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Message no. 1
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 11:23:48 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/98 10:20:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
XRacer8654@***.COM writes:

> Anyone know why this change has been made? It really changes the Sixth
World.
> I can only hope that MITS will shed some light on it.

Mike and Steve explained the change as "mana has evolved to the point where
mages can pass through living things, but not without some form of hindrance."

> Also any idea if initiation is going to go through any major changes in
MITS
> other then Meta-abilities will now be one per grade?

Nope, no clue ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:44:18 -0600
David Blank wrote:
/
/ Now that I've had a chance to read through the book, I see that they have made
/ a major change to Astral Space. Living Matter no longer blocks Astral
/ Movement. SR3 had a couple examples of Astral mages moving through people.
/ That's one big change which I don't know if I'm going to use (which means that
/ I'm only going to be able to use about 99% of the rest of SR3 ;) ).
/
/ Anyone know why this change has been made? It really changes the Sixth World.
/ I can only hope that MITS will shed some light on it.

One of the main reasons was to resolve conflicts that the old astral
rules generated. Under SR2 and Grimmy rules there was considerable
debate as to how astral beings would affect the real world under
certain conditions. And when FAB (Fat Bacteria) came into the mix, it
created a lot of headaches (and one of the largest, and most convoluted
threads, to ever hit ShadowRN).

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:04:59 EDT
Astral interaction (I'll certainly shed no tears for the removal of grounding)
caused a lot of problems and FAB (Fat Bacteria) created even more headaches.
As I said before Mike and eveyone else did an absolutley wonderful job on
SR3. This is just kinda sudden.

Just as one example, just how did Ares take care of the Bugs in Chicago? I'll
buy the change in the Mana level story, but it should be some sort of major
earth shaking (at least on the magical front) event. Maybe MITS will cover
more on this, but a little warning would have been nice.


In a message dated 8/16/98 1:44:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> David Blank wrote:
> /
> / Now that I've had a chance to read through the book, I see that they have
> made
> / a major change to Astral Space. Living Matter no longer blocks Astral
> / Movement. SR3 had a couple examples of Astral mages moving through
people.
> / That's one big change which I don't know if I'm going to use (which means
> that
> / I'm only going to be able to use about 99% of the rest of SR3 ;) ).
> /
> / Anyone know why this change has been made? It really changes the Sixth
> World.
> / I can only hope that MITS will shed some light on it.
>
> One of the main reasons was to resolve conflicts that the old astral
> rules generated. Under SR2 and Grimmy rules there was considerable
> debate as to how astral beings would affect the real world under
> certain conditions. And when FAB (Fat Bacteria) came into the mix, it
> created a lot of headaches (and one of the largest, and most convoluted
> threads, to ever hit ShadowRN).
>
> -David
Message no. 4
From: "RazorGirl ." <chumlikin@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 12:12:59 PDT
> I'll buy the change in the Mana level story, but it should be some
>sort of major earth shaking (at least on the magical front) event.
>Maybe MITS will cover more on this, but a little warning would have
>been nice.

Even though everyone hates the "Enemy" storyline, it would serve as a
great answer to this. The events in "Beyond the Pale" and Dunklezahn's
"assassination" could serve as the answer. Instead of the completely
pretending nothing happened, you could decide that the bridge building
fiasco advanced the mana level 10 to 50 years. On a scale of 6000 every
"World" that isn't too much. Son the enemy would still be centuries
away, the mana changes happen, and the existing cannon history doesn't
have to be ignored.

Just a little idea.

"You came in that thing? You're braver than i thought."
Star Wars was funny on so many levels.


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Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 15:59:38 -0400
At 03:04 PM 8/16/98 EDT, David Blank wrote these timeless words:
>Astral interaction (I'll certainly shed no tears for the removal of
grounding)
>caused a lot of problems and FAB (Fat Bacteria) created even more headaches.
>As I said before Mike and eveyone else did an absolutley wonderful job on
>SR3. This is just kinda sudden.
>
>Just as one example, just how did Ares take care of the Bugs in Chicago?
I'll
>buy the change in the Mana level story, but it should be some sort of major
>earth shaking (at least on the magical front) event. Maybe MITS will cover
>more on this, but a little warning would have been nice.
>
Ummm...

This was handled and dealt with in Target: UCAS over a year ago... 'd
call that a little warning :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
chaos@*****.com ===== bull22@***********.com
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604

=======================================================
= =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
= =
=======================================================

"Can the Gummi Worms really live in peace with the Marshmallow Chicks?"
-- Pinky, "Pinky and the Brain"
Message no. 6
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:36:31 +0100
And verily, did David Blank hastily scribble thusly...
|Anyone know why this change has been made? It really changes the Sixth World.
|I can only hope that MITS will shed some light on it.

One of the biggest and most heated debates we had on this list (second only
to Grounding through quickenings [which I can now say safely, because you
can't ground anymore])

The idea worked like this. Living matter blocks astral movement, so what if
I line my bankvault with algae? What would happen if someone was trapped in
an ever shrinking room with walls of similar stuff, etc etc etc.

(The mage couldn't affect it, cos it wasn't astrally active, but it blocked
his movement, so he couldn't get out, which means he would've been totally
helpless...)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 7
From: David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:38:44 EDT
The point I was trying to make was that without FAB and Strain III how do you
explain how Ares took care of the Bug problem in Chicago. As far as I can see,
In SR3 FAB doesn't work at all. If FAB doesn't exist then there is no Strain
III.

That is just one example of how this is a major change to the 6th World that
has appeared with no warning.

On the other hand I really like Sustaining Foci as a replacement for Spell
Locks. I've been running the same campaign since when SR was first released. I
even have a Green Doc Wagon Card. SR3 is a major advance. Mike has done an
excellent job. Steve and the rest have also more than delivered. I had five
problems with the old SR2. The Skills and stats didn't provide enough
variation in characters. Combat between slow and fast characters was very
predictable and boring. No martial art system to speak of. Light vehicles were
made out of paper mache. Cyberlimbs were ridiculously expensive.

Other than the Martial Arts issue, every problem has been mostly resolved. SR3
is extremely well done.

I just wondering if other people like this change?

In a message dated 8/16/98 3:00:22 PM Central Daylight Time, chaos@*****.COM
writes:

> At 03:04 PM 8/16/98 EDT, David Blank wrote these timeless words:
> >Astral interaction (I'll certainly shed no tears for the removal of
> grounding)
> >caused a lot of problems and FAB (Fat Bacteria) created even more
headaches.
>
> >As I said before Mike and eveyone else did an absolutley wonderful job on
> >SR3. This is just kinda sudden.
> >
> >Just as one example, just how did Ares take care of the Bugs in Chicago?
> I'll
> >buy the change in the Mana level story, but it should be some sort of
major
> >earth shaking (at least on the magical front) event. Maybe MITS will cover
> >more on this, but a little warning would have been nice.
> >
> Ummm...
>
> This was handled and dealt with in Target: UCAS over a year ago... 'd
> call that a little warning :]
>
> Bull
> --
Message no. 8
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:02:26 -0400
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, David Blank wrote:

> The point I was trying to make was that without FAB and Strain III how do you
> explain how Ares took care of the Bug problem in Chicago. As far as I can see,
> In SR3 FAB doesn't work at all. If FAB doesn't exist then there is no Strain
> III.
>
I believe Mike and Steve said something to the effect of the level of
magic has now risen to the point where passing through live objects is now
possible where previously it wasn't. Basically the change wasn't
retroactive.
Message no. 9
From: David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:05:25 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/98 8:02:35 PM Central Daylight Time, dcurtis@***.NET
writes:

> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, David Blank wrote:
>
> > The point I was trying to make was that without FAB and Strain III how do
> you
> > explain how Ares took care of the Bug problem in Chicago. As far as I can
> see,
> > In SR3 FAB doesn't work at all. If FAB doesn't exist then there is no
> Strain
> > III.
> >
> I believe Mike and Steve said something to the effect of the level of
> magic has now risen to the point where passing through live objects is now
> possible where previously it wasn't. Basically the change wasn't
> retroactive.

I can buy that. I just hope that if that is the case, then the event will be
documented in MITS. This is something that would cause ripples all over the
6th World.
Message no. 10
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:49:58 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:02 PM 8/16/98 -0400, Drew wrote:
>I believe Mike and Steve said something to the effect of the level of
>magic has now risen to the point where passing through live objects
is now
>possible where previously it wasn't. Basically the change wasn't
>retroactive.

Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then too!

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:52:01 -0500
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 21:49:58 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 09:02 PM 8/16/98 -0400, Drew wrote:
>>I believe Mike and Steve said something to the effect of the level of
>>magic has now risen to the point where passing through live objects is
now
>>possible where previously it wasn't. Basically the change wasn't
>>retroactive.

>Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then too!

If they said that, they probably were trying to make some excuse for the
new system that doesn't muck up SR's previous history ... but ... if the
level of magic did rise, shouldn't there be some other manifestation of
this?

<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP More PGP>

Btw, what happened to your sig? I liked the Dexter's lab quote. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 12
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:23:08 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:52 PM 8/16/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>If they said that, they probably were trying to make some excuse for
the
>new system that doesn't muck up SR's previous history ... but ... if
the
>level of magic did rise, shouldn't there be some other manifestation
of
>this?

It's not a big enough manifestation by itself?

>Btw, what happened to your sig? I liked the Dexter's lab quote. :)

So did I, but someone complained about the length of my .sig so I
decided to trim it. Though if I get another vote for the Dexter Quote,
I might have to change it back.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 13
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:26:16 EDT
In a message dated 16/08/98 20:50:23 Central Daylight Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then too!

No. While living objects no longer block astral movement, the planet still
does.

Nexx
Message no. 14
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:58:09 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:26 PM 8/16/98 -0400, Nexx wrote:
>In a message dated 16/08/98 20:50:23 Central Daylight Time,
>RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:
>
>> Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then
too!
>
>No. While living objects no longer block astral movement, the planet
still
>does.

Oh, I see.

So do they still try to maintain that the Four Classical Elements
impede astral movement because they're magically "alive" or has that
theory now changed since living things don't block astral movement
anymore, but dense Earth still does?

Or is this just a case of "you can move through living things now, but
not if they're the size of a planet"? There would be a simple way to
test this, I would guess. You just have to get a small mass of dense
dirt, seperated from the ground, and find out if someone can move
through it astrally or not.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 15
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:01:56 -0500
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:23:08 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 09:52 PM 8/16/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>If they said that, they probably were trying to make some excuse for
the
>>new system that doesn't muck up SR's previous history ... but ... if
the
>>level of magic did rise, shouldn't there be some other manifestation of
>>this?

>It's not a big enough manifestation by itself?

It's not that it's not big enough but rather that it IS big and that it
should (IMO) be accompanied by changes elsewhere in magic ... Of course
this is really just me being nitpicky ;) Feel free to ignore at will :)

>>Btw, what happened to your sig? I liked the Dexter's lab quote. :)

>So did I, but someone complained about the length of my .sig so I
>decided to trim it. Though if I get another vote for the Dexter Quote,
>I might have to change it back.

<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP PGP>

Another vote. Oh, you meant from someone else ... You know, I've
actually only seen one episode of Dexter's Lab (Where he fired DeeDee and
hired a new sister and when it was his birthday and he turned himself
invisible to make sure he got the toy he wanted ...) ... Great show :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 16
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:07:28 -0500
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 23:58:09 -0400 Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:26 PM 8/16/98 -0400, Nexx wrote:
>>In a message dated 16/08/98 20:50:23 Central Daylight Time,
>>RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

>>> Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then too!

>>No. While living objects no longer block astral movement, the planet
still
>>does.

>Oh, I see.
>
>So do they still try to maintain that the Four Classical Elements
>impede astral movement because they're magically "alive" or has that
>theory now changed since living things don't block astral movement
>anymore, but dense Earth still does?
>
>Or is this just a case of "you can move through living things now, but
>not if they're the size of a planet"? There would be a simple way to
>test this, I would guess. You just have to get a small mass of dense
>dirt, seperated from the ground, and find out if someone can move
>through it astrally or not.
<SNIP PGP>
> -- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
<SNIP PGP>

I don't think that was a valid test before anyway ... I may be imagining
things but, I thought that once you somehow proccessed the earth (I dunno
if just digging up a chunk of it would count), it no longer blocked
astral travel ...

On the other hand, maybe FASA just doesn't want spirits to take shortcuts
to the other side of the planet? :) Hmmm ... I wonder if you could raise
spirits of the Fiery Firmament whilst astrally projecting through
magma/the earth's core (IF you could project through it, that is ...)?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:54:36 -0700
>The point I was trying to make was that without FAB and Strain III how do you
>explain how Ares took care of the Bug problem in Chicago. As far as I can
see,
>In SR3 FAB doesn't work at all. If FAB doesn't exist then there is no Strain
>III.
>

Untrue. It is never verified that Strain II has any actual relationship
to FAB. Nor are S3's non-astral properties ever nailed down- oficially, it is
PURELY astral and it is SUSPECTED to be related to FAB. The bit where Ares
pumps S3 around using drecky water as a "living conatainment field" wouldn't
work, but if that water was so gorss as to carry a background count (and I
always though it probably was), it would still work.

>That is just one example of how this is a major change to the 6th World that
>has appeared with no warning.

I don't view the RULES changes as "world" changes. The character
conversion guide lines don't say "now you have to sell you (worthless)
spellocks"- they say "now you heve sustaining foci of equal value".
Certainly, changes in how things occur would alter certain histories, but in
my mind it is absurd to assume the nature of magic itself has changed, and yet
characters automatically know a new set of techniques and have new gear.
Easier to assume that somehow, magic alwys worked (more or less) as it does in
SR3.
Its like saying reaction enhancement sudenly worked difrently in 2059,
becuase SR3 has new intitive and combat rules...


>On the other hand I really like Sustaining Foci as a replacement for Spell
>Locks. I've been running the same campaign since when SR was first released.
I
>even have a Green Doc Wagon Card. SR3 is a major advance. Mike has done an
>excellent job. Steve and the rest have also more than delivered. I had five
>problems with the old SR2. The Skills and stats didn't provide enough
>variation in characters. Combat between slow and fast characters was very
>predictable and boring. No martial art system to speak of. Light vehicles
were
>made out of paper mache. Cyberlimbs were ridiculously expensive.
>
>Other than the Martial Arts issue, every problem has been mostly resolved.
SR3
>is extremely well done.
>
>I just wondering if other people like this change?

Hell yes!
Message no. 18
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:55:24 -0700
> From: David Blank <XRacer8654@***.COM>

> Now that I've had a chance to read through the book, I see that they have
made
> a major change to Astral Space. Living Matter no longer blocks Astral
> Movement. SR3 had a couple examples of Astral mages moving through
people.
> That's one big change which I don't know if I'm going to use (which means
that
> I'm only going to be able to use about 99% of the rest of SR3 ;) ).
>
> Anyone know why this change has been made? It really changes the Sixth
World.
> I can only hope that MITS will shed some light on it.

Basically astral space was heavily modified to fix some game mechanics
problems. Mike and Steve felt that alot of the "advanced" magic was flawed
because it was never part of the foundation of magic in Shadowrun. To fix
the problems (ie: grounding, FATbac, ivy death traps etc.) the whole
foundation needed to be changed, so that's what they did. From what I was
able to glean moving through living objects is possible, but not without
setbacks. Nothing serious maybe a minor test in the case of earth, or a
person (I would look to MitS for most of this hopefully), and I think
magicians always know when an astral form passes through them IIRC. I
wouldn't expect any major dissertation on the change in astral space and
it's overall effect on the sixth world in MitS however. I think it's just
something to be taken in stride.

> Also any idea if initiation is going to go through any major changes in
MITS
> other then Meta-abilities will now be one per grade?

Someone has to teach the metamagical abilities...and like I have pointed
out before, grade zero is gone. Other than that we'll just have to wait in
anticipation.

> I have two high grade initiates in my group and don't want to have to
convert
> them twice.

Don't know what to tell you on this one...maybe stick with SR2 until MitS
comes out.

Caric
Message no. 19
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:28:18 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>Oh, I see.
>
>So do they still try to maintain that the Four Classical Elements
>impede astral movement because they're magically "alive" or has that
>theory now changed since living things don't block astral movement
>anymore, but dense Earth still does?

Only the Earth does and I believe magicians still ponder this
mystery. They have theories but no answers.

>Or is this just a case of "you can move through living things now, but
>not if they're the size of a planet"? There would be a simple way to
>test this, I would guess. You just have to get a small mass of dense
>dirt, separated from the ground, and find out if someone can move
>through it astrally or not.

Once it's removed from the Earth it loses that connection and
becomes passable. The Earth has not become the FAB of SR3.
On the logic behind the new level of astral intangibility and what
it really means, it is not addressed in SR3. MitS should cover that and
until it sees print it is all hearsay, even if Steve and Mike addressed
it during a seminar.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 20
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 01:40:59 -0500
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 00:54:36 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>>The point I was trying to make was that without FAB and Strain III how
do you
>>explain how Ares took care of the Bug problem in Chicago. As far as I
can
>>see,
>>In SR3 FAB doesn't work at all. If FAB doesn't exist then there is no
Strain
>>III.

> Untrue. It is never verified that Strain II has any actual
relationship
>to FAB. Nor are S3's non-astral properties ever nailed down- oficially,
it is
>PURELY astral and it is SUSPECTED to be related to FAB. The bit where
Ares
>pumps S3 around using drecky water as a "living conatainment field"
wouldn't
>work, but if that water was so gorss as to carry a background count (and
I
>always though it probably was), it would still work.

Actually, since astral forms can move through living matter *with some
dificulty* the scummy water could still, IMO, be used to direct the
Strain III. (btw, Strain III of what? :) It'd be kind of like an astral
shotgun. (with carniverous BB's ... pleasant thought, neh? :)

<SNIP>

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 21
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:13:51 -0700
>> Untrue. It is never verified that Strain II has any actual
>relationship
>>to FAB. Nor are S3's non-astral properties ever nailed down- oficially,
>it is
>>PURELY astral and it is SUSPECTED to be related to FAB. The bit where
>Ares
>>pumps S3 around using drecky water as a "living conatainment field"
>wouldn't
>>work, but if that water was so gorss as to carry a background count (and
>I
>>always though it probably was), it would still work.
>
>Actually, since astral forms can move through living matter *with some
>dificulty* the scummy water could still, IMO, be used to direct the
>Strain III. (btw, Strain III of what? :) It'd be kind of like an astral
>shotgun. (with carniverous BB's ... pleasant thought, neh? :)


Where does this "astral forms pas though living matter 'with some
difficulty'" thing come from? It seems to me that there is a test for living
beings to notice a astral form passing though them, but its not actually
difficult. Is there some test to try to pass through a living form in SR3
that I have not noticed?

Mongoose
Message no. 22
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:15:39 -0500
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:13:51 -0700 Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
<SNIP Stuff>
> Where does this "astral forms pas though living matter 'with some
>difficulty'" thing come from? It seems to me that there is a test for
living
>beings to notice a astral form passing though them, but its not actually
>difficult. Is there some test to try to pass through a living form in
SR3
>that I have not noticed?
>
>Mongoose

I don't have a copy of SR3 (yet) so I'm just going on what I've heard on
the list until then. I am sure I remember SOMEone saying that so it may
very well be wrong ... :/

D. Ghost (Who isn't as impatient as Erik J but still doesn't like waiting
:)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 23
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 02:55:03 -0700
Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then too!

You should be so lucky...nope.

Hi, Paul. How're you doing? :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 24
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:14:37 -0400
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:

->>> Cool! This means we can astrally project through the ground then
->too!
->>
->>No. While living objects no longer block astral movement, the planet
->still
->>does.
->
->So do they still try to maintain that the Four Classical Elements
->impede astral movement because they're magically "alive" or has that
->theory now changed since living things don't block astral movement
->anymore, but dense Earth still does?
->
->Or is this just a case of "you can move through living things now, but
->not if they're the size of a planet"? There would be a simple way to
->test this, I would guess. You just have to get a small mass of dense
->dirt, seperated from the ground, and find out if someone can move
->through it astrally or not.

Great, if Seattle was dirty before, it'll be even worse when
people realize the only way to be safe from astral intrusion is to cover
their houses in dirt. At least it'll be easier to spot hideouts ("Wonder
why that two story house is covered in sod.....?"). I hope FASA comes up
with a good explanation as to why you can't project through the earth.

Just a thought, Astral travel has been linked to the Biosphere
(Neo-A Guide to Real Life, I think). Since there is little life further
down in the dirt you go (I'm not talking a few feet, I'm talking hundreds
of feet, maybe thousands), Astral Space would be 'colder' there, just like
you were going into space and therefore the same risk of madness.
Just as a possibility in case you don't like the above reference:
Astral Space is not actually limited to the Biosphere as it was postulated
before, it's restricted to the proximity of intelligent thought. Just a
thought.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 25
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:15:54 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 9:06:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> Great, if Seattle was dirty before, it'll be even worse when
> people realize the only way to be safe from astral intrusion is to cover
> their houses in dirt. At least it'll be easier to spot hideouts ("Wonder
> why that two story house is covered in sod.....?"). I hope FASA comes up
> with a good explanation as to why you can't project through the earth.

It is not dirt that blocks astral movement, it is the Earth, since it has an
Astral Form.

Astral Forms still block movement, so if you had awakened plants, that would
block astral intruders.

-Bandit
Message no. 26
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:44:18 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:07 PM 8/16/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>Or is this just a case of "you can move through living things now,
but
>>not if they're the size of a planet"? There would be a simple way
to
>>test this, I would guess. You just have to get a small mass of dense
>>dirt, seperated from the ground, and find out if someone can move
>>through it astrally or not.

>I don't think that was a valid test before anyway ... I may be
imagining
>things but, I thought that once you somehow proccessed the earth (I
dunno
>if just digging up a chunk of it would count), it no longer blocked
>astral travel ...

I don't think just digging it up would count as processing it. After
all, just digging it up doesn't prevent you from from summoning an
Earth Elemental from a man-sized pile of dirt/clay.

The type of processing needed to render dirt into a "processed"
material includes treatment with chemical fertilizers/insecticides,
sterilization of the soil by any means, or any process that turns the
dirt into a different material (i.e.: mixing sand into a concrete mix,
or pressing clay into bricks.)

The part about chemical fertilzers/insectcides only applies to dirt
that is no longer in contact with the rest of the planet (flowerpots,
rooftop gardens, and so on.) If it's still in the Earth, then
magicaly, it can still count as Earth. Once you seperate it from the
earth though, if you do anything to the dirt that say an "Organic"
Gardener wouldn't do, then it falls under the category "processed".

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 27
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:44:13 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:15 AM 8/17/98 -0400, Bandit wrote:
>> Great, if Seattle was dirty before, it'll be even worse
when
>> people realize the only way to be safe from astral intrusion is to
cover
>> their houses in dirt. At least it'll be easier to spot hideouts
("Wonder
>> why that two story house is covered in sod.....?"). I hope FASA
comes up
>> with a good explanation as to why you can't project through the
earth.
>
>It is not dirt that blocks astral movement, it is the Earth, since it
has an
>Astral Form.
>
>Astral Forms still block movement, so if you had awakened plants,
that would
>block astral intruders.

But doesn't that leave a gaping wide hole for FAB to be re-introduced?

Oh, wait, I just got Kenson's email, and it seems FAB never left.
::evil grin::
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 28
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:16:00 EST
> >So do they still try to maintain that the Four Classical Elements
> >impede astral movement because they're magically "alive" or has that
> >theory now changed since living things don't block astral movement
> >anymore, but dense Earth still does?
>
> Only the Earth does and I believe magicians still ponder this
> mystery. They have theories but no answers.

You can pass through living things, but not through astrally active
bodies. (Thus FAB could still be created, if it was astrally
active). Therefore you can pass through Joe Schmoe, but not Astrally
Perceiving Joe Schmoe.

Therefore, the whole earth thing is easily explained as saying the
earth has an astral presence.

(Of course, they didn't say that, because then some munchie would
want to know the stats, and Poof! One manaball later from a 50th
grade initiated shapechanger rigger-vampire-mage, and the earth is
dead.)

-=SwiftOne=-
"Opps!"
Message no. 29
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:54:54 -0400
Once upon a time, Mongoose wrote;

> Where does this "astral forms pas though living matter 'with some
>difficulty'" thing come from? It seems to me that there is a test for living
>beings to notice a astral form passing though them, but its not actually
>difficult. Is there some test to try to pass through a living form in SR3
>that I have not noticed?

There was Kenson's original ponderings posted to the list last
year/early this year. I don't think I've heard it mentioned since then.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 30
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:57:12 -0400
Once upon a time, M. Sean Martinez wrote;

>Astral Forms still block movement, so if you had awakened plants, that would
>block astral intruders.

It would have to be just a little more than awakened but yes such a plant
would work.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 31
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:01:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 12:58:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> It would have to be just a little more than awakened but yes such a plant
> would work.

Opps, sorry! I ment a dual natured plant.

<Shudders at the thought of astrally active Kudzu>
Message no. 32
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:13:58 -0400
Once upon a time, M. Sean Martinez wrote;

>Opps, sorry! I ment a dual natured plant.
>
><Shudders at the thought of astrally active Kudzu>

Got 'em! <Bryan, Lehlan you will forget I ever said that!>
B8>|# <using hypnoglare>

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><=
><>

"THAT¹S NOT FAIR!"
"You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
-Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth

I am MC23
Message no. 33
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:20:31 -0400
<SNIP>
><Shudders at the thought of astrally active Kudzu>
>Got 'em! <Bryan, Lehlan you will forget I ever said that!>
>B8>|# <using hypnoglare>

What did you say something?! :)
Must be that chaos spell distracting me again. Heh...
I have an image of the plant from Little Shop of Horrors....
(As long as it doesn't sing, we will let you live)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 331-1159
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 34
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:48:23 EDT
In a message dated 98-08-17 09:06:44 EDT, you write:

> Just as a possibility in case you don't like the above reference:
> Astral Space is not actually limited to the Biosphere as it was postulated
> before, it's restricted to the proximity of intelligent thought. Just a
> thought.

That can't be true. Its been proven (in SR) that astral projection is
possible on Earth, and gods know there isn't enough intelligent life on this
planet to power a television, much less a paralell universe.

Nexx, knee deep in stupid people and caught without his hip waders
Message no. 35
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:33:22 -0700
David Foster wrote:

> Great, if Seattle was dirty before, it'll be even worse when
> people realize the only way to be safe from astral intrusion is to
> cover their houses in dirt. At least it'll be easier to spot hideouts
> "Wonder why that two story house is covered in sod.....?"). I hope
> FASA comes up with a good explanation as to why you can't project
> through the earth.

Unmolested, unworked earth. Burying your hideout won't work. Putting it
underground will.

If you ward the entrances.

<snip Biosphere thought>

Good idea.

=
--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 36
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:25:41 +0100
And verily, did MC23 hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Once upon a time, M. Sean Martinez wrote;
|
|>Astral Forms still block movement, so if you had awakened plants, that would
|>block astral intruders.
|
|It would have to be just a little more than awakened but yes such a plant
|would work.

However, it would be combatable, unlike the old FAB problem.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 37
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:29:06 -0700
>Unmolested, unworked earth. Burying your hideout won't work. Putting it
>underground will.
>
>If you ward the entrances.


If your gonna depend on wards, then depend on the wards. After all, you
ward a VOLUME, not a single entrance. Now, I'm sure some joker will figure
out you can ward a 1 cm thick volume covering each entrance, with "pipes"
connecting them, or even smack up a multi square k mm thick ward in the middle
of astral airspace, since wards only have a restriction of max VOLUME, so I'm
gonna ask Steve now; why the FRAG didn't you make the max size of a ward a
certain max Surface area, and what sort of blunt object should I use to
traumatize the first person to try my above (dumb) idea in a game? I mean, a
"flat sheet" ward would be a groovy way (for the GM) to protect the entire
surface of an archology, but that just seems SO wrong. What are the
acceptable "shapes" for a ward?

On a more serious note (not that the above isn't potentially serious, as
you see from my Arco protection scheme) does the warder have to be able to
reach the "surface" of the ward to create it (IE, you must get a stepstool if
you want your ward to reach your ceiling)? Also, can an Astrally projecting
mage erect a ward, given enough time (he'd have better reach, and might need
the protection)?

Mongoose
Message no. 38
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:43:14 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 5:26:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> If your gonna depend on wards, then depend on the wards. After all, you
> ward a VOLUME, not a single entrance. Now, I'm sure some joker will figure
> out you can ward a 1 cm thick volume covering each entrance, with "pipes"
> connecting them, or even smack up a multi square k mm thick ward in the
> middle
> of astral airspace, since wards only have a restriction of max VOLUME, so
I'
> m
> gonna ask Steve now; why the FRAG didn't you make the max size of a ward a
> certain max Surface area, and what sort of blunt object should I use to
> traumatize the first person to try my above (dumb) idea in a game? I mean,
> a
> "flat sheet" ward would be a groovy way (for the GM) to protect the entire
> surface of an archology, but that just seems SO wrong. What are the
> acceptable "shapes" for a ward?

Umm, this is a nasty possibility that a munchkin might come up with. Since
wards can now be put onto something and then be moved / carried around. And
since the maximum area a ward can cover is (Magic Attribute x 50) in square
centimeters, this lends all sorts of options.

And the option ... apply wards onto things like swords, baseball bats, and
other melee weapons, as long as it does not cover the handle grip at all. The
person swinging the melee weapon would do two types of damage. The first
being the one for the weapon type in question (though the ward does act as
armor for the person being struck). But, at the same time, the ward will
strike out at the opponent since to the wards pov, the person tried to get
through the ward and did not succeed at all.

I am\\have just realized this potential, and am beginning to wonder about a
possible explanation (besides my trademarked -NO- response), so that way the
guys understand my hesitancy. Though I am leaning towards the following : if
the group begins to use them, then their opposition will begin to use them
against them also.

I do, however, have a possible limitation on doing something like this though
... these types of wards are one-shot only ...

> On a more serious note (not that the above isn't potentially serious,
as
> you see from my Arco protection scheme) does the warder have to be able to
> reach the "surface" of the ward to create it (IE, you must get a stepstool
> if
> you want your ward to reach your ceiling)? Also, can an Astrally
projecting
> mage erect a ward, given enough time (he'd have better reach, and might
need
> the protection)?

Yes, a projecting mage can set up a ward while in the astral, and it can
affect the real world ... see pp.174 of BABY ...

My god ... wards are truly wicked in SR3 ... I finally read the -ENTIRE-
section on it ...

And from an inkling of something written in that section, I believe I have a
fair idea as to exactly what ritual magic is going to be like for SR3.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 39
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 04:46:04 -0700
>Umm, this is a nasty possibility that a munchkin might come up with. Since
>wards can now be put onto something and then be moved / carried around. And
>since the maximum area a ward can cover is (Magic Attribute x 50) in square
>centimeters, this lends all sorts of options.

No. It does say that they have to be applied to objects. It also
says they CAN'T be moved, and have a max VOLUME of 50 cubic meters x magic.

>Yes, a projecting mage can set up a ward while in the astral, and it can
>affect the real world ... see pp..174 of BABY ...
>

"Affect the real world?" Wards only EVER affect astral space, affair. But
yes, on reflection and reading, I suppose a projecting character is capable of
astral perception, and
does have a magic rating, which is all that is required for warding except
time- except that "application to a physical surface" thing. An astral person
can't do that, and I think warding might even involve drawing some glyphs and
such (physically).

>My god ... wards are truly wicked in SR3 ... I finally read the -ENTIRE-
>section on it ...

Yes, they can be mighty effective. Even casting spells to kill them,
which seems good at first, probably won't work; the creating mage is likely
not
busy, and can give it his ENTIRE defense. The tough part is just rolling
those high TN's for big wards, which isn't to hard with 12 or so dice.

Mongoose
Message no. 40
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:21 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/98 6:39:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> >Umm, this is a nasty possibility that a munchkin might come up with. Since
> >wards can now be put onto something and then be moved / carried around.
> And
> >since the maximum area a ward can cover is (Magic Attribute x 50) in
square
> >centimeters, this lends all sorts of options.
>
> No. It does say that they have to be applied to objects. It also
> says they CAN'T be moved, and have a max VOLUME of 50 cubic meters x magic.

Umm, actually it says in the BABY (pp. 174), that the ward can not be moved
from it's "physical component" (this is the thing it has been put onto) to
another location.

What this means to me is that a ward can be put onto an object. The object
can then be transported or moved ... like a vehicle ... and the ward stays
with the object.

> >Yes, a projecting mage can set up a ward while in the astral, and it can
> >affect the real world ... see pp..174 of BABY ...
> >
>
> "Affect the real world?" Wards only EVER affect astral space, affair.
But
> yes, on reflection and reading, I suppose a projecting character is capable
> of
> astral perception, and
> does have a magic rating, which is all that is required for warding except
> time- except that "application to a physical surface" thing. An astral
> person
> can't do that, and I think warding might even involve drawing some glyphs
> and
> such (physically).

Hmm, after re-reading the section on Wards, I am wrong that a mage can create
a ward on the astral plane, as it has to be put onto something non-living.

A -NOTE- wards do not cost anything in terms of materials anymore ... the
glyphs and crud you are talking about probably are only needed when putting
together ritual and hermetic circles.

> >My god ... wards are truly wicked in SR3 ... I finally read the -ENTIRE-
> >section on it ...
>
> Yes, they can be mighty effective. Even casting spells to kill them,
> which seems good at first, probably won't work; the creating mage is likely
> not
> busy, and can give it his ENTIRE defense. The tough part is just rolling
> those high TN's for big wards, which isn't to hard with 12 or so dice.

Hmmm, could a mage inside a ward provide Spell Defense for the ward?

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 41
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:31:58 -0300
Brett Borger wrote:\
>
> (Of course, they didn't say that, because then some munchie would
> want to know the stats, and Poof! One manaball later from a 50th
> grade initiated shapechanger rigger-vampire-mage, and the earth is
> dead.)


Gaia would be an Ultimate character... :).

If the munchie tries a Manabolt, or something similar, have the
Earth
just shrug the thing off, and them strike back with an attack that kills
him with no need for dice :) .

Bira
Message no. 42
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:02:22 -0300
David Foster wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:
>
> Just a thought, Astral travel has been linked to the Biosphere
> (Neo-A Guide to Real Life, I think). Since there is little life further
> down in the dirt you go (I'm not talking a few feet, I'm talking hundreds
> of feet, maybe thousands), Astral Space would be 'colder' there, just like
> you were going into space and therefore the same risk of madness.

Hey, the Earth is Gaia, man :) . The Grimy, I think says "Gaiasphere"
goes
up to 80km above the ground, and I'd rule that, because of all the life
in it,
the planet itself is alive.

Bira
Message no. 43
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:23:02 +0100
And verily, did Ubiratan P. Alberton hastily scribble thusly...
| Gaia would be an Ultimate character... :).
|
| If the munchie tries a Manabolt, or something similar, have the
|Earth
|just shrug the thing off, and them strike back with an attack that kills
|him with no need for dice :) .

I was thinking of something similar. Attack the source of magic, and have
magic lash out. What I had in mind has a foundation in magical mythology
though.

The rule of 3. (The attacker suffers the effect 3 fold. So either 3
instantaneous blasts of equal power that he must resist, or, an attack at 3x
the force.

(And of course, as the earth is the source of the magic, it can suffer no
damage from magic itself...)

:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 44
From: "RazorGirl ." <chumlikin@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 05:23:27 PDT
About being able to attack gaia:

If Shadowrun has this belief that you have a point of body for every
20kg of mass (or something like that, i don't have my BBB here) what
would a planet have?

Anyways, wouldn't the living part of Gaia be behind a Barrier of living
earth AKA the surface of the earth?

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Message no. 45
From: Gabriel Birke <GorbiMail@********.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:44:28 +0200
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: RazorGirl . <chumlikin@*******.COM>
An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Datum: Mittwoch, 19. August 1998 14:24
Betreff: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living


>About being able to attack gaia:
>
>If Shadowrun has this belief that you have a point of body for every
>20kg of mass (or something like that, i don't have my BBB here) what
>would a planet have?

Assuming a mass of 5.973*10e27 (encyclopedia) the earth would have a body
attribute of 5.9865*10e26. Very unlikely to hit her with a Panther round,
eh?
And any resistance test of gaia will take very long: assuming you throw 20
dice at once and need 15 seconds for counting the successes - It will take
much more than a hundred thousand million MILLENIUMS to throw all the dice.
Is anybody here who is good in probability math?
Only he/she could calculate how unlikely it is that gaia will fail even some
nuclear bombs. (I don't know exactly how many it takes to blow the earth
apart but I think quite a few).


>Anyways, wouldn't the living part of Gaia be behind a Barrier of living
>earth AKA the surface of the earth?

Natureboy the shaman says: "Hell, Gaia IS the living earth. And the trees
and the animals. All live is part of Gaia. Do you really think Gaia is a
person someone can SHOOT? If you want to kill her, go on with that pollution
stuff and wait 10 years."
Message no. 46
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:18:53 -0700
>> No. It does say that they have to be applied to objects. It also
>> says they CAN'T be moved, and have a max VOLUME of 50 cubic meters x
magic.
>
>Umm, actually it says in the BABY (pp.. 174), that the ward can not be moved
>from it's "physical component" (this is the thing it has been put onto) to
>another location.

Ah, I see. I misread that.

>> Yes, they can be mighty effective. Even casting spells to kill them,
>> which seems good at first, probably won't work; the creating mage is
likely
>> not
>> busy, and can give it his ENTIRE defense. The tough part is just rolling
>> those high TN's for big wards, which isn't to hard with 12 or so dice.
>
>Hmmm, could a mage inside a ward provide Spell Defense for the ward?


It says he can provide spell defense "regardless of location" (I suppose
because normal spell defense is limited in range). I'd say that easily
creates
enough leeway for you to be inside the ward- hell, you have LOS, right? And
, the ward doesn't affect its creator or his magic use at all- he can
cast right through it at no penalty. HMM, spell defense, and the TN penalty
for casting through a ward- sounds familiar!

Another "tough" astral presence I just noticed is Foci and wards made
permanent with karma- they have their own karma pools! Combine that with
spell defense, and... Zowie, I'd be much more willing to use foci now!

Mongoose
Message no. 47
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Major change in Astral Space (passing though living
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:53:48 -0300
RazorGirl . wrote:
>
> About being able to attack gaia:
>
> If Shadowrun has this belief that you have a point of body for every
> 20kg of mass (or something like that, i don't have my BBB here) what
> would a planet have?
>
> Anyways, wouldn't the living part of Gaia be behind a Barrier of living
> earth AKA the surface of the earth?


All the planet is Gaia... It doesn't need a body rating, and all
living things
are part of it in some way.

Bira

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