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From:	Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:37:45 EDT

Message no. 1 David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM> wrote:
>The point I was trying to make was that without FAB and Strain III how do you
>explain how Ares took care of the Bug problem in Chicago. As far as I can
see,
>In SR3 FAB doesn't work at all. If FAB doesn't exist then there is no Strain
>III.

Nobody said that FAB or Strain III didn't exist in SR3. In fact, both are
described in MITS under "Astral Security." Ares' handling of Bug City isn't
changed in the slightest and even most existing security systems don't need to
change. It's simply that FAB works a bit differently to fit with the new model
of astral space. In short, FAB is no longer an "immovable object" or a
completely inescapable trap. The interactions with astral forms have been
(hopefully) considerably clarified and simplified. The new model has also
provided us with a few additional astral security measures that you'll see in
MITS.

Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
>Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then too!

Nice try, chummer, but 'fraid not. Mother Earth is a special case with regards
to the astral plane. Her body is just as solid on the astral as on the
physical (consider the Earth a dual being). MITS should have some rules for
passing through solid earth, but it's difficult and takes a lot of time.
Nearly always better to just go around, especially if you've only got an hour
or two of projection time left...

Steve K.

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:36:00 -0700

Message no. 2 >Nobody said that FAB or Strain III didn't exist in SR3. In fact, both are
>described in MITS under "Astral Security." Ares' handling of Bug City isn't
>changed in the slightest and even most existing security systems don't need to
>change. It's simply that FAB works a bit differently to fit with the new model
>of astral space. In short, FAB is no longer an "immovable object" or a
>completely inescapable trap. The interactions with astral forms have been
>(hopefully) considerably clarified and simplified. The new model has also
>provided us with a few additional astral security measures that you'll see in
>MITS.

Genengineered magically active ivy becomes a big priority.

While I've got your attention (so to speak), I noted the following:

Sorcery Pool and Spell Pool can be used for spell defense. So, a typical
magician can allocate 12 Spell Defense. Is that right?

Illusions are now extremely powerful. A magician can cast a Force 6
Improved Invisibility and throw 12 dice, getting an average of 6 successes
(at TN 4). With that number of successes, it is impossible for a character
with an Intelligence of less than 7 to see the magician (and even then they
would have to roll 7 sixes). As a practical matter, a magician doing this
is going to be undetectable, no matter how many guards and cameras are
looking. All this for 4M drain. Oh, probably should add in the Force 6
Sustaining Focus to make things more convenient. Also, unlike the Silence
spell, maximum successes are not proscribed by Force.

Stealth: Now there's a lovely spell. For 4M drain you can generate a high
number of successes and thus make it absolutely impossible for you to be
heard.

Armor: Criminy. For 5M drain and 12 dice, you can on average, create a
Rating 9 Barrier that regenerates all damage. "If the barrier is
penetrated, it collapses and the spell ends." Now, what constitutes
penetrating a barrier? Is it firing through? In which case you have to have
a firearm with a power level greater than 9. Oops, there aren't any ...
where's the Assault Cannon? Or is it (even worse) under the Breaking
through rules, in which case you need double the power level, 18. Can't be
done with any weapon in the SR3 book ...

Well, sustained automatic fire could bring the Power level down by 1 as
long as it is greater than half its adjusted Barrier Rating (is it 9 or
18?), too bad the pesky thing regenerates damage. Assuming (best case) that
the adjusted Barrier Rating is 9, you'd just need to conduct 9 attacks
against it to destroy it, before the end of the turn, to prevent it from
regenerating. If the adjusted Barrier Rating was 18, you'd have to conduct
18 attacks with missiles/rockets or assault cannon.

Of course, it's not as much of a problem for a magician to dispell it, but
I was thinking about the poor groggies.

>Steve K.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:54:37 -0400

Message no. 3 Adam Getchell wrote:
> While I've got your attention (so to speak), I noted the following:
>
Well, I'm not Steve, but...

> Sorcery Pool and Spell Pool can be used for spell defense. So, a
> typical
> magician can allocate 12 Spell Defense. Is that right?
>
Looks like it.

> Illusions are now extremely powerful. A magician can cast a Force 6
>
Magic was always very powerful. Magic is supposed to be countered by
magic...

> Improved Invisibility and throw 12 dice, getting an average of 6
> successes
>
First off, that's major mojo (a force 6 spell!), second, that's a big
spell pool these days.

> (at TN 4). With that number of successes, it is impossible for a
> character
> with an Intelligence of less than 7 to see the magician (and even then
> they
> would have to roll 7 sixes). As a practical matter, a magician doing
> this
> is going to be undetectable, no matter how many guards and cameras are
>
It says "normal vision", thermograph used to pick it up - does it still
do so?

> looking. All this for 4M drain. Oh, probably should add in the Force 6
> Sustaining Focus to make things more convenient. Also, unlike the
> Silence
> spell, maximum successes are not proscribed by Force.
>
Even if they were, that would still be 6 successes...

> Stealth: Now there's a lovely spell. For 4M drain you can generate a
> high
> number of successes and thus make it absolutely impossible for you to
> be
> heard.
>
Well, not impossible. Get a sensitive sound detector, call it rating 9
and maybe add in some funky stuff to reduce the TN.

> Armor: Criminy. For 5M drain and 12 dice, you can on average, create a
> Rating 9 Barrier that regenerates all damage. "If the barrier is
> penetrated, it collapses and the spell ends." Now, what constitutes
> penetrating a barrier? Is it firing through? In which case you have to
> have
> a firearm with a power level greater than 9. Oops, there aren't any
> ...
>
Huh? How about a Predator with explosive ammo? A Viper on burst fire?
A shotgun or rifle? Not to mention machineguns...

> where's the Assault Cannon? Or is it (even worse) under the Breaking
> through rules, in which case you need double the power level, 18.
> Can't be
> done with any weapon in the SR3 book ...
>
Except an HMG on full-auto.

> Well, sustained automatic fire could bring the Power level down by 1
> as
> long as it is greater than half its adjusted Barrier Rating (is it 9
> or
> 18?), too bad the pesky thing regenerates damage. Assuming (best case)
> that
> the adjusted Barrier Rating is 9, you'd just need to conduct 9 attacks
> against it to destroy it, before the end of the turn, to prevent it
> from
> regenerating. If the adjusted Barrier Rating was 18, you'd have to
> conduct
> 18 attacks with missiles/rockets or assault cannon.
>
I don't see where you're getting this from.

> Of course, it's not as much of a problem for a magician to dispell it,
> but
> I was thinking about the poor groggies.
>
Magic beats up on mundanes easily. That's the point - it's something
that is both feared and desired in the shadows. It's Power.

James Ojaste

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:01:38 -0400

Message no. 4 Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>Genengineered magically active ivy becomes a big priority.

No one has identified magically active genes. They are still trying
though.

>While I've got your attention (so to speak), I noted the following:
>
>Sorcery Pool and Spell Pool can be used for spell defense. So, a typical
>magician can allocate 12 Spell Defense. Is that right?

There is only Spell Pool.

>Illusions are now extremely powerful. A magician can cast a Force 6
>Improved Invisibility and throw 12 dice, getting an average of 6 successes
>(at TN 4). With that number of successes, it is impossible for a character
>with an Intelligence of less than 7 to see the magician (and even then they
>would have to roll 7 sixes). As a practical matter, a magician doing this
>is going to be undetectable, no matter how many guards and cameras are
>looking. All this for 4M drain. Oh, probably should add in the Force 6
>Sustaining Focus to make things more convenient. Also, unlike the Silence
>spell, maximum successes are not proscribed by Force.

What do you expect from a Sorcery 6 Force 6 with almost all your
Spell Pool pumped into to for effect? I still spend a lot of my actions
keeping out of the firing arc of my fellow runners. Of course Astral
Perception and Thermographics still sees right through it. I still like
having a spirit drop a concealment on my for better hiding power than an
invisibility spell.

>Stealth: Now there's a lovely spell. For 4M drain you can generate a high
>number of successes and thus make it absolutely impossible for you to be
>heard.

You make it sound so easy. You are maxing out everything to do this.

>Armor: Criminy. For 5M drain and 12 dice, you can on average, create a
>Rating 9 Barrier that regenerates all damage.

With a target number 6 and you can average 6 successes on 12 dice???

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:08:15 EDT

Message no. 5 In a message dated 98-08-17 10:39:09 EDT, you write:

> (consider the Earth a dual being)

Now that, Steve, has got to be one of the coolest ideas I've ever seen...
oooh, the things I could do with that one...

Nexx

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:07:46 -0700

Message no. 6 >First off, that's major mojo (a force 6 spell!), second, that's a big
>spell pool these days.

Not really. Just requires an Intelligence and Willpower of 6 and what mage
is not going to make their character like that?

>Even if they were, that would still be 6 successes...

Right. It's not going to be detectable.

>Well, not impossible. Get a sensitive sound detector, call it rating 9
>and maybe add in some funky stuff to reduce the TN.

How?

>Huh? How about a Predator with explosive ammo? A Viper on burst fire?
>A shotgun or rifle? Not to mention machineguns...

Not if the adjusted Barrier Rating is 18. Also, you use the base power
level of the attack. Now, I looked at SR3 to confirm this, and I didn't
find it, so maybe this is something that changed from SR2. Except, that
doesn't really make sense that multiple rounds would increase the
penetration of a single round (else the military would be using giant
shotguns as anti-tank weapons).

All this still doesn't work if the adjusted Barrier Rating is 18, and that
sems to be a fair interpretation as it falls under Breaking Through a
Barrier.

>Except an HMG on full-auto.

See above.

>I don't see where you're getting this from.

To reduce the Rating of a Barrier, you must conduct an attack with a Power
at least equal to half its Rating. Now, assuming one casts a Force 6
Barrier with 12 dice, you will get 6 successes on the average (TN 4) and
thus create a Rating 9 Barrier. Clear?

Barriers stop weapons cold if they're power is less than the Rating of the
Barrier. In SR2, only base power was counted, and I haven't seen anyplace
that changes it in SR3 yet. Therefore, only weapons with a Base Power of 9
can go through the Barrier ... and the only weapon that can do so is the
SM-3 sniper rifle and the Warhawk. That's on the "Firing Through" rules on
p. 124 of SR3.

Of course, the Rifle's Power after going through the Barrier is 5 and the
Warhawks is 1, so in no fashion are those weapons going to be effective at
damaging a target protected by the barrier. MMG rounds, being Power 9, will
bounce. The HMG at Power 10 might do damage since you can fire a 10 round
burst and have a power of 11 leak through the Barrier. In either case,
though, the Barrier is only going to lose 1 point, (well, the rifle will
make it lose 2) because half the Barrier rating is 4 and each increment
thereupon reduces the rating by 1.

All this damage gets regenerated.

Now it's much worse trying to breach the barrier, as now the adjusted
Barrier rating is doubled.

>Magic beats up on mundanes easily. That's the point - it's something
>that is both feared and desired in the shadows. It's Power.

I personally, think the above reasoning is a cop-out. I, personally, want
to have games where the players are motivated to play characters other than
adepts and magicians. Even against spirits mundanes have a chance with
Willpower. The armor spell effectively negates 95% of the Firearms in use
and requires the application of heavy weapons to be brought against the
magician.

>James Ojaste

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:29:24 -0400

Message no. 7 Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>All this still doesn't work if the adjusted Barrier Rating is 18, and that
>sems to be a fair interpretation as it falls under Breaking Through a
>Barrier.

Ok with a sorcery 6 and force 6 Barrier spell and 6 dice from Spell
Pool would expect to get a Rating 7 barrier (2 successes vs. target
number 6) a Troll, Ork, Dwarf, or any street sam with an 8 Strength could
punch it down.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:30:00 -0700

Message no. 8 > No one has identified magically active genes. They are still trying
>though.

I'd disagree with that. How was FAT-BAC created? Last time I checked,
bacteria isn't normally magically active.

> There is only Spell Pool.

Right, but you get to use your Sorcery as well, p. 177, under Sorcery.

> What do you expect from a Sorcery 6 Force 6 with almost all your
>Spell Pool pumped into to for effect? I still spend a lot of my actions
>keeping out of the firing arc of my fellow runners. Of course Astral
>Perception and Thermographics still sees right through it. I still like
>having a spirit drop a concealment on my for better hiding power than an
>invisibility spell.

Not that tough to prepare ahead of time. You don't? Before I go anywhere, I
cast such spells as will protect me from hostiles. I don't need to worry
too much about depleting Spell pool at that point.

>With a target number 6 and you can average 6 successes on 12 dice???

Well, okay, 2 successes. However, given Karma pool, it's not unreasonable,
especially if you're going to put it in a spell sustaining focus.

> I am MC23

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:34:17 -0400

Message no. 9 Adam Getchell wrote:
> >First off, that's major mojo (a force 6 spell!), second, that's a big
> >spell pool these days.
>
> Not really. Just requires an Intelligence and Willpower of 6 and what
> mage
> is not going to make their character like that?
>
People who don't care about being the most powerful mage on the block?
It also requires a Magic of 6 - no cyber, no bio.

> >Well, not impossible. Get a sensitive sound detector, call it rating
> 9
> >and maybe add in some funky stuff to reduce the TN.
>
> How?
>
Technobabble - take a look at ST:TNG to see how it's done. ;-)
Seriously, they've got sensors to measure changes in pressure - just
how does the magic define "sound"? To breathe, you have to take air
in and push it out again - once you've got air moving you have something
you can detect.

> >Huh? How about a Predator with explosive ammo? A Viper on burst
> fire?
> >A shotgun or rifle? Not to mention machineguns...
>
> Not if the adjusted Barrier Rating is 18. Also, you use the base power
> level of the attack. Now, I looked at SR3 to confirm this, and I
> didn't
>
This was in response to your BR 9 paragraph - I responded to your BR 18
paragraph later. In SR3, I haven't found anything saying that the base
power is what's used (which makes sense - 3 solid slug rounds from a
shotgun *has* to do more damage than 1).

> find it, so maybe this is something that changed from SR2. Except,
> that
> doesn't really make sense that multiple rounds would increase the
> penetration of a single round (else the military would be using giant
> shotguns as anti-tank weapons).
>
Huh? Don't you mean rapid-fire cannon instead of single-shot-type
cannon? The reason they don't is barrel overheating and loading speed,
AFAICR.

> All this still doesn't work if the adjusted Barrier Rating is 18, and
> that
> sems to be a fair interpretation as it falls under Breaking Through a
> Barrier.
>
> >Except an HMG on full-auto.
>
> See above.
>
Again, I don't see any references to "base power" in SR3.

> >I don't see where you're getting this from.
>
> To reduce the Rating of a Barrier, you must conduct an attack with a
> Power
> at least equal to half its Rating. Now, assuming one casts a Force 6
> Barrier with 12 dice, you will get 6 successes on the average (TN 4)
> and
> thus create a Rating 9 Barrier. Clear?
>
It's TN 6. Thus Rating 7 Barrier.

> Barriers stop weapons cold if they're power is less than the Rating of
> the
> Barrier. In SR2, only base power was counted, and I haven't seen
> anyplace
> that changes it in SR3 yet. Therefore, only weapons with a Base Power
> of 9
> can go through the Barrier ... and the only weapon that can do so is
> the
> SM-3 sniper rifle and the Warhawk. That's on the "Firing Through"
> rules on
> p. 124 of SR3.
>
So you were basing this all on just SR2. *That's* what I didn't get,
since we're supposed to be talking about SR3 (you *were* complaining
about magic in SR3, after all). I believe that ammo upgrades were
included in the base power of the attack in SR2 anyway.

To sum up: SR2 says "base power", SR3 says "power". SR2 should not be
a prerequisite to SR3, therefore SR3 must stand on its own.

> Of course, the Rifle's Power after going through the Barrier is 5 and
> the
> Warhawks is 1, so in no fashion are those weapons going to be
> effective at
> damaging a target protected by the barrier. MMG rounds, being Power 9,
> will
>
Huh? You can kill somebody wearing armour with a light pistol (damage
code of 4L reduced to 0L), but you can't kill somebody with a 1M?
Extra successes are all you need, and what sams get.

> bounce. The HMG at Power 10 might do damage since you can fire a 10
> round
> burst and have a power of 11 leak through the Barrier. In either case,
> though, the Barrier is only going to lose 1 point, (well, the rifle
> will
> make it lose 2) because half the Barrier rating is 4 and each
> increment
> thereupon reduces the rating by 1.
>
> All this damage gets regenerated.
>
As long as the barrier isn't penetrated.

> Now it's much worse trying to breach the barrier, as now the adjusted
> Barrier rating is doubled.
>
> >Magic beats up on mundanes easily. That's the point - it's something
> >that is both feared and desired in the shadows. It's Power.
>
> I personally, think the above reasoning is a cop-out. I, personally,
> want
> to have games where the players are motivated to play characters other
> than
> adepts and magicians. Even against spirits mundanes have a chance with
> Willpower. The armor spell effectively negates 95% of the Firearms in
> use
> and requires the application of heavy weapons to be brought against
> the
> magician.
>
Mages have their own problems - they don't get cyber (not if they want
that Spell Pool of 6), they... Never mind. I've had this discussion
before.

James Ojaste

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:40:15 -0700

Message no. 10 >Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;
>
>>All this still doesn't work if the adjusted Barrier Rating is 18, and that
>>sems to be a fair interpretation as it falls under Breaking Through a
>>Barrier.
>
> Ok with a sorcery 6 and force 6 Barrier spell and 6 dice from Spell
>Pool would expect to get a Rating 7 barrier (2 successes vs. target
>number 6) a Troll, Ork, Dwarf, or any street sam with an 8 Strength could
>punch it down.

I doubt it. They'd have to be able to conduct 7 attacks before the end of
the turn, as the Barrier regenerates all damage at the beginning of the
next Combat Turn, p. 198 SR3.

> I am MC23

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:48:14 -0400

Message no. 11 At 12:07 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>
>>Magic beats up on mundanes easily. That's the point - it's something
>>that is both feared and desired in the shadows. It's Power.
>
>I personally, think the above reasoning is a cop-out. I, personally, want
>to have games where the players are motivated to play characters other than
>adepts and magicians. Even against spirits mundanes have a chance with
>Willpower. The armor spell effectively negates 95% of the Firearms in use
>and requires the application of heavy weapons to be brought against the
>magician.
>

Great. I haven't read the section about magic in great depth yet, but if
this is typical of just how powerful magic is in SR3 I may have to water
things down a little. _I_ LIKE the idea of magic being a force to be
reckoned with, but it ALREADY seems like pulling teeth to get my players to
play anything BUT a magical character. My primary campaign has a shaman, a
physical adept, a physical mage and a mundane burglar/conman and two of the
three retired characters were magical. I asked them to build some "quick"
characters for use in a couple of short sessions to test out the SR3 rules
and I end up with a dog shamanist, a hermetic combat mage, a physical adept
and a lawn-dart throwing street samurai.

Now, I have no inherant objections to magical characters and we have had a
blast playing the characters (which is the point afterall), but I do get
tired of being told that "mundanes aren't worth playing...they have no
where to grow, have shallow personalities, can't REALLY stand up to a good
magicker, and just aren't as /cool/...". If mages are getting the type of
power boost your description of the Armor spell hints at, I'm likely to
never have another "non-comic relief" cyber-based character in my SR games
again!
<minorly frustrated GM roles his eyes at the impending flood of deep,
growth enabled, magical powerhouse characters...>

--Blair
------
Blair A. Monroe
Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster
E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:04:10 -0400

Message no. 12 Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>> Ok with a sorcery 6 and force 6 Barrier spell and 6 dice from Spell
>>Pool would expect to get a Rating 7 barrier (2 successes vs. target
>>number 6) a Troll, Ork, Dwarf, or any street sam with an 8 Strength could
>>punch it down.
>
>I doubt it. They'd have to be able to conduct 7 attacks before the end of
>the turn, as the Barrier regenerates all damage at the beginning of the
>next Combat Turn, p. 198 SR3.

Damn, crossed breaking through and attacking through mods. B>[#
Of course attacks like the trolls would still get through even if
the mage might have a 2 to resist. And any serious corp/opponent/whatever
will have ways to deal with magical threats (or they would have gone
under a long time ago). A defenseless opponent is just a cakewalk and
would be for who ever was going against them.
And since you'd rather lock the spell than sustain it you must
acknowledge the risk of having your lock fried.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:23:24 -0700

Message no. 13 > And since you'd rather lock the spell than sustain it you must
>acknowledge the risk of having your lock fried.

Right, but there's nothing a mundane can do about it, which was the entire
point.

> I am MC23

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:49:20 -0400

Message no. 14 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Blair A. Monroe wrote:

->At 12:07 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
->and I end up with a dog shamanist, a hermetic combat mage, a physical adept
->and a lawn-dart throwing street samurai.

Please spot the role-player in this group. ]:-)

->Now, I have no inherant objections to magical characters and we have had a
->blast playing the characters (which is the point afterall), but I do get
->tired of being told that "mundanes aren't worth playing...they have no
->where to grow, have shallow personalities, can't REALLY stand up to a good
->magicker, and just aren't as /cool/...". If mages are getting the type of
->power boost your description of the Armor spell hints at, I'm likely to
->never have another "non-comic relief" cyber-based character in my SR games
->again!

Here's a reccomendation to anyone GMing a "I'm the baddest" Mage:
Narrow hallway and one grenade (GM's choice of type). I don't
care what barrier they have up, it's not going to take the 20+ power level
that grenade will put out, and grenades are a lot cheaper than mages.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:03:34 -0400

Message no. 15 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, David Foster wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Blair A. Monroe wrote:
>
> ->At 12:07 PM 8/17/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
> ->and I end up with a dog shamanist, a hermetic combat mage, a physical adept
> ->and a lawn-dart throwing street samurai.
>
> Please spot the role-player in this group. ]:-)
>
> <snip>

I resent the implication. As one of the maligned players, who was
instructed to build a FUN character for a one shot game, let me give a
better desciption of the characters:

Bar Bob 2060 - Transporting his favorite D&D character into 2060 and
Shadowrun, this Troll Street Samari has a passion for lawn darts and
heavy drinking. He also has a day job as the sports announcer on a pirate
radio station.

Fifi - a burned out poodle shamanist, Fifi handles fashion and the
lovelorn show for the same radio station (Fifi's Phone-in). She has lost
two points of magic - one when she stuck her head out a car window and got
it smashed in and another when she didn't notice a glass door was closed
before she tried to go through it. Her power focus is a multiple
row crystal choker and her hair is dyed the same blue you see on most old
ladies' poodles.

The other two characters - o.k. maybe you have a point, they don't have
concepts . . . But, what can you expect from 21 year old kids :)

- Kama

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:18:40 -0700

Message no. 16 >Adam Getchell wrote:

>Technobabble - take a look at ST:TNG to see how it's done. ;-)
>Seriously, they've got sensors to measure changes in pressure - just
>how does the magic define "sound"? To breathe, you have to take air
>in and push it out again - once you've got air moving you have something
>you can detect.

I like Star Trek. I also like real Physics, hence "technobabble" doesn't
cut it for me.

Sound is a longitudinal pressure wave detectable by humans at frequencies
of 50 - 20,000 Hz. Anything that dampened sound would by its nature have to
dampen transient pressure gradients.

>This was in response to your BR 9 paragraph - I responded to your BR 18
>paragraph later. In SR3, I haven't found anything saying that the base
>power is what's used (which makes sense - 3 solid slug rounds from a
>shotgun *has* to do more damage than 1).

Sure, but 3 solid slug rounds don't penetrate armor any better than 1 solid
slug round. That is why base Power level is used. Once the slugs penetrate
the armor (exceed the barrier), then you can add in the Power level
increases from extra shots. But to paraphrase Hatchetman in SSC, an
autofire machine pistol just allows you to flatten light ammo against body
armor faster than before.

>Huh? Don't you mean rapid-fire cannon instead of single-shot-type
>cannon? The reason they don't is barrel overheating and loading speed,
>AFAICR.

I meant to point out that if the number of rounds that impinged upon armor
had any relation to the armor penetrating qualities of those rounds, then
the military would be using giant shotguns with thousands of rounds to go
through tank armor. The fact is they don't, because number of rounds does
*NOT* affect penetration in the slightest. Therefore, only base Power Level
should be used.

No, the point is, if you want to penetrate armor, you use something like
the Ruhrmetall 120mm smoothbore with APFSDSDU (Armor piercing
fin-stabilized discarding sabot depleted uranium), i.e., something with a
high base power. You do not use the Busmaster 25mm cannon and expect that
the 60 or so rounds it fires (i.e. total adjusted power) are going to
penetrate the frontal armor of an MBT.

>Again, I don't see any references to "base power" in SR3.

Sure, this is in SR2 and Rigger2. It's also reflective of real life. I'm
not assuming that SR3 automatically overturns SR2 rules until I read it.

>So you were basing this all on just SR2. *That's* what I didn't get,
>since we're supposed to be talking about SR3 (you *were* complaining
>about magic in SR3, after all). I believe that ammo upgrades were
>included in the base power of the attack in SR2 anyway.

No, I was basing this on the barrier rules in SR3. Show me where it says
not to use the base power of the round, since that's been understood since
Rigger Black Book, and I'll agree.

>To sum up: SR2 says "base power", SR3 says "power". SR2 should
not be
>a prerequisite to SR3, therefore SR3 must stand on its own.

See above.

>Extra successes are all you need, and what sams get.

Combat Pool + Body at TN 2 vs. your extra successes = no damage.

>As long as the barrier isn't penetrated.

Right. That was my question ... are we using Breeching Barrier rules? It
doesn't specify one way or another.

>Mages have their own problems - they don't get cyber (not if they want
>that Spell Pool of 6), they... Never mind. I've had this discussion
>before.

Perhaps instead of trying to question the validity of my questions someone
might come up with answers?

>James Ojaste

Thanks,
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:00:34 +0100

Message no. 17 And verily, did Adam Getchell hastily scribble thusly...
|Sound is a longitudinal pressure wave detectable by humans at frequencies
|of 50 - 20,000 Hz. Anything that dampened sound would by its nature have to
|dampen transient pressure gradients.

I've heard the frequency range as 20Hz to 20KHz, but then, I'm being
nitpicky....

:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:19:26 -0700

Message no. 18 >And verily, did Adam Getchell hastily scribble thusly...
>|Sound is a longitudinal pressure wave detectable by humans at frequencies
>|of 50 - 20,000 Hz. Anything that dampened sound would by its nature have to
>|dampen transient pressure gradients.
>
>I've heard the frequency range as 20Hz to 20KHz, but then, I'm being
>nitpicky....

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure most people cannot detect below 50 Hz, but I'll have
to check.

>:)

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:19:50 -0500

Message no. 19 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, David Foster wrote:

> Here's a reccomendation to anyone GMing a "I'm the baddest"
> Mage: Narrow hallway and one grenade (GM's choice of type). I
> don't care what barrier they have up, it's not going to take the 20+
> power level that grenade will put out, and grenades are a lot
> cheaper than mages.

Hehe. The Chunky Salsa Effect is one of the best named rules i have
ever seen. The rule reflects reality, is fairly simple, and has a
very descriptive name. Now i only need to find a chance to use it. :)

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:38:52 -0400

Message no. 20 On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:

->>And verily, did Adam Getchell hastily scribble thusly...
->>|Sound is a longitudinal pressure wave detectable by humans at frequencies
->>|of 50 - 20,000 Hz. Anything that dampened sound would by its nature have to
->>|dampen transient pressure gradients.
->>
->>I've heard the frequency range as 20Hz to 20KHz, but then, I'm being
->>nitpicky....
->
->Hmmm. I'm pretty sure most people cannot detect below 50 Hz, but I'll have
->to check.

I try not to post off-topic, but I have to ask because the subject
is up. What is the frequency of the sound created by a television or
monitor being on? I mean no sound being generated by what's on the
device, just the actual frequency. You know, you walk into a room with a
bunch of monitors and you can hear one of them being on.. maybe I'm just
wierd like that.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:59:58 -0700

Message no. 21 > I try not to post off-topic, but I have to ask because the subject
>is up. What is the frequency of the sound created by a television or
>monitor being on? I mean no sound being generated by what's on the
>device, just the actual frequency. You know, you walk into a room with a
>bunch of monitors and you can hear one of them being on.. maybe I'm just
>wierd like that.

Well, most multisynch monitors flicker at from 60 -110 Hz, it's usually set
by the graphics card and/or OS. There would be a relationship between the
scan rate of the electron gun in the cathode ray tube and potential noises,
though usually it isn't audible. There must be some old and/or monitors in
the process of breaking in that room ...

Back to SR3 ...

It's possible to flicker at particular frequencies (the eye normally
doesn't distinguish 75 Hz, but could easily distinguish 60 Hz) in such a
way as to cause an increased probability of inducing epileptic effects.
For those really old-fashioned turtles it would be an interesting peice of
IC ... or perhaps it could be induced into the "WebTV" equivalent of Trid
...

Some sort of flasher gun which even appeared in an old sci-fi flick called
"Scanners", if memory serves.

>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:31:20 +1000

Message no. 22 Adam Getchell writes:
> It's possible to flicker at particular frequencies (the eye normally
> doesn't distinguish 75 Hz, but could easily distinguish 60 Hz) in such a
> way as to cause an increased probability of inducing epileptic effects.

Adam, that's old news... read the warning label on Nintendo or Playstation
games some time. :)

(Not to mention things like Quake, which some members here can't play for
that exact reason)

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:25:57 -0500

Message no. 23 >Some sort of flasher gun which even appeared in an old sci-fi flick called
>"Scanners", if memory serves.

Don't recall such in SCANNERS, but I do remember a similar gizmo in LOOKER
(James Coburn, Albert Finney, and Susan Dey). It didn't induce epileptic
episodes, but it did cause some time loss on the part of the victim.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:46:58 -0500

Message no. 24 > Back to SR3 ...

If you say so.... (heh)

> It's possible to flicker at particular frequencies (the eye normally
> doesn't distinguish 75 Hz, but could easily distinguish 60 Hz) in such a
> way as to cause an increased probability of inducing epileptic effects.
> For those really old-fashioned turtles it would be an interesting peice of
> IC ... or perhaps it could be induced into the "WebTV" equivalent of Trid

There was an anime in Japan a few months back that did just that to the
kiddies. (I don't recall the name, but I think there were plans for a
'watered down' version in the US).

Interesting form of baby-sitting, if you ask me. ;)

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:57:29 -0700

Message no. 25 > From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>

> Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

> >Sorcery Pool and Spell Pool can be used for spell defense. So, a typical
> >magician can allocate 12 Spell Defense. Is that right?
>
> There is only Spell Pool.

> >Illusions are now extremely powerful. A magician can cast a Force 6
> >Improved Invisibility and throw 12 dice, getting an average of 6
successes
> >(at TN 4). With that number of successes, it is impossible for a
character
> >with an Intelligence of less than 7 to see the magician (and even then
they
> >would have to roll 7 sixes). As a practical matter, a magician doing
this
> >is going to be undetectable, no matter how many guards and cameras are
> >looking. All this for 4M drain. Oh, probably should add in the Force 6
> >Sustaining Focus to make things more convenient. Also, unlike the
Silence
> >spell, maximum successes are not proscribed by Force.

Two words: Shag Carpet.

Caric :)

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 03:12:03 -0400

Message no. 26 Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>Right, but there's nothing a mundane can do about it, which was the entire
>point.

Please define the mundane you are refering to.

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:03:01 +0100

Message no. 27 And verily, did David Foster hastily scribble thusly...
| I try not to post off-topic, but I have to ask because the subject
|is up. What is the frequency of the sound created by a television or
|monitor being on?

In britain the line frequency is 15625 Hz, but in america that'll be
different. (I think you have a 60Hz frame rate over there, and I'm not sure
if you run on 625 lines....)
This is for TV of course. Monitors can be much higher these days.

I mean no sound being generated by what's on the
|device, just the actual frequency. You know, you walk into a room with a
|bunch of monitors and you can hear one of them being on.. maybe I'm just
|wierd like that.

You might be (if it's a low sound you're hearing) hearing the mains
frequency. 60Hz in US. 50Hz in Britain.

(That's why I know 50Hz is not on the very edge of perception. I can here
it)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:11:57 +0100

Message no. 28 |Two words: Shag Carpet.

Hu huhuhu hu...
He said Shag...
Hu huhuhuhuhu hu....

:)

<Not that I actually like Beavis and Butthead or anything>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:51:58 -0400

Message no. 29 Adam Getchell wrote:
> >Technobabble - take a look at ST:TNG to see how it's done. ;-)
> >Seriously, they've got sensors to measure changes in pressure - just
> >how does the magic define "sound"? To breathe, you have to take air
> >in and push it out again - once you've got air moving you have
> something
> >you can detect.
>
> I like Star Trek. I also like real Physics, hence "technobabble"
> doesn't
> cut it for me.
>
Sure, physics can be fun, but ST:TNG doesn't do physics. I just meant
that it doesn't really matter - in the SR universe they can do things
that stretch what we call physics *plus* magic. I wouldn't know how to
start describing most of their tech.

> Sound is a longitudinal pressure wave detectable by humans at
> frequencies
> of 50 - 20,000 Hz. Anything that dampened sound would by its nature
> have to
> dampen transient pressure gradients.
>
It's *magic*. It does what it likes. I don't know how it works, and
neither do you. So make something up according to your game. Since
you can't actually know how it works, it's technobabble - providing
an explanation using technical terms that may or may not apply, let
alone make sense.

> >This was in response to your BR 9 paragraph - I responded to your BR
> 18
> >paragraph later. In SR3, I haven't found anything saying that the
> base
> >power is what's used (which makes sense - 3 solid slug rounds from a
> >shotgun *has* to do more damage than 1).
>
> Sure, but 3 solid slug rounds don't penetrate armor any better than 1
> solid
> slug round. That is why base Power level is used. Once the slugs
> penetrate
>
Sure they do. Try taking a piece of tin and bending it 90 degrees.
Did you break it? No. Bend it back and forth several more times and
eventually it will snap - you're not exerting any more *pressure*, but
you *are* adding to the *force* that you've applied, weakening the
metal.

> the armor (exceed the barrier), then you can add in the Power level
> increases from extra shots. But to paraphrase Hatchetman in SSC, an
> autofire machine pistol just allows you to flatten light ammo against
> body
> armor faster than before.
>
You're making up rules here. First limiting stuff to base power, then
if it exceeds the barrier you can add in the power increase? It's not
printed in SR3 and no errata have been published yet. So I choose not
to accept it.

> >Huh? Don't you mean rapid-fire cannon instead of single-shot-type
> >cannon? The reason they don't is barrel overheating and loading
> speed,
> >AFAICR.
>
> I meant to point out that if the number of rounds that impinged upon
> armor
> had any relation to the armor penetrating qualities of those rounds,
> then
> the military would be using giant shotguns with thousands of rounds to
> go
> through tank armor. The fact is they don't, because number of rounds
> does
> *NOT* affect penetration in the slightest. Therefore, only base Power
> Level
> should be used.
>
Splitting the power of the attack from one round into several tends to
mean side effects like increasing the overall contact area, decreasing
the power delivered by area, thus decreasing the penetration. However,
which do you think would be more effective? Firing one APFSDSDUT or
firing 3 (each at the power of the single round, mind you)?

> No, the point is, if you want to penetrate armor, you use something
> like
> the Ruhrmetall 120mm smoothbore with APFSDSDU (Armor piercing
> fin-stabilized discarding sabot depleted uranium), i.e., something
> with a
>
You can make the acronym longer by sticking a T on the end.

> high base power. You do not use the Busmaster 25mm cannon and expect
> that
> the 60 or so rounds it fires (i.e. total adjusted power) are going to
> penetrate the frontal armor of an MBT.
>
I wrote something here but it wasn't very polite. In short, you aren't
delivering the same amount of energy with a single round as with three,
you're delivering 1/3 the energy with 1/3 the contact area. There's
a big difference.

> >Again, I don't see any references to "base power" in SR3.
>
> Sure, this is in SR2 and Rigger2. It's also reflective of real life.
> I'm
> not assuming that SR3 automatically overturns SR2 rules until I read
> it.
>
Huh? So you expect every new player that buys SR3 to go out and get a
copy of SR2? Not going to happen.

> >So you were basing this all on just SR2. *That's* what I didn't get,
> >since we're supposed to be talking about SR3 (you *were* complaining
> >about magic in SR3, after all). I believe that ammo upgrades were
> >included in the base power of the attack in SR2 anyway.
>
> No, I was basing this on the barrier rules in SR3. Show me where it
> says
> not to use the base power of the round, since that's been understood
> since
> Rigger Black Book, and I'll agree.
>
It hasn't been understood, it's been stated explicitly. Not, it is
conspicuously absent - I noticed it immediately and sat up. Does it
*really* make that much sense that firing a shotgun at a wall in BF
mode is *less* effective at destroying the barrier than firing a single
shot three times?

> >Extra successes are all you need, and what sams get.
>
> Combat Pool + Body at TN 2 vs. your extra successes = no damage.
>
If you're rolling enough dice. With your SP of 6, that leaves very few
dice for quickness and body. A sam with a skill of 7, smartlink, blah
blah blah will end up looking for 2s as well *and* be rolling more dice,
*and* have the damage code start at at least M (if you happen to get the
same number of successes, you'll *still* take an M).

> >Mages have their own problems - they don't get cyber (not if they
> want
> >that Spell Pool of 6), they... Never mind. I've had this discussion
> >before.
>
> Perhaps instead of trying to question the validity of my questions
> someone
> might come up with answers?
>
If the question is not valid, the answer cannot be valid.

James Ojaste

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:50:59 -0700

Message no. 30 >It's *magic*. It does what it likes. I don't know how it works, and
>neither do you. So make something up according to your game. Since
>you can't actually know how it works, it's technobabble - providing
>an explanation using technical terms that may or may not apply, let
>alone make sense.

In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Also known as "hand-waving". I try not to
do such things. Whatever magic is, that is X, one can treat it like a black
box, and without necessarily knowing the mechanism one can still say that,
to muffle sound, one must muffle pressure gradients. Magic does intersect
with physics.

>Sure they do. Try taking a piece of tin and bending it 90 degrees.
>Did you break it? No. Bend it back and forth several more times and
>eventually it will snap - you're not exerting any more *pressure*, but
>you *are* adding to the *force* that you've applied, weakening the
>metal.

This is accumulated metal fatigue caused by exceeding the plastic
deformation limit of the material. This is not related to multiple shots.
But it serves roughly as a good counterexample. To be able to cause the tin
to fail by fatigue you've got to exert some minimum force to be able to
bend it, right? If you can't even bend it, how can you make it fail?
Similiarly, if one bullet can't penetrate a barrier, how can multiple
bullets do the same?

>You're making up rules here. First limiting stuff to base power, then
>if it exceeds the barrier you can add in the power increase? It's not
>printed in SR3 and no errata have been published yet. So I choose not
>to accept it.

No, I'm not. This has not been clarified either way. You can choose not to
accept it, I can choose to accept it. But if you recourse to physics then
it should be true.

>Splitting the power of the attack from one round into several tends to
>mean side effects like increasing the overall contact area, decreasing
>the power delivered by area, thus decreasing the penetration. However,
>which do you think would be more effective? Firing one APFSDSDUT or
>firing 3 (each at the power of the single round, mind you)?

If you were to take a total overall kinetic energy and put it into 1 round,
it would have more penetration/effect than if you were to split the kinetic
energy into 3 rounds.

>I wrote something here but it wasn't very polite. In short, you aren't
>delivering the same amount of energy with a single round as with three,
>you're delivering 1/3 the energy with 1/3 the contact area. There's
>a big difference.

If you want to deform armor, you are talking about applied stresses and
impulses. Stress *increases* as surface area *decreases*. Impulse
*increases* as impact time *decreases*. Both mean increased armor
penetration. To get the smallest area with the highest velocity with a
given amount of kinetic energy, you fire a single dart if possible, not 3,
10, or 100.

>It hasn't been understood, it's been stated explicitly. Not, it is
>conspicuously absent - I noticed it immediately and sat up. Does it
>*really* make that much sense that firing a shotgun at a wall in BF
>mode is *less* effective at destroying the barrier than firing a single
>shot three times?

Yes, with the proper understanding of physics.

>If the question is not valid, the answer cannot be valid.

Riiight. Once again, you are engaging in argument for argument's sake,
rather than for clarification.

>James Ojaste

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:09:01 -0700

Message no. 31 >Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;
>
>>Right, but there's nothing a mundane can do about it, which was the entire
>>point.
>
> Please define the mundane you are refering to.

Anyone without magic.
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:28:06 -0400

Message no. 32 Adam Getchell wrote:
> >Sure they do. Try taking a piece of tin and bending it 90 degrees.
> >Did you break it? No. Bend it back and forth several more times and
> >eventually it will snap - you're not exerting any more *pressure*, but
> >you *are* adding to the *force* that you've applied, weakening the
> >metal.
>
> This is accumulated metal fatigue caused by exceeding the plastic
> deformation limit of the material. This is not related to multiple shots.
> But it serves roughly as a good counterexample. To be able to cause the
> tin
> to fail by fatigue you've got to exert some minimum force to be able to
> bend it, right? If you can't even bend it, how can you make it fail?
> Similiarly, if one bullet can't penetrate a barrier, how can multiple
> bullets do the same?
>
According to page 124 of the BB, if the power is >= 1/2 the
adjusted barrier rating, the barrier rating is lowered by 1. That's
what I was trying to simulate - every bend lowers the strength of the
metal.

> >Splitting the power of the attack from one round into several tends to
> >mean side effects like increasing the overall contact area, decreasing
> >the power delivered by area, thus decreasing the penetration. However,
> >which do you think would be more effective? Firing one APFSDSDUT or
> >firing 3 (each at the power of the single round, mind you)?
>
> If you were to take a total overall kinetic energy and put it into 1
> round,
> it would have more penetration/effect than if you were to split the
> kinetic
> energy into 3 rounds.
>
Obviously. However, that's not how guns work in SR3. They fire a given
number of rounds and each round delivers the same amount of energy. If
you fire 3 rounds, you're obviously delivering 3 times the energy - not
all at once, so it won't penetrate as easily as if you just multiplied
the energy of one round by 3, but it's still 3 times the energy.

> >It hasn't been understood, it's been stated explicitly. Not, it is
> >conspicuously absent - I noticed it immediately and sat up. Does it
> >*really* make that much sense that firing a shotgun at a wall in BF
> >mode is *less* effective at destroying the barrier than firing a single
> >shot three times?
>
> Yes, with the proper understanding of physics.
>
Huh? OK. Example time. Let's say Joe is standing in a hallway. The
BR of the walls is a 6 (Heavy Material). He's holding a shotgun firing
solid slugs doing 8S. To his left, he fires three rounds (as 3 simple
actions) into the wall (power 8, adjusted BR 12, result: BR is reduced
by 1 each shot, thus the base BR drops to 3). To his right, he fires
a burst (as 1 simple action) into the wall (base power 8, adjusted BR
12, result: BR is reduced by 1, the base BR drops to 5).

Please explain how physics predicts this behaviour.

> >If the question is not valid, the answer cannot be valid.
>
> Riiight. Once again, you are engaging in argument for argument's sake,
> rather than for clarification.
>
I do admit that I enjoy some argument (argument stimulates thought),
but this case is an exception. I don't think that you really understand
what I'm trying to say.

James Ojaste

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:52:00 -0700

Message no. 33 >According to page 124 of the BB, if the power is >= 1/2 the
>adjusted barrier rating, the barrier rating is lowered by 1. That's
>what I was trying to simulate - every bend lowers the strength of the
>metal.

Right, I noted that way back when we were first talking about the barrier
rating of a spell.

>Obviously. However, that's not how guns work in SR3. They fire a given
>number of rounds and each round delivers the same amount of energy. If
>you fire 3 rounds, you're obviously delivering 3 times the energy - not
>all at once, so it won't penetrate as easily as if you just multiplied
>the energy of one round by 3, but it's still 3 times the energy.

Three times the energy ... to where? If, by some odd chance of fate, each
bullet were to hit the exact same spot, you would be delivering the same
amount of energy 3 times to that area. More likely, though, you'd deliver
that energy to three different areas. In either case, if you didn't exceed
plastic deformation of the material with a single dosage of energy, you
would not permanently bend the material (you'd be in the elastic area of
the stress-strain curve, where deformation is temporary). Is that clear?

>Huh? OK. Example time. Let's say Joe is standing in a hallway. The
>BR of the walls is a 6 (Heavy Material). He's holding a shotgun firing
>solid slugs doing 8S. To his left, he fires three rounds (as 3 simple
>actions) into the wall (power 8, adjusted BR 12, result: BR is reduced
>by 1 each shot, thus the base BR drops to 3). To his right, he fires
>a burst (as 1 simple action) into the wall (base power 8, adjusted BR
>12, result: BR is reduced by 1, the base BR drops to 5).
>
>Please explain how physics predicts this behaviour.

Aha, good example. The barrier rules, as Steve mentioned, are broken, and
this is an example of why. In real life, there would be no difference
between the two. (The automatic fire would not damage the barrier more than
the single shots, either.)

>James Ojaste

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:39:21 -0400

Message no. 34 Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>> Please define the mundane you are referring to.
>
>Anyone without magic.

Nuclear bomb.
Do you want to tighten the definition?

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:13:47 -0700

Message no. 35 >Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;
>
>>> Please define the mundane you are referring to.
>>
>>Anyone without magic.

The reason for the broad definition was simply that I was limiting options
to what a mundane, that is, non-magical, person could do against Barrier
spells. Dispelling them and sic'ing air elementals on the caster was not
one of them.

> Nuclear bomb.
>Do you want to tighten the definition?

Sure, do you mean implosion, gun, phoenix-fusion, tritium trigger, fission,
fusion, fission-fusion ... ;-)

Of course, regardless of the definition it still "blowed up good", neh? ;-)

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:15:58 +0100

Message no. 36 And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;
|
|>> Please define the mundane you are referring to.
|>
|>Anyone without magic.
|
| Nuclear bomb.
|Do you want to tighten the definition?
|

How do you tighten that? It's pretty water tight as it is.
A mundane is one who has no Magic Attribute, and is therefore incapable of
manipulating astral energy in any way.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:32:27 -0400

Message no. 37 Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>> Nuclear bomb.
>>Do you want to tighten the definition?
>
>Sure, do you mean implosion, gun, phoenix-fusion, tritium trigger, fission,
>fusion, fission-fusion ... ;-)
>
>Of course, regardless of the definition it still "blowed up good", neh? ;-)

"Yep, blowed up real good" B>]#

A sniper team could be another (and far more common) answer.
Double Tap.

The late Cavalier was always on the lookout for the ideal mage
killer gun. His favorite up to his death was the Mossberg and a grenade
launcher. He had this beleif that mages blow up (from grounding stories)
and was proven right in the end. B>[#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

CRY HAVOC! And let slip the flames of SR3

I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:34:34 -0400

Message no. 38 Once upon a time, Spike wrote;

>And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
>|
>|Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;
>|
>|>> Please define the mundane you are referring to.
>|>
>|>Anyone without magic.
>|
>| Nuclear bomb.
>|Do you want to tighten the definition?
>|
>
>How do you tighten that? It's pretty water tight as it is.
>A mundane is one who has no Magic Attribute, and is therefore incapable of
>manipulating astral energy in any way.

I was wondering what groups of mundanes were the ones concerned with
dealing the magician.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

CRY HAVOC! And let slip the flames of SR3

I am MC23

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:37:41 +0100

Message no. 39 And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
| I was wondering what groups of mundanes were the ones concerned with
|dealing the magician.

Anyone with a nice big gun perhaps?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:35:18 +0000

Message no. 40 Adam Getchell wrote:

> >It's *magic*. It does what it likes. I don't know how it works, and
> >neither do you. So make something up according to your game. Since
> >you can't actually know how it works, it's technobabble - providing
> >an explanation using technical terms that may or may not apply, let
> >alone make sense.
>
> In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Also known as "hand-waving". I try not to
> do such things. Whatever magic is, that is X, one can treat it like a black
> box, and without necessarily knowing the mechanism one can still say that,
> to muffle sound, one must muffle pressure gradients. Magic does intersect
> with physics.

Not necessarily. Magic *might* use physics to dampen sound, or it it *might*
just affect the ears, listening devices, or minds surrounding the target. No
one can really say. So yes you CAN assume that magic in your game just
controls pressure gradients to muffle sound, but that is no more or less
plausible then saying that it just does because it is *magic*.

Caric

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:15:07 -0300

Message no. 41 XaOs wrote:
>
> There was an anime in Japan a few months back that did just that to the
> kiddies. (I don't recall the name, but I think there were plans for a
> 'watered down' version in the US).

Pocket Monster ("Pokemon"). And they can't water it down more than
it already is, it's a kid's anime :) .

Bira

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:52:50 -0300

Message no. 42 > In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Also known as "hand-waving". I try not to
> do such things. Whatever magic is, that is X, one can treat it like a black
> box, and without necessarily knowing the mechanism one can still say that,
> to muffle sound, one must muffle pressure gradients. Magic does intersect
> with physics.

As far as SR goes, I think it doesn't.

Bira

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:12:27 -0700

Message no. 43 >Adam Getchell wrote:
>Not necessarily. Magic *might* use physics to dampen sound, or it it *might*
>just affect the ears, listening devices, or minds surrounding the target. No
>one can really say. So yes you CAN assume that magic in your game just
>controls pressure gradients to muffle sound, but that is no more or less
>plausible then saying that it just does because it is *magic*.

Right, that's why there's physical spells and mana spells. ;-) Physical
spells affect the physical world, mana spells affect the minds of the
targets.

Furthermore, there are Transformation Manipulations and Elemental
Manipulations and Illusions. Spells are divided up in SR by effect. They
follow rules. There is an internal logic to magic ... whoops, going
hermetic.

Sure, magic is *magic*, but there are some very well known ground rules,
neh? ;-) In physics, we call those Laws when they are understood but can't
be proven, such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics or Newton's Law of
Gravitation.

>Caric

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:23:42 -0400

Message no. 44 On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Caric wrote:

->Adam Getchell wrote:
->
->> >It's *magic*. It does what it likes. I don't know how it works, and
->> >neither do you. So make something up according to your game. Since
->> >you can't actually know how it works, it's technobabble - providing
->> >an explanation using technical terms that may or may not apply, let
->> >alone make sense.
->>
->> In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Also known as "hand-waving". I try
not to
->> do such things. Whatever magic is, that is X, one can treat it like a black
->> box, and without necessarily knowing the mechanism one can still say that,
->> to muffle sound, one must muffle pressure gradients. Magic does intersect
->> with physics.
->
->Not necessarily. Magic *might* use physics to dampen sound, or it it *might*
->just affect the ears, listening devices, or minds surrounding the target. No
->one can really say. So yes you CAN assume that magic in your game just
->controls pressure gradients to muffle sound, but that is no more or less
->plausible then saying that it just does because it is *magic*.

If it is a Mana spell, it's affecting the minds of those
surrounding the target. If it's a physical spell, it can be assumed to
altering the actual physical properties of the sound.
Or, at least, that what I understand from the Grimoire.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:20:24 -0300

Message no. 45 Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> >Adam Getchell wrote:
> >Not necessarily. Magic *might* use physics to dampen sound, or it it *might*
> >just affect the ears, listening devices, or minds surrounding the target. No
> >one can really say. So yes you CAN assume that magic in your game just
> >controls pressure gradients to muffle sound, but that is no more or less
> >plausible then saying that it just does because it is *magic*.
>
> Right, that's why there's physical spells and mana spells. ;-) Physical
> spells affect the physical world, mana spells affect the minds of the
> targets.
>
> Furthermore, there are Transformation Manipulations and Elemental
> Manipulations and Illusions. Spells are divided up in SR by effect. They
> follow rules. There is an internal logic to magic ... whoops, going
> hermetic.
>
> Sure, magic is *magic*, but there are some very well known ground rules,
> neh? ;-) In physics, we call those Laws when they are understood but can't
> be proven, such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics or Newton's Law of
> Gravitation.

Still, it doesn't mean magic has to follow physics... Somewhere in
the BBB there's a fictionalk article saying something about that. If
magic was understanble by any form of science, we would be able to
build "mana batteries", and "mana meters" to measure magic.

Bira

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:44:45 -0700

Message no. 46 > Still, it doesn't mean magic has to follow physics... Somewhere in
>the BBB there's a fictionalk article saying something about that. If
>magic was understanble by any form of science, we would be able to
>build "mana batteries", and "mana meters" to measure magic.

By definition it follows physics ... a physics expanded to account for
astral space and metaplanes. Remember Ben Franklin and his kite experiment
... that was in the late 1700s. Franklin discussed electricity in terms of
a positive and negative fluid ... essentially correct (though he got the
signs wrong).

It took James Clerk Maxwell and Maxwell's equations in the late 1800's
before we ever had a solid theory on electricity and magnetism. And of
course, he based his work upon Ampere, Gauss, and numerous others. It took
Tesla and Edison the early part of this century (and late last century) to
build practical devices using electricity. The gap between theory and
practice was at least a century.

So perhaps in 2130 there might be mana meters or mana batteries ... in
fact, they already have mana batteries. It's called "orichalcum".

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:46:36 -0300

Message no. 47 >
> By definition it follows physics ... a physics expanded to account for
> astral space and metaplanes.

Why them Physical Sciences and Magic Theory are separated? Their
essences are different, I think.

> So perhaps in 2130 there might be mana meters or mana batteries ... in
> fact, they already have mana batteries. It's called "orichalcum".

Can you power your digital watch with orichalcum? Tought not :) .

You seem to play Magic the card game, or am I mistaken?

Bira

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:28:30 -0500

Message no. 48 On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:46:36 -0300 "Ubiratan P. Alberton"
<ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR> writes:
>> By definition it follows physics ... a physics expanded to account for
>> astral space and metaplanes.

> Why them Physical Sciences and Magic Theory are separated? Their
>essences are different, I think.

>> So perhaps in 2130 there might be mana meters or mana batteries ... in
>> fact, they already have mana batteries. It's called "orichalcum".

> Can you power your digital watch with orichalcum? Tought not :) .
>
> You seem to play Magic the card game, or am I mistaken?
>
> Bira

Okay, I wanted to stay out of this but oh well. Everybody should be
careful on this thread because, IMO, it comes rather close to "is magic
real?" (though in a really sideways thinking sort of way.)

First, the game rules are laid down by FASA. Sometimes, the game is
intentionally skewed from reality for playability (as is mentioned in the
section on firearm ROFs in SR2). You can choose to alter those rules as
wish.

Second some of the atomosphere/feel of magic is fleshed out by FASA. It
is up to you to ignore what is laid out and/or expand upon it.

Magic definately follows rules. If it didn't, a mage would be as likely
to heal you as toast or summon a spirit.

Physics, and all sciences for that matter, in 2011+ would be updated to
include magic as needed. This is "easier" than you may believe. Physics
isn't one equation that explains everything. There is an equation for
gravatational pull. There is an equation for the speed of light through
a material (that's not the right word ... mixture? substance?) that has
such as such properties. In short, the first thing that would happen is
equations would be developed for magical phenomena (dit-do-da-do! [damn
muppets! ;]), whether these equations fall under magical theory or
physical sciences is of little or no consequence. Expect to see a lot of
post-awakening physics majors with a minor in thaumaturgy. It won't be a
strecth for them.

Also, remember, once something is created by magic, it still obeys the
laws of physics. If you cast a light spell, the light still travels from
where the effect is created at the speed of mundane light.

Now, if you want an explaination for why magical theory is seperate from
physical sciences/physics, then consider physical sciences (physics
[thaumaturgy]) the pure theory skill and magical theory the applied
theory skill (there is a difference).

As for mana batteries, Bira, he (I *think* it was Adam Getchell) meant a
battery that could store mana, not a magical battery that could be used
to power normal devices. (Though such a device could exist. Quicken a
"Generate electrical current" [physical spell] to an electrical device
and voila.) As such, foci/fetishes could be seen as batteries of sorts
... I don't know about orichalcum.

Does that help?
If you don't agree, most likely you won't agree and the discussion should
be dropped. (not because I presented such a persuasive argument that it
is the end-all but rather because this discussion has gone on for a while
and has seen much repetition.)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:47:43 +0100

Message no. 49 And verily, did Alfredo B Alves hastily scribble thusly...
|Physics, and all sciences for that matter, in 2011+ would be updated to
|include magic as needed. This is "easier" than you may believe. Physics
|isn't one equation that explains everything. There is an equation for
|gravatational pull. There is an equation for the speed of light through
|a material (that's not the right word ... mixture? substance?)

Medium.... After all, a vacuum has no subsctance....
:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space
Date:	Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:44:13 -0500

Message no. 50 ----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>

> And verily, did Alfredo B Alves hastily scribble thusly...
> |Physics, and all sciences for that matter, in 2011+ would be updated to
> |include magic as needed. This is "easier" than you may believe.
Physics
> |isn't one equation that explains everything. There is an equation for
> |gravatational pull. There is an equation for the speed of light
through
> |a material (that's not the right word ... mixture? substance?)
>
> Medium.... After all, a vacuum has no subsctance....

Just like most of Spike's posts <g>

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"

Message no. 51 And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|> Medium.... After all, a vacuum has no subsctance....
|
|Just like most of Spike's posts <g>

Well... Pthtththtbnt to you.
:-p

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 52 ----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>

> And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
> |> Medium.... After all, a vacuum has no subsctance....
> |
> |Just like most of Spike's posts <g>
>
> Well... Pthtththtbnt to you.
> :-p

I rest my case <g>

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"

Message no. 53 > Can you power your digital watch with orichalcum? Tought not :) .

Let's remember that physics describes the bounds of reality. I could
attempt to power a digital watch with a windmill, but that would be
impractical. It doesn't mean that aerodynamics has no validity. In fact,
Physics tends to serve very well as a "reality check" for various wacky
ideas. ;-)

> You seem to play Magic the card game, or am I mistaken?

Actually, I don't, except socially. My friends have decks, I don't.
Speaking of teeth, where did that come from? ;-)

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

Message no. 54 Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> > Can you power your digital watch with orichalcum? Tought not :) .
>
> Let's remember that physics describes the bounds of reality. I could
> attempt to power a digital watch with a windmill, but that would be
> impractical. It doesn't mean that aerodynamics has no validity. In fact,
> Physics tends to serve very well as a "reality check" for various wacky
> ideas. ;-)
>

I think we better stop this... None of us will be convinced anyway,
as Alfredo said. Better wait 'till 2024 comes around :) .

Bira

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