only has 5 meters of "air
time" to arm itself. Since this is a relatively short period of time, you
shoot it at the guy, it either enters his body or bounces off (probably
the latter) and arms itself in midair. When it hits the ground... BOOM!

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:53:21 -0400
> -> This is specifically stated in the rules (I know in
> SR3,
> ->not sure about others). They arm 5 meters from the launcher. Which
> opens
> ->up a neat idea of shooting someone in the gut with a grenade at 3m.
> It
> ->won't go off but it will knock the wind out of them and scare the
> piss
> ->out of 'em.
>
> It will, however, arm itself inside the body of the
> individual,
> wouldn't it? When the grenade is fired, it only has 5 meters of "air
> time" to arm itself. Since this is a relatively short period of time,
> you
> shoot it at the guy, it either enters his body or bounces off
> (probably
> the latter) and arms itself in midair. When it hits the ground...
> BOOM!
>
I'm thinking that it wouldn't do anything. I'm guessing
that there would have to be either a radio link to the gun to indicate
distance or a timer. In the case of a timer you are screwed. If its a
radio it won't matter unless you throw the gun away.

I'm thinking along the lines of the sub duel in "The
Hunt for Red October" when Sean Connery's character turns the sub toward
the enemy at full speed to close inside the minimum arming distance. The
torps just bounced off the hull.

If you want a more cinematic image think of the fellow
getting shot at charging the grenade launcher to get inside range
counting on his impact armor to hold off the blunt trauma of the grenade
then beatin the piss out of the guy with the launcher.
Message no. 11
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:39:04 -0300
> I'm thinking that it wouldn't do anything. I'm guessing
> that there would have to be either a radio link to the gun to indicate
> distance or a timer. In the case of a timer you are screwed. If its a
> radio it won't matter unless you throw the gun away.
>
> I'm thinking along the lines of the sub duel in "The
> Hunt for Red October" when Sean Connery's character turns the sub toward
> the enemy at full speed to close inside the minimum arming distance. The
> torps just bounced off the hull.
>
> If you want a more cinematic image think of the fellow
> getting shot at charging the grenade launcher to get inside range
> counting on his impact armor to hold off the blunt trauma of the grenade
> then beatin the piss out of the guy with the launcher.


You can also fire "riot control" shells from a grenade launcher...
A solid rubber slug, instead of an explosive charge. That way, you
don't have to worry about being close to the target to knock the
wind out of them (a hostage may be more useful than chunky salsa... :) )

Bira
Message no. 12
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:35:25 -0500
> -> This is specifically stated in the rules (I know in SR3,
> ->not sure about others). They arm 5 meters from the launcher. Which opens
> ->up a neat idea of shooting someone in the gut with a grenade at 3m. It
> ->won't go off but it will knock the wind out of them and scare the piss
> ->out of 'em.
> It will, however, arm itself inside the body of the individual,
> wouldn't it? When the grenade is fired, it only has 5 meters of "air
> time" to arm itself. Since this is a relatively short period of time, you
> shoot it at the guy, it either enters his body or bounces off (probably
> the latter) and arms itself in midair. When it hits the ground... BOOM!

UM not with the current system they use for the safety fuzing in grenade
launchers. It is a mechanical safety that is activaded by the rotational
motion of the round as it flies through the air. It has some sort of
weighted arm and spring device(dont know how it is constructed exactly)
that needs to spin at a certian minimum RPM for a certian number of
complete cycles before the safety is disingaged and the round will
explode. you fire the round and it has spin given to it by the rifeling
of the barrel, the spin makes the arm go round inside the projectile till
it screws someting out of the way of the fireing pin in the fuze. The
number of cycles needed to screw out the block is calculated to give X
distance of normal flight before the round can go off. Now if you really
know your gunnery(B&R) you can remove the safety but then you have the
chance of blowing yourself up if it hits something a tad to close to you:)

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 13
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:40:59 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:09 PM 8/21/98 -0400, Bryan wrote:
>> Minigrenades should also explode on impact since they are armed
when
>> fired.
> This is specifically stated in the rules (I know in
SR3,
>not sure about others). They arm 5 meters from the launcher. Which
opens
>up a neat idea of shooting someone in the gut with a grenade at 3m.
It
>won't go off but it will knock the wind out of them and scare the
piss
>out of 'em.

I was just about to ask that, since that's how it was in SR2.
(Although, there was a little note about being able to give the
laucher a little tweak to arm the grenade when fired, with a happy
little reminder that grenades usually have a blast radius.)

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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 14
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:34:42 -0400
From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>

>(a hostage may be more useful than chunky salsa... :) )


Unless, of course, you have a giant ass bag of tortillas you don't know
what to do with.
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------
Message no. 15
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:17:45 -0500
> You can also fire "riot control" shells from a grenade launcher...
> A solid rubber slug, instead of an explosive charge. That way, you
> don't have to worry about being close to the target to knock the
> wind out of them (a hostage may be more useful than chunky salsa... :) )

As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see Neuro-stun
VII), I just had a thought about a scene in Ted Turner's version of
Gettysburg. When the rebels were going to charge the union troops, they knew
that once they got into close range, they would have to deal with shrapnel
loads in the cannon. (I think there was a cool name for it, but don't recall
it). Now, adapt that to a grenade launcher....

Probably not the most efficient weapon, but certainly well on the way to
chunky salsa (and chips if that toots your horn).

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
(Who is happily listening to some twisted music).
Message no. 16
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 04:39:18 -0400
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
>As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see Neuro-stun
>VII), I just had a thought about a scene in Ted Turner's version of
>Gettysburg. When the rebels were going to charge the union troops, they
knew
>that once they got into close range, they would have to deal with shrapnel
>loads in the cannon. (I think there was a cool name for it, but don't
recall


The term you're looking for is "Grape Shot". And it was pretty damned
effective.
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------
Message no. 17
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 08:42:58 -0400
On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

-> I'm thinking that it wouldn't do anything. I'm guessing
->that there would have to be either a radio link to the gun to indicate
->distance or a timer. In the case of a timer you are screwed. If its a
->radio it won't matter unless you throw the gun away.

I knew I remembered something about minimum range (I only have SR2
so bear with me). Page 97, Column 1, paragraphs 5&6: In summary: The
grenade will not go off if it hits aanything within the minimum range due
to a safety feature in case of accidental misfire (I'd agree this would
have to be radio-controlled or something similar).
However, it also then goes to say that this safety feature can be
disabled ouside of combat, thereby removing minimum range.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 18
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:38:55 -0500
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:

> From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>


> > As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see
> > Neuro-stun VII), I just had a thought about a scene in Ted Turner's
> > version of Gettysburg. When the rebels were going to charge the union
> > troops, they knew that once they got into close range, they would have
> > to deal with shrapnel loads in the cannon. (I think there was a cool
> > name for it, but don't recall
> The term you're looking for is "Grape Shot". And it was pretty damned
> effective.

Or "Canister" witch is also pretty damned effective. Both rounds will
turn a smooth bore cannon into a honking big shotgun. Grapeshot uses a
medium number of large lead balls held together with cloth and rope on a
wood sabot(since the cloth is shrunk tight to hold the balls together it
looks like a bunch of grapes, aka the name). On firing from a blackpoweder
cannon the wood,rope, and cloth are burned/desintigrated and you a good
number of deadly little expanding out in a cone to *thunk* about 100
yards. Canister is a LOT of smaller lead balls packed in a tin canister
(inventive on the names ainth they:)). On firing the thin tin walls of
the canister shred and you get a fairly dense pattern of high speed balls
that are deadly to mabey 40 yards.
Both rounds are used as anti personel and anti cavalry rounds to
break up and mow down the tight formations of the era. You started out
hitting them with solid shot and shell at long range, switched to grape
shot at medium range, and when they got close you littarly blew holes in
the formation with canister. OOH if they got really close you could
double and triple load the canister for a super short range but REALLY
dense shot pattern.

Now how does this work in the modern day? Well as the discovered
during the Civil War rifled cannon cant fire normal grapeshot and
cannister. When you spin the shot it spreads out a LOT faster and the
more you rifle your gun to get good acuracy with the shells the more your
gapeshot pattern looks like a giant ring with half the balls hitting the
ground 20 feet in front of the cannon and half flying up into the sky(and
hitting 20 feet in front of the cannon on the way down) and mabey 2 or 3
balls actualy traveling out far enough to hit the enemy. Oh and whats
usualy 20 or so feet in front of your cannon? Why that would be our own
infantry sir!

There is a solution though, you need to add slip rings to the
round so that the main portion of the round does not rotate as it travels
down the rifled barrel. Cannister and/or grape was keept in limited
production untill about the koren war(atleast in the US, might still be
around in other contries) for last ditch defense of Artillery batteries
(which had switched to inderect fire from direct fire in the front lines)
and as a anti-personel round for tanks. During the Viatnam era the US
redevelopted the cannister round but with "improvements" and the beehive
fletchette round was born. 5,000 "steel carpet nails with fins" packed
into a 155mm round to turn them into the worlds largest shotguns. Smaller
version where made for the 105mm howitzer and the various tank guns in the
US inventory. Also in that time they created a buckshot round for the
40mm grenade launcher wich was great for short range firepower in ambush
or counter ambush situations in the dense jungles of SE Asia.

I always knew i was going to apreciate all the time slots i spent
listening to Major Wesley's artilery through the ages lectures at GenCon
over the years. :)

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 19
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:39:20 -0400
XaOs wrote:

<snip>

> As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see Neuro-stun
> VII)


Grenades filled with DMSO and Neuro-Stun, or Hyper... Water balloons
filled with the same mix, slightly diluted...ooooh, I'm SO evil. Look
out, players, Jett, EGIT at large, has an idea for the next game. :>


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 20
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:22:30 -0500
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:39:20 -0400 Jett <zmjett@*********.COM> writes:
>XaOs wrote:
><snip>
>> As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see
Neuro-stun
>> VII)

>Grenades filled with DMSO and Neuro-Stun, or Hyper... Water balloons
>filled with the same mix, slightly diluted...ooooh, I'm SO evil. Look
>out, players, Jett, EGIT at large, has an idea for the next game. :>
>
>
>--Jett
<SNIP Sig>

Oh no! Run! Ganger kids with Super Soakers filled with
DMSO/(Mao/Hyper/Cyanide/Atropine/Gamma-Scopolamine/etc...)

Hey ... I might use that actually ...

Some kids running in the streets while the runners are walking around to
some meet and one of the kids shoots a runner with a watery substance
from a water gun ... a little later (ie, on a run!) the runner(s) feels a
little slow ... damn kid shot shot him with Mao (mao derivative since Mao
is instant effect) ... gotta love it!

D. Ghost (who thinks the list should renamed EvilShadowRN)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 21
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:14:15 EDT
In a message dated 8/22/98 10:40:34 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
zmjett@*********.COM writes:

> > As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see Neuro-
stun
> > VII)
>
>
> Grenades filled with DMSO and Neuro-Stun, or Hyper... Water balloons
> filled with the same mix, slightly diluted...ooooh, I'm SO evil. Look
> out, players, Jett, EGIT at large, has an idea for the next game. :>

I actually have something else I want to ask about, does anyone have a problem
with the damage radius that grenades have?

As it currently stands, grenades have anywhere between a 10 and 20 meter
damage radius. Yes, I do realize that the power of the grenade does drop
depending on how far away from the grenade you are, but I have a slight
personal problem with the potential of being hit by a grenade at distances
greater than 3 to 5 meters.

Having seen Saving Private Ryan, had they been using SR(any version) rules for
the hand grenades, groups would have been going around with grenade launchers
and blasting the frag out of each other using grenades only, screw tommy guns,
launch 4 or 5 grenades in that general area and wait and see what happens.

I do realize that the grenades in SR3 (I am not including anything IPE or the
like since they won't be fleshed out in SR3 until Cannon Companion comes out
next year) weigh in the .25 kg (roughly half-a-pound) to 0.1 kg (roughly a
quarter of a pound), but for their size and weight I don't perceive the damage
radii listed in SR3 as being "understandable."

Does anyone out there have any RL experience / knowledge when it comes to hand
grenades and their supposed damage radius's, as I have no real personal
knowledge on the topic.

Thanks,

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 22
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:11:02 -0500
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, Mike Bobroff wrote:

> Having seen Saving Private Ryan, had they been using SR(any version) rules for
> the hand grenades, groups would have been going around with grenade launchers
> and blasting the frag out of each other using grenades only, screw tommy guns,
> launch 4 or 5 grenades in that general area and wait and see what happens.
<snip>
> Does anyone out there have any RL experience / knowledge when it comes to hand
> grenades and their supposed damage radius's, as I have no real personal
> knowledge on the topic.

Well From what i remember it there has been a big change in grenade design
over the years. In WWI, WWII most grenades had big metal cases with a
fairly stable HiExplosive filler. The idea was that the HE fragmented the
case into lots of deadly little peices of metal that flew out in a fairly
even cload to hit the enemy. Back then many weapons where excepted with
out all the scientific studies they do on them now. When someone actualy
did some tests on current grenades they found that what really happened
was that most of the casing was turned into metal dust with a half dozen
or so big jagged peices that flew off in a few random directions. Most of
the actualy killing done by them was due to the concusion effects. This
lead to the development of grenades that included preformed shrapnel such
as ball barings or similar things. Current grenades have taken this a
step further and have a layer of heavy gauge prenotched wire in between
the thin casing and the explosive filler. The individual peices of
shrapnel are a bit smaller that way but you get a MUCH denser cloud of
them. Along with these improvements in the physical leathality of the
grenades has been the chemical improvements of the explosives. Current
military grade High Explosives are MUCH more powerfull than good old TNT.
So not only does your modern grenade have alot better chance of having
deadly fragments going in a certian direction they have a lot more
explosive force behind them from the same size grenade.

As for hand held genade launchers at D-Day. Well they hadn't
invented them yet. They did have rifle launched grenades but they were
big (about a foot long because of the fined tail), heavy, and not issued
in any great numbers to US forces. You had to put the addapter on the
muzzle of your rifle, then fit the grenade on the muzzle, then load a
special blank cartrige (for most versions, some had bullet traps) and then
remember how to use the special rifle grenade sights. The M-79 grenade
launcher was the first reliable hand held grenade launcher and it wasnt
develeped will the early 60's.

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 23
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:15:53 -0600
Adam wrote:

>
>When bad guy tosses grenade, street samurai goes over, picks it up, throws
>it back. Page 118, SR3 "All grenades go off in the next Combat Phase of the
>character making the grenade attack. If the character has no more Combat
>Phases in that Combat Turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of the
>next Initiative Pass. If the grenade is launched in the last Initiative
>Pass of a Combat Turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of that Combat
>Turn."
>
>Heck, the magician might be able to do it.
>
>This actually parallels a WWII story where a bunch of marines in an assault
>boat were repeatedly attacked by thrown grenades. Fortunately, one of them
>happened to be a major league pitcher, who threw the grenades back with
>unerring accuracy, until the last grenade blew his arm off [the enemy
>learned their lesson and waited before throwing].
>

"Waited before throwing..." Well, that sounds like a delayed action to me.
Or maybe the throwerhas a higher initiative and throws it after the mage
has done all of his actions for the round. just because they are NPC's
doesn't mean they are always going to be stupid.

Piatro
Message no. 24
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 20:39:32 -0500
> >This actually parallels a WWII story where a bunch of marines in an assault
> >boat were repeatedly attacked by thrown grenades. Fortunately, one of them
> >happened to be a major league pitcher, who threw the grenades back with
> >unerring accuracy, until the last grenade blew his arm off [the enemy
> >learned their lesson and waited before throwing].
> "Waited before throwing..." Well, that sounds like a delayed action to me.
> Or maybe the throwerhas a higher initiative and throws it after the mage
> has done all of his actions for the round. just because they are NPC's
> doesn't mean they are always going to be stupid.

I think its more likely that the japanese grunt just pulled the pin and
then waited a few secounds for the fuze to burn down before throwing. AKA
normaly it has a 7 secound fuze. You pull the pin and throw right away. It
takes 3 secounds to reach the assault boat so it still has 4 secounds left
on the fuze. This gives the pitcher time to scoop up the grenade and
throw it back or atleast out of the boat. If you pull the pin and wait 3
secounds before throwing the fuze will have burned 6 of the 7 secounds
when the grenade lands in the boat. It is unlikly that the pitcher can
scoop it up and get it far enough away from the boat in 1 secound. Infact
he probably had it in his hand when i blew. To me this doesnt seem like a
delayed action but others may feel free to disagree.

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 25
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:55:58 -0700
>As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see Neuro-stun
>VII), I just had a thought about a scene in Ted Turner's version of
>Gettysburg. When the rebels were going to charge the union troops, they knew
>that once they got into close range, they would have to deal with shrapnel
>loads in the cannon. (I think there was a cool name for it, but don't recall
>it). Now, adapt that to a grenade launcher....

Grapeshot. Used in old sailing navies all the time to clear the enemy decks
and clear out marine sharpshooters from the rigging.

>-XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net
>(Who is happily listening to some twisted music).

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 26
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:39:58 -0700
>Does anyone out there have any RL experience / knowledge when it comes to hand
>grenades and their supposed damage radius's, as I have no real personal
>knowledge on the topic.

Anecdotal evidence: for the old pineapple style grenades used in WWII, you
could be killed up to 100 yards away if you happened to get hit by the
fusing assembly. Despite the prefragmented body, the grenade tended to
split up into different sized chunks. The biggest one that carried the
farthest was the fuse ...

>Thanks,
>
>-Herc
>------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 27
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:55:42 -0700
>"Waited before throwing..." Well, that sounds like a delayed action to me.
>Or maybe the throwerhas a higher initiative and throws it after the mage
>has done all of his actions for the round. just because they are NPC's
>doesn't mean they are always going to be stupid.

Didn't say they were. In this past run this weekend, players ended up down
in a sewer and wanting to come up. Played a few examples of grenade
toss-n-catch, until NPCs started dropping them down 1 phase before they
were going to explode. Most NPCs died in messy after effects of a WP
grenade induced ammo cookoff ...

>Piatro

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 28
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:24:44 -0400
Adam G didst sayeth:
>>As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see
Neuro-stun
>>VII), I just had a thought about a scene in Ted Turner's version of
>>Gettysburg. When the rebels were going to charge the union troops, they
knew
>>that once they got into close range, they would have to deal with shrapnel
>>loads in the cannon. (I think there was a cool name for it, but don't
recall
>>it). Now, adapt that to a grenade launcher....
>
>Grapeshot. Used in old sailing navies all the time to clear the enemy decks
>and clear out marine sharpshooters from the rigging.


He's referring to Canister shot. Grape is the naval stuff, which as I've
just been informed, had a longer range. Canister shot is a big assed
shotgun round designed to be used inside 100 yards when the battery is in
danger of being overrun. It's basically a tin can the diameter of a
cannonball filled with pretty much whatever the hell bits of metal they felt
like, though they were often round for convenience.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 29
From: Andreas Hausjell <a.h.a@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Grenades
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:24:20 +0200
> >As much as I love the potential of non-lethal grenade loads (see
Neuro-stun
> >VII), I just had a thought about a scene in Ted Turner's version of
> >Gettysburg. When the rebels were going to charge the union troops, they
knew
> >that once they got into close range, they would have to deal with
shrapnel
> >loads in the cannon. (I think there was a cool name for it, but don't
recall
> >it). Now, adapt that to a grenade launcher....
>
> Grapeshot. Used in old sailing navies all the time to clear the enemy
decks
> and clear out marine sharpshooters from the rigging.
>
Can anyone remember IPX-grenades. They are not allowed since XY, don't
know, but once 18 of my soldiers had been killed or nearly killed by 2 of this
f*** grenades. (The soldiers where jumping out of a Truck) but a runner of
mine couldn't await it and threw the granade to into it.
Rest in Peace
Scapegoat
> >-XaOs-
> >xaos@*****.net
> >(Who is happily listening to some twisted music).
>
> --Adam
>
> acgetchell@*******.edu
> "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
>

---
Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net

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