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Message no. 1
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 04:01:34 -0700
Hi all,

Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I haven't
found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?

Also noted that someone can use two cyberspurs simultaneously and increase
the power of their attack by 50%. Is this going to be generally true of
melee weapons, say, two swords for example?

Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going into
Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ... Karma
Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.

Thanks,

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 2
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:09:40 -0400
Adam Getchell wrote:
> Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I
> haven't
> found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
> successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?
>
It depends on the spell - combat spells aren't limited (they're
resisted), health spells *are* limited by force, detection spells use
the force to determine the AOE, manipulations and illusions do something
else. I forget. Basically, look at the spell descriptions (and the
spell headings). Force *always* comes into the equation somewhere.

> Also noted that someone can use two cyberspurs simultaneously and
> increase
> the power of their attack by 50%. Is this going to be generally true
> of
> melee weapons, say, two swords for example?
>
Err... Yes! Yes, of course it is! Or maybe not... No, definitely not.

> Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going
> into
> Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ...
> Karma
> Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
> letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.
>
Hah! I've only earned about 1/20 karma towards pool in the game I'm
playing in (it has funky rules). On top of *that*, every five KP you
have, the more "karma pool earned" you need to actually raise your KP.

James Ojaste
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:04:51 -0400
>Also noted that someone can use two cyberspurs
>simultaneously and increase
>the power of their attack by 50%. Is this going to be generally
>true of melee weapons, say, two swords for example?

No inside information on this one. But personally I don't
see it as a bad idea. It would keep things simple and not
slow down resolution. Hmm.. I will think on it. :)

>Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma
>going into Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes
>metahumans unplayable ... Karma Pool is life, the argument
>goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
>letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or
>karma.

Personally I don't like it either. I believe it was a way to
balance out the stat modifiers, and the fact that they lowered the
priority on races. Of course many GM's I know, removed the race
priority entirely long ago..but that is a different argument.
Personally this can easily fall in the realm of house rules and
individual GM's. A flaw or edge could work as well.
(One for metahuman that's an edge, one for humans that's
a flaw, I'd make it worth at least 3 points). This is all IMHO
of course.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 331-1159
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 4
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:23:12 -0700
>Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I haven't
>found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
>successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?


Well, I think we now officially have a question that must go into a SR3
FAQ. Might I propose;

"What effect does force have on spell casting and resistance [in SR3]?"
"Force is always the TN for any resistance test, and may limit the effect of
the spell, including the maximum number of successes possible in spell
casting test; any such limit will be noted in the spell description (as in
the heal spell's) or the spells category description (as in detection spell's
range of effect being force x casters magic rating meters)."

Mongoose
Message no. 5
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:01:31 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 4:01:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I haven't
> found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
> successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?
>
> Also noted that someone can use two cyberspurs simultaneously and increase
> the power of their attack by 50%. Is this going to be generally true of
> melee weapons, say, two swords for example?

I looked and could find nothing saying that the max number of successes a
spell can have is equal to its force. If someone else finds it please give us
a page number. Even if it is in the book I will likely ignore it for our game.

As for the cyberspurs (pg 121 SR3), it looks like this rule only applies to
spurs. However, I would likely do the same for short swords or daggers, but
nothing larger.

>
> Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going into
> Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ... Karma
> Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
> letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.
>

I am just going to ignore that rule as is our other SR gamemaster.

Otter
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:06:48 -0700
> Well, I think we now officially have a question that must go into a SR3
>FAQ. Might I propose;

Right. I did find it in spell descriptions, once I'd read to that part.

Treat is no longer very advantageous over healing. I suppose one might
consider it if one had Force 10 Treat vs Heal, but a drain code of 5 (Wound
Level) is not too bad.

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 7
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:09:11 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 7:02:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
DeckerL@******.COM writes:

> Personally I don't like it either. I believe it was a way to
> balance out the stat modifiers, and the fact that they lowered the
> priority on races. Of course many GM's I know, removed the race
> priority entirely long ago..but that is a different argument.
> Personally this can easily fall in the realm of house rules and
> individual GM's. A flaw or edge could work as well.
> (One for metahuman that's an edge, one for humans that's
> a flaw, I'd make it worth at least 3 points). This is all IMHO
> of course.
>

Since I had used the more metahuman rules since 2nd edition the priority
change did not do modify anything for us. Of course, now some of the players
are looking at playing Orks, and Dwarves instead of the usual Elf or Troll.

I think I may use an Edge to for metahuman to get the 1/10. There is already a
flaw that only gets you 1/20. I forget what it is called.

Otter
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:23:49 -0700
>I think I may use an Edge to for metahuman to get the 1/10. There is already a
>flaw that only gets you 1/20. I forget what it is called.

Right. That is the "Bad Karma" flaw, worth 5 points. So far, I've simply
let metahumans buy back normal Karma for 5 edge points. However, that might
be a bit too lenient. I'm also considering letting them buy the flaw off,
with Karma. That way, humans have a definite advantage in pool but as more
karma is earned it goes away.

>Otter

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 9
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:43:51 -0400
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Randy Nickel wrote:

->I think I may use an Edge to for metahuman to get the 1/10. There is already a
->flaw that only gets you 1/20. I forget what it is called.

"Bad Karma" under the magic section.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:09:29 EST
> Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going into
> Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ... Karma
> Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
> letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.

Notice also that the Karma Pool refreshes a heck of a lot less (as we
read it before, it refreshed every time the characters had a chance
to relax and catch their breaths...now they're talking about it only
refreshing at the beginning of each game session...

Looks like they decided to deal with the complaints of large Karma
Pools.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 11
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:50:03 -0400
Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I haven't
>found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
>successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?

As other people have noted, read the spells.

>Also noted that someone can use two cyberspurs simultaneously and increase
>the power of their attack by 50%. Is this going to be generally true of
>melee weapons, say, two swords for example?

I haven't read that chapter yet (I'm skipping around) but isn't
there a ruling on two handed weapon use or is that just for guns?

>Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going into
>Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ... Karma
>Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
>letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.

You speaking to someone who would have preferred the demise of Karma
Pools. I don't see where the rate of karma pool is makes anyone
unplayable, it just sounds greedy to me. Once Karma pools reach around 7+
dice the way Shadowrun plays starts to take a drastic turn. Members on
this lists can tell you about their effects on long lasting campaigns.
We've always jumped around between campaigns and games here so the worst
I've seen is about 9 dice which was pretty bad in my opinion. Anyway, I'd
drop humans to 1/20 before I'd change metahumans to 1/10.

I'm toying around with the idea of only using Team Karma for my next
game. Maybe have the starting pool equal to 1 per party member. Possibly
allow rituals to raise that number.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:55:05 -0600
MC23 wrote:
/
/ You speaking to someone who would have preferred the demise of Karma
/ Pools. I don't see where the rate of karma pool is makes anyone
/ unplayable, it just sounds greedy to me. Once Karma pools reach around 7+
/ dice the way Shadowrun plays starts to take a drastic turn. Members on
/ this lists can tell you about their effects on long lasting campaigns.
/ We've always jumped around between campaigns and games here so the worst
/ I've seen is about 9 dice which was pretty bad in my opinion. Anyway, I'd
/ drop humans to 1/20 before I'd change metahumans to 1/10.

Try running a game with 20-30 point karma pools :-\

My advice is to toss the karma pool. If players want to re-roll, or
buy a success, in my game they have to burn good karma. No karma pool,
no problem.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:47:31 -0500
> I'm toying around with the idea of only using Team Karma for my next
> game. Maybe have the starting pool equal to 1 per party member. Possibly
> allow rituals to raise that number.


Blood magic! Woo!

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 14
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:02:42 -0400
<SNIP>
>You speaking to someone who would have preferred the
>demise of Karma Pools.
<SNIP>
Heh..I can agree with that. In theory they were a good idea.
In the campaign I ran for quite awhile, we played with
good karma (ala SR1), and team karma pool. (Basically
you could contribute 1 point per adventure, it refreshed
at the end of the adventure, and if you used a point, you had
to roll 2D6, if you rolled under the karma in the pool, the point
you used was gone permanently).
This kept the team pool low, and kept the gritty feel, because
during long adventures, you were never sure if you'd
need the pool later or not. <EGMG>
I'd be happy if they did away with them, or put a cap, or
something. Until then it falls in the realm of house rules. :(
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 331-1159
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:00:20 -0400
Once upon a time, XaOs wrote;

>> I'm toying around with the idea of only using Team Karma for my next
>> game. Maybe have the starting pool equal to 1 per party member. Possibly
>> allow rituals to raise that number.
>
>
>Blood magic! Woo!

Group Patterns, Naming magic. Earthdawn Thread Magic B>P#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:31:37 EST
> Since I had used the more metahuman rules since 2nd edition the priority
> change did not do modify anything for us. Of course, now some of the players
> are looking at playing Orks, and Dwarves instead of the usual Elf or Troll.

IT does modify things beyond More Metahumans...Mundanes can now be
Ork or Dwarf without any penalty (on the priority chart), which did
not happen even with More Metahumans...

-=Swiftone=-
Message no. 17
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:17:13 -0400
On 17 Aug 98, at 12:50, MC23 wrote:

> You speaking to someone who would have preferred the demise of Karma
> Pools. I don't see where the rate of karma pool is makes anyone
> unplayable, it just sounds greedy to me. Once Karma pools reach around 7+
> dice the way Shadowrun plays starts to take a drastic turn. Members on
> this lists can tell you about their effects on long lasting campaigns.
> We've always jumped around between campaigns and games here so the worst
> I've seen is about 9 dice which was pretty bad in my opinion. Anyway, I'd
> drop humans to 1/20 before I'd change metahumans to 1/10.

I agree with MC here. Karma Pools can get out of hand. I like David's
suggestion to spend good karma, and have used a variation of that in
the past. I also think that the modifer to metahumans is fair to
balance out their numerous advantages. Question; if I use the system
that David suggested, what would be a good way to apply it to SR3?
Maybe cap the number of Karma a metahuman can burn?

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 18
From: Rabid Dwarf <rabiddwarf@******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee -Reply
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:28:09 -0500
Lehlan Decker wrote:
<snippage>
> In the campaign I ran for quite awhile, we played with
> good karma (ala SR1), and team karma pool. (Basically
> you could contribute 1 point per adventure, it refreshed
> at the end of the adventure, and if you used a point, you had
> to roll 2D6, if you rolled under the karma in the pool, the point
> you used was gone permanently).
> This kept the team pool low, and kept the gritty feel, because
> during long adventures, you were never sure if you'd
> need the pool later or not. <EGMG>

Why not apply the same(2d6) rule for personal karma pools

Each time a player wants to spend a point of Karma (to save them selves,
or whatever) have them roll 2d6 AFTER the point is spent. If the roll is
less than the pool total they lose the point.

Would keep pools relatively low and make players really think before
throwing karma around like candy.

Just a thought.
--
Rabid Dwarf
Confirmation Number:23291 :)

Some people attempt to cope with reality.
I attempt to make reality cope with me.
Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:08:34 EST
> My advice is to toss the karma pool. If players want to re-roll, or
> buy a success, in my game they have to burn good karma. No karma pool,
> no problem.

My group has been kicking around the idea of Karma Pool as being a
stat...that is, you have to purchase increases, just like you
increase skills and attributes. As someone with REALLY bad luck, I
like having a karma pool...and paying Good Karma would result if me
never improving....because I'd need all my good Karma just to restore
the laws of probability. (In White Wolf games, I always give my
characters Luck, Charmed Existence, AND Self-confidence, and I end up
equallying the other characters when it comes time to roll)

Has anyone tried this?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 20
From: Rabid Dwarf <rabiddwarf@******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:37:03 -0500
Brett Borger wrote:
> My group has been kicking around the idea of Karma Pool as being a
> stat...that is, you have to purchase increases, just like you
> increase skills and attributes. As someone with REALLY bad luck, I
> like having a karma pool...and paying Good Karma would result if me
> never improving....because I'd need all my good Karma just to restore
> the laws of probability. (In White Wolf games, I always give my
> characters Luck, Charmed Existence, AND Self-confidence, and I end up
> equallying the other characters when it comes time to roll)
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> -=SwiftOne=-

If its treated as a stat is there a Maximum?

If so, you could balance the human/metahuman relation by giving the
human's a higher max.


--
Rabid Dwarf

Some people attempt to cope with reality.
I attempt to make reality cope with me.
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:07:25 -0400
At 04:01 AM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I haven't
>found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
>successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?

Sorry, I may be to blame on this one; I took a footnote from playtest rules
out of context and didn't put it back it. Sorry.

>Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going into
>Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ... Karma
>Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
>letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.

Similar to what others have mentioned, I don't use Karma Pool at all. Good
old fashioned SR1 Karma rules for me.

Erik who is glad he didn't have to try and order his BABY through the web
site today...
Message no. 22
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:18:33 -0700
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Got my hands on a copy. I've read through the magic section, but I haven't
> found any reference to the rule that unopposed spells have maximum
> successes equal to their force. Where is this? Or is it just a myth?

Some spells have maximum *effect* based on Force...but the effect is 1 per
2 successes... Barriers, some Detection spells and the like.

I can't find the rule, either, however.

> Also noted that someone can use two cyberspurs simultaneously and increase
> the power of their attack by 50%. Is this going to be generally true of
> melee weapons, say, two swords for example?

Interesting thought. I'm trying to make an Adept who fights Florentine
style, and I'd like to see a way to handle that.

> Finally, I've had comments from my players that the 1/20 Karma going into
> Pool (instead of 1/10 like humans) makes metahumans unplayable ... Karma
> Pool is life, the argument goes. Any ideas? So far, I've thought about
> letting them buy it off as a flaw either through edges/flaws or karma.

I'm tempted to just ignore it altogether. It's a silly rule.

> Thanks,
>
> --Adam
>
> acgetchell@*******.edu
> "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 23
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:56:39 +0000
Adam Getchell wrote:

> > Well, I think we now officially have a question that must go into a SR3
> >FAQ. Might I propose;
>
> Right. I did find it in spell descriptions, once I'd read to that part.

> Treat is no longer very advantageous over healing. I suppose one might
> consider it if one had Force 10 Treat vs Heal, but a drain code of 5 (Wound
> Level) is not too bad.

Well it certainly would be in my opinion if you had a chummer that you are
needing to bring back from death. 5D *physical* drain can be nasty. 4D is at
least a little bit better.

Caric
Message no. 24
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Magic and Melee
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:25:30 -0300
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> My advice is to toss the karma pool. If players want to re-roll, or
> buy a success, in my game they have to burn good karma. No karma pool,
> no problem.


Burn one Good Karma point for each extra dice added, and from 2
to 5 for each free success acquired. This allows you to do everything
the Karma Pool did.

I also have been musing over the idea of "Bad Karma" points, for
magicians... Like, they can really strain the mana around them to
squeeze more power to their magic for a short time, but that enrages
the Cosmic Powers that Be (whoever you say they are.). You receive
Bad Karma for this, and it acts as a negative Karma Pool (reducing
dice and successes in the same way the normal pool increases them).

You can get rid of it, but it would require some "purification"
or "contrition" rituals, and 5-10 karma per point erased.

What about it?

Bira

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