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Message no. 1
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] K's take on Conjuring Circles
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 02:20:19 EDT
Okay, this is yet another topic that I have (over)heard has generated a reply
or two of disagreement upon.

I do NOT know how to say this, any of this, without divulging somewhat. So, I
will remain as close to canon as I possibly can for this at first, and
possible divert further down the line as I go.

Conjuring circles are, as SR rules (any edition) stand, unclear concerning the
overlapping of particular elemental configurations. It can be presumed (this
is NOT an assumption) that as long as the elementalities are not in
disagreement with one another, then they will NOT cancel each other out.
Thus, it is in theory possible to have one elemental circle existing within
the boundaries of another elemental circle of non-conflicting nature.

As long as the two boundaries do NOT conflict/overlap.

So it would be possible, to say have a "Rating 4 (Water)" within the
boundaries of a "Raing 5 (Air)" circle. Now using the two at the same time, I
don't know. I seem to recall Conjuring Elementals is at the very least a
Complex Action, and I know in many interpretations, it is considered an
Exclusive Action as well (somebody clarify here please). What would be more
interesting I suppose, extrapolating with what is above, that it would be
possible to have a "Rating 6 (Fire)" circle outside the Air circle, as the Air
circle would create a retroactive definition of boundaries, and thus seperate
the conflicts. And futher thus, a "Rating 7 (Earth)" could be placed beyond
the Fire circle, and keep it's conflicts with Air disseperate as well.

Now does this make sense within the genre' of Shadowrun?

I don't believe it would for the majority of gaming groups that are out there,
as though I know there are many that bring in "outside theoretics" to their
games, but it simply becomes a very detailed game at that point IMO (I killed
my humility recently btw ;). That level of detail could easily get abused,
and again IMO, is not entirely necessary unless the GM and the player(s) so
involved all agree/allow for such on a whole.

It would be much easier to simply keep the circles seperated within the
guidelines of SR mechanics IMO, and thus keep the level of game mechanics
confusion to a minimum.

Do we use these simpler guidelines here? Of course not, but we also have
admitted to operating/gaming at a level of power (magical and technological)
that is considerably above what most have admitted to otherwise.

-=-=-=-

And besides, I've designed (in RL here) Ouija boards and the like using the
concepts of Elemental Ascendancy, and those guideilnes do very much incur the
concept of "Elemental Overlapping", so I know the theory is out there, but it
simply is not found within the mechanics as they stand currently, of
Shadowrun.

-K
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] K's take on Conjuring Circles
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:30:51 +1000
Keith,

Have you ever seen a picture of a traditional Hermetic circle?

Basically, it consists of a circle (with a thick circumference, in which
patterns are inscribed), with patterns contained _within_ the circle. The
traditional pentagram is standard: a circle, with a five-pointed star inside
it.

The magical energy is meant to flow within the patterns... not just along
the circle's edge, but within the circle.

If you wish to draw a second circle within the first, then you will
definitely screw up the pattern of the first, and probably of the second.
The result would be that the circle is useless.

If you want to use multiple circles within each other, you'd end up
designing _one_ circle which encompasses sufficient elements of the two
circles you wish to draw in a harmonious manner. Designing new types of
hermetic circles would be a major Magical theory test, and beyond the scope
of most players. Given that there are no rules for it at the moment, I would
assume that it is also beyond the scope of SR magic (though a new
breakthrough in hermetic theory could be announced by MIT&T in MitS...).

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: Lance Dillon <riffraff@********.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] K's take on Conjuring Circles
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:26:09 -0400
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> Have you ever seen a picture of a traditional Hermetic circle?
>
> Basically, it consists of a circle (with a thick circumference, in which
> patterns are inscribed), with patterns contained _within_ the circle. The
> traditional pentagram is standard: a circle, with a five-pointed star inside
> it.
>
> The magical energy is meant to flow within the patterns... not just along
> the circle's edge, but within the circle.
>
> If you wish to draw a second circle within the first, then you will
> definitely screw up the pattern of the first, and probably of the second.
> The result would be that the circle is useless.
>
> If you want to use multiple circles within each other, you'd end up
> designing _one_ circle which encompasses sufficient elements of the two
> circles you wish to draw in a harmonious manner. Designing new types of
> hermetic circles would be a major Magical theory test, and beyond the scope
> of most players. Given that there are no rules for it at the moment, I would
> assume that it is also beyond the scope of SR magic (though a new
> breakthrough in hermetic theory could be announced by MIT&T in MitS...).
>

although it doesnt seem to be impossible at all, if you go by the book
'House of the Sun'...they had to circles....the outer one to keep
hostile spirits out, and the inner one to keep the spirits the were
'conjuring' in....


> --
> Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
> binds the Universe together.
> Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

--
Lance Dillon
Network Administrator
Nielsen Media Research
--
The moon is a planet just like the Earth, only it is even deader.
Message no. 4
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] K's take on Conjuring Circles
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 11:36:28 EDT
In a message dated 8/20/98 7:24:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
riffraff@********.RR.COM writes:

> although it doesnt seem to be impossible at all, if you go by the book
> 'House of the Sun'...they had to circles....the outer one to keep
> hostile spirits out, and the inner one to keep the spirits the were
> 'conjuring' in....

A lot of people do not cosider Novels to be canon, but a good point none the
less.

-Bandit
Message no. 5
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] K's take on Conjuring Circles
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:56:20 EDT
In a message dated 8/20/1998 6:24:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
riffraff@********.RR.COM writes:

> Robert Watkins wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> > Have you ever seen a picture of a traditional Hermetic circle?

Yes Robert, no fewer than 9 different variations exist according to variations
on different beliefs, polythemetic views, and more. But as I said, i was
trying to remain in SR Canon as much as possible.

> > Basically, it consists of a circle (with a thick circumference, in which
> > patterns are inscribed), with patterns contained _within_ the circle. The
> > traditional pentagram is standard: a circle, with a five-pointed star
> inside
> > it.
> >
> > The magical energy is meant to flow within the patterns... not just along
> > the circle's edge, but within the circle.

Yes Robert, I know this. I know this very well in fact.

> > If you wish to draw a second circle within the first, then you will
> > definitely screw up the pattern of the first, and probably of the second.
> > The result would be that the circle is useless.

No Robert, you would not, as long as the pattern of the inner circle does not
overlap the pattern of the second. Basic Geometry really in this particular
case.

> > If you want to use multiple circles within each other, you'd end up
> > designing _one_ circle which encompasses sufficient elements of the two
> > circles you wish to draw in a harmonious manner. Designing new types of
> > hermetic circles would be a major Magical theory test, and beyond the
> scope
> > of most players. Given that there are no rules for it at the moment, I
> would
> > assume that it is also beyond the scope of SR magic (though a new
> > breakthrough in hermetic theory could be announced by MIT&T in MitS...).

And I also stated this as well in my posting.

> although it doesnt seem to be impossible at all, if you go by the book
> 'House of the Sun'...they had to circles....the outer one to keep
> hostile spirits out, and the inner one to keep the spirits the were
> 'conjuring' in....

Yes, I do seem to recall this as well. In my posting I mention "Ascendancy",
what is within that, though admittedly from an Authortorial Aspect, is part of
that effect.

-K

Further Reading

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