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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:40:20 -0600
I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 2
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:44:37 -0400
David Buehrer once dared to write,

>I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
>attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
>increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
>characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

Still somewhat abuseable that way as well. My house rule (and
somebody else's on the list as well so it's got to be good B>]# ) is that
every increase in attributes after CharGen costs new attribute level
times the number of increase it is. Therefor the first increase is the
standard 1 times, the second is 2 times, the third is 3 times, etc. This
greatly discourages starting with lower stats and working your way up to
straight 6's. This was a problem in our games here until we added that
rule. Something like this would be great in SR3.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 3
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:38:48 -0700
| I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
| attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
| increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
| characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

This reminded me of a new house rule that our group came up with...i'd be
interested to get some feedback on it actually. It may be a little
convoluted so if it isn't slear just yell at me and i'll try to explain.

Basically this ruling came about after several other alternatives fell by
the way side, and we still wanted to offer some advantage for the guy who
spent all those points on attributes at character creation.

Note: We do allow characters to raise attributes to 1.5 times the racial
maximum for double karma.

Okay we have it set up now that a character can only raise his attributes
to 1.5 times what they started at. ie: Caric the street mage :) starts his
career with a strength attribute of 2...the highest he could ever go is now
3 (2x1.5=3) in the case of odd numbers we round up. (we know this is very
anti-FASAish, but forgive us please) Now if you start with an att or 1 the
highest it will ever go is 2. This makes the attribute spells and the
muscle replacement/augmentation a little bit more in line for us and more
useful. Now a character starting with an attribute at 6 can go as high as
9, but when they go above the racial maximum it does cost twice as much
karma. So Nightlife our intrepid friend starts his career with a strength
of 5...he can go as high as 8. The change from 5 to 6 costs him 6
karma...from 6 to 7 costs 14. Racial and personal maximums are modified
for the other races as well.

Well I hope that was clear as mud for ya. :)

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:21:09 -0600
MC23 wrote:
|
| David Buehrer once dared to write,
|
[snip: x2 vs x1 for cost to increase Attributes]
|
| Still somewhat abuseable that way as well. My house rule (and
| somebody else's on the list as well so it's got to be good B>]# ) is that
| every increase in attributes after CharGen costs new attribute level
| times the number of increase it is. Therefor the first increase is the
| standard 1 times, the second is 2 times, the third is 3 times, etc. This
| greatly discourages starting with lower stats and working your way up to
| straight 6's. This was a problem in our games here until we added that
| rule. Something like this would be great in SR3.

Doh! I forgot about that one (suprise :) Question: do you apply the
x2 multiplier when increasing stats beyond racial maximum in addition
to the multiplier per increase? I.e., if a character started at 6,
increased to 7, and now wants to increase to 8 does it cost (8 x2 x2)
32 karma?

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:32:01 -0600
Caric wrote:
|
| This reminded me of a new house rule that our group came up with...i'd be
| interested to get some feedback on it actually. It may be a little
| convoluted so if it isn't slear just yell at me and i'll try to explain.
|
[snip]
|
| Okay we have it set up now that a character can only raise his attributes
| to 1.5 times what they started at. ie: Caric the street mage :) starts his

I don't know about that. Per your system if a character starts with a
Strength of 1, he's stuck with it. Arnold S. was a fairly skinny guy
before he started working out, and look what he accomplished. I feel that
if you take the time and effort (karma) you can improve any attribute to
any level, up to a point (racial maximum).

I prefer the "multiplier equals the number of increases" house rule.

:)
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 6
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:47:46 +0100
|
|I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
|attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
|increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
|characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

Then implement the old 1st ed rule.

(That's probably why it's only x1 in the first place...)

"Attributes can only by raised once each with karma...."

Munch out of that one....

:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:56:03 -0800
At 07:40 7/8/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
>attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
>increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
>characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

The house rule my group uses is that you can increase your stats by 3
points at the most, with an absolute upper limit of 1.5 racial maximum,
paying double karma when you go over racial maximum. (So a Troll can't
raise their Charisma over 6 even if they started at 4, and someone who
starts with Strength 1 will never see Strength 5 without some 'ware or
magic.)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:03:35 -0500
At 10:44 AM 7/8/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>David Buehrer once dared to write,
>>I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
>>attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
>>increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
>>characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

>Still somewhat abuseable that way as well. My house rule (and
>somebody else's on the list as well so it's got to be good B>]# ) is that
>every increase in attributes after CharGen costs new attribute level
>times the number of increase it is. Therefor the first increase is the
>standard 1 times, the second is 2 times, the third is 3 times, etc. This
>greatly discourages starting with lower stats and working your way up to
>straight 6's. This was a problem in our games here until we added that
>rule. Something like this would be great in SR3.

That was my house rule... heh.

I also add in that attributes are raised from the "base" stat not the
"post-mod" value. So a troll's base body would be 5 less and his base
intelligence would be 2 more. Thus, it becomes racially balanced (it's
tough to become a smart troll, but not tough to become a durable one).
Humans kind of get the shaft here, but the GM can always play up anti-meta
racism a bit to counteract that.

It works for me, anyway :)
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 9
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:02:14 -0500
At 08-Jul-97 wrote David Buehrer:

>I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
>attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
>increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
>characters start to look the same (stat-wise).

Agreed, how about x1 for 1-3 x2 for 4-5 and x3 for 6+?
This should prevent characters go to far from the norm to fast.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 10
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:33:07 -1000
> 1 multiplier for stats...
we upgrade the multiplier for each improvement.
Example: Bob has a Strength of 3, and wants to upgrade to 4. Nil sweat,
just toss 4 karma in there. Later he wants to upgrade to 5, a little
tougher (mult: x2), but not too painful at 10. Finally he wants to max
out at 6, that'll cost him 18 karma at multiplier of 3.
This has kept most of our weenie characters weenies, and doesn't let our
deckers really compete with the street sams. Which has happened in games
o' mine before. (Yikes!)
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:27:34 GMT
David Buehrer writes
> [snip: x2 vs x1 for cost to increase Attributes]
> |
> | Still somewhat abuseable that way as well. My house rule (and
> | somebody else's on the list as well so it's got to be good B>]# ) is that
> | every increase in attributes after CharGen costs new attribute level
> | times the number of increase it is. Therefor the first increase is the
> | standard 1 times, the second is 2 times, the third is 3 times, etc. This
> | greatly discourages starting with lower stats and working your way up to
> | straight 6's. This was a problem in our games here until we added that
> | rule. Something like this would be great in SR3.
>
> Doh! I forgot about that one (suprise :) Question: do you apply the
> x2 multiplier when increasing stats beyond racial maximum in addition
> to the multiplier per increase? I.e., if a character started at 6,
> increased to 7, and now wants to increase to 8 does it cost (8 x2 x2)
> 32 karma?
>
I have been using this, including FASA's *2 for beyond racial
maximum, so a Humans quickness starting at 6 is 14 (7*2) to get to 7
(as per the book) and 32 (8*2(FASA)*2(house rule)) for 8, and folks
still do it.
It does make having high attributes at startup worthwhile (by SR2 low
attributes is best if you can live through a couple of runs to buy
them up) and it gives the mundanes a serious advantage as the cost is
sufficiently prohibitive to really make the magicians think.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:07:28 -0600
Well, I must be annal :) cuz I charted out the different costs for the
current rules for increasing attributes, using a x2 cost multiplier, going
the incremental route but with no additional modifier for above racial max,
and incremental with an additional x2 above racial max. The short of it
is (assuming a Human character):

Rules as is: 1 to 9 = total of 68
6 to 9 = total of 48
x2: 1 to 9 = 136
6 to 9 = 96
Incremental, no x2 >racial: 1 to 9 = 240
6 to 9 = 50
Incremental, x2 >racial: 1 to 9 = 410
6 to 9 = 100

The short of it is, IMHO, with the rules as is its way to cheap to increase
attributes. Requiring and additional x2ZZ

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:32:31 -0600
David Buehrer wrote:
|
| Well, I must be annal :) cuz I charted out the different costs for the
| current rules for increasing attributes, using a x2 cost multiplier, going
| the incremental route but with no additional modifier for above racial max,
| and incremental with an additional x2 above racial max. The short of it
| is (assuming a Human character):
|
| Rules as is: 1 to 9 = total of 68
1 to 6 = total of 20
| 6 to 9 = total of 48
| x2: 1 to 9 = 136
1 to 6 = 40
| 6 to 9 = 96
| Incremental, no x2 >racial: 1 to 9 = 240
1 to 6 = 70
| 6 to 9 = 50
| Incremental, x2 >racial: 1 to 9 = 410
1 to 6 = 70
| 6 to 9 = 100
|
| The short of it is, IMHO, with the rules as is its way to cheap to increase
| attributes. Requiring and additional x2ZZ

Well, that's what happens when your boss suprises you :)

...Requiring an additional x2 brings it up to a reasonable level, but
going from 1 to 6 for only 40 karma is a little low for me.

Incramental without the x2 above racial maximum puts the numbers where I
like them.

Using the x2 above racial maximum for incramental increases puts
anything above racial maximum out of reach, IMO. However, I like
to run a Heroic game :)

Anyway, Steve, please think about bringing this up.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he is
using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it as a
foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 14
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:10:08 -0700
---MC23 wrote:
>
> Still somewhat abuseable that way as well. My house rule (and
> somebody else's on the list as well so it's got to be good B>]# ) is
that
> every increase in attributes after CharGen costs new attribute level
> times the number of increase it is. Therefor the first increase is
the
> standard 1 times, the second is 2 times, the third is 3 times, etc.
This
> greatly discourages starting with lower stats and working your way
up to
> straight 6's. This was a problem in our games here until we added
that
> rule. Something like this would be great in SR3.

A personal pet peeve of mine has become a group of runners that very
shortly all end up running at racial max's: sammies, mages and deckers
alike. We had instituted the same house rule you describe above, but
just recently revoked it under playtesting for the system Caric has
explained. Under the above system, they can still all max out, it just
costs alot.

Basically, racial max's and karma cost for raising attributes stand as
listed in the BBB. However, each character has his own personal cap on
how far he can raise each attribute equal to 1.5x it's starting value
(rounded up). Mind you the 1.5x limit is after factoring in racial
modifiers at character creation.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 15
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:33:48 -0700
---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Caric wrote:
> |
> | Okay we have it set up now that a character can only raise his
attributes
> | to 1.5 times what they started at. ie: Caric the street mage :)
starts his
>
> I don't know about that. Per your system if a character starts with
a
> Strength of 1, he's stuck with it. Arnold S. was a fairly skinny guy
> before he started working out, and look what he accomplished. I
feel that
> if you take the time and effort (karma) you can improve any
attribute to
> any level, up to a point (racial maximum).

Keep in mind what the attribute levels represent. A 6 is the biggest
buffest human known...racial max. Arnie may be a 6, but he may be
closer to 5.

Granted he wasn't always that buff, and and as you said he started out
skinny. However, he was skinny with the potential to reach what he is
today. I wouldn't say he was a sickly or frail skinny...like what a
body of 1 or 2 might represent. I'd say he was this or that side of
average...a 3 or 4 which in our system means he'd achieve a 5 or 6
personal limit (and thus having the potential to achieve human racial
max).

This is what we're trying to regulate in our game. I can't a husk of a
preson with a body of 1 pumping up to arnies status and a body of 6.
Likewise someone with an I.Q. of 90 could hit the books and study
courses, possibly achieving an I.Q. of 115...but I can't seem them
hitting a 130 or higher.

Anyways, this is what we are trying to represent in our game.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 16
From: "David J. Browne Jr" <Ronin55444@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:42:32 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-08 20:04:17 EDT, you write:

<< I just remembered a gripe of mine. The x1 multiplier for increasing
| attributes with karma. I'd like to see a x2 multiplier for
| increasing attributes. With a x1 it doesn't take long before all the
| characters start to look the same (stat-wise). >>


I use a x2 multiplier for increasing skills and attributes.... I also have my
players keep track of skill and attribute use... Basically they have to use
the skill or attrib current level x 2 time before I allow them to raise
it..... if they go x amount of time (varies per skill or attribute) then they
get penalities when they try to use it the next time..... (And I give my
players everyopportunity to use ALL skills and sttrib each session or
two.....) I laid this out to them before I implemented it and they said it
sounded fair and reasonable and it works.... they like it and they say that
it keeps them on their toes (about their charas skills and such)


Dave


If you need to be looking it up -- Maybe you shouldn't be playing with it.
Message no. 17
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:45:17 -0400
Loki once dared to write,

>A personal pet peeve of mine has become a group of runners that very
>shortly all end up running at racial max's: sammies, mages and deckers
>alike. We had instituted the same house rule you describe above, but
>just recently revoked it under playtesting for the system Caric has
>explained. Under the above system, they can still all max out, it just
>costs alot.

Then maybe the rate you give out Karma should be reviewed. My group
only gives out 2-3 Karma points a session as a general rule. Karma become
too valuable to spend on multiple increases that way. Maybe Karma awards
should be reviewed as well in SR3. They were never too clear to begin
with in either system. We ended up based the awards on Champions and
GURPS which gave us a level we were comfortable with. Besides, when you
set a limit on something, players do have a tendency to try to set
everything at that level. Why else would the rule of 6 at CharGen give so
many people so many problems. The rule itself is fine, but but people
still complain about players setting a lot of skills and such at 6.

>Basically, racial max's and karma cost for raising attributes stand as
>listed in the BBB. However, each character has his own personal cap on
>how far he can raise each attribute equal to 1.5x it's starting value
>(rounded up). Mind you the 1.5x limit is after factoring in racial
>modifiers at character creation.

And if you start with a stat of 1? I originally considered a +3 cap
before I opted for my current rule. I would argue that now you are
enticing players to start the game with higher stats with that rule. And
with that it sounds like you would get right back to every character with
attributes of 6. If not now then you will later.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:43:19 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
| Keep in mind what the attribute levels represent. A 6 is the biggest
| buffest human known...racial max. Arnie may be a 6, but he may be
| closer to 5.
|
| Granted he wasn't always that buff, and and as you said he started out
| skinny. However, he was skinny with the potential to reach what he is
| today. I wouldn't say he was a sickly or frail skinny...like what a
| body of 1 or 2 might represent. I'd say he was this or that side of
| average...a 3 or 4 which in our system means he'd achieve a 5 or 6
| personal limit (and thus having the potential to achieve human racial
| max).

Well, you're no fun :p :)

Good points one and all.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:17:33 EST
> Keep in mind what the attribute levels represent. A 6 is the biggest
> buffest human known...racial max. Arnie may be a 6, but he may be
> closer to 5.

I would disagree with this. 6 represents the Maximum Average, ( if
that makes sense). 1.5 times racial max is the buffest ever....max
is a REASONABLE buffest. anything above Racial Max is bloody rare,
and Racial Max is rare, but NOT buffest. I'd say about 25% of the
people going to top universities have the equivilant of INT 6. And
they aren't necessarily the most intelligent ever....just on the
highest end of reasonable.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 20
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:24:56 GMT
MC23 writes
>
> Then maybe the rate you give out Karma should be reviewed. My group
> only gives out 2-3 Karma points a session as a general rule. Karma become
> too valuable to spend on multiple increases that way. Maybe Karma awards
> should be reviewed as well in SR3. They were never too clear to begin
> with in either system.
The ones in the actual SR2 book are fine on the assumption everyone
gets the total kamra and adventures avarage about 3 3-4 hour
sessions. i.e. team = number of pints everyone gets base. There is
some confusion in places as to wetehr team points are divided amongst
the characters (in which case they are pitiful) or given to everyone.

Some of the published advenuters though disreguard the guidleins so
badly, some are worth about 20-30 a PC (often team awards of 5 or so
per bug/toxic shaman reduced to a messy smear) while others which are
twice as nasty award 6-12 each. A bit if GM rewriting using the SR2
awards scale can be much in order.

> We ended up based the awards on Champions and
> GURPS which gave us a level we were comfortable with. Besides, when you
> set a limit on something, players do have a tendency to try to set
> everything at that level. Why else would the rule of 6 at CharGen give so
> many people so many problems. The rule itself is fine, but but people
> still complain about players setting a lot of skills and such at 6.
>
Yes. The one thing about it though that need to be clear in 3rd
edition is is that 6 before or after concentrating and specialising?
I say after some say before, the book nothing.

> with that it sounds like you would get right back to every character with
> attributes of 6. If not now then you will later.
>
Which is why i use '1st FASA, 2nd double FASA, third tripple etc'
because unless you start with Attributes A all 6's in attributes
becomes prohibitively expensive and only the 'built like a tank'
sammies and merc who should thanks the amount of physical stuff they
do be hard as nails end up that way.

Mark
Message no. 21
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:51:31 -0400
Mark Steedman once dared to write,

>The ones in the actual SR2 book are fine on the assumption everyone
>gets the total karma and adventures average about 3 3-4 hour
>sessions. i.e. team = number of pints everyone gets base. There is
>some confusion in places as to whether team points are divided amongst
>the characters (in which case they are pitiful) or given to everyone.

Which is why clarity is important. That is also why we generally
threw out FASA's system for Karma awards and used what we're used to,
knowing it didn't unbalance the game.

>Some of the published adventures though disregard the guidelines so
>badly, some are worth about 20-30 a PC (often team awards of 5 or so
>per bug/toxic shaman reduced to a messy smear) while others which are
>twice as nasty award 6-12 each. A bit if GM rewriting using the SR2
>awards scale can be much in order.

Those adventures didn't help when it came to understanding the Karma
awards either. SR3 should treat this better.

>Yes. The one thing about it though that need to be clear in 3rd
>edition is is that 6 before or after concentrating and specializing?
>I say after some say before, the book nothing.

Without flipping through the book, I'm damn sure that it is the
unmodified (or should I say Pre-modified) skill stops at six. A modified
skill, or spell (or attribute for meta-humans) can then break the limit
of 6.

>Which is why i use '1st FASA, 2nd double FASA, third triple etc'
>because unless you start with Attributes A all 6's in attributes
>becomes prohibitively expensive and only the 'built like a tank'
>sammies and merc who should thanks the amount of physical stuff they
>do be hard as nails end up that way.

As I've said it works fine for me as well. Once or twice is fine and
a third increase is feasible if the stat was low to begin with. After
that It becomes too much for my friends to spend their points on.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:24:55 GMT
MC23 writes

> Mark Steedman once dared to write,
>
I have an automatic Carp launcher :)

> Which is why clarity is important. That is also why we generally
> threw out FASA's system for Karma awards and used what we're used to,
> knowing it didn't unbalance the game.
Fine though i have found the system in SR2 interpreted as 'karma per
runner' works fine. (unlike the award systems in some games)

> Without flipping through the book, I'm damn sure that it is the
> unmodified (or should I say Pre-modified) skill stops at six. A modified
> skill, or spell (or attribute for meta-humans) can then break the limit
> of 6.
>
For attributes sure, i don't think it says for skills.

Mark
Message no. 23
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:59:28 -0700
| MC23 writes
| >
| > Then maybe the rate you give out Karma should be reviewed. My
group
| > only gives out 2-3 Karma points a session as a general rule. Karma
become
| > too valuable to spend on multiple increases that way. Maybe Karma
awards
| > should be reviewed as well in SR3. They were never too clear to begin
| > with in either system.

As a player in Loki's game I can safely say that the karma awards for our
group are not out of hand, in fact several ppl in our group have voiced
concerns that they are to low. We probably average between
1-2 karma per gaming session depending of course on what we were doing. I
agree that they weren't too clear however. As far as the attribute
raising, Loki may have been misleading in the time frame. What we wanted
to avoid is all characters having the same potential for their attributes.
It went against the players who had used the points to start with higher
attributes. If you start with a strength of 1 I just can't see you getting
it to 9 eventually...or even 6. Now you can go to 2 (we round up) and if
you want higher than that, get some 'ware, or use magic. It also helps
keep down the guys with attributes of 14 and 15 as humans, you may see one
every once in a blue moon, but VERY rarely.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
Message no. 24
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:41:54 -0700
---Brett Borger wrote:
>
> I would disagree with this. 6 represents the Maximum Average, ( if
> that makes sense). 1.5 times racial max is the buffest ever....max
> is a REASONABLE buffest. anything above Racial Max is bloody rare,
> and Racial Max is rare, but NOT buffest.

BBB, page 190: "Attribute Ratings cannot normally exceed the
character's racial maximum. However, if the gamemster agrees, paying
double the Good Karma Points above the racial maximum. <snip example>
The gamemaster should probably discourage players from raising a
character's Attributes to beyond 1.5x the racial maximum."

This is an OPTIONAL rule. Six is the racial maximum for a
human...toughest, smartest, strongest or what-have-you. Some games may
allow a player to exceed it, others may not. So you can't really use
use 9 as the "buffest ever" top of the spectrum. Even in games
allowing you to exceed racial max's, those who do are a rarity above
and beyond the "biggest" or "smartest" for that race.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 25
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:08:15 -0700
---MC23 wrote:
>
> Then maybe the rate you give out Karma should be reviewed. My
group
> only gives out 2-3 Karma points a session as a general rule. Karma
become
> too valuable to spend on multiple increases that way.

Ok, maybe "shortly" was a bad choice of a word. I don't mean they all
hit racial max in three or four gaming sessions. But they tend to
eventually. As for Karma awards. I'd say I average 1-3 per player each
session. One or two players have even said I'm too light on awards,
but it averages out in the end.

> >Basically, racial max's and karma cost for raising attributes stand
as
> >listed in the BBB. However, each character has his own personal cap
on
> >how far he can raise each attribute equal to 1.5x it's starting
value
> >(rounded up). Mind you the 1.5x limit is after factoring in racial
> >modifiers at character creation.
>
> And if you start with a stat of 1?

You cap out at 2. Individual limits are 1.5x starting attribute
(rounded up).
1 --> 2
2 --> 3
3 --> 5
4 --> 6
5 --> 8
6 --> 9
And so on...

Karma costs and racial max's are per BBB. Those who are able may
exceed to 1.5x racial max at double karma cost over racial max.

Makes cyber/bioware or increase att spells a little more important,
don't it? :o)

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 26
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:28:03 -0400
Loki once dared to write,

>---MC23 wrote:
>> And if you start with a stat of 1?
>
>You cap out at 2. Individual limits are 1.5x starting attribute
>(rounded up).

I could handle a +3 cap better than your way. My character Waif
(burnt out sorcerer adept) could have never existed in your game. At the
start of the campaign, Waif was already a former runner who spent the
last couple years wasting away on BTLs. He was a Strength 1 with other
lower stats who just came clean off the chips and was rebuilding himself
up to his former pre-addict self.
People do recover from such conditions. Under your system, they can
only recover a little. Your system impedes development too unfairly.

>Makes cyber/bioware or increase att spells a little more important,
>don't it? :o)
too important.



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 27
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:35:16 -0500
At 10:17 AM 7/10/97 EST, Brett wrote:
>> Keep in mind what the attribute levels represent. A 6 is the biggest
>> buffest human known...racial max. Arnie may be a 6, but he may be
>> closer to 5.

>I would disagree with this. 6 represents the Maximum Average, ( if
>that makes sense). 1.5 times racial max is the buffest ever....max
>is a REASONABLE buffest. anything above Racial Max is bloody rare,
>and Racial Max is rare, but NOT buffest. I'd say about 25% of the
>people going to top universities have the equivilant of INT 6. And
>they aren't necessarily the most intelligent ever....just on the
>highest end of reasonable.

Actually 1.5 times racial max is an *optional* maximum. See pgs. 42-43, 46,
and 190 in SRII for the exact canonical wording. Disagree if you like but
the words are there for the seeing. I, personally, don't allow players to
naturally exceed racial max in the campaigns that I GM as an anti-powergamer
measure.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 28
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:41:05 EDT
TopCat writes:
> >I would disagree with this. 6 represents the Maximum Average, ( if
> >that makes sense). 1.5 times racial max is the buffest ever....max
> >is a REASONABLE buffest. anything above Racial Max is bloody rare,
> >and Racial Max is rare, but NOT buffest. I'd say about 25% of the
> >people going to top universities have the equivilant of INT 6. And
> >they aren't necessarily the most intelligent ever....just on the
> >highest end of reasonable.
>
> Actually 1.5 times racial max is an *optional* maximum. See pgs. 42-43, 46,
> and 190 in SRII for the exact canonical wording. Disagree if you like but
> the words are there for the seeing. I, personally, don't allow players to
> naturally exceed racial max in the campaigns that I GM as an anti-powergamer
> measure.

The way I see it, 6 is the maximum for a normal human (with the various
differences max for the metas). Anything above that is either
cyberware/bioware, or a freak of nature (I mean this in a nice way, =) ).

BTW, what would Einstein's (sp?) intelligence be? For physics, I'd call
him a god, for tying his shoes, well, he was a little on the slow side,
from what I have heard said about him...

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8920/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 29
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:28:59 +0000
> [snip: x2 vs x1 for cost to increase Attributes]
> |
> | Still somewhat abuseable that way as well. My house rule (and
> | somebody else's on the list as well so it's got to be good B>]# ) is that
> | every increase in attributes after CharGen costs new attribute level
> | times the number of increase it is. Therefor the first increase is the
> | standard 1 times, the second is 2 times, the third is 3 times, etc. This
> | greatly discourages starting with lower stats and working your way up to
> | straight 6's. This was a problem in our games here until we added that
> | rule. Something like this would be great in SR3.
>
> Doh! I forgot about that one (suprise :) Question: do you apply the
> x2 multiplier when increasing stats beyond racial maximum in addition
> to the multiplier per increase? I.e., if a character started at 6,
> increased to 7, and now wants to increase to 8 does it cost (8 x2 x2)
> 32 karma?

I'm one of those other people that posted that house rule, and I do
not use it that way. (Adds a +2 multiplier when above racial stats,
that is, I don't.). Each attribute is pipped when it's
increased, and (pips*0.5+1)*next attribute value is the karma cost.
I use 0.5, david used 1. I suspect 1 is a bit harsh, but that's
me.

On another note: Increasing cybered, uncybered and magically
increased/boosted stats...

There's a discrepancy here.
Mr. Street samurai with muscle replacement 4 has to pay (say, 5+1) +
4 * 3 (basic rules) karma to increase his strength to 10. (30
karma.). A mage with Increase Strength spell locked just turns off
the lock, increases the attribute, and reactivates the lock. Pays 21
karma. What would happen if the sammie can deactivate the muscle
replacement? Also, the physad with boosted strenght compared to the
physad with (incr. attrib. strength) ?

It would be easier, and more balanced, IMHO, to let everyone increase
their attributes at a cost as if they were unaugmented and unaltered
from their natural value.
(Just thought of a new use of the 'decrease attribute' spell... :) )

Lastly, sorry if this has been discussed to death. I got back from
holidays with 2500 mails in the shadowrn folder... I kinda thought
for 1/5th of a second and deleted'em.).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 30
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:02:28 -0400
> From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
> Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 6:28 PM

<Snip>

> On another note: Increasing cybered, uncybered and magically
> increased/boosted stats...

> There's a discrepancy here.
> Mr. Street samurai with muscle replacement 4 has to pay (say, 5+1) +
> 4 * 3 (basic rules) karma to increase his strength to 10. (30
> karma.). A mage with Increase Strength spell locked just turns off
> the lock, increases the attribute, and reactivates the lock. Pays 21
> karma. What would happen if the sammie can deactivate the muscle
> replacement? Also, the physad with boosted strenght compared to the
> physad with (incr. attrib. strength) ?

> It would be easier, and more balanced, IMHO, to let everyone increase
> their attributes at a cost as if they were unaugmented and unaltered
> from their natural value.
> (Just thought of a new use of the 'decrease attribute' spell... :) )

Which would get just as messy as the Increase Attribute spell....

I feel that since it's the sammies that tend to increase their attributes
the most, that it's fine by me if they get stuck paying more than mages
because a spell lock can be turned off. At least their cyber/bioware can't
be grounded through. It all has its ups and downs. I would also rule that
Physads can't turn of their increased attributes, either. Thus, they too
would get stuck paying the higher cost....which is also fine by me for the
same reason.

> Lastly, sorry if this has been discussed to death. I got back from
> holidays with 2500 mails in the shadowrn folder... I kinda thought
> for 1/5th of a second and deleted'em.).

Heh.

> --
> Fade

Justin :)
Message no. 31
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Karma and Attributes
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:39:00 GMT
on 26.07.97 vanyel@*******.NET wrote:

v> I feel that since it's the sammies that tend to increase their attributes
v> the most, that it's fine by me if they get stuck paying more than mages
v> because a spell lock can be turned off. At least their cyber/bioware can't
v> be grounded through. It all has its ups and downs. I would also rule that
v> Physads can't turn of their increased attributes, either. Thus, they too
v> would get stuck paying the higher cost....which is also fine by me for the
v> same reason.

Well, I don't think thats o.k. You are right, the fighters (Sams, Mercs,
Physads, etc) *have* to increase their attributes the most. If you would
make that more expensive to them, they would fall back behind mages as the
game developes (this is already happening in SR, anyway). It's not that
much fun anymore, if a 100 karmapoints mage takes down three fighters of
the same karmalevel without even starting to sweat.

You can keep control of the skill/attribute/spell/whatever ratings by
simply letting the GM decide whether the char can increase it or not.
Works just fine in our group (O.K., you need a non-asshole GM, but if your
GM *is* an asshole, it's no fun anyway).

Tobias
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