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From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:54:38 -0400

Message no. 1 Shaun Gilroy wrote:
> How-bout the fact that many, many more guns sell than swords and knives?
> Katanas are man-forged, not mass produced(if they were mass-produced, they
> wouldn't be much better than a standard western sword), and I'd bet there
> are fewer Katana-forgers :) in 2060.

...and, in fact, katanas AREN'T universally better than a European
sword. High-quality katanas are good swords. High-quality European swords
are good swords. Crap (and yes, there ARE crappy katanas) is crap no
matter where it comes from. The fact that katanas do more damage in SR
than European swords I attribute to either a) the designers innocently
buying into the Sooper Neenja Death Sword myth or b) the designers wanting
to encourage people to use katanas because they're better suited to the
'feel' of the setting than a European (hey, or African!) sword would be.
I'm hoping it's B, because I think the folks who write
Shadowrun are pretty smart people. But A crops up in a LOT of rpgs.
For some discussion of this topic by an internationally-known
swordfighter and blacksmith, see:

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/hype.htm

On a slightly different facet of the actual topic at hand, swords
actually intended for combat probably sell in far greater numbers in 2060
than they do in 1998. Right now, basically no one uses a sword for combat,
unless they're a collector and they get attacked in their own den. In 2060,
with the existance of creatures which can only be easilly injured in
hand-to-hand combat, melee weapons in general are probably a lot more
common.

--Sean

From:	Lutz Behnke <behnke@***********.DE>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:27:23 +0200

Message no. 2 Sean McCrohan wrote:

> Shaun Gilroy wrote:
> > How-bout the fact that many, many more guns sell than swords and knives?
> > Katanas are man-forged, not mass produced(if they were mass-produced, they
> > wouldn't be much better than a standard western sword), and I'd bet there
> > are fewer Katana-forgers :) in 2060.
>
> ...and, in fact, katanas AREN'T universally better than a European
> sword. High-quality katanas are good swords. High-quality European swords
> are good swords. Crap (and yes, there ARE crappy katanas) is crap no
> matter where it comes from. The fact that katanas do more damage in SR
> than European swords I attribute to either a) the designers innocently
> buying into the Sooper Neenja Death Sword myth or b) the designers wanting
> to encourage people to use katanas because they're better suited to the
> 'feel' of the setting than a European (hey, or African!) sword would be.
> I'm hoping it's B, because I think the folks who write

I do not doubt they are smart, but even the B option is not much better.

There is nothing wrong with the style of, for instance the Ork from Hell, a
former member of a biker gang that
is digging medieval Knights big time: they are the only bikers to wear helmets
all the time, fitted
with a plumage of course, and wielding a bastard sword (Dikote as an Option)
while riding at ya
@ 50 kpm. Don't loose yer head B-)

Maybe us 'old world' people, playing in old world places ( can you say
'Deutschland in den Schatten'?)
have no problem with fitting and feeling the SR feel with non-japanese elements

- burn

From:	John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:26:29 -0500

Message no. 3 Sean McCrohan wrote:
> ...and, in fact, katanas AREN'T universally better than a European
> sword. High-quality katanas are good swords. High-quality European swords
> are good swords. Crap (and yes, there ARE crappy katanas) is crap no
> matter where it comes from. The fact that katanas do more damage in SR
> than European swords I attribute to either a) the designers innocently
> buying into the Sooper Neenja Death Sword myth or b) the designers wanting
> to encourage people to use katanas because they're better suited to the
> 'feel' of the setting than a European (hey, or African!) sword would be.

Or, possibly, C: 'Sword' in the gear section refers not to European-style swords
in general, but to one-handed/short swords (implied by the description in SR2,
page 236) and extra large knives -- so a Japanese wakizashi, a Roman gladius and
a European shortsword are labeled 'swords', while 'katana' refers only to the
two-handed Japanese sword called a (surprise!) katana (although a tachi was very
similar, so you could probably lump it in here as well).

For those too lazy, too far from their books or otherwise too inconvenienced to
look it up:), the ref from SR2 read as below:

"Sword: This refers to any of a variety of ceremonial styles and also covers
some of the longer and more vicious knives."

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!

From:	Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:19:10 +0800

Message no. 4 On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:26:29 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:

>Or, possibly, C: 'Sword' in the gear section refers not to European-style swords
>in general, but to one-handed/short swords (implied by the description in SR2,
>page 236) and extra large knives -- so a Japanese wakizashi, a Roman gladius and
>a European shortsword are labeled 'swords', while 'katana' refers only to the
>two-handed Japanese sword called a (surprise!) katana (although a tachi was very
>similar, so you could probably lump it in here as well).
>
>For those too lazy, too far from their books or otherwise too inconvenienced to
>look it up:), the ref from SR2 read as below:
>
>"Sword: This refers to any of a variety of ceremonial styles and also covers
>some of the longer and more vicious knives."

Same reference in my BABY, but there is a seperate reference for the Katana

Katana: The two handed "samurai" sword favoured by those with a taste for the
romantic
and old fashioned.

And on the damge chart sword is listed as (strength +2)M and Katana as (Strength +3)M

Properly speaking, the Katana is a hand and a half sword. It is designed to be primarily
used two handed, but it can be used reasonably effectively with one hand, similar to the
European Bastard Sword, also similar in size. The Europeans also had two handed
swords (such as the claymore (Cleadmhor)) which are considerably larger and can only
be used two handed. On this trust me, I have a claymore, it can ONLY be used with any
effect two handed.

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:46:53 -0700

Message no. 5 :Or, possibly, C: 'Sword' in the gear section refers not to European-style
swords
:in general, but to one-handed/short swords (implied by the description in
SR2,
:page 236) and extra large knives -- so a Japanese wakizashi, a Roman
gladius and
:a European shortsword are labeled 'swords', while 'katana' refers only to
the
:two-handed Japanese sword called a (surprise!) katana (although a tachi
was very
:similar, so you could probably lump it in here as well).
:

Except that SR swords wiegh MORE than katana. A wakizashi is (by
defintion) lighter.

:For those too lazy, too far from their books or otherwise too
inconvenienced to
:look it up:), the ref from SR2 read as below:
:
:"Sword: This refers to any of a variety of ceremonial styles and also
covers
:some of the longer and more vicious knives."

Certainly, we allow katana stats fo really nice Euro-swords, and had a
family hierloom claymoore in use once (reach 2, str+4 m). The user (me)
liked it enough to want one of his own, till we decided the price for an
equivalent would be more than 15,000 (iirc), and the purchase rather high
profile for my taste. Would be hellish inconvienient for most runs,
anyhow. Then again, that's a pis-drop compared to a weapon fucus, and it
really sliced up spirits...

Mongoose

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:52:15 -0400

Message no. 6 > Properly speaking, the Katana is a hand and a half sword. It is designed to be
primarily
> used two handed, but it can be used reasonably effectively with one hand, similar to
the
> European Bastard Sword, also similar in size. The Europeans also had two handed
> swords (such as the claymore (Cleadmhor)) which are considerably larger and can only
> be used two handed. On this trust me, I have a claymore, it can ONLY be used with any
> effect two handed.

Yeah...I'd personally have been happier with entries for 'large sword'
and 'small sword', with some examples of each in the descriptions. That
would have contributed less to immediate misunderstanding of why the damage
ratings were different :)

--Sean

From:	John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:49:27 -0500

Message no. 7 Mongoose wrote:

> Except that SR swords wiegh MORE than katana. A wakizashi is (by
> defintion) lighter.

According to SR2 (and most estimates I've seen/heard), a katana weighs about 2
pounds, give or take. A sword, again by SR2, weighs the same (one kilogram
versus one kilogram). Not more. And, please, for the love of God, stop
nitpicking. We both know that it's a *general* category and that the stats
represent an archetypal sword -- they aren't necessarily intended to represent
an exact modeling of every possible type of one-handed bladed weapon over the
length of 30 or so centimeters. Yes, a wakizashi is lighter. It's also not
specifically listed. What about the epee? Those weigh lots (not:).

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:40:04 -0500

Message no. 8 ----------
> From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
>
> Yeah...I'd personally have been happier with entries for 'large
sword'
> and 'small sword', with some examples of each in the descriptions. That
> would have contributed less to immediate misunderstanding of why the
damage
> ratings were different :)

Personally, I'd rather see small, medium, and
my-god-is-that-supposed-to-be-used-on-a-living-being-or-a-main-battle-tank
(or something similar). I think you can find enough runners with a
Highlander fetish to start delineating the more exotic weapons, even if it
just a net.book (though I would love to see something official).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:06:00 -0500

Message no. 9 On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:27:23 +0200 Lutz Behnke <behnke@***********.DE>
writes:
>Sean McCrohan wrote:
<SNIP>
>> ...and, in fact, katanas AREN'T universally better than a
European
>> sword. High-quality katanas are good swords. High-quality European
swords
>> are good swords. Crap (and yes, there ARE crappy katanas) is crap no
>> matter where it comes from. The fact that katanas do more damage in SR
>> than European swords I attribute to either a) the designers innocently
>> buying into the Sooper Neenja Death Sword myth or b) the designers
wanting
>> to encourage people to use katanas because they're better suited to
the
>> 'feel' of the setting than a European (hey, or African!) sword would
be.
>> I'm hoping it's B, because I think the folks who write

>I do not doubt they are smart, but even the B option is not much
>better.
>
<SNIP>
>Maybe us 'old world' people, playing in old world places ( can you say
>'Deutschland in den Schatten'?)
>have no problem with fitting and feeling the SR feel with non-japanese
>elements
<SNIP>

How about simply saying that swords have 3 qualtity ratings. POS,
Average, and Fine.

POS gives -1 to power but cuts costs in half.
Average gives no modifiers.
Fine gives +1 to power but doubles the cost and the Street Index, adds 1
to the Availability T# and doubles the base time to find the item.

What's all this mean? That an average katana has the same stats a
western sword but there is a higher incidence of superior quality amongst
katanas ...

Optionally, you could add the Unique quality rating in which the cost,
availability, etc would sky-rocket and may have some special
characteristcs. (ie, half wt, additional +1 to Power, double tensile
strength [fullerene katana, anyone?]...)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:17:39 -0400

Message no. 10 > Personally, I'd rather see small, medium, and
> my-god-is-that-supposed-to-be-used-on-a-living-being-or-a-main-battle-tank
> (or something similar). I think you can find enough runners with a
> Highlander fetish to start delineating the more exotic weapons, even if it
> just a net.book (though I would love to see something official).
>
> ***************
> Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
> aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars

I have most of the reference material I think I'll need for this -
I'll work something up and submit it for review by the list. Folks with a
weapon they absolutely want included can tell me and I'll hunt up details
on it.
General question - I'm sure this has been covered before, but I
only recently joined the list. What's the commonly-accepted conversion
rate between nuyen and today's US$ ? I've been meaning to figure that out
so I can come up with a list of salaries for Ordinary Folks in 2060
(to put shadowrunning pay in perspective), but I'll need it to get the right
prices for the weapons, too.

--Sean

From:	John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:12:56 -0500

Message no. 11 Sean McCrohan wrote:
> I have most of the reference material I think I'll need for this -
> I'll work something up and submit it for review by the list. Folks with a
> weapon they absolutely want included can tell me and I'll hunt up details
> on it.

Well, IMHO, a sword is a sword is a sword, within reason (a gladius is pretty
close to a type IV shortsword is pretty close to a wakizashi, a hand and a half
is pretty close to a katana is pretty close to a scimitar, and a cleadheamohr is
pretty close to a no-dachi is more or less like any other two-hander you care to
name. IMHO. YMMV). But, just for fun, howsabout:

A Gurkha sword/knife
Roman gladius
tachi*
no-dachi*
Tai Chi sword
saber
rapier
cut and thrust sword (was often paired with a main gauche -- a dagger)
Landshnekt (I'm pretty sure I butchered *that* spelling) sword (6 foot long
'two' hander:)
epee
scimitar
Katar* (a Persian push dagger, blade was about 12 to 18 inches long, IIRC)
ninja-to
chokuto (similar to and preceded the katana and tachi, but was straight, rather
than curved)
falchion (*not* just a generic sword, btw, but an *old* style of European blade)
* indicates ones I'd *really* like to see. The others are just for fun:)

> General question - I'm sure this has been covered before, but I
> only recently joined the list. What's the commonly-accepted conversion
> rate between nuyen and today's US$ ? I've been meaning to figure that out
> so I can come up with a list of salaries for Ordinary Folks in 2060
> (to put shadowrunning pay in perspective), but I'll need it to get the right
> prices for the weapons, too.

FASA said (last I heard, anyway) to assume about a 1 to 1 conversion, dollar$ to
nu¥en.

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:06:33 -0400

Message no. 12 Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> General question - I'm sure this has been covered before, but I
> only recently joined the list. What's the commonly-accepted conversion
> rate between nuyen and today's US$ ? I've been meaning to figure that out
> so I can come up with a list of salaries for Ordinary Folks in 2060
> (to put shadowrunning pay in perspective), but I'll need it to get the right
> prices for the weapons, too.

Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table is a bit
unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:38:56 -0400

Message no. 13 Steve Eley went on the record as saying:
> Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
> fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table is a bit
> unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->

*blink* Do you mean 5 nuyen per dollar, maybe? (I was talking about
1998 US$, btw, not 2060 UCAS$) Middle life style costs 5000 Y/month. If
we're conservative and assume that people are spending 85% of their income
on their lifestyle and 15% is being saved or spent on other things, that
means that the average middle-class 2060's individual makes ~ 6000 Y/month,
or 72000 Y / year. Exactly what we'd call a middle-class salary today is
open to debate, but for a person living alone, it's probably somewhere in
the neighborhood of $30000-$50000, varying heavily depending on the cost
of living in your area. That's somewhere around $2/Y.
Unless I missed something obvious?

--Sean

From:	Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:48:55 -0600

Message no. 14 At 23:06 9/14/98 -0400, Steve Eley wrote

>Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
>fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table is
a bit
>unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->

Pardon?

According to FASA, one current american dollar equals one nuyen, for
simplicities sake. (This is unofficial from the Tom Dowd days, I believe.)

-Adam J
-
< TSS Productions down - New URL Soon! / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "Raven loves me! He just bought me a new rubber ducky!" - Lodi >
< TSS : ftp://thor.flashpt.com/pub/srun/ShadowrunSupplemental/pdf >

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:53:09 -0400

Message no. 15 John Pederson wrote:
> A Gurkha sword/knife
These are called kukri. Most of them are knife-sized, but a few of
them get up to shortsword lengths.

> Landshnekt (I'm pretty sure I butchered *that* spelling) sword (6 foot long
> 'two' hander:)
I know the one you mean. They're usually called zweihanders (that's
German for 'two-hander' - creative namers, those Germans :} ). The
Landsknecht were the people who used them - essentially, heavy infantry.
IIRC, most of them were mercenaries. With all the factionalism in medieval
and renaissance Germany, mercenaries were busy folks.

I should be able to find prices and such for all of the things you
listed...damage ratings will be a judgement call, obviously, but people
can correct me if I seem too far off base.

--Sean

From:	Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:32:57 PDT

Message no. 16 >Sean McCrohan wrote:
>>
>> General question - I'm sure this has been covered before, but
I
>> only recently joined the list. What's the commonly-accepted
conversion
>> rate between nuyen and today's US$ ? I've been meaning to figure that
out
>> so I can come up with a list of salaries for Ordinary Folks in 2060
>> (to put shadowrunning pay in perspective), but I'll need it to get
the right
>> prices for the weapons, too.
>
>Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
>fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table
is a bit
>unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->
>
>
>Have Fun,
> - Steve Eley
> sfeley@***.net
>
That table is for UCAS dollars. As someone else posted earlier the
conversion from 1998 $ to 2060 nuyen is equal. It makes dealing with
item prices for items that are not on equipment lists simple.

______________________________________________________
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From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 03:21:22 EDT

Message no. 17 In a message dated 9/14/1998 10:51:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
adamj@*********.HTML.COM writes:

> Pardon?
>
> According to FASA, one current american dollar equals one nuyen, for
> simplicities sake. (This is unofficial from the Tom Dowd days, I believe.)
>
Actually, the last I knew (which was early second ed btw) was that 2 UCAS
dollars equalled 1 Nuyen.

-K

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:16:20 -0500

Message no. 18 On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:38:56 -0400 Sean McCrohan
<mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU> writes:
>Steve Eley went on the record as saying:
>>Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
>>fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table
is a
>>bit
>>unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->

> *blink* Do you mean 5 nuyen per dollar, maybe? (I was talking
about
>1998 US$, btw, not 2060 UCAS$) Middle life style costs 5000 Y/month. If
>we're conservative and assume that people are spending 85% of their
income
>on their lifestyle and 15% is being saved or spent on other things, that
>means that the average middle-class 2060's individual makes ~ 6000
Y/month,
>or 72000 Y / year. Exactly what we'd call a middle-class salary today is
>open to debate, but for a person living alone, it's probably somewhere
in
>the neighborhood of $30000-$50000, varying heavily depending on the cost
>of living in your area. That's somewhere around $2/Y.
> Unless I missed something obvious?
>
> --Sean

The general accepted conversion (ie, If such-and-such cost x $US, what's
it in Shadowrun nuyen?) is 1 US dollar = 1 Shadowrun nuyen. This is
based on the McHughs prices in NAGtRL, IIRC.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:06:56 -0400

Message no. 19 On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Steve Eley wrote:

->Sean McCrohan wrote:
->>
->> General question - I'm sure this has been covered before, but I
->> only recently joined the list. What's the commonly-accepted conversion
->> rate between nuyen and today's US$ ? I've been meaning to figure that out
->> so I can come up with a list of salaries for Ordinary Folks in 2060
->> (to put shadowrunning pay in perspective), but I'll need it to get the right
->> prices for the weapons, too.
->
->Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
->fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table is a bit
->unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->

THat deals with 2060 currency, after 60 years of inflation. I
believe he's speaking of current currency to nuyen.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:14:17 -0400

Message no. 20 On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

->Steve Eley went on the record as saying:
->> Five dollars to one nuyen, more or less. There's a table for currency
->> fluctuations in Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America, but that table is a bit
->> unrealistic; I prefer to keep things simple. >8->
->
-> *blink* Do you mean 5 nuyen per dollar, maybe? (I was talking about
->1998 US$, btw, not 2060 UCAS$) Middle life style costs 5000 Y/month. If
->we're conservative and assume that people are spending 85% of their income
->on their lifestyle and 15% is being saved or spent on other things, that
->means that the average middle-class 2060's individual makes ~ 6000 Y/month,
->or 72000 Y / year. Exactly what we'd call a middle-class salary today is
->open to debate, but for a person living alone, it's probably somewhere in
->the neighborhood of $30000-$50000, varying heavily depending on the cost
->of living in your area. That's somewhere around $2/Y.
-> Unless I missed something obvious?

Yep, you did. Lifestyle costs went up in 60 years too. I'm
living faily well off, even supporting my wife completely, at $1200 a
month. In 2060, with 400% inflation (x5 current prices), that'd be 6000
Nuyen (5000 Nuyen + 1000 Nuyen incedentals, we have cable and all).
Middle lifestyle all the way.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:10:57 -0400

Message no. 21 Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> *blink* Do you mean 5 nuyen per dollar, maybe? (I was talking about
> 1998 US$, btw, not 2060 UCAS$)

Ahh. In that case, everyone else is right; the "real-world" conversion is
about a dollar to the nuyen. My brain spasmed and I forgot why you were
asking, and I was thinking you meant Shadowrun UCAS dollars.

Good to see you on the list, by the way. >8->

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Japanese Superswords (Was: Smartgun Link Operations)
Date:	Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:17:53 -0400

Message no. 22 Fixer wrote:
> Yep, you did. Lifestyle costs went up in 60 years too. I'm
> living faily well off, even supporting my wife completely, at $1200 a
> month. In 2060, with 400% inflation (x5 current prices), that'd be 6000
> Nuyen (5000 Nuyen + 1000 Nuyen incedentals, we have cable and all).
> Middle lifestyle all the way.

Which would make the appropriate conversion US$1 (1998)=5Y (2060),
correct? Buying power's the only sort of equivilancy that matters
for currency - that's why I was looking at the lifestyle costs as a
baseline. The prices of individual items will vary both with inflation and
with technology, but the basic cost of living (since it's a combination
of things) will stay about the same, changing only for inflation. If living
becomes cheaper, standards just go up, and costs remain about the same.
There seems to be some disagreement on the conversion - in
theory, it's supposed to be 1 Y (2060) = $1 (1998) (or is that 1994?),
but that doesn't fit with the prices. I think it's somewhere between
2Y=$1 and 5Y=$1, but I'm not sure where. Anyone else have an opinion?

--Sean

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