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Message no. 1
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:01:55 -0400
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File this one under "can't wait until FASA puts out Man and Machine"

If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
Skill Points?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 2
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:17:43 -0400
Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
> during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
> to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
> Skill Points?

No. (There, that was simple.) >8->

Need a rationale? Okay -- show me a piece of INT-raising cyberware or
bioware in the book that actually increases *knowledge*, rather than
analytical capacity.


Have Fun, ("And the capital of Nebraska is LINCOLN!")
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 3
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:07:04 -0400
<snip>
>File this one under "can't wait until FASA puts out Man and Machine"
>
>If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>Skill Points?
</snip>

I wouldn't, because intelligence-boosting bio/cyberware is added in at the
same time that the intelligence is added in. :) AND the character has two
stats now; an unadjusted INT and an adjusted INT.

The adjusted INT is adjusted for the purpose of ability checks, it doesn't
actually make the character incrementally smarter.




Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corporation
Message no. 4
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:24:17 -0400
At 04:17 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Paul Gettle wrote:
>>
>> If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>> during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>> to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>> Skill Points?
>
>No. (There, that was simple.) >8->
>
>Need a rationale? Okay -- show me a piece of INT-raising cyberware or
>bioware in the book that actually increases *knowledge*, rather than
>analytical capacity.

Yes. (That was also simple).

Int raising cyber and bio increases the analytical capacity of the
character. Greater analytical capacity should lead to quicker comprehension
of the same level of material, or allowing more material to be learned in
the same time frame. Since the 'ware has been purcahsed in the past (during
character creation) extra knowledge points are those skills that were
learned after the implant of said cyber or bio.

Now, if its implanted during actual game time, then its learning the hard
way, all the way.

Sommers, BABY 932
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 5
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:33:41 -0400
At 04:24 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:17 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Paul Gettle wrote:
>>>
>>> If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>>> during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>>> to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>>> Skill Points?
>>
>>No. (There, that was simple.) >8->
>>
>>Need a rationale? Okay -- show me a piece of INT-raising cyberware or
>>bioware in the book that actually increases *knowledge*, rather than
>>analytical capacity.
>
>Yes. (That was also simple).
>
>Int raising cyber and bio increases the analytical capacity of the
>character. Greater analytical capacity should lead to quicker comprehension
>of the same level of material, or allowing more material to be learned in
>the same time frame. Since the 'ware has been purcahsed in the past (during
>character creation) extra knowledge points are those skills that were
>learned after the implant of said cyber or bio.

You do have a valid point, but the scope expands from that point
exponentially. INT accounts from the accrued knowledge from birth. Very
few people are runners from birth (born and ware installed right then).

My point is, how do you account for the ammount of time the 'ware has been
affecting the character's INT. A character with fresh-installed shouldn't
have the extra points, but a character that's had his 'ware for several
years should have points (pro-rated) from the time the 'ware was installed.

How do you account for that? Its a math-equation/can-of-worms best not
opened because how many char-gen points and of what do you spend for having
the advantage of grown up with the INT-boosters installed?



Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corporation
Message no. 6
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:50:17 -0400
At 04:33 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:

>You do have a valid point, but the scope expands from that point
>exponentially. INT accounts from the accrued knowledge from birth. Very
>few people are runners from birth (born and ware installed right then).

I don't know, I think I've learned a lot more in the last 5 years than I
did in the first 20 :)

>My point is, how do you account for the ammount of time the 'ware has been
>affecting the character's INT. A character with fresh-installed shouldn't
>have the extra points, but a character that's had his 'ware for several
>years should have points (pro-rated) from the time the 'ware was installed.

You're right, you should probably do that. But I say, they spent the money,
got the essence burned. Its a permament change, let them have it.

>How do you account for that? Its a math-equation/can-of-worms best not
>opened because how many char-gen points and of what do you spend for having
>the advantage of grown up with the INT-boosters installed?

At most they're going to get 4 points for it if they get the INT +2 model.
For that much I let them have it. That follows our old house rule, which
gave Int x 1.5 for languages and Special Skills, and the Int boosters
counted for that.

Sommers, BABY 932
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."
Message no. 7
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:53:19 -0500
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Shaun Gilroy wrote:
> I wouldn't, because intelligence-boosting bio/cyberware is added in at the
> same time that the intelligence is added in. :) AND the character has two
> stats now; an unadjusted INT and an adjusted INT.

I like this.... Does Muscle Aug. make the cost of Strength-linked
and Quickness-linked skills change? (during chargen or after)
I hadn't considered this, so I haven't looked it up in my BABY
(911). So unless I see otherwise in the BABY, I'd rule it:
The points available for Knowledge skills and the point costs
for Active skills are based on the natural, unmodified Attributes
of the Shadowrunner.

What do you think, sirs?

Wretch
Message no. 8
From: Ryan Bolduan <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:50:50 -0500
>>Int raising cyber and bio increases the analytical capacity of the
>>character. Greater analytical capacity should lead to quicker comprehension
>>of the same level of material, or allowing more material to be learned in
>>the same time frame. Since the 'ware has been purcahsed in the past (during
>>character creation) extra knowledge points are those skills that were
>>learned after the implant of said cyber or bio.
>
>You do have a valid point, but the scope expands from that point
>exponentially. INT accounts from the accrued knowledge from birth. Very
>few people are runners from birth (born and ware installed right then).
>
>My point is, how do you account for the ammount of time the 'ware has been
>affecting the character's INT. A character with fresh-installed shouldn't
>have the extra points, but a character that's had his 'ware for several
>years should have points (pro-rated) from the time the 'ware was
>installed.
>
>How do you account for that? Its a math-equation/can-of-worms best not
>opened because how many char-gen points and of what do you spend for having
>the advantage of grown up with the INT-boosters installed?

I can see both your arguments, but can't it also be made that, let's say I
get a Cerebral Booster right before I go off to college (I'm not all that
bright so I have an INT of 1, now 3). Now I take my classes and because I
have that "increased analytical capacity" I am able to learn my subjects
better and get better grades. Now let's also just assume that all I cared
about before college was Urban Brawl at skill level 5 (yes I know I would
never get in, but let's forget that for now). Don't you think that level
2 cerebral booster ought to be worth something. If I had a major in
biology for example it could be used on all sorts of skills, and
theoretically you could distribute those 10 points into the appropriate
skills.

Couldn't an argument also be made that once you get that cerebral booster
level 2, all of a sudden those equations that you couldn't understand a
year ago suddenly make a whole lot more sense?

Although my personal jury is still out on this one, I am leaning to
letting the INT increase add more to skills, not sure though.


Talk to you later!!

/> Duct tape is like the force, it has a light and
/< a dark side and it binds the universe together.
O[\\\\\\(O):::<===============================================-
\<
\> -- Ryan Bolduan
emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
Message no. 9
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:03:36 -0500
>Have Fun, ("And the capital of Nebraska is LINCOLN!")
> - Steve Eley
> sfeley@***.net


Yep, and they start playing BIG RED FOOTBALL there tomorrow!

[CHEEER]

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Proud owner of #972
Message no. 10
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:11:23 -0400
Sommers wrote:
>
> I don't know, I think I've learned a lot more in the last 5 years than I
> did in the first 20 :)

Psychologists would say otherwise. (The most intensive learning happens
in the *first* five years.)


> At most they're going to get 4 points for it if they get the INT +2 model.

13 points. 10 points for Knowledge skills (+2 bonus * 5,) and 3 points
for Language skills (+2 bonus * 1.5). That's clearly not trivial.

If your perspective differs from mine, I'm cool with that, but this isn't
an "I'm right, you're wrong" situation. If you think Encephalons, etc.,
increase all aspects of intelligence including comprehension and memory
retention then sure, your reasoning holds. If you think, as I do, that
INT-boosters are purely about accelerating mental computation and not
about comprehension, creativity, or other aspects of the learning process,
then my reasoning is correct.

FASA left this vague, so it's anybody's guess. The original question was,
"Would you allow...?" and we've both answered that.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 11
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:16:09 -0400
Tim Serpas wrote:
>
> I like this.... Does Muscle Aug. make the cost of Strength-linked
> and Quickness-linked skills change? (during chargen or after)
> I hadn't considered this, so I haven't looked it up in my BABY
> (911). So unless I see otherwise in the BABY, I'd rule it:
> The points available for Knowledge skills and the point costs
> for Active skills are based on the natural, unmodified Attributes
> of the Shadowrunner.
>
> What do you think, sirs?

Oooh! You just raised a point I haven't thought of before:

Going *strictly* by-the-book, Intelligence-raising cyberware and bioware
CAN'T add to Knowledge Skills at character creation. This is because, by
the order of steps listed, you choose your starting skills BEFORE you buy
gear. >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley (Yes, yes I think there IS a hyphen in anal-retentive..)
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:22:35 -0500
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:24:17 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:
>At 04:17 PM 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Paul Gettle wrote:
>>> If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>>> during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>>> to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>>> Skill Points?

>>No. (There, that was simple.) >8->
>>
>>Need a rationale? Okay -- show me a piece of INT-raising cyberware or
>>bioware in the book that actually increases *knowledge*, rather than
>>analytical capacity.

>Yes. (That was also simple).
>
>Int raising cyber and bio increases the analytical capacity of the
>character. Greater analytical capacity should lead to quicker
comprehension
>of the same level of material, or allowing more material to be learned
in
>the same time frame. Since the 'ware has been purcahsed in the past
(during
>character creation) extra knowledge points are those skills that were
>learned after the implant of said cyber or bio.
>
>Now, if its implanted during actual game time, then its learning the
hard
>way, all the way.
>
>Sommers, BABY 932
>"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."

No. (Still Simple ;)

The 5*INT reflects, IMO, the knowledge the character achieved in his/her
youth. In genral, cyber/bioware that boosts INT would be implanted after
said developement period. While characters could conceivable come up
with rationales for why they have had that Cerbral Booster 2 all their
life (Cyberware would have to wait until physical maturity while most
bioware could be implanted almost anytime, IMO), I would still reccomend
not allowing it regardless of hoe good the rationale is in order to
maintain balance with other players.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:23:23 -0400
>File this one under "can't wait until FASA puts out Man and Machine"

>If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>Skill Points?


No I would not. This is because I do not thinkl that you (under normal
circumstances) would have theat piece of Cyber/Bio-ware when you were
learning those skills. I twould also be a little overpowering. I view
the Knowledge Skills as your schooling, training and life experience
before you became a runner or needed all of those fancy gadgets. I
also have gut reaction to it that is not pleasing.



Jester
Message no. 14
From: John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:35:49 -0400
>At most they're going to get 4 points for it if they get the INT +2
>model. For that much I let them have it.


Umm, would that not be 10 points? as 2 times 5 is 10. Which means you could
get a +2 Encephalon and a +2 Cerebral Booster for a total of +20 Knowskill
points which would max you out at 50. Way too much IMO.


>That follows our old house rule, which gave Int x 1.5 for languages >and
Special Skills, and the Int boosters counted for that.


You do also get Int X 1.5 for languages also, which were also probably
learned nefore you got the Cyber/Bio-ware.

Jester
Message no. 15
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:52:40 -0700
Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> File this one under "can't wait until FASA puts out Man and Machine"
>
> If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
> during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
> to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
> Skill Points?

I'd say no simply because the In-boosting stuff doesn't do much more than
increase your *efficiency*. Just the same as I would use natural scores for
other purposes (determining skill costs and such).



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> --
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
> PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
> C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 16
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:19:01 -0400
>Paul Gettle wrote:
>>
>> If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>> during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>> to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>> Skill Points?
>
>No. (There, that was simple.) >8->
>
>Need a rationale? Okay -- show me a piece of INT-raising cyberware or
>bioware in the book that actually increases *knowledge*, rather than
>analytical capacity.
>

Ok Mnemonic Enhancer.

Actually I Agree with you but for a different reason. As Someone else
mentioned in another post, Skills are chosen before gear is purchased.
Therefore your skills are set when you get the ware installed. But, As
another person pointed out and I don't think this is addresed anywhere,
when raising Skills (any skills) do you use the natural or modified
atribute to determine the cost. It seems munchkinous but I would tend to
say the modified one.

Steve
Message no. 17
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:46:45 -0400
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At 04:33 PM 8/28/98 -0400, Shaun wrote:
>>Int raising cyber and bio increases the analytical capacity of the
>>character. Greater analytical capacity should lead to quicker
comprehension
>>of the same level of material, or allowing more material to be
learned in
>>the same time frame. Since the 'ware has been purcahsed in the past
(during
>>character creation) extra knowledge points are those skills that
were
>>learned after the implant of said cyber or bio.

<<Snip>>

>My point is, how do you account for the ammount of time the 'ware has
been
>affecting the character's INT. A character with fresh-installed
shouldn't
>have the extra points, but a character that's had his 'ware for
several
>years should have points (pro-rated) from the time the 'ware was
installed.
>
>How do you account for that? Its a math-equation/can-of-worms best
not
>opened because how many char-gen points and of what do you spend for
having
>the advantage of grown up with the INT-boosters installed?

If character creation is a co-operative process between Player and GM,
and if the player is developing a fleshed-out background for the PC,
then it should be fairly clear how long the PC has had the piece of
ware.

After all, the process is supposed to be creating a well rounded
personality, a fictional person as actual and dimensional that the
player can create, and then, coming up with a few numbers,
representative in game terms, of what that character should be able to
do. It's not just number crunching on a piece of paper, trying to
figure out the best bonuses.

I've had players submit backgrounds so detailed, they list the surgery
date for each piece of installed cyber, and the circumstances that
lead to that player getting that mod. This is, a bit over the top, but
that player also had the best sense of who his character _was_, of any
player I've had.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 18
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:47:24 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:22 PM 8/28/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>The 5*INT reflects, IMO, the knowledge the character achieved in
his/her
>youth.

Personally, I think the 5*INT reflects what the character knows, at
the time the player starts playing the character. If you restrict the
Knowledge skills to what the character achieved in his/her youth, how
do you explain Knowledge Skills like "Seedy Ork Bars", "BTL Dealers",
"Cheap Synthahol Guzzling", "Prostitution Rings", "Hardcore Punk
Bands"? (Musta been one HELL of a rough childhood.)

One of the characters that I'm working up chargen for was born in San
Fran, but didn't move to Seattle until she was 20. She's lived there
about 15 years though. Am I precluded from giving her a "Seattle
Geography" skill to reflect that she knows her way around, or a
"Downtown Chip-pushers" skill because she's had a bit of a BTL habit
for the past decade, and as such, has gotten to know quite a few
dealers, and where to find them?

"Knowledge Skills represent what the character knows. Such knowledge
can come from book learning, hobbies, or experience." p. 57, BBB3

>In genral, cyber/bioware that boosts INT would be implanted after
>said developement period.

People can learn new knowledge at any time, IMO. If you go by the
dates in Shadowtech, the Cerebral Booster and the Encphalon were
available in late '52. 7 years isn't a long enough time for someone to
develop new knowledge skills with the help of their 'ware enhanced
smarts?

>I would still reccomend
>not allowing it regardless of hoe good the rationale is in order to
>maintain balance with other players.

So, I could have two characters running around with an effective
intelligence of 5, except one gets to spend 25 points on knowledge
skills, while the other only gets to spend 15, because even though the
character had gotten an encephalon back in '55, his natural INT is
only a 3.

This is maintaining balance?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 19
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:47:05 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:53 PM 8/28/98 -0500, Wretch wrote:
>I like this.... Does Muscle Aug. make the cost of Strength-linked
>and Quickness-linked skills change? (during chargen or after)
>I hadn't considered this, so I haven't looked it up in my BABY
>(911). So unless I see otherwise in the BABY, I'd rule it:
>The points available for Knowledge skills and the point costs
>for Active skills are based on the natural, unmodified Attributes
>of the Shadowrunner.

I hadn't even considered points cost being tied to your attributes
yet.
I was more worried about these knowledge skills, since the points
avialable to spend on the knowledge skills are directly based on
Intelligence.

This is a damn good question.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 20
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:47:39 -0400
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At 06:23 PM 8/28/98 -0400, Jester wrote:
>No I would not. This is because I do not thinkl that you (under
normal
> circumstances) would have theat piece of Cyber/Bio-ware when
you were
> learning those skills. I twould also be a little overpowering.
I view
> the Knowledge Skills as your schooling, training and life
experience
> before you became a runner or needed all of those fancy
gadgets.

So only runners get encephalons implanted? Normal, upright,
law-abiding metahumans totally avoid the thing?

And since Knowledge Skills are "your schooling, training, and life
experience before you became a runner" then the Combat Decker, Drone
Rigger, and Street Samurai sample characters learned their respective
"Data Havens", "Safehouse Locations", and "Shadowrunner
Haunts" skills
at the high levels they know them at _before_ they were ever runners?
Wow.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 21
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:47:12 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:11 PM 8/28/98 -0400, Steve wrote:
>If your perspective differs from mine, I'm cool with that, but this
isn't
>an "I'm right, you're wrong" situation. If you think Encephalons,
etc.,
>increase all aspects of intelligence including comprehension and
memory
>retention then sure, your reasoning holds. If you think, as I do,
that
>INT-boosters are purely about accelerating mental computation and not
>about comprehension, creativity, or other aspects of the learning
process,
>then my reasoning is correct.

My own view of Encephalons places them as the ultimate expression of
the "Wearable Computer".

MIT's Media Lab has a webpage about Wearable Computers at:

http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/projects/wearables/

IMHO, to be able to provide the effects that they do, Encephalons
would have to handle both the "Augmented Memory" and "Augmented
Reality" applications curently being researched for use in Wearable
Computers, and be able do do so with the speed and ease of direct
neural interface, backed by the power of what computers are capable of
doing by SR time.

To go down your list of aspects of intelligence, vs. my view of how
the encephalon works:
Comprehension: The only way an Encephalon could help here would be by
indexing and sorting what you've learned (since getting the Encephalon
implanted, of course). Essentially, "taking notes in class" but with
the speed and precision of a well oiled database. Even outside of a
classroom setting, "notetaking" can be one of the best ways to help
yourself learn something.

Memory Retention: This is the big one. If the view of Encephalons
allows them "Rememberance Agent" capabilities, then memory retention
skyrockets.

Creativity: This one is another one that the Encephalon would only
partly be a help in. The Encephalon can provide a digital medium
through which creative mental processes can be expressed. An
electronic scratch pad in one's head where spontanious thought can be
crystalized, tested and weighed for merit, and discarded if found
wanting, all with the speed of microprocesors controled through direct
neural interface.


So, by my view of how Encephalons work, that's two maybes and a Hell
YES. Seeing as how the Hell YES is for Memory Retention, and seeing as
how knowledge skills are used in SR, as a measure of how much
information a character has learned and can remember about a
particular subject, you can imagine how I'm leaning.

However, I'm not ready to turn in my Evil GM card just yet. If I do
allow a player to use the extra Intelligence points given by an
Encephalon during character creation, to buy knowledge skills, they're
specifically going to have to indicate the skills that they spend the
extra Encephalon points on.

Then, if at some future date, the character looses the use of their
encephalon (Cyberware Damage, anyone?) then they would also loose
access to the skill levels paid for by Encephalon points.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 22
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:47:19 -0400
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At 05:16 PM 8/28/98 -0400, Steve wrote:
>Oooh! You just raised a point I haven't thought of before:
>
>Going *strictly* by-the-book, Intelligence-raising cyberware and
bioware
>CAN'T add to Knowledge Skills at character creation. This is
because, by
>the order of steps listed, you choose your starting skills BEFORE you
buy
>gear. >8->

Have you read on p. 62 of BBB3, the section titled "The Nuyen
Shuffle"?

The strong impression that I get from that section, is that just
because the steps of CharGen are presented in a particular order, that
doesn't mean you can't revisit a step later to adjust numbers, as long
as you do it before the finishing touches are added.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:19:26 -0500
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:47:24 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 04:22 PM 8/28/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
<SNIP>
>>I would still reccomend
>>not allowing it regardless of hoe good the rationale is in order to
>>maintain balance with other players.

>So, I could have two characters running around with an effective
>intelligence of 5, except one gets to spend 25 points on knowledge
>skills, while the other only gets to spend 15, because even though the
>character had gotten an encephalon back in '55, his natural INT is
>only a 3.
>
>This is maintaining balance?
>
<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP More PGP>

So, a character could get a level 2 cerebral booster, level 4 Encephalon,
get an exceptional Ability intelligence Edge and max out intelligence
thereby aquiring a total intel of 11 (7+4) giving the char 55
knowledge skill points and 16.5 language skill points.

This is balanced? (nevermind where the char got the gear from for the
moment.;)

The problem I see is that people would then be able to assign a low
intelligence stat and compensate with cyber/bioware. Basicly, allowing
cyber/bioware to boost the available knowledge skill ranks opens things
for Min/Maxing.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 24
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:44:57 EDT
In a message dated 8/28/98 1:37:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
shaung@**********.NET writes:

> You do have a valid point, but the scope expands from that point
> exponentially. INT accounts from the accrued knowledge from birth. Very
> few people are runners from birth (born and ware installed right then).
>
> My point is, how do you account for the ammount of time the 'ware has been
> affecting the character's INT. A character with fresh-installed shouldn't
> have the extra points, but a character that's had his 'ware for several
> years should have points (pro-rated) from the time the 'ware was installed.
>
> How do you account for that? Its a math-equation/can-of-worms best not
> opened because how many char-gen points and of what do you spend for having
> the advantage of grown up with the INT-boosters installed?
>

Actually, look at most of the knowledge skills that the pre-gen characters
have. Many of them are not skills that you would have had as a child. Magical
Background, Electronic Background, Computer Background, etc. Shadowrunner
Haunts, Identify Gangs, Criminal Organizations and so on. These are all skills
that most people would not aquire while growing up.

Most of them could have been aquired after cyber/bioware was installed. So to
me the age thing is not a valid argument.

What is a valid argument is game balance. If you allow the cerebral boosters,
and encephalons to count towards skills that players will get during character
beneration then what about the mage that got a sustained spell focus from his
mage dad when he was 10 years old? It is not something that should be allowed
even though it is plausible.

Otter
Message no. 25
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 02:17:10 EDT
In a message dated 8/28/98 3:08:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> The 5*INT reflects, IMO, the knowledge the character achieved in his/her
> youth. In genral, cyber/bioware that boosts INT would be implanted after
> said developement period. While characters could conceivable come up
> with rationales for why they have had that Cerbral Booster 2 all their
> life (Cyberware would have to wait until physical maturity while most
> bioware could be implanted almost anytime, IMO), I would still reccomend
> not allowing it regardless of hoe good the rationale is in order to
> maintain balance with other players.
>

So what you are saying is that the Vehicle Rigger in the book learned Military
Winged Craft 3 while he was a kid? Or that the Street Sam learned Security
Procedures and the Merc learned Small Unit Tactics while they were playing
cowboys and indians?

I don't think so.

As I stated before. It would be very possible for a rich father to have +4
Intelligence spell anchored to or placed in a sustaining spell focus on his
beloved child. The kid grows up with all the benefits of having a.....let's
say for the sake of argument....4(8) Intelligence. Now this kid has had a
boosted intelligence since he was in the 4th grade, and at character creation
the character is made as a mage (that will allow him to maintain the spell).
Shouldn't that character get the full intelligence bonus for skills?

Not that I agree with this but it is a possible scenario.

Otter
Message no. 26
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:09:20 -0400
At 02:17 AM 8/29/98 EDT, you wrote:
>As I stated before. It would be very possible for a rich father to have +4
>Intelligence spell anchored to or placed in a sustaining spell focus on his
>beloved child. The kid grows up with all the benefits of having a.....let's
>say for the sake of argument....4(8) Intelligence. Now this kid has had a
>boosted intelligence since he was in the 4th grade, and at character creation
>the character is made as a mage (that will allow him to maintain the spell).
>Shouldn't that character get the full intelligence bonus for skills?
>
>Not that I agree with this but it is a possible scenario.
>
>Otter

Well Otter,

What's the likelihood of a character with that background deciding to thow
away his cushy life, potential for corporate advancement and social status
so that he can run the shadows? Most likely he would get caught because
his background is out in the open.

That's how I would see it, at least.
Message no. 27
From: evamarie <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 07:51:16 -0700
>File this one under "can't wait until FASA puts out Man and Machine"
>
>If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>Skill Points?


No need to wait. No, the wares would not help, for the same reason that
"Muscale Replacement" does not allow you to buy higher level skills (without
paying extra)- if you follow the character creation process step by step,
all gear is purchased AFTER skills have been assigned.
It might p[ossibly affect raising skills with karma, but (in our game,
with Rob as our GM) we probaly will use the natulral, unaugmented atributte
for that - for one, it gives physads another edge.

Mongoose
Message no. 28
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:23:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/29/98 9:41:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
shaung@**********.NET writes:

> What's the likelihood of a character with that background deciding to thow
> away his cushy life, potential for corporate advancement and social status
> so that he can run the shadows? Most likely he would get caught because
> his background is out in the open.
>
> That's how I would see it, at least.
>


I could come up with a very good reason but that was not the point. The point
is that such a thing is possible and the other point is that most the pre-gen
characters have Knowledge skills that they would not have learned while they
were children or even teenagers.

Most of the Knowledge skills that the pre-gens have are ones they would have
gained while in either military service or while going to college. By that
time it is very conceivable that they could have had cyber/bioware or
increased intelligence by spells that would have allowed for increased
Knowledge skills.

Otter
Message no. 29
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:45:15 -0400
At 02:23 PM 8/29/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Most of the Knowledge skills that the pre-gens have are ones they would have
>gained while in either military service or while going to college. By that
>time it is very conceivable that they could have had cyber/bioware or
>increased intelligence by spells that would have allowed for increased
>Knowledge skills.
>
>Otter

There you are right, I guess then its the GM's call. I would rule against
it based on the fact that skills are generally measured against the
unaugmented attribute for similar rulings.

But I also make players build beginning characters strictly from the core
rulebook too, so it's a topic I wouldn't have to approach either.

But how would you pro-rate knowledge points for characters who've had their
cyber/bioware longer than other beginning characters? Admittedly its an
ignorable, but if you're going to this granularity with char-gen, where do
you draw the line?
Message no. 30
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:58:12 -0400
At 01:44 AM 8/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/28/98 1:37:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>shaung@**********.NET writes:
>
>> You do have a valid point, but the scope expands from that point
>> exponentially. INT accounts from the accrued knowledge from birth. Very
>> few people are runners from birth (born and ware installed right then).
>>
>> My point is, how do you account for the ammount of time the 'ware has been
>> affecting the character's INT. A character with fresh-installed shouldn't
>> have the extra points, but a character that's had his 'ware for several
>> years should have points (pro-rated) from the time the 'ware was
installed.
>>
>> How do you account for that? Its a math-equation/can-of-worms best not
>> opened because how many char-gen points and of what do you spend for
having
>> the advantage of grown up with the INT-boosters installed?
>>
>
>Actually, look at most of the knowledge skills that the pre-gen characters
>have. Many of them are not skills that you would have had as a child. Magical
>Background, Electronic Background, Computer Background, etc. Shadowrunner
>Haunts, Identify Gangs, Criminal Organizations and so on. These are all
skills
>that most people would not aquire while growing up.
>
>Most of them could have been aquired after cyber/bioware was installed. So to
>me the age thing is not a valid argument.
>
>What is a valid argument is game balance. If you allow the cerebral boosters,
>and encephalons to count towards skills that players will get during
character
>beneration then what about the mage that got a sustained spell focus from his
>mage dad when he was 10 years old? It is not something that should be allowed
>even though it is plausible.

My group asked that question and we posed it to Szeto and the following is
about as an offical answer as we got. According to Jon only the natural
attribute of the pc accounts for figuring out skill points. Neither the
encephalon nor the ceberal booster bonuses to intelligence is factored into
knowledged points. So to briefly put it no the encehalon nor the ceberal
booster enhancements don't give player more knowledged points.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can
be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 31
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:59:40 EDT
>People can learn new knowledge at any time, IMO. If you go by the
>dates in Shadowtech, the Cerebral Booster and the Encphalon were
>available in late '52. 7 years isn't a long enough time for someone to
>develop new knowledge skills with the help of their 'ware enhanced
>smarts?
>
So, No one could learn any thing in the averge five years I takes to
finish college. One might be able to learn a skill in that amount of
time but I doubt they would be able to become an expert in a totally new
skill. IMO, A character should not be allowed to use more points gained
in this way than the number of years they have had the 'ware divided by
2 to a minimum of 1 point on any one skill.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 32
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:51:34 -0600
At 16:01 8/28/98 -0400, you wrote:

>File this one under "can't wait until FASA puts out Man and Machine"

I can't wait either.. aside from New Seattle, this is a book I want -now-. :)

>If a character has Inteligence boosting bioware or cyberware taken
>during character generation, would you allow the enhanced Inteligence
>to be taken into consideration for purposes of alocating Knowledge
>Skill Points?

I brought this up during playtesting, but nothing official was said,
although unofficially a few of us figured that you based Knowledge Skills
off your natural intelligence.

Once I actually get a copy of SR3 and my page goes back online I'll have
some ideas and house rules that I came up with during playtesting on it.

-Adam
Who can't believe they didn't use the magical healing rule.. :/
-
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Message no. 33
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:45:16 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:44 AM 8/29/98 -0400, Otter wrote:
>What is a valid argument is game balance. If you allow the cerebral
boosters,
>and encephalons to count towards skills that players will get during
character
>beneration then what about the mage that got a sustained spell focus
from his
>mage dad when he was 10 years old? It is not something that should be
allowed
>even though it is plausible.

Ouch. Point taken.

I think I'll just reserve any 'ware boosted Knowledge Points for those
moments of extreme GM discression when the GM cuts a player a break
because that player has shown good roleplaying in the past, and is
likely not to abuse any "unbalancing" advantages allowed by the GM.

'Sides, a judicious use of task pool during knowledge skill tests can
easily make up for any disadvantage a character with an enhanced INT
3(5) has compared to a character with a natural INT 5.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 34
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:45:10 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:19 PM 8/28/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>So, a character could get a level 2 cerebral booster, level 4
Encephalon,
>get an exceptional Ability intelligence Edge and max out intelligence
>thereby aquiring a total intel of 11 (7+4) giving the char 55
>knowledge skill points and 16.5 language skill points.

So, where to assign the blame? Is it the House Rule's fault you've got
a munchkin sitting at your table, or is it the munchkin's fault you've
got a munchkin sitting at your table?

If a house rule, or even an interpertation of an existing rule, allows
for good, creative use, then I as a GM, am prepared to take the risk
of the same rule being subjected to creative abuse.
(This is _why_ I was so intent on getting a Hardback SR3; so I can
thwonk the rule abuser upside the head with it.)

BTW, you keep bringing up Language Skill points, which wasn't what my
original question was about. I was only considering Knowledge Skills,
as the description of the Encephalon mentions only "technical, B/R,
and knowledge skills", and not Languages. Now while that mostly
applies to what you can use the task pool on, I think it's a very good
guideline for the current topic too.

>The problem I see is that people would then be able to assign a low
>intelligence stat and compensate with cyber/bioware. Basicly,
allowing
>cyber/bioware to boost the available knowledge skill ranks opens
things
>for Min/Maxing.

So not only do you find fault with people with High Intelligence
characters getting 'ware to make themselves smarter, you also find
fault with those with low Intelligence characters getting 'ware to
make them selves smarter. Interesting. :)

One of my players has a character background where his character was
seriously wounded during Desert Wars. There was some severe brain
trauma, and his mental faculties were severely diminished. He had an
encephalon put in to bring himself back up to where he was before, but
it never was quite the same.

Still, with cyberware assistance, the encephalon keeping his wits
about him for him, he was able to re-learn his life, and start fresh.
He's had a lot of life experience since the accident and actually
become quite a competent runner, though he never quite got used to the
idea of the computer doing some of his thinking for him. In fact,
whenever he gets drunk, he usually switches the thing off. (Drunk,
_and_ his INT drops from 4 back to 2... makes for some interesting
scenes.)

I hope now you can see why I would even consider allowing the 'ware to
be considered for knowledge skills in the first place. The character
would be a smooch more limited if made today under SR3, if he was
stuck with only 5*Natural, and not 5*Enhanced. (Especially, since
knowing the player, and certain undebatable notions he has about the
character, the very first knowledge skill that would go down on the
sheet would be Sports Trivia: 4.)
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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 35
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:17:05 -0500
On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:45:10 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:19 PM 8/28/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>So, a character could get a level 2 cerebral booster, level 4
Encephalon,
>>get an exceptional Ability intelligence Edge and max out intelligence
>>thereby aquiring a total intel of 11 (7+4) giving the char 55
>>knowledge skill points and 16.5 language skill points.

>So, where to assign the blame? Is it the House Rule's fault you've got
>a munchkin sitting at your table, or is it the munchkin's fault you've
>got a munchkin sitting at your table?
>
>If a house rule, or even an interpertation of an existing rule, allows
>for good, creative use, then I as a GM, am prepared to take the risk
>of the same rule being subjected to creative abuse.

It's not so much the rule is wrong because it can be abused but rather
you have to be aware of the possible abuse before you put the rule into
action. :)

>(This is _why_ I was so intent on getting a Hardback SR3; so I can
>thwonk the rule abuser upside the head with it.)

Nah. You'd just damage the hardback ... ;)

>BTW, you keep bringing up Language Skill points, which wasn't what my
>original question was about. I was only considering Knowledge Skills,
>as the description of the Encephalon mentions only "technical, B/R,
>and knowledge skills", and not Languages. Now while that mostly
>applies to what you can use the task pool on, I think it's a very good
>guideline for the current topic too.

Well, I keep bringing up the languages because if the enhanced INT
applies to knowledge skills, why wouldn't it apply to language skills?
The same argumanets apply and are equally valid.

>>The problem I see is that people would then be able to assign a low
>>intelligence stat and compensate with cyber/bioware. Basicly, allowing
>>cyber/bioware to boost the available knowledge skill ranks opens things
>>for Min/Maxing.

>So not only do you find fault with people with High Intelligence
>characters getting 'ware to make themselves smarter, you also find
>fault with those with low Intelligence characters getting 'ware to
>make them selves smarter. Interesting. :)

:P~

>One of my players has a character background where his character was
>seriously wounded during Desert Wars. There was some severe brain
>trauma, and his mental faculties were severely diminished. He had an
>encephalon put in to bring himself back up to where he was before, but
>it never was quite the same.

Really? Nifty. I've got a char that's color blind from her time in the
military ... she's was in Desert Wars too (one of them ... :) What side
was the aforementioned PC on? Mine was on Aztechnology's ... :)

<SNIP>
>I hope now you can see why I would even consider allowing the 'ware to
>be considered for knowledge skills in the first place. The character
>would be a smooch more limited if made today under SR3, if he was
>stuck with only 5*Natural, and not 5*Enhanced. (Especially, since
>knowing the player, and certain undebatable notions he has about the
>character, the very first knowledge skill that would go down on the
>sheet would be Sports Trivia: 4.)
<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP More PGP>

Oh yeah. Definately. I have a rigger character with high INT (5) and
encephalon and most of her knowledge skills are stuff like classical
literature, opera, 20th century muscle cars, and if I switched to
(modified INT)*5, I would and in more "flavor" skills rather than more
Shadowrunny skills.

Hmm ... How about this? (Natural INT)*5 for Knowledge skills with any
normal restrictions and (INT boosts from `ware)*5 for Knowledge skills
with the additional restriction that they can only go towards hobby type
skills.

So a char with, for example, INT of 2 and an Encephalon 3 (thus, +2 INT)
would have have 10 (2*5) Skill Points to spend on anything (Like Pistols
BG Knowledge.) and then 10 (2[the boost imparted by the encephalon]*5)
additional skill points for more hobby-ish skills (Like troll thrash
bands, opera, or sports trivia.).

Sound good?

Btw, would you allow the INT boost from Mneumonic Enhancers to give even
more points?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 36
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:59:17 -0400
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Ryan Bolduan wrote:

<snip all about bioware and cyberware INT increases adding skill pts>

What about locked (or the SR3 equivalent) spells with Increase
Intelligence +4? Would you count those as well?
I brought up this up on IRC and it was general concensus (sp?)
that the INT boost should apply given the boost occured far enough back in
the characters history. Unfortunately, given that was WAY too fluid of a
period, the INT boost was to be considered a very recent event giving no
such bonus. Munchies may argue it's not fair, but munchies don't usually
get a lot of Knowledge skills anyways.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 37
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:01:43 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:17 AM 8/30/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>(This is _why_ I was so intent on getting a Hardback SR3; so I can
>>thwonk the rule abuser upside the head with it.)
>
>Nah. You'd just damage the hardback ... ;)

My SR2 hardback is in fine condition, even after years of using it for
the exact same purpose. I think one of the motivating reasons behind
why a munchkin goes munch in the first place is that typically in RL,
they're... how shall I put this? Fragile.

>>One of my players has a character background where his character was
>>seriously wounded during Desert Wars. There was some severe brain
>>trauma, and his mental faculties were severely diminished. He had an
>>encephalon put in to bring himself back up to where he was before,
but
>>it never was quite the same.
>
>Really? Nifty. I've got a char that's color blind from her time in
the
>military ... she's was in Desert Wars too (one of them ... :) What
side
>was the aforementioned PC on? Mine was on Aztechnology's ... :)

Chase was on Ares' IIRC. Your char wouldn't happen to have been an
Attack Helicopter Pilot, would she? If she was, I think he'd like to
have a few words with her.

<<Snip>>
>Hmm ... How about this? (Natural INT)*5 for Knowledge skills with
any
>normal restrictions and (INT boosts from `ware)*5 for Knowledge
skills
>with the additional restriction that they can only go towards hobby
type
>skills.

<<Snip>>
>Sound good?
>
>Btw, would you allow the INT boost from Mneumonic Enhancers to give
even
>more points?

Right now, I'm more inclined to only allow 'ware boosts from
intelligence as an awarded bonus to players who have shown enough
roleplaying discipline with their past characters not to abuse the
advantage on the character they're currently generating.

Besides, the in-game effects of the 'ware in question can allow for
some pretty disgusting effects. Say a character has a particular
knowledge skill of 4, which by the Skill Ratings chart (p. 98-99,
BBB3) means they have a "Well-Rounded" grasp of that particular field.
This character also happens to have a Cerebral Booster-2,
Encephalon-4, and Mnemonic-6. The character could actually roll 11
dice for the knowledge skill roll: 4 for the skill, 4 for the task
pool, and 3 for the Mnemonic (+1 dice per every 2 levels of Mnemonic,
when rolling a knowledge skill test.) This is three _more_ dice than
someone with a "Genius" level of that same knowledge would get,
according to the Skill Ratings Chart.

More conservatively, even one or two extra knowledge skill dice from
'ware can have a powerful effect, if considered against the Skill
Ratings chart. The difference between 4 dice and 5 dice might not seem
like much, but it's the difference between someone who only has a
"Well Rounded" understanding of a subject, and someone who "know(s)
more than they don't know" about the subject.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 38
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:20:49 EDT
Greetings!!!

Until Man and Machine comes out, it will all depend on what your individual GM
wants to allow or disallow. Most likely after the book comes out, it will
still be up to the GM.

We should also keep in mind when certain pieces of cyberware and Bioware
become generally available in the campaign, which could affect when a
character could get his hands on it.

In my 6 year camapign, Bioware was not generally available to late '54, before
that a few corporate types could only get it. Same thing with some of the
various pieces of cyberware in the ShadowTech book.

Just some thoughts.

-Bandit
Message no. 39
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:02:58 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:20 PM 8/30/98 -0400, Bandit wrote:
>We should also keep in mind when certain pieces of cyberware and
Bioware
>become generally available in the campaign, which could affect when a
>character could get his hands on it.
>
>In my 6 year camapign, Bioware was not generally available to late
'54, before
>that a few corporate types could only get it. Same thing with some of
the
>various pieces of cyberware in the ShadowTech book.

Yet another reason why Character Creation should be a cooperative
process between player and GM.
For example, in my own campaign, while bioware didn't hit mass market
until First Quarter '53, Encephalons had been around as long as
datajacks and headware memory.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 40
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:10:15 EDT
In a message dated 8/31/98 1:03:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> Yet another reason why Character Creation should be a cooperative
> process between player and GM.

I agree :)

It would be great if FASA would give us a better time line as to when certain
gear should be avialable in various markets.

> For example, in my own campaign, while bioware didn't hit mass market
> until First Quarter '53, Encephalons had been around as long as
> datajacks and headware memory.

I would have loved to gone that route, but when ShadowTech came out I had
already hit middle of '53 in my game.

-Bandit
Message no. 41
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:04:00 -0400
M. Sean Martinez wrote:
>
> It would be great if FASA would give us a better time line as to when certain
> gear should be avialable in various markets.

Why? That seems like a GM's prerogative... FASA couldn't possibly know
better than I do what my campaign's needs and tone are. If technology
advancement is important to your campaign, make up your own timeline. I
think for a lot of GM's, though, the state of the art advances slowly and
transparently.

E.g.: When I started my last campaign a year ago, I declared flat-out that
the PC's had never heard of cybermancy, and that most of the
_Cybertechnology_ toys were unavailable to them, although it was 2057 in
my game world and the book had been out for a long time. Throughout the
campaign they saw a cyberzombie exactly once, and the characters had no
idea what to make of it. For all they knew it was the only one in the
world (and that possibility would, in fact, have made a certain amount of
sense.) It was a high-powered campaign, but I decided for various reasons
that cybermancy just didn't fit it that well.

My next campaign will be very low-power, in 2060, and if any of the
characters even hears of a delta-grade clinic it'll probably be just as
the bullet is whizzing toward his head. >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR3] INT-boosting 'ware at CharGen
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:43:44 +0100
M. Sean Martinez said on 13:10/31 Aug 98,...

> It would be great if FASA would give us a better time line as to when certain
> gear should be avialable in various markets.

<plug> Check my page for files containing first and last dates for
all the sourcebooks I could get them for (but now I realize I
missed Prime Runners -- or doesn't that have shadowcomments
in it?). Anyway, the URL is
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/sourcebook dates.html. </plug>

--
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Further Reading

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