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Message no. 1
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 02:46:30 -0500
I would love for SR3 to address the Physad problem...
It seems (to me anyways) that almost every ability a physad can get using
his magic, the chromed to the hilt cyber-sammauri can get cheaper.

Compared to all the cyber/bio reflex enhancers, the increased reflexes
ability is much too expensive... Killing hands is nice, but then, the sammie
with hand razors, swords, etc is capable of matching this. Increased
reaction and improved attributes are rediculously overpriced for physads...
improved senses are nice, but again, the cyber-sammie can get most of these
too.... Improved ability can be quite useful, but only in large
amounts...Astral perception is one of the few advantages available to a
physad that isnt available to sammies. An extremely useful advantage too...
Some abilities in the Grimoire and Awakenings are rather interesting, but I
really dont think it makes up for the power edge available to sammies and
full magic users...

And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
whole physad point!

Anyone else have any imput/suggestions?
Thanks for letting me rave

John Dukes
aka: TheGrinch
Message no. 2
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 04:01:14 -0500
You wrote:
> I would love for SR3 to address the Physad problem...
> It seems (to me anyways) that almost every ability a physad can get using
> his magic, the chromed to the hilt cyber-sammauri can get cheaper.
Personally, I kinda dislike physads nowadays... At first, in Grim1, I loved
'em, a neat new type of character for folks to play. But in recent years, I've
realized why I don't care for them, and have never played one: they were made
to be sammies without the big drawback of a sammie, namely Essence loss. My
groups have always taken Essence losses for char's rather seriously, prtraying
people with low Essence as less sane, more paranoid, and less humane and human
than everyone else. This is only hinted at in the rules, but it was our take
on things, and I liked it, it fit SR's gritty feel for me. Then along come
physads and, especially in 2st ed, they were the magical replacement for
sammies. It blurred the line between mages and other types of characters.
Physads didn't have the drain problems of mages, or the Essence-loss problems
of sammies... Not that I'm going to sit and advocate that PAs be dumped fromt
he rules, too many would mourn them now, but they could be more distinct from
sams.

> Compared to all the cyber/bio reflex enhancers, the increased reflexes
> ability is much too expensive... Killing hands is nice, but then, the sammie
> with hand razors, swords, etc is capable of matching this. Increased
> reaction and improved attributes are rediculously overpriced for physads...
> improved senses are nice, but again, the cyber-sammie can get most of these
> too.... Improved ability can be quite useful, but only in large
> amounts...Astral perception is one of the few advantages available to a
> physad that isnt available to sammies. An extremely useful advantage too...
> Some abilities in the Grimoire and Awakenings are rather interesting, but I
> really dont think it makes up for the power edge available to sammies and
> full magic users...
This was ovverraction from their 1st Ed abilites, which were too good for the
price. Things swung the other way in 2nd Ed.

> And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
> spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
> another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
> whole physad point!
This is a good candidate for revision in 2nd Ed.: Physad power purchasing,
perhaps not linking it to Magic Attribute so much. Perhaps letting that
attribute be a limit on how *high* a physad's powers can be bought, let them
purchase with experience or the like...


losthalo
Message no. 3
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:22:37 -1000
>Things swing the other way in SR2
What? I find the PA a rather fun character, provided he isn't used for
combat. It's really difficult to get anywhere near what a sam can.
What powers do you consider overpriced?
Message no. 4
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:35:57 -0500
>Personally, I kinda dislike physads nowadays... At first, in Grim1, I loved
>'em, a neat new type of character for folks to play. But in recent years, I've
>realized why I don't care for them, and have never played one: they were made
>to be sammies without the big drawback of a sammie, namely Essence loss. My
>groups have always taken Essence losses for char's rather seriously, prtraying
>people with low Essence as less sane, more paranoid, and less humane and human
>than everyone else. This is only hinted at in the rules, but it was our take
>on things, and I liked it, it fit SR's gritty feel for me. Then along come
>physads and, especially in 2st ed, they were the magical replacement for
>sammies. It blurred the line between mages and other types of characters.
>Physads didn't have the drain problems of mages, or the Essence-loss problems
>of sammies... Not that I'm going to sit and advocate that PAs be dumped fromt
>he rules, too many would mourn them now, but they could be more distinct from
>sams.
>

I really find cyberware/bioware distasteful... I very rarely play a cybered
character.

I wish the system had magic based as a learnable skill... like anyone has
the natural talent to use magic, however the years of training required to
harness the ability is beyond the willpower of most people... like say any
mundane given enough years of study could learn magic... I dont like the
idea of magic being based entirely on genetics...

>This is a good candidate for revision in 2nd Ed.: Physad power purchasing,
>perhaps not linking it to Magic Attribute so much. Perhaps letting that
>attribute be a limit on how *high* a physad's powers can be bought, let them
>purchase with experience or the like...
>
>
>losthalo
>

I guess a Physad has an advantage in that it is possible to break the 6
magic points through initiation, whereas a sammie cant really break his 6
essence without taking some highly risky procedures like cybermancy... The
thought of a physad initiate of like grade 14 gives me the shudders... he
could have deadly hands D and distance strike... could hit you for
(strength)D from 20 meters away, and would probably have 4d6 for
initiative... yuck...
Message no. 5
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 03:43:27 -0500
At 10:22 PM 7/3/97 -1000, you wrote:
>>Things swing the other way in SR2
>What? I find the PA a rather fun character, provided he isn't used for
>combat. It's really difficult to get anywhere near what a sam can.
>What powers do you consider overpriced?
>

A physad spends 6 magic points for +3d6 while a sammie spends 5 essence for
+3d6 and gets +6 reaction as well (using wired refelxes). A sammie can fit
more combat-monster stuff into his essence than a physad can into his magic
points...

And whats the deal with Suspended State? 1 pt for an ability I've never
seen anyone actually take...
Message no. 6
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:47:45 -1000
>A PhysAd can get....
What I was referring to was everything a physad can take that isn't
directly combat oriented. I've particularly enjoyed the stealth and
athletics.
>What's up with suspended state?
I have no idea. That one may have to go back.
Message no. 7
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:15:24 +0200
>And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
>spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
>another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
>whole physad point!
>
>>>>>>>Agreed. I solved this by cutting the costs of Physad powers in
half
after character generation.<<<<<<<


>
>>>>>>BRUCE
"Dont hit me, I just drive the car!"
-Sharkboy, our Rigger to peeved razorgal<<<<<<<
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:59:03 -0500
Okay, time for my take on physads...

Now as we all know, physads must use B magic (C for metahumans unless you
use some optional thing). What they get for B magic should be roughly
equivalent to what other adepts get for B magic.

They should not be the equal of an A resources samurai, because the samurai
put a higher priority into his defining feature. They already get many
powers not available to samurai and sometimes they're cheaper. Sometimes,
however, they are more expensive...

Even if they are more expensive, they aren't illegal and they aren't
detectable (increased reflexes as compared to wired reflexes appears to be
the favorite topic). And at level one, increased reflexes is half as costly
as having wired reflexes one installed. At level two, it is just slightly
more expensive (1 point of magic more) and it remains just that slight bit
higher at level three.

Frankly, having the legal, undetectable, unremovable (organ-/cyber- leggers
know what I mean) speed enhancer is always preferable to having the speed
enhancer that could get me thrown in jail in most countries, can be detected
by even mediocre cyberware detectors, and is worth a lot of money to someone
if they rip it out of my body.

They also don't have to mess with the SOTA on their physad abilities, which
samurai might find themselves facing if those rules are used...

As physads are now, they're perfect. There is a lot of opposition on this
point due to the fact that they were severely imbalancing to the game in 1st
edition Shadowrun and many people are used to playing them as easy/cheap to
make demigods. When you sit down and really look at what they pay to become
physads and what they can get for that rather small amount, they still
appear to get more "bang for their magical buck" than sorcery adepts,
conjuring adepts, elemental adepts, and certainly astral adepts. I'm more
than willing to overlook this slight imbalance in favor of playability which
the current physad rules supply.

Also, nothing stops a physad from using cyberware if they really want to
have the exact same thing as the samurai's have. Take wired reflexes two if
you really want to save that one magic point, but remember how much it was
really worth when you're running from cyber-leggers or trying to stealth
past a cyberware scanner.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:46:21 +0100
|I wish the system had magic based as a learnable skill... like anyone has
|the natural talent to use magic, however the years of training required to
|harness the ability is beyond the willpower of most people... like say any
|mundane given enough years of study could learn magic... I dont like the
|idea of magic being based entirely on genetics...

The magic level isn't high enough yet in shadowrun.
In Earthdawn however, that's exactly how it is.

ATM though, only people born with the talent can access it.

Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE special
ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???

Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or astral
sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).

That'd make a nice evolution in the game.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:04:08 -0500
You wrote:
> Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE special
> ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???

> Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
> He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or astral
> sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).

You could even do a GURPS-style chargen wherein everything you get you pay some
points for, and you just decide how much to invest in Attributes, Skills,
Resources, Magical Aptitude, etc. I haven't read the Companion, but it seemst
o lean in this direction, shouldn't be impossible (though it'd take some
numbers crunching to get it balanced) to do this.

losthalo
Message no. 11
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 16:19:24 -0500
At 09:46 PM 7/4/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE special
>ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???
>Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
>He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or astral
>sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).
>That'd make a nice evolution in the game.....

Check out the Shadowrun Companion Edges & Flaws section (pg. 33). You can
pick up an Edge which will allow you very limited magical ability. My only
suggestion here would be watch the player who takes this carefully, it's
easy to powergame (why spend 2 magic points for astral perception as a
physad when you can spend 3 Edge points?).
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 12
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:42:22 +0100
|Check out the Shadowrun Companion Edges & Flaws section (pg. 33). You can
|pick up an Edge which will allow you very limited magical ability. My only
|suggestion here would be watch the player who takes this carefully, it's
|easy to powergame (why spend 2 magic points for astral perception as a
|physad when you can spend 3 Edge points?).

That's why I suggested it as an option for setting magic one further level
below adepts.

It allows one ability, but if you're a physad, you can't have both.
The bloke is just a normal, VERY slightly magical guy.
(Think X-Files and all the wierdos they have on that Like the bloke who can
control lightning, or the telekinetics/telepathics/etc).

He could be a rigger or decker, or even a merc or sam (as long as he didn't
screw his essence up too much).....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:10:06 -1000
>As physads are now, they're perfect.
Someone who agrees! Thanks TopCat!
Message no. 14
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:51:02 -1000
>initiation is a collosal rip-off for physads.
We nixed zero grade for physads.
Message no. 15
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:06:26 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:
> Okay, time for my take on physads...
> Now as we all know, physads must use B magic (C for metahumans unless you
> use some optional thing). What they get for B magic should be roughly
> equivalent to what other adepts get for B magic.

Exactly. Other adepts cast killer spells or conjure nasty spirits
while taking some cyberware (that doesn't really degrade their
performance) to match up with sammies in the fighting section. PhysAds
lose power for everything they get - so Cyberware/Bioware is not the
way to go to make them stand up against others.

And another thing you should keep in mind: I don't think the priority
was meant to provide some "I put priority A on superhero"
mechanism... it was more an idea to create a lot of different
characters with EQUAL power !

> They should not be the equal of an A resources samurai, because the samurai
> put a higher priority into his defining feature. They already get many
> powers not available to samurai and sometimes they're cheaper. Sometimes,
> however, they are more expensive...

Usually they are more expensive (I didn't dare to say always because
there might be an exeption I cannot think of at the moment) and there
is just a handful that cannot be simulated by some cyber stuff.

Uhm. You are partially right, but there is one major thing you do not
pay attention to: While Sammies have a split up preference between
Karma and NuYen the PhysAdsa just need Karma. Sammies can always do a
run for some company that builds wiz Cyberware and get one of their
products in reward. There is nothing comparable to this for a PhysAd.

PhysAds start extremely weak in comparison to a Sammy (even weaker
than mages), but while Sammies gain power pretty fast (they feed on
two sources) and are pretty soon being overtaken by mages (getting new
spells is relatively cheap and this can give you a lot of power) a
PhysAd solely relies on the two most Karma eating process known in the
SR universe: *Initiation and Skills* plus there is no way of getting
bonuses on these for special runs like Sammies do.

Another pretty bad thing is: Most PhysAds are warrior types - this
means they stand right where the Sammies do. This means they will get
injured - and one day they will receive deadly injuries. While Sammies
just replace a broken part a PhysAd loses magic rating (that he can
not fill up with Cyber without further magic loss) and is crippled for
his life. PhysAds have less power but much more to lose than Sammies.

In general I really love PhysAds because they have style - but at the
moment you got to pay a big price for this style... making powers
cheaper or maybe thinking about other ways of improving their
potential would be a good idea, afaik.

Later,
Georg

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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Message no. 16
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:11:30 -0400
I play up the stealth-undetectable aspects of PhysAds in my game. I
have considered though giving the iniatition cost a .5 multipler
reduction for physical adepts only. I haven't quite given over completely
to it though. I would say this is all they would need.
Also don't forget that PhyAds can get magically healed easier than
their Sammie buddy lying next to him. I've seen that happen in plenty a
game, Serious to Light with just "a wave of the hand".


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 17
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:38:20 +0100
In message <1.5.4.16.19970704033947.61e79f24@********.linknet.net>, John
Dukes <dukes@*******.NET> writes
>At 10:22 PM 7/3/97 -1000, you wrote:
>>>Things swing the other way in SR2
>>What? I find the PA a rather fun character, provided he isn't used for
>>combat. It's really difficult to get anywhere near what a sam can.
>>What powers do you consider overpriced?
>>
>
>A physad spends 6 magic points for +3d6 while a sammie spends 5 essence for
>+3d6 and gets +6 reaction as well (using wired refelxes).

Now walk through the scanners at a major international airport. The
physad wears a secret smile. The samurai wonders why the security
console sounds like it's a Vegas slot machine hitting the jackpot, and
where all those armed guards came from so fast...

>A sammie can fit
>more combat-monster stuff into his essence than a physad can into his magic
>points...

Yup. But the physad is a lot more stealthy and subtle. They aren't meant
to be the same characters, they have very different abilities.

You want an extra 6+3d6 reaction? Get Wired Reflexes III, and you've
still got a magic point's worth of physad abilities.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 18
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:02:57 EDT
On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:46:21 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|I wish the system had magic based as a learnable skill... like anyone
has
>|the natural talent to use magic, however the years of training required
to
>|harness the ability is beyond the willpower of most people... like say
any
>|mundane given enough years of study could learn magic... I dont like
the
>|idea of magic being based entirely on genetics...
>
>The magic level isn't high enough yet in shadowrun.
>In Earthdawn however, that's exactly how it is.
>
>ATM though, only people born with the talent can access it.
>
>Hmmm... How about introducing Level 3 mages? (i.e. people with ONE
special
>ability and nothing else magical, to reflect on the increase in Magic???
>
>Say, like, a human chooses magic at 3, and can choose ONE ability.
>He could choose, say, one spell (but not get sorcery or pool), or
astral
>sight, or telekinesis, or whatever he wanted).
>
>That'd make a nice evolution in the game.....

Could be interesting... wait, doesn't that sound a bit like the "magical
edges" in the companion?
(I don't own, nor have I read the companion, but I've heard enough about
it from this list...)

You *could* also do it by letting the character have magic at C (or what
ever corresponding point value that would be), with the restriction that
they can get NONE of the skills at char-gen, nor do they get ANY force
points.... which consequently means that they get no pools or spells at
all, these must be learned "from the ground up" as it were.

I don't know what you'd do about Astral Perception or Projection
though...

~Tim
Message no. 19
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:11:35 -0500
At 03:11 PM 7/5/97 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>I play up the stealth-undetectable aspects of PhysAds in my game. I
>have considered though giving the iniatition cost a .5 multipler
>reduction for physical adepts only. I haven't quite given over completely
>to it though. I would say this is all they would need.

I also, utilize the great potential for stealth that physads have access to.
Since stealth is cheap to raise by Magic (.25 magic/level) and it has no
limit (most skill enhancements are limited to your base "natural" skill
level), it can be raised to obscene levels cheaply. Athletics, I believe,
also functions this way. Throw in abilities like *natural* heightened
senses (much better than the cybered equivalents), and traceless walk and
you've got yourself one vicious infiltration expert with great perceptive
skills, speed like a track star, climbing ability like a spider monkey, and
can use it all with unparalleled stealth...

I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would produce
monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of initiation.

>Also don't forget that PhyAds can get magically healed easier than
>their Sammie buddy lying next to him. I've seen that happen in plenty a
>game, Serious to Light with just "a wave of the hand".

Physads have a lot of benefits (most of which were already mentioned by
myself and others in this thread) that some physad players take for granted.
The only problem appears to be satisfying those who remember playing the
unstoppable demigods that physads were in 1st edition. Just remember one
thing... B priority, it all makes a lot more sense when you look at it from
a priority standpoint. They're fine as they are and they're still superior
to the rest of the adepts...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 20
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 04:55:31 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-05 22:13:11 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:

>
> I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would
produce
> monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
> characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
> someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of initiation.
>
>
I would have to agree with TopCat here. Other options would be to perhaps
give the player-character the chance to meet some nice Free Spirit with
Astral Gateway. Could help him initiate a bit sooner if need be. Sure, the
karma to the spirit is a bit expensive, but it might help.
-Keith
Message no. 21
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 06:03:55 -0400
> From: J. Keith Henry <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 4:55 AM

> In a message dated 97-07-05 22:13:11 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:

> > I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would
> produce
> > monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
> > characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
> > someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of
initiation.

> I would have to agree with TopCat here. Other options would be to
perhaps
> give the player-character the chance to meet some nice Free Spirit with
> Astral Gateway. Could help him initiate a bit sooner if need be. Sure,
the
> karma to the spirit is a bit expensive, but it might help.

As a house rule, I allow PAs to gain access to 1.25 points in powers for
every 1 point of Magic Rating they "spend" on powers. However, they can
only use a total amount of powers equal to their Magic Rating at once.
Basically, this allows them to change the powers they have access to
slightly whenever they like, without giving them any more power. The
process for altering their powers takes a few hours and basically requires
undisturbed meditation.

This give the PA more flexibility, but not more power at any given time.

I already use a take on the gradual initiation rules. I allow anyone who
is initiating 2 Metamagical abilities per initiate grade. Also, in my
campaign, there is no Grade 0. Thus, when you first initiate, you are a
grade 1 initiate.

> -Keith

Justin :)
Message no. 22
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 07:12:19 -0400
J. Keith Henry once dared to write,

>I would have to agree with TopCat here. Other options would be to perhaps
>give the player-character the chance to meet some nice Free Spirit with
>Astral Gateway. Could help him initiate a bit sooner if need be. Sure, the
>karma to the spirit is a bit expensive, but it might help.
>-Keith

The problem I see with that is if you have to involve some outside
force to make the cost affordable then there is something wrong with the
original cost. The stripped down, bare bones rule should make sense in
itself. You shouldn't have to go through a Deus ex Michina everytime just
to make it affordable. That sounds broken to me.
And it doesn't help that my friends and I play lower karma award
games. We just don't feel comfortable giving awards of much more than 3
Karma per session. Amongst three GM's running three different campaigns
with three different styles of play there were different sets of
characters for those games. Karma totals never got that high to begin
with. It's probably the reason Karma pools never became such a grand
issue for our games.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:07:24 +0100
|Could be interesting... wait, doesn't that sound a bit like the "magical
|edges" in the companion?
|(I don't own, nor have I read the companion, but I've heard enough about
|it from this list...)

I don't have it either....
But I think that works in such a way that every smuck gets edge points.
Even a phys ad could buy extra abilities with them.

The level 3 mage would only get ONE ability, and that's it...
(He might be able to improve it with Karma, but it should be expensive.)

With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral perception
effectively free.....

I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.

|You *could* also do it by letting the character have magic at C (or what
|ever corresponding point value that would be), with the restriction that
|they can get NONE of the skills at char-gen, nor do they get ANY force
|points.... which consequently means that they get no pools or spells at
|all, these must be learned "from the ground up" as it were.

Hmmmm.... I think I prefer mine better.
After all, after a few adventures, the disadvantage of that one would not be
as strong, and they'd begin to look like any other adept...
(Especially if he chose conjuring.... No spells)

|I don't know what you'd do about Astral Perception or Projection
|though...

I'd allow it as a special ability. They could only perceive/project, but not
much else. Any astral combat would default to a stat, say willpower with
penalties to T#... etc....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:24:57 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 06:05:34 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:

>
> As a house rule, I allow PAs to gain access to 1.25 points in powers for
> every 1 point of Magic Rating they "spend" on powers. However, they can
> only use a total amount of powers equal to their Magic Rating at once.
> Basically, this allows them to change the powers they have access to
> slightly whenever they like, without giving them any more power. The
> process for altering their powers takes a few hours and basically requires
> undisturbed meditation.

A few hours? Though your idea to me has some very nice merit, I would have
to know what they have to do in order to change powers inside of a few
hours...

>
> This give the PA more flexibility, but not more power at any given time.

That much I really do like the idea of, but IMHO, this may not be the best
way for it to occur. I admit that I just haven't seen this in action, though
I've heard about on the nets for years now.

>
> I already use a take on the gradual initiation rules. I allow anyone who
> is initiating 2 Metamagical abilities per initiate grade. Also, in my
> campaign, there is no Grade 0. Thus, when you first initiate, you are a
> grade 1 initiate.
> Justin :)

I think I got lost in the "2 Metamagical" abilities area...could you describe
this a bit more, personal email if you like would be fine, but in the open
would be nicer. I'm just not familiar with what you are saying at all.
-Keith
Message no. 25
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:39:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 07:14:26 EDT, mc23@**********.COM (MC23) writes:

>
> The problem I see with that is if you have to involve some outside
> force to make the cost affordable then there is something wrong with the
> original cost. The stripped down, bare bones rule should make sense in
> itself. You shouldn't have to go through a Deus ex Michina everytime just
> to make it affordable. That sounds broken to me.
>
The problem MC23, is that a Physical Adept is going to need to do something
on the part of Astral Gateway in order to initiate, or at least find the
Astral Contact initially. On that topic, could people out there please give
me their impressions of Astral Contacts....what they are, etcetera
etcetera...

I know it's been covered before, but something on the game mechanics has been
tweaking my interests lately...it's on the topic of AC's and the Passions
from ED.
Message no. 26
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:44:10 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 08:12:49 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral
perception
> effectively free.....

Oh yeah sure, but -I- wouldn't want to have my character near the guy. Sure
he could have all sorts of bonuses, but he'd probably have God Himself as the
ultimate, level 6 enemy. I have used the enemies, bad karma, and dark secret
flaws to the safer limits. Even had a player choose Bad Karma as a flaw
after she went to far and her totem got upset with her. Her idea, not mine.
I liked her choice though.

>
> I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.

No No No, not munchy...crunchy, with cream filling in the middle...

Seriously, Munchkinism, like Power, is a Choice. People choose to play that
level, even if they've done it so long they forget why they choose it.
-Keith
Message no. 27
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:53:16 -0400
> From: J. Keith Henry <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:24 PM

> In a message dated 97-07-06 06:05:34 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin
Pinnow)
> writes:

> > As a house rule, I allow PAs to gain access to 1.25 points in powers
for
> > every 1 point of Magic Rating they "spend" on powers. However, they
can
> > only use a total amount of powers equal to their Magic Rating at once.
> > Basically, this allows them to change the powers they have access to
> > slightly whenever they like, without giving them any more power. The
> > process for altering their powers takes a few hours and basically
requires
> > undisturbed meditation.

> A few hours? Though your idea to me has some very nice merit, I would
have
> to know what they have to do in order to change powers inside of a few
> hours...

The following are house rules and should not be taken as canon:

Basically, if the PA wants to alter his abilities to other powers he has
access to (remember that he has access to 1.25 points of powers per Magic
Rating point, but can only use 1.0 powers per Magic Rating point at once),
he must meditate without interruption for a number of hours equal to his
Magic Rating divided by 2 (round bad). If this meditation is interrupted,
the process is aborted and the powers remain as they were before the
meditation was attempted. This meditation does not provide rest as if
sleep had occurred, however. If the PA wants to gain the benefits of sleep
that day, he must also sleep the standard 6-8 hours, or whatever.

> > This give the PA more flexibility, but not more power at any given
time.

> That much I really do like the idea of, but IMHO, this may not be the
best
> way for it to occur. I admit that I just haven't seen this in action,
though
> I've heard about on the nets for years now.

I feel it's a reasonable way to allow a PA to have a little more
flexibility, without going overboard. Keep in mind that when they "spend"
their point of Magic Rating, they must also "spend" the other .25 point.
This way, they don't have access to any powers that exist, only the chosen
ones. Thus, a beginning PA with 6 points "spent" for PA powers would get
to "buy" 8 points worth of powers. He could only have 6 points active at
any given time, however. In order to activate any different powers he
knows, he would have to meditate for 3 consecutive hours.

> > I already use a take on the gradual initiation rules. I allow anyone
who
> > is initiating 2 Metamagical abilities per initiate grade. Also, in my
> > campaign, there is no Grade 0. Thus, when you first initiate, you are
a
> > grade 1 initiate.
> > Justin :)

> I think I got lost in the "2 Metamagical" abilities area...could you
describe
> this a bit more, personal email if you like would be fine, but in the
open
> would be nicer. I'm just not familiar with what you are saying at all.

Okay. :) Shielding, Centering, Masking, etc. are all Metamagical
abilities. When you Initiate, you are gaining access to Metamagic and the
abilities within the realm of Metamagic. Thus, in my campaign, when you
initiate the first time you choose 2 Metamagical abilities available to
your character (as appropriate) and you know them. You are also a Grade 1
Initiate. However, in order to learn Reflective Shielding, you would need
to already know Shielding (think of it as a prerequisite). You could NOT
learn both of these during the same Initiation. (There are other examples
of prerequisites, I believe, but this one came to mind first.) I also
require my players to find an instructor to introduce them into their first
Initiation. That way, the instructor can tell them that he doesn't feel
they are ready for the realm of Metamagic yet if they try to Initiate too
soon. Keeps some control in the hands of the GM.

To offset these limitations a little, I have done away with Grade 0
Initiation. It just doesn't exist.

Hope that helps. :)

The above were house rules, and should not be taken as canon.

> -Keith

Justin :)
Message no. 28
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:06:32 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 12:55:35 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:

>
> I feel it's a reasonable way to allow a PA to have a little more
> flexibility, without going overboard. Keep in mind that when they "spend"
> their point of Magic Rating, they must also "spend" the other .25 point.
> This way, they don't have access to any powers that exist, only the chosen
> ones. Thus, a beginning PA with 6 points "spent" for PA powers would get
> to "buy" 8 points worth of powers. He could only have 6 points active at
> any given time, however. In order to activate any different powers he
> knows, he would have to meditate for 3 consecutive hours.
>
Okay, now I understand the idea of the extra points better. Solution
Found...thanks
Message no. 29
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:07:46 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-06 12:55:35 EDT, vanyel@*******.NET (Justin Pinnow)
writes:

>
> Okay. :) Shielding, Centering, Masking, etc. are all Metamagical
> abilities. When you Initiate, you are gaining access to Metamagic and the
> abilities within the realm of Metamagic. Thus, in my campaign, when you
> initiate the first time you choose 2 Metamagical abilities available to
> your character (as appropriate) and you know them. You are also a Grade 1
> Initiate. However, in order to learn Reflective Shielding, you would need
> to already know Shielding (think of it as a prerequisite). You could NOT
> learn both of these during the same Initiation. (There are other examples
> of prerequisites, I believe, but this one came to mind first.) I also
> require my players to find an instructor to introduce them into their
first
> Initiation. That way, the instructor can tell them that he doesn't feel
> they are ready for the realm of Metamagic yet if they try to Initiate too
> soon. Keeps some control in the hands of the GM.
>
And I understand this better now as well. You are like many that have people
develop their initiate talents over time. Not bad...but not for us (this
group here).
Message no. 30
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:15:48 -0600
Bruce wrote:
|
| >And of course initiation is a collossal rip-off for physads... They have to
| >spend at least 20 karma to get to grade 1 at which time they get to spend
| >another whole point! Wow, I can buy a general skill at level 4 or get a
| >whole physad point!
| >
| >>>>>>>Agreed. I solved this by cutting the costs of Physad powers
in half
| after character generation.<<<<<<<

As others have said, for Priority B the system is fine, IMHO. What I'm
thinking of doing is allowing Priority A PhysAds, which have 2 points to
spend on PA abilities per point of Magic. My reasoning is that Priority A
Magicians have basically twice as many options as Priority B Adepts.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:24 +0100
Spike said on 13:07/ 6 Jul 97...

> With edges, a phys ad could buy ALL his abilities AND get astral perception
> effectively free.....

I don't allow several edges in my game, and have adjusted the costs for
others. I'm not sure about the Magical Talent edges, so for the moment
I've disallowed them on the basis that they duplicate what actual
magicians do and can too much; High Pain Tolerance is another one: at 1
point per box, why would a physad want to spend .5 Magic Points per box on
what is essentially the same thing?

> I don't like the idea of edges. Too munchy.

Depends on the edge, IMHO. Some are just too easy to abuse, while others
make for interesting characters. The real trick is getting players to take
those instead of the easy bonuses :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 32
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 16:05:02 -0500
At 08:06 AM 7/5/97 GMT, Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE>
wrote:

>Uhm. You are partially right, but there is one major thing you do not
>pay attention to: While Sammies have a split up preference between
>Karma and NuYen the PhysAdsa just need Karma. Sammies can always do a
>run for some company that builds wiz Cyberware and get one of their
>products in reward. There is nothing comparable to this for a PhysAd.

If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
does he hand out karma. Neither would I.


Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 33
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:57:59 GMT
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Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.

Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much
karma. Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
than a PA does.

Later,
Georg

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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Message no. 34
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:33:34 -0500
At 10:57 PM 7/7/97 GMT, Georg wrote:
>Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes:
>> If you have a GM who gives stuff without you having to work for it. Saying
>> that a sam can get wiz gear and lots of cash just by doing a run or two
>> isn't any different than a physad who gets karma off a run or two. You
>> forget that if your GM gives out money and stuff easily, then there's
>> another one that gives out ton's of karma. And there are plenty who are
>> right in the middle. My current GM doesn't hand out nuyen and tech, nor
>> does he hand out karma. Neither would I.

>Of course that is true - but if you play a somewhat clever and skilled
>group it is extremely easy to make some money (heck - used cyberware,
>fetishes, extra data, stollen goods are so easy to acquire and pretty
>easy to sell), while you just cannot even make remotely as much karma.

I allow this, but I don't pay out a whole lot for runs and fairly strictly
enforce the 30% fencing guidleline. In the end, a fair amount of cash is
collected and the karma reward balances out overall.

I tend to give a little heavier on the karma at the beginning of a campaign
and light on the cash. As the characters gain more reknown, they either
take on tougher jobs or they get less karma (what are they really learning
from doing something they've done before now that it's dirt easy?). Most
jobs pay off in nuyen, others don't, some don't pay in anything. No matter
what though (as long as it's even sort of a challenge) the players will get
karma.

>Our GMs tend to be very restrictive on Karma (fortunately we
>have a GM at the moment that is not as restrictive as our usual
>one)... this means the other characters are developing much faster
>than a PA does.

The problem here, as it seems to me, is that your physad probably...

A) Doesn't know how to spend karma to his best benefit
B) Relies far too heavily on or thinks only of Initiation
C) Forgot what money can really do for you
D) Wants to be as powerful as a Street Samurai, without the drawbacks
E) Forgot the perks of physad existence
F) Any combination of the above

Now, the problem could also lie in your GM. Have the physad player explain
his problem with being underpowered compared to everyone else (is he
*really* underpowered or is he just slower than a fully wired samurai and
not as good of an aim?). A good GM will then work with the player to help
him out. Maybe he'll give him a break on Initiation or some extra karma
(karma-for-cash rules, anyone?), maybe he just offers some RP'ing tips,
maybe he'll offer some karma-spending tips that the player hadn't condiered,
maybe he'll shrug and say "sucks to be you". As long as it's something
other than the last, the physad player will be better off than he was before
he took the time to ask.

My physad character (Vagabond) was perhaps the most powerful character on
our Shadowrun team. He wasn't blindingly fast (6+2D6), but he was played
smart and he was very effective at what he did. I didn't try to make him a
front-line samurai, he wouldn't have done well in that role. I didn't try
to make him into a monster-grade initiate, there were better places to spend
his karma. I didn't forget about the nuyen I'd made on runs just because
"physads need karma more".

Money can be used to establish connections, LOTS of them. A runner lives
and dies by the strength and security of his contacts. It can also be used
to get SOTA gear to make life easier on you (a dikoted secure jacket is a
nice investment, likewise a *very good* fake SIN and surveillance gear). It
can also be set aside for a "retirement fund". Money can be used in so many
places for so many things that any character who would discount it because
it isn't karma and he needs karma to initiate should seriously rethink his ways.

If I were your game's physad player, I'd sit down and really think about
what kind of character I was playing. If all that matters to me are
attribute and skill points and levels of Initiation, then there are ways
that I can go about doing that. If actually having a character for any
purpose other than dungeon-crawls is on my mind, then I'd work from that
perspective. I personally work from this perspective now unless trying to
prove a point or for comedy's sake (remember Gun Bunny Deluxe and the Troll
Tank?), but I can't fault someone for playing a dungeon-crawler if that's
what they really want to do.

Anyways, have him consider his character a bit and ask the GM (or even
fellow players) for his opinions and help and I think the situation will
resolve itself painlessly and to the satisfaction of all parties involved.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 35
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:33:06 GMT
TopCat writes

> >I play up the stealth-undetectable aspects of PhysAds in my game. I
> >have considered though giving the iniatition cost a .5 multipler
> >reduction for physical adepts only. I haven't quite given over completely
> >to it though. I would say this is all they would need.
>
> I also, utilize the great potential for stealth that physads have access to.
> Since stealth is cheap to raise by Magic (.25 magic/level) and it has no
> limit (most skill enhancements are limited to your base "natural" skill
> level), it can be raised to obscene levels cheaply. Athletics, I believe,
> also functions this way.
correct. The ability to start with these skills at an effective 12 is
wonderful and sammies just cannot match it.

> Throw in abilities like *natural* heightened
> senses (much better than the cybered equivalents),
They are far more costly though, cyber eyes will buy you 3 vision
mods for 1 physad one at 0.25, though given they count natural for
the lighting table you are correct :)

> and traceless walk and
> you've got yourself one vicious infiltration expert with great perceptive
> skills, speed like a track star, climbing ability like a spider monkey, and
> can use it all with unparalleled stealth...
>
> I'd hold off on giving physads a 0.5 initiation modifier, that would produce
> monstrous physads over a very short time, killing game balance between
> characters. If you truly feel they need an initiation boost, try what
> someone else mentioned and allow them to skip the 0 level of initiation.
>
> >Also don't forget that PhyAds can get magically healed easier than
> >their Sammie buddy lying next to him. I've seen that happen in plenty a
> >game, Serious to Light with just "a wave of the hand".
Very true!

>
> Physads have a lot of benefits (most of which were already mentioned by
> myself and others in this thread) that some physad players take for granted.

The problems with physical adepts for many people is there isn't an
archtype in the book (awakenings and onr of the flyers do contain
physical adpets but none of these stress what they are really good at)

You are never going to build a 'pure' (ie uncybered) physical adept
that can get all that close to a sammie at sammie jobs, the powers
cost too much, however given that with initiation physical adepts may
buy everything the sammie can and more the physad will (eventually
it could take 1000+ karma for the law of diminishing returns to
catch up though) win any power race.
What physical adepts do well though like spellcasters is stealth,
their powers don't show on cyberware scanners, and cannopt easily be
taken off them, they can also easily be twice as good as everyone
else at melee combat, unarmed, stealth and athletics and may bond
weapon foci, The problem lies in that building a 'quite reasonable
sammie' just means wired 2 and a smartgun with firearms 6, mage its
+3D6 reflexes, sorcery 6 an a manabolt while a decent physical adept
requires a bit more knowledge of what they are good at and how things
work, having watched my (GM tooled up) 250 karma super physad flatten
an entire 6 PC party(of 200 to 260 karma PC's) unarmed before any of
them got an action they can be tooled and become just as powerful as
any other character type (even in 2nd ed, which the example was).

Mark
Message no. 36
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:04:13 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

TopCat <topcat@***.NET> writes:
> The problem here, as it seems to me, is that your physad probably...
> A) Doesn't know how to spend karma to his best benefit

Uhm - Don't know... how much choice do you have with 15 points of good
Karma after three runs ? Being non-initiated I try to initiate
first... (o.k. - I got myself that Electronics skill first and some
Magical Theory, but now I want to initiate)

> B) Relies far too heavily on or thinks only of Initiation

Don't think so - Level 1 (heck ... even Level 0) would be nice to have.

> C) Forgot what money can really do for you

What you don't have cannot do you any good. I spent a lot of money on
equipment, but my character is just not the type who would scavenge
dead bodies for their eq usually.

> D) Wants to be as powerful as a Street Samurai, without the drawbacks

No - I want to be different... and I am already better when it comes
to Stealth and MA - but there are juyt certain things you NEED to have
if you want to survive (like speed, for instance).

> E) Forgot the perks of physad existence

See D.

> F) Any combination of the above

Actually I think none of the above is true - but of course you might
always disagree.

> Now, the problem could also lie in your GM. Have the physad player explain
> his problem with being underpowered compared to everyone else (is he
> *really* underpowered or is he just slower than a fully wired samurai and
> not as good of an aim?). A good GM will then work with the player to help
> him out. Maybe he'll give him a break on Initiation or some extra karma
> (karma-for-cash rules, anyone?), maybe he just offers some RP'ing tips,
> maybe he'll offer some karma-spending tips that the player hadn't condiered,
> maybe he'll shrug and say "sucks to be you". As long as it's something
> other than the last, the physad player will be better off than he was before
> he took the time to ask.

Uhm - tips: Not very probable... I am the most experienced player
(heck, I am one of the oldest SR players around on this planet... we
started when the first edition just came out) and pretty often the GM
asks me for my advice on rules because I just know them out of my head
or know where to find them so we don't lose as much time in
time-critical situations.

Roleplaying : The GM and I both agree our way of roleplaying my
Japanese Ninja with ties to the Yakuza is pretty cool because we try
to keep the japanese touch. Things aren't said - you just give certain
hints, it is more important how you say something that what you say
sometimes and so on...

Him recognising me being underpowered: Uncertain. As an experienced
roleplayer I keep my character out of situations that he can not
surive... meaning: I try to create situation where he will kick
ass. ;-) And until now I was pretty good at it. Actually the main
problem of my character is that he is dead slow and has no real
long-range potential... both major drawbacks in the SR world.

> My physad character (Vagabond) was perhaps the most powerful character on
> our Shadowrun team. He wasn't blindingly fast (6+2D6), but he was played
> smart and he was very effective at what he did. I didn't try to make him a
> front-line samurai, he wouldn't have done well in that role. I didn't try
> to make him into a monster-grade initiate, there were better places to spend
> his karma. I didn't forget about the nuyen I'd made on runs just because
> "physads need karma more".

Heck - I am the one with the toys in the team... and they costed me
yuite some money. But that bug scanner has proven REALLY useful, for
instance.

> Money can be used to establish connections, LOTS of them. A runner lives
> and dies by the strength and security of his contacts. It can also be used
> to get SOTA gear to make life easier on you (a dikoted secure jacket is a
> nice investment, likewise a *very good* fake SIN and surveillance gear). It
> can also be set aside for a "retirement fund". Money can be used in so
many
> places for so many things that any character who would discount it because
> it isn't karma and he needs karma to initiate should seriously rethink his ways.

I think you misunderstood me a little there. I do know the value of
money, BUT it is not as important as Karma to me... for mages and
physads, that is.

> If I were your game's physad player, I'd sit down and really think about
> what kind of character I was playing. If all that matters to me are
> attribute and skill points and levels of Initiation, then there are ways

That is what I really did. My character is basically some stealthy
ninja type (because that is what physads are best at) - the problem
is: Every Stealth situation might become a usual fight situation
pretty fast. All it needs is some lucky guy or an astral patrol. And
then I'd need more speed to get my ass outta there !

> Anyways, have him consider his character a bit and ask the GM (or even
> fellow players) for his opinions and help and I think the situation will
> resolve itself painlessly and to the satisfaction of all parties involved.

Don't misread me: I am having a LOT of fun (the group is pretty good
by now and the last run basically went as smooth as silk although the
bad guys were pretty good) and I really like that character. It is
just that in all these situations my character wasn't made for but he
always walks on the brink of I am basically solely relying on the
goodness of my GM... otherwise I'd be dead meat, because our GM tends
to equip his guys with APDS ammo, HVARs and the like whereas we just
have armor jackets & camo suits because we couldn't afford anything
else.
Being the only character who did not improve over the last 3 runs
sucks, too...

O.k. - but all in all I am having a LOT of fun and SR still is my
favorite RPG. I like playing my PA and I will continue to do so (if I
had wanted to play some munchkinous character I'd have taken one...)
because the challenge to play this character and keep him alive is
much more fun. I would like to see the PA system more balanced,
though. Basically a lot of the PA powers are too expensive - if that
would be fixed (and maybe the 0 Ini grade would be skipped) PAs would
certainly become more playable.

Later,
Georg

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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Message no. 37
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:02:13 -0500
You wrote:
> Don't misread me: I am having a LOT of fun (the group is pretty good
> by now and the last run basically went as smooth as silk although the
> bad guys were pretty good) and I really like that character. It is
> just that in all these situations my character wasn't made for but he
> always walks on the brink of I am basically solely relying on the
> goodness of my GM... otherwise I'd be dead meat, because our GM tends
> to equip his guys with APDS ammo, HVARs and the like whereas we just
> have armor jackets & camo suits because we couldn't afford anything
> else.
> Being the only character who did not improve over the last 3 runs
> sucks, too...
Are you saving up for Initiation? If so, that first rush of new abilities may
make up for that dry spell. All depends on how useful you find metamagic to be
for a physad.

losthalo
Message no. 38
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:13:08 -0600
Quoth J. Keith Henry:
>
> In a message dated 97-07-06 07:14:26 EDT, mc23@**********.COM (MC23) writes:
>
> >
> > The problem I see with that is if you have to involve some outside
> > force to make the cost affordable then there is something wrong with the
> > original cost. The stripped down, bare bones rule should make sense in
> > itself. You shouldn't have to go through a Deus ex Michina everytime just
> > to make it affordable. That sounds broken to me.
> >
> The problem MC23, is that a Physical Adept is going to need to do something
> on the part of Astral Gateway in order to initiate, or at least find the
> Astral Contact initially. On that topic, could people out there please give
> me their impressions of Astral Contacts....what they are, etcetera
> etcetera...

When we made a PhysAd group we enlisted the aid of a shaman to help us
get our astral contact. The rules are pretty slim in this area so we used
some common sense and a little bit of rules bending to accomplish this.
As to what an astral contact is or does, we never had the chance to
explore that.

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 39
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:54:54 GMT
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
> Are you saving up for Initiation? If so, that first rush of new abilities may
> make up for that dry spell. All depends on how useful you find metamagic to be
> for a physad.

Yeah - I am saving up for Level 0 Initiation... so masking - that's
basically it. Centering requires a special skill (so even more
karma)... *sigh*

Later,
Georg ;-)

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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Message no. 40
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:29:06 -0500
You wrote:
> Yeah - I am saving up for Level 0 Initiation... so masking - that's
> basically it. Centering requires a special skill (so even more
> karma)... *sigh*
Well, Masking alone makes Initiation worth it... now you don't even stand out
magically, don't show up on cyberware scanners, etc. Stealthiest char type in
SR.

losthalo
Message no. 41
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:44:57 -0600
Quoth Bruce H. Nagel:
>
> You wrote:
> > Yeah - I am saving up for Level 0 Initiation... so masking - that's
> > basically it. Centering requires a special skill (so even more
> > karma)... *sigh*
> Well, Masking alone makes Initiation worth it... now you don't even stand out
> magically, don't show up on cyberware scanners, etc. Stealthiest char type in
> SR.

You're right, of course, but you need to qualify that statement like so:
"you don't even stand out magically to non-initiates and lower grade
initiates who don't take the time to try to pierce the masking." Masking
is indeed a wonderful thing since it is on by default and requires no
concentration or effort. Perfect for the PhysAd on the move.

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 42
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:17:53 GMT
Shadowrun ML demon
> "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
> > Are you saving up for Initiation? If so, that first rush of new abilities may
> > make up for that dry spell. All depends on how useful you find metamagic to be
> > for a physad.
>
> Yeah - I am saving up for Level 0 Initiation... so masking - that's
> basically it. Centering requires a special skill (so even more
> karma)... *sigh*
>
You get the ability to notice peolpe masking (but not break it) if
you have astral perception, but.
Yeah phs-ads get a raw deal out of grade 0 but then you paid a 'B'
not 'A' for magic, the other adept types suffer as well.

However Masking is THE ability, allows you to tell lies on the astral
plane and sneak into places past the sec mage claiming to be Mr or
Mrs Bloggs and get away with it (Honest i don't have reflexes like
superman and more magically boosted unarmed combat than anything and
killing hands, honest :). Or even worse a cyberarm shotgun :) [ok
that takes some physical concealment as well but] 'tell' the mage you
have essence 6 and he at least won't be suspicious)

Mark
Message no. 43
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:44:36 -0700
So, for those of us that don't have SR3 (and might have to wait a few weeks):

Can phyads buy additional powers with Karma without initiating?
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 44
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:48:02 -0400
Once upon a time, Adam Getchell wrote;

>So, for those of us that don't have SR3 (and might have to wait a few weeks):
>
>Can phyads buy additional powers with Karma without initiating?

Yes, during play.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 45
From: "G.H. Metz" <wolfstar@********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:56:43 +0000
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, MC23 wrote:

> >Can phyads buy additional powers with Karma without initiating?
>
> Yes, during play.

One word: Eek. =)

Question though, did they change the starting power level of Physads in
any way?

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@shoelace.digivill.net/wolfstar@****.com
Home Page Under Construction!

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"My God, it's full of cars." - Monolith AutoPlex
Message no. 46
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:15:13 EDT
In a message dated 8/13/98 5:08:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> So, for those of us that don't have SR3 (and might have to wait a few
weeks):
>
> Can phyads buy additional powers with Karma without initiating?

Yes, after having been corrected ... the cost ois 20 points of karma for a
single Power Point with which you can purchase additional powers ... this
means .5 powers only cost 10 karma ... and enhanced senses (and other 0.25
powers) only cost 5 points of karma each.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 47
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:37:16 -0400
Once upon a time, Mike Bobroff wrote;

>Yes, after having been corrected ... the cost ois 20 points of karma for a
>single Power Point with which you can purchase additional powers ... this
>means .5 powers only cost 10 karma ... and enhanced senses (and other 0.25
>powers) only cost 5 points of karma each.
Whether or not you can break down the cost that way is a GM's call.
The rules only discuss 1 pt at a time, so that might be for deterrent
reasons. I would think it would be generally safe to say you should be
able to by those points in .25 increments.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

CRY HAVOC! And let slip the flames of SR3

I am MC23
Message no. 48
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:42:37 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/1998 8:16:01 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM writes:

>
> > So, for those of us that don't have SR3 (and might have to wait a few
> weeks):
> >
> > Can phyads buy additional powers with Karma without initiating?
>
> Yes, after having been corrected ... the cost ois 20 points of karma for a
> single Power Point with which you can purchase additional powers ... this
> means .5 powers only cost 10 karma ... and enhanced senses (and other 0.25
> powers) only cost 5 points of karma each.
>
NOW wait a second here Mike. It does NOT mean this, it merely means, as
Mongoose pointed out, that a merciful GM could allow for partial buying, but
that would most definitely be a "House Rule", and is not something offered up
in the SR3 rules anywhere.

Me personally, I think I like the idea of making the player save up his
character's Karma on this one and going for the whole Power Point. IF they do
not spend it all (the power point that is) at that time, then they lose the
rest of it IMO (poor planning on the PC's part).

-K
Message no. 49
From: Brandon Kern <bkern@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:01:14 -0700
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of K is the Symbol
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 8:43 AM
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
>
> Me personally, I think I like the idea of making the player save up his
character's Karma on this one and going for the whole Power
> Point.

Well, I'm more partial to gradual increases in power than to large leaps in
ability

(the biggest problem I have with level based RPGs-"I'm exactly the same over
the two months it took me to get enough exp. for my next level, but when I
kill this last orc all of my abilities go up.")

> IF they do not spend it all (the power point that is) at that time, then
> they lose the rest of it IMO (poor planning on the PC's part).

What is the non-mechanic rationale for this? It's not as if the *characters*
have to tally up the amount of karma they have gained and decide on what
powers they wish to develop.

You are www.primenet.com/~bkern
What you do ICQ: 879171
When it counts. Pariah(-ic)
-The Masao
Message no. 50
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:23:48 EDT
Has anyone noticed that PA's got a lot better? Take a look at the cost for
increased initiative dice and the skills cost using magic points.

Not to mention that a PA can spend 20 karma to raise their magic attribute and
it is not considered initiation.

Otter
Message no. 51
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:28:52 -0700
> From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>

> Has anyone noticed that PA's got a lot better? Take a look at the cost
for
> increased initiative dice and the skills cost using magic points.
>
> Not to mention that a PA can spend 20 karma to raise their magic
attribute and
> it is not considered initiation.

Actually the twenty karma just gives them another power point, not another
magic point. It makes a big difference.

Caric
Message no. 52
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:37:21 -0500
>> Not to mention that a PA can spend 20 karma to raise their magic
>> attribute and it is not considered initiation.
>
>Actually the twenty karma just gives them another power point, not
>another magic point. It makes a big difference.

Yeah, but that power point can still go a long, long way....

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 53
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:36:35 -0700
> From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>

> >> Not to mention that a PA can spend 20 karma to raise their magic
> >> attribute and it is not considered initiation.
> >
> >Actually the twenty karma just gives them another power point, not
> >another magic point. It makes a big difference.
>
> Yeah, but that power point can still go a long, long way....

Oh granted it definitely can, but you do reach a point of diminishing
returns.

Caric
Message no. 54
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:49:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 9:43:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
caric@********.COM writes:

> Oh granted it definitely can, but you do reach a point of diminishing
> returns.
>

It still can be used to purchase more adept abilities. That was the point.

Otter
Message no. 55
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:41:12 -0700
> From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>

> > Oh granted it definitely can, but you do reach a point of diminishing
> > returns.
> >
>
> It still can be used to purchase more adept abilities. That was the
point.

Absolutely, and that is a great advantage, I was just trying to head off a
"Why initiate?" question before it was asked. :)

Caric
Message no. 56
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Physical Adepts
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:46:23 -0400
At 12:23 AM 8/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Has anyone noticed that PA's got a lot better? Take a look at the cost for
>increased initiative dice and the skills cost using magic points.

Yes, that was actually intended. Adepts were seen as in need of
improvement to make them viable PCs, or at least a viable alternative to
street samurai.

>Not to mention that a PA can spend 20 karma to raise their magic attribute
and
>it is not considered initiation.

No, it's not initiation. No, it does not raise the magic attribute. It is
merely another "power point" which can be spent.

Erik J.
Message no. 57
From: Dust <rogan@******.ORG>
Subject: SR3 Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:20:15 +0000
Haven't been on the list all summer,

So I probably missed a lot of SR3 discussion. I myself got to leaf
through a copy three weeks ago. I was wondering what people thought of
the different prices for physical adept powers. Particular the enhanced
initiative being cheaper for higher levels (2 & 3) but more expensive for
the good ol' reliable 1. {Personally that bugged me having the inc init
+1 costing 2 instead of 1 magic point now}

Also has anyone been min-maxing the increased attributes power? {now only
costing .5 per raise with no limit}

Well that's my two bits.

Lates,

Dust

*****************************************
* Roger J. An *
* rogan@******.org *
* http://users.bergen.org/~rogan/ *
*****************************************
* "I always think I've got it all *
* figured out. Then I live another day *
* and it gets more complicated." *
* - Scud the Disposable Assassin *
*****************************************
* "I slack therefore I am." *
* - Roger J. An *
*****************************************
Message no. 58
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: SR3 Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:32:49 -0500
----------
> From: Dust <rogan@******.ORG>
>
> So I probably missed a lot of SR3 discussion. I myself got to leaf
> through a copy three weeks ago. I was wondering what people thought of
> the different prices for physical adept powers. Particular the enhanced
> initiative being cheaper for higher levels (2 & 3) but more expensive
for
> the good ol' reliable 1. {Personally that bugged me having the inc init
> +1 costing 2 instead of 1 magic point now}

The increased reflexes is now the equivalent, at character creation, of
Wired Reflexes (meaning +2 reaction, +1d6 initiative). For those not
paying attention at home, Improved Attribute is now the equivalent of
Muscle replacement and Dermal Armor (up to racial maximum). The old style
+1d6 to Initiative for adepts didn't include the +2 to reaction.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 59
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Physical Adepts
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:39:16 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:20:15 +0000 Dust <rogan@******.ORG> writes:
>Haven't been on the list all summer,
>
>So I probably missed a lot of SR3 discussion. I myself got to leaf
>through a copy three weeks ago. I was wondering what people thought of
>the different prices for physical adept powers. Particular the enhanced
>initiative being cheaper for higher levels (2 & 3) but more expensive
for
>the good ol' reliable 1. {Personally that bugged me having the inc init
>+1 costing 2 instead of 1 magic point now}

Except in SR3, you get +1D6 -AND- +2 reaction for those 2 points

In SR2, in order to get the same bonus, it would cost you anywhere from 2
to 5 points!!! (1 point for the +1D6, and .5 to 2 per point of reaction
enhancement)

>Also has anyone been min-maxing the increased attributes power? {now
only
>costing .5 per raise with no limit}

nope ... it costs .5 *up to the racial maximum* after that it's double.
This is just slightly cheaper than SR2 ...

>Well that's my two bits.
>
>Lates,
>
>Dust
<SNIP Sig>

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Further Reading

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Thwap!