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Message no. 1
From: java <java@**********.COM>
Subject: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:10:45 -0400
Greetings,

I ran into a quandary yesterday during our weekly game, The runners went
down an elevator shaft into a secure facility , when they did they passed
through a ward. There was no magic going so there was no problem. On the
way back up the 2 shamans had increased reflexes locked into a sustaining
foci. I thought I had them but, there is no mention of this in BABY. Since
there is no grounding from astral space, wards are only effective on the
astral plane, Right?

On another note, I really enjoyed listening to my shamans whine "you mean
I have to take drain every time I want to increase my initiative to 4d6!???
I might as well be useless......" [Duck Squzeers emerge with SR3]




"I don't do fruit. Is toothpaste a fruit?"
-The Tick

java@**********.com
Message no. 2
From: laughingman <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 03:39:18 +0200
And so it came to happen that java wrote:
----------
> Greetings,
>
> I ran into a quandary yesterday during our weekly game, The
runners went
> down an elevator shaft into a secure facility , when they did they passed
> through a ward. There was no magic going so there was no problem. On
the
> way back up the 2 shamans had increased reflexes locked into a sustaining
> foci. I thought I had them but, there is no mention of this in BABY.
Since
> there is no grounding from astral space, wards are only effective on the
> astral plane, Right?

As far as I know is a sustaining focus active on the astral plane and in
the real world.
So I do not see why this should be a problem. The focus is activce, it can
not pass so can
not the wearer of the focus

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to archive.
Message no. 3
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:09:33 -0400
On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, java wrote:

->Greetings,
->
-> I ran into a quandary yesterday during our weekly game, The runners went
->down an elevator shaft into a secure facility , when they did they passed
->through a ward. There was no magic going so there was no problem. On the
->way back up the 2 shamans had increased reflexes locked into a sustaining
->foci. I thought I had them but, there is no mention of this in BABY. Since
->there is no grounding from astral space, wards are only effective on the
->astral plane, Right?

Actually the ward would attack the foci, being they would be
astrally active and are trying to breach the ward.

-> On another note, I really enjoyed listening to my shamans whine
->"you mean I have to take drain every time I want to increase my
->initiative to 4d6!??? I might as well be useless......" [Duck Squzeers
->emerge with SR3]

When the players whine about things being unfair, you are doing
your job correctly as an EvilGM (tm).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 4
From: Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 07:04:31 PDT
>Actually the ward would attack the foci, being they would be
>astrally active and are trying to breach the ward.
>
>
>Fixer -

Wouldn't the foci counter attack too. They try to defend themseleves in
astral combat just like any other Astrally active object.

What would happen in this case? The elevator is still moving. The ward
can't be moved. Would people just run astral combat in a series of
instant turns to determine which item over came which? Or the victor of
the one combat test would breech or destroy the loser?

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:40:11 -0400
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Razor Girl wrote:

->>Actually the ward would attack the foci, being they would be
->>astrally active and are trying to breach the ward.
->>
->>
->>Fixer -
->
->Wouldn't the foci counter attack too. They try to defend themseleves in
->astral combat just like any other Astrally active object.
->
->What would happen in this case? The elevator is still moving. The ward
->can't be moved. Would people just run astral combat in a series of
->instant turns to determine which item over came which? Or the victor of
->the one combat test would breech or destroy the loser?

Opinion time!
Ok, the elevator is still moving, the foci would hit the barrier
and stop. Being dual natured (while active) the Foci would stop on it's
side of the ward and yes, the two would duke it out. When the Foci hit
the floor (or ceiling, depending on which way it was moving) I'd have a
hard decision:
1) Determine which was greater, the Force of the Foci, the Force
of the ward or the Force of the elevator.
1A) If the Force of the ward was close to the Force of the
Foci and greater than the Force of the elevator, the elevator would stop
and start emergency procedures (being it thinks it's stuck).
1B) If the Force of the ward and the Force of the Foci were
greatly different (like one being twice as strong as the other), the
stronger would win and the other would be destroyed (rendered permanently
inert if the Foci lost). The greater would be reduced permanently by the
Force of the latter. Note, if the Foci lost, it would no longer be
astrally active and would easily pass through the barrier at this point
and not stop the elevator.
2) Ignore all the forces, run a quick, instantaneous battle of
the Foci & ward until one breaks, and be done with it.
3) Force the sustaining Foci to be shut off, losing the sustained
spell and allowing it to pass through the ward.
4) Something I haven't thought of.

I'd go for 3 (if in a bad mood) or 2 (if in a good mood).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:01:43 +0200
According to Razor Girl, at 7:04 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Wouldn't the foci counter attack too. They try to defend themseleves in
> astral combat just like any other Astrally active object.

In this case, I'd say it's the ward that's the attacker, as its purpose is
to block astral movement.

> What would happen in this case? The elevator is still moving. The ward
> can't be moved. Would people just run astral combat in a series of
> instant turns to determine which item over came which? Or the victor of
> the one combat test would breech or destroy the loser?

This would probably be run as a series of astral combat sequences between
the ward and the focus, as per page 176 of SR3. This could take a couple
of turns, so I guess you could have characters getting stuck because their
foci won't pass through a wall the characters aren't bothered by.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:10:32 PDT
>According to Razor Girl, at 7:04 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...
>
>> Wouldn't the foci counter attack too. They try to defend
>>themseleves in astral combat just like any other Astrally active >>
object.
>
>In this case, I'd say it's the ward that's the attacker, as its
>purpose is to block astral movement.
>
>> What would happen in this case? The elevator is still moving. The
ward
>> can't be moved. Would people just run astral combat in a series of
>> instant turns to determine which item over came which? Or the victor
of
>> the one combat test would breech or destroy the loser?
>
>This would probably be run as a series of astral combat sequences
between
>the ward and the focus, as per page 176 of SR3. This could take a
couple
>of turns, so I guess you could have characters getting stuck because
their
>foci won't pass through a wall the characters aren't bothered by.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl -

This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
implications.

Wards become great for defending bases with. Generate a ward around the
front door of a warehouse, the Star SWAT team drives through to attack
the place, suddenly their Citymaster stops as the Mage with the spirit
focus and Adept with weapon focus get slamed against their seats and the
foci fly to the back of the truck. Dead stop.

Or even just have a ward in a room with a sky light. Any Tir Ghosts try
and crash thorugh, the contiue down into the base without foci.

Imagine a foci in a metal box. This box is carried by a munchkin Troll
with a strength of 20 (i know it can be higher, but bear with me). The
troll walks into a room with a ward. The last third of the box will not
go the whole way through the door becasue of the Focus/Ward conflict.
The troll is yanking and pulling against an invisible wall that won't
let the focus through.

Is this what would happen?


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:45:33 -0600
Razor Girl's contribution to ShadowRN was:
/
/ >This would probably be run as a series of astral combat sequences
/ between
/ >the ward and the focus, as per page 176 of SR3. This could take a
/ couple
/ >of turns, so I guess you could have characters getting stuck because
/ their
/ >foci won't pass through a wall the characters aren't bothered by.
/ >
/ >--
/ >Gurth@******.nl -
/
/ This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
/ ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
/ an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
/ implications.

Yes it would, which is why I wouldn't do it that way :)

I would rule that in such cases when a dual natured object is carried
through an astral ward/barrier, the object and the ward fight eachother
using one test. If the ward/barrier is not brought down the focus is
destroyed. If the focus drops the barrier, it passes through the
ward/barrier (use the ward/barrier rules to determine what happens to
the ward/barrier).

In such cases when a dual natured being is forced through a ward (a
perceiving mage is knocked off a building and falls through a ward) I
would do the same thing. Both the being and the ward/barrier attack
eachother. If the being drops the barrier he passes through (the mage
continues on his way to the ground). If the ward/barrier is not
defeated then the being, if possible, loses it's dual natured status
(in the case of the mage his astral perception shuts off, a manifest
spirit returns wholly to the astral plane and bounces off the ward).
If the loss of dual natured status is not possible (a hell hound) it is
immediately killed (which means it's no longer dual natured).

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:59:03 -0400
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Razor Girl wrote:

<Snip foci, elevator & ward example>
->This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
->ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
->an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
->implications.

Ok, admitted, we have a problem.

->Wards become great for defending bases with. Generate a ward around the
->front door of a warehouse, the Star SWAT team drives through to attack
->the place, suddenly their Citymaster stops as the Mage with the spirit
->focus and Adept with weapon focus get slamed against their seats and the
->foci fly to the back of the truck. Dead stop.

And the rest of the team flies to the front of the truck.....

->Or even just have a ward in a room with a sky light. Any Tir Ghosts try
->and crash thorugh, the contiue down into the base without foci.

"Hey mage, turn off the levitation spell....."
"I don't HAVE a levitation spell on!"

->Imagine a foci in a metal box. This box is carried by a munchkin Troll
->with a strength of 20 (i know it can be higher, but bear with me). The
->troll walks into a room with a ward. The last third of the box will not
->go the whole way through the door becasue of the Focus/Ward conflict.
->The troll is yanking and pulling against an invisible wall that won't
->let the focus through.
->
->Is this what would happen?

Ok, let's rethink this whole thing. Even I jump to conclusions
and I believe both Gurth and I did so in this instance.
If the ward was on the elevator shaft, it would have stopped the
runners when they tried to enter the elevator. If the ward was only on a
particular section of the elevator shaft, and the runners rode through
that area inside the elevator, their foci would have been protected by the
aura (albiet thin aura) of the elevator.
I reread the section on foci and wards and, to the best of my
ability, I don't believe if a foci and a ward came in contact that they
would attack each other. Attempting to cross an astral barrier does not
constitute an attack, and foci and astral barriers only attack each other
if they themselves are attacked.
Ok, now we get the problem of unstoppable forces & immovable
objects. Instead of riding inside the elevator, let's say our intrepid
runner is on top of the elevator and still has that active foci. The foci
hits the ward and the elevator tries to rise upwards still. The ward
tries to prevent the foci from entering but the elevator keeps pushing the
foci upwards. The foci is not attacking the ward, it's simply attempting
to cross the ward.
<Winnie the pooh impression>
think think think
</impression>
I'd say consult the ramming rules. Nothing else really applies
here. No attacks are being performed but you are attempting to move an
object through a barrier..... The force of the foci can be considered the
strength of the connection between the foci and it's astral presence. If
the foci is weaker than the barrier, the foci will have it's astral
presence removed and destroyed. Please note that the astral barrier does
have a barrier rating and is just as solid to magical objects as a normal
barrier is to physical objects. Ok, if the foci can withstand the force
of being crushed between an elevator and the ward, and none of them give
way (unlikely) the elevator will stop. More than likely, either the
strength of the elevator or the force of the ward or the force of the foci
will be greater, and the greatest will win. The lowest will, of course,
lose. If it happens to be the foci, this could result in the object being
rendered inert astrally, as it's astral form is ripped from it. If it's
the ward, the ward simply collapses until the object has passed through
it. In no case should the elevator be damaged unless it's roof is made of
glass or some similarly weak material.
All the above is IMO.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:01:58 -0400
At 12:10 PM 9/14/98 PDT, you wrote:

>This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
>ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
>an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
>implications.
><SNIPPED>
>Is this what would happen?

Nope.

The combat between the active focus and the ward would be happening
essentially instantaneously, with neither side capable of retreat. Either
the ward would crash down (not highly likely) or the focus would be broken.
Once that focus is broken, then it isn't active any longer and so the
focus and the ward are no longer in conflict.

Broken, disrupted, whatever. I'm having really rough Monday and my brain
probably won't slip into gear until Tuesday.

But I think you still get the gist of things.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 11
From: laughingman <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:00:16 +0200
And so it came to happen that Razorgirl wrote:

<Sniped>
> This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
> ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
> an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
> implications.

Yes sounds like it means loads of crashed Ribbons, Fingers and strangled
Mages/
Shamans etc. Well of course if the Foci are set on "go!".

> Wards become great for defending bases with. Generate a ward around the
> front door of a warehouse, the Star SWAT team drives through to attack
> the place, suddenly their Citymaster stops as the Mage with the spirit
> focus and Adept with weapon focus get slamed against their seats and the
> foci fly to the back of the truck. Dead stop.
>
> Or even just have a ward in a room with a sky light. Any Tir Ghosts try
> and crash thorugh, the contiue down into the base without foci.
>
> Imagine a foci in a metal box. This box is carried by a munchkin Troll
> with a strength of 20 (i know it can be higher, but bear with me). The
> troll walks into a room with a ward. The last third of the box will not
> go the whole way through the door becasue of the Focus/Ward conflict.
> The troll is yanking and pulling against an invisible wall that won't
> let the focus through.
>
> Is this what would happen?

Yup, once again sounds like, hm?
But to say that, the rules are not very specific
about that. There seems to be two ways to look at it.

First, one might mention the following:
"Spells cast through a barrier at a target on the other
side add the force of the barrier to the target number of the spell. This
is true
of both the physical and the astral."
(SR 3rd. Page 174 first column)

There seems to be a way that mana can slip past a barrier. And as it is
true
for both astral and physical, there seems to be a way that you can cast
your
fireball through a ward/barrier even though it has a physical component. It
just
makes it harder.
So, why not take this:

Apply the Force of the barrier as a malus on either strength or quickness
(whichever
is more apropriate) and let the bearer of the focus make a test with this
decreased
Attribute against a TN of the Force of the barrier/ward. Depending on the
sucesses
you'll see what happens. This is a bit waivy to say the least, but maybe
something
to start with.

Second, one might mention that the focus and the ward/barrier must fight it
out, aka
one wins, the other looses. As this takes time we'll have to deal with
problems like the ones
mentioned above (crashed ribbins etc...). After a winner has been "fought
out" the bearer
of the focus can pass through the barrier.
"If the objects Force is reduced to zero, it is overcome, but not yet
destroyed.<snip>
If an astral barrier is suppressed, any astral or dual form can pass
through it."
(SR 3rd. Page 176 second column)

As it would seem logic to me that a suppressed focus isn't very magical it
can pass.
If the ward is surppressed, any one can go through, at least for one full
combatturn.
(SR 3rd. Page 176 second column)

Ups, sorry, seems that I have gotten long a bit, but I hope it gives some
ideas.
BTW, can anyone help me changing my Listname? I can't get an idea how it
worx.
e-mail privatly please to spare electrons.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to archive.
Message no. 12
From: laughingman <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:08:34 +0200
Now for everyone to read, sorry.

And so it came to happen that Razorgirl wrote:

<Sniped>
> This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
> ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
> an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
> implications.

Yes sounds like it means loads of crashed Ribbons, Fingers and strangled
Mages/Shamans etc. Well of course if the Foci are set on "go!".

> Wards become great for defending bases with. Generate a ward around the
> front door of a warehouse, the Star SWAT team drives through to attack
> the place, suddenly their Citymaster stops as the Mage with the spirit
> focus and Adept with weapon focus get slamed against their seats and the
> foci fly to the back of the truck. Dead stop.
>
> Or even just have a ward in a room with a sky light. Any Tir Ghosts try
> and crash thorugh, the contiue down into the base without foci.
>
> Imagine a foci in a metal box. This box is carried by a munchkin Troll
> with a strength of 20 (i know it can be higher, but bear with me). The
> troll walks into a room with a ward. The last third of the box will not
> go the whole way through the door becasue of the Focus/Ward conflict.
> The troll is yanking and pulling against an invisible wall that won't
> let the focus through.
>
> Is this what would happen?

Yup, once again sounds like, hm?
But to say that, the rules are not very specific
about that. There seems to be two ways to look at it.

First, one might mention the following:
"Spells cast through a barrier at a target on the other side add the force
of the barrier to the target number of the spell. This is true of both the

physical and the astral."
(SR 3rd. Page 174 first column)

There seems to be a way that mana can slip past a barrier. And as it is
true for both astral and physical, there seems to be a way that you can
cast your fireball through a ward/barrier even though it has a physical
component. It just makes it harder.

So, why not take this:

Apply the Force of the barrier as a malus on either strength or quickness
(whichever is more apropriate) and let the bearer of the focus make a test
with this decreased Attribute against a TN of the Force of the barrier/ward
Depending on the sucesses you'll see what happens. This is a bit waivy
to say the least, but maybe something to start with.

Second, one might mention that the focus and the ward/barrier must fight it
out, aka one wins, the other looses. As this takes time we'll have to deal
with problems like the ones mentioned above (crashed ribbins etc...). After

a winner has been "fought out" the bearer of the focus can pass through the
barrier.
"If the objects Force is reduced to zero, it is overcome, but not yet
destroyed
<snip>If an astral barrier is suppressed, any astral or dual form can pass
through it."
(SR 3rd. Page 176 second column)

As it would seem logic to me that a suppressed focus isn't very magical it
can pass. If the ward is surppressed, any one can go through, at least for
one full combatturn.
(SR 3rd. Page 176 second column)

Ups, sorry, seems that I have gotten long a bit, but I hope it gives some
ideas.
BTW, can anyone help me changing my Listname? I can't get an idea how it
worx.
e-mail privatly please to spare electrons.

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to archive.
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:24:26 +0100
And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|
|According to Razor Girl, at 7:04 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
|
|> Wouldn't the foci counter attack too. They try to defend themseleves in
|> astral combat just like any other Astrally active object.
|
|In this case, I'd say it's the ward that's the attacker, as its purpose is
|to block astral movement.

Ahhhh. But wards are passive. They only attack in self defence.
It's the focus that's trying to get through it.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 14
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:08:46 -0400
This question is addressed in the ShadowFAQ, question M14
(http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html). The short answer is to look at
page 101 of Awakenings, which answer this exact question.

Evil counter question: A mage's body is half-way through the ward, as the
elevator rises. The mage picks that moment to astrally perceive. This makes
him astrally active, but the "shape" of an aura syncronizes to the shape of
the mage. Thus, half the aura is on one side of the ward, then rest on the
other side. The elevator continues to rise. What happens?

Wordman
Message no. 15
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 04:10:40 +0200
And so it came to happen that Wordman wrote:

> This question is addressed in the ShadowFAQ, question M14
> (http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html). The short answer is to look
at
> page 101 of Awakenings, which answer this exact question.
>
> Evil counter question: A mage's body is half-way through the ward, as the
> elevator rises. The mage picks that moment to astrally perceive. This
makes
> him astrally active, but the "shape" of an aura syncronizes to the shape
of
> the mage. Thus, half the aura is on one side of the ward, then rest on
the
> other side. The elevator continues to rise. What happens?
>
> Wordman

Ahem. Thought toppic was about SR 3rd. edition. There are actually
no good rules in that "lorebook" covering that toppic. But, as it was
mentioned on the first pages of SR 3rd. that Rulebook does NOT by
no means make other SR products obsolette. I think I can live with this
till MitS.

To the Evil counter question:
Bloody fight between ward and mage as he tries to pass through a
suddenly VERY solid barrier of air? Say the same like written before,
Astral Combat. But the magicwielder should make for a real swift
Combat.

And of course not to forget about the good ole boy that has build the ward
in some threatening hours of work, underpaid but proud of his art.
Guess I would try to fry thge offender ;o)

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to archive.
Message no. 16
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:30:10 -0600
Wordman's contribution to ShadowRN was:
/
/ Evil counter question: A mage's body is half-way through the ward, as the
/ elevator rises. The mage picks that moment to astrally perceive. This makes
/ him astrally active, but the "shape" of an aura syncronizes to the shape of
/ the mage. Thus, half the aura is on one side of the ward, then rest on the
/ other side. The elevator continues to rise. What happens?

Roll 1d6 to determine which of the following fates the mage is subject
to.

1-3: The Void. 4-6: Donjon.

:) Problem solved.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:28 +0200
According to Razor Girl, at 12:10 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> This would mean the elevator would stop moving because the focus hit a
> ward? An elevator that could lift 30 people of varibale weight stoped by
> an intangible ward and a medal sized focus? That could have some wild
> implications.

Yes, and here we havethe biggest problem with astral <-> physical
interaction in SR. The same problem came up with a FAB-filled net (when it
was still impossible to move through living objects on the astral plane) --
what happens if you drop a FAB-filled net over an astrally projecting
magician who is standing on natural ground? No, don't answer that. I meant
it. Look in the logs instead.

A solution to the focus problem would be to say that the focus always
makes it through, and the ward gets to make one attack against it.

Alternatively, resolve the whole attack-defense sequence until one of the
two is destroyed, and assume it takes place in the blink of an eye,
instead of in a normal turn sequence. The wearer of the focus would feel a
tug as the focus hits the ward, and a moment later either the ward gives
or the focus is toast.

--
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On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:29 +0200
According to Spike, at 22:24 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> |In this case, I'd say it's the ward that's the attacker, as its purpose is
> |to block astral movement.
>
> Ahhhh. But wards are passive. They only attack in self defence.
> It's the focus that's trying to get through it.

Yes, but foci also only defend themselves from attack... So in this case
we'd have two defenders and no attackers, which means there's a standoff
without anything actually happening. That's why I said I'd count the ward
as the attacker, since it is there to stop astral movement.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:22:47 -0500
> Evil counter question: A mage's body is half-way through the ward, as the
> elevator rises. The mage picks that moment to astrally perceive.
> This makes
> him astrally active, but the "shape" of an aura syncronizes to
> the shape of
> the mage. Thus, half the aura is on one side of the ward, then rest on the
> other side. The elevator continues to rise. What happens?
>
> Wordman
>

If you are the GM you control everything. It is simple either the character
perceive before the barrier or after the barrier.

Mike
Message no. 20
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:33:59 -0400
On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Wordman wrote:

->This question is addressed in the ShadowFAQ, question M14
->(http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html). The short answer is to look at
->page 101 of Awakenings, which answer this exact question.

AAAAARGH! Word, some of us don't HAVE Awakenings. ]:-)

->Evil counter question: A mage's body is half-way through the ward, as the
->elevator rises. The mage picks that moment to astrally perceive. This makes
->him astrally active, but the "shape" of an aura syncronizes to the shape of
->the mage. Thus, half the aura is on one side of the ward, then rest on the
->other side. The elevator continues to rise. What happens?

Who says the shape of the aura synchronizes with the mage? I'd
say where his head is, he is. In your example, he'd be on the inside of
the ward. Less fuss, and mess.... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 21
From: Mike Elkins <Mike_Elkins@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:23:00 -0400
<snip foci in elevator>
Isn't this similar to the description of cars passing through mana
barriers? Wouldn't then the aura of the elevator encompass the entire
area, thus allowing everyone in the elevator through, despite the foci?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:32:15 -0600
Mike Elkins's contribution to ShadowRN was:
/
/ <snip foci in elevator>
/ Isn't this similar to the description of cars passing through mana
/ barriers? Wouldn't then the aura of the elevator encompass the entire
/ area, thus allowing everyone in the elevator through, despite the foci?

Nice answer :)

But the problem can be recreated without an enclosed space.

You still have the problem of how to resolve an event in which an
active focus is physically forced through an astral ward.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 23
From: Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:17:36 PDT
>Mike Elkins's contribution to ShadowRN was:
>/
>/ <snip foci in elevator>
>/ Isn't this similar to the description of cars passing through mana
>/ barriers? Wouldn't then the aura of the elevator encompass the
entire
>/ area, thus allowing everyone in the elevator through, despite the
foci?
Does that mean that If I wear sealed armor, fire fighter suit or
biohazrd suit, my aura won't trip a ward? I don't think so. The ward is
an astral barrier that penetrates all non astral active objects that
makes up it's perimeter. You could have a ward in the center of a brick
wall, it would still stop astral objects. It would just be better hidden
than other wards. The elevator doesn't have an aura as much as it has a
shadow on the astral plane. Shadows can't do much but hide things.



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Message no. 24
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:42:50 -0700
:Evil counter question: A mage's body is half-way through the ward, as the
:elevator rises. The mage picks that moment to astrally perceive. This
makes
:him astrally active, but the "shape" of an aura syncronizes to the shape
of
:the mage. Thus, half the aura is on one side of the ward, then rest on
the
:other side. The elevator continues to rise. What happens?


He is already (part way) through the ward, so it does does not oppose
his motion. Nothing happens, except maybe the mage wets himself.

Mongoose
Message no. 25
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:21:45 -0400
Fixer screamed:
>On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, Wordman wrote:
>
>->This question is addressed in the ShadowFAQ, question M14
>->(http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html). The short answer is to look at
>->page 101 of Awakenings, which answer this exact question.
>
> AAAAARGH! Word, some of us don't HAVE Awakenings. ]:-)

The URL mentioned above reproduces the bit from Awakenings nearly verbatim.
Basically, it is a single opposed test. The key thing is the word "single".
This implies that it is resolved instantly, thus side-stepping the problem
of "what happens to the mage while the ward and foci are fighting".

Wordman
Message no. 26
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:30:24 -0500
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:17:36 PDT Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM> writes:
>>Mike Elkins's contribution to ShadowRN was:
>>/
>>/ <snip foci in elevator>
>>/ Isn't this similar to the description of cars passing through mana
>>/ barriers? Wouldn't then the aura of the elevator encompass theentire
>>/ area, thus allowing everyone in the elevator through, despite the
foci?

>Does that mean that If I wear sealed armor, fire fighter suit or
>biohazrd suit, my aura won't trip a ward? I don't think so. The ward is
>an astral barrier that penetrates all non astral active objects that
>makes up it's perimeter. You could have a ward in the center of a brick
>wall, it would still stop astral objects. It would just be better hidden
>than other wards. The elevator doesn't have an aura as much as it has a
>shadow on the astral plane. Shadows can't do much but hide things.

Nope. Your aura extends past worn items ... However, you could drive
through a ward with foci ablazin` IFF (If and only if) all the windows
are rolled up and there are no other openings. (ie, the car is
completely enclosed.

Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
through a ward?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:20:15 +0200
According to Razor Girl, at 12:17 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Does that mean that If I wear sealed armor, fire fighter suit or
> biohazrd suit, my aura won't trip a ward? I don't think so.
[snip]

I don't want to sound as if I'm telling you not to discuss this subject
anymore, but what we have here is what you normally get when you try to
get to the bottom of the SR rules, especially the ones concerning magic.
There is _always_ something that contradicts something else, and blanket
rulings are just about impossible to give for some things. Not many of you
will remember this, but think about how you would resolve a sustained,
area-effect damaging manpulation spell for a moment. And please don't
start a thread about it -- the best solution we reached several years ago
was to make up rules for them that apply only to the spell being designed,
not to all of them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:10:55 -0400
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

->Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
->through a ward?

Fixervote: Noperz.
I'd have to say that the spell (quickened or sustained) would be
astral and the ward would stop it's movement. (However, I do not believe
trying to move through a barrier constitutes an attack unless you are
attempting to RAM the barrier. Bear in mind, on the Astral, intentions
come across fairly easily so it would be easy for a ward to know whether
or not you were trying to 'attack' or not.)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 29
From: Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:06:33 PDT
>>Does that mean that If I wear sealed armor, fire fighter suit or
>>biohazard suit, my aura won't trip a ward? I don't think so. The ward
is
>>an astral barrier that penetrates all non astral active objects that
>>makes up it's perimeter. You could have a ward in the center of a
brick
>>wall, it would still stop astral objects. It would just be better
hidden
>>than other wards. The elevator doesn't have an aura as much as it has
a
>>shadow on the astral plane. Shadows can't do much but hide things.
>
>Nope. Your aura extends past worn items ... However, you could drive
>through a ward with foci ablazin` IFF (If and only if) all the windows
>are rolled up and there are no other openings. (ie, the car is
>completely enclosed.
>
<SNIP Question>
>D. Ghost
>(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
>
You keep forgetting that in SR3, non astrally active physical objects
have no real effect in the astral plane. They are simply shadows that
block astral perception. They do not impede any purely astrally active
item (no physical component) at all. Wards are cast on physical objects
only for the purposes of defining a boundary.

EXAMPLE
You could put four stakes in the ground and "hang" the ward on them. The
ward would fill the desired area, limited to the 50 cubic meters per
magic point of the ward's creator's. All the empty space around the
stakes perimeter would have an astral ward. This ward is only astrally
present, it in no way interferes with normal, mundane objects. That is
objects without an astral presence. (The only exception is the tingle
that some living things can feel when they have an astral object travel
through them.) The car in the above section is a mundane object. The
astral shadow of the car would pass through the ward like water through
a net. The astrally active item, creature or person would be caught like
so much fish.

What I believe you are thinking of is the SR2 rules of astral auras.
Those rules come up, in a slightly different form, in the rigging
section. If the target is inside an enclosed vehicle, and still visible
through windows, spells can be cast at them. (Except for damaging
manipulations. They act as ranged attacks with physical components and
thus physical objects obstruct them.) If the target is enclosed and
cannot be seen at all, no such luck with the spell. Visibility is the
key component, NOT vehicular auras.

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Message no. 30
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:41:06 -0400
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Razor Girl wrote:

<snip>
->EXAMPLE
->You could put four stakes in the ground and "hang" the ward on them. The
->ward would fill the desired area, limited to the 50 cubic meters per
->magic point of the ward's creator's. All the empty space around the
->stakes perimeter would have an astral ward. This ward is only astrally
->present, it in no way interferes with normal, mundane objects. That is
->objects without an astral presence. (The only exception is the tingle
->that some living things can feel when they have an astral object travel
->through them.) The car in the above section is a mundane object. The
->astral shadow of the car would pass through the ward like water through
->a net. The astrally active item, creature or person would be caught like
->so much fish.

What would happen if you pulled the stakes? Just a question that
popped into my mind. Would the ward remain if what it's 'hung' to is no
more?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 31
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:43:09 +0200
And so it came to happen that David Foster wrote in reply to Razor Girl:
----------
>
> <snip>
> ->EXAMPLE
> ->You could put four stakes in the ground and "hang" the ward on them.
The
> ->ward would fill the desired area, limited to the 50 cubic meters per
> ->magic point of the ward's creator's. All the empty space around the
> ->stakes perimeter would have an astral ward. This ward is only astrally
> ->present, it in no way interferes with normal, mundane objects. That is
> ->objects without an astral presence. (The only exception is the tingle
> ->that some living things can feel when they have an astral object travel
> ->through them.) The car in the above section is a mundane object. The
> ->astral shadow of the car would pass through the ward like water through
> ->a net. The astrally active item, creature or person would be caught
like
> ->so much fish.

The above mentioned part, the "tingle", does it realy mean you now can
actually move THROUGH living objects (if you can say object to any living
beeing)?
I really hope not, I do think the statement in SR 3rd. refers to a group of
people were an astral form passes more or less by. Am I right about this?

> What would happen if you pulled the stakes? Just a question that
> popped into my mind. Would the ward remain if what it's 'hung' to is no
> more?

Thats seems to be clear.
"A ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another direction."
(SR 3rd. 174, first column, WARDS)

You take the stakes, the ward has no physical "anchor", it disolves. End of
story. The meaning "cannot be moved" implies that if the physical component
is gone, so is the ward, although it is not explicitly written there. If
you are not to allowed to move a ward, but you do, then it's gone.
BTW, if we talked german here the above example would have been a lot
shorter.
;o)

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 32
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:18:17 -0700
:Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
:through a ward?


I think so; a spell is NOT an astral entity. They can NOT be
attacked, they can only be dispelled. Targeted spells pass through wards
just fine (assuming a good casting roll), so I think active (sustained)
spells would also. I recall no reference to any effect wards have on
sustained spells in SR3.

Mongoose
Message no. 33
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:54:39 -0400
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
>Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
>through a ward?

This is covered by the same ruling as a focus through a ward. The same bit
in Awakenings goes on to talk about bringing active spells through a ward. I
would consider the spell to be astrally both "outside" and "inside"
the
vehicle.

Wordman
Message no. 34
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:22:26 EDT
In a message dated 9/16/1998 3:13:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> :Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
> :through a ward?
>
>
> I think so; a spell is NOT an astral entity. They can NOT be
> attacked, they can only be dispelled. Targeted spells pass through wards
> just fine (assuming a good casting roll), so I think active (sustained)
> spells would also. I recall no reference to any effect wards have on
> sustained spells in SR3.

Oh now isn't this a strange question to ask. If this is true, then explain
the usefulness of Wards here folks. A Ward is preventive of all such actions
magical unless it is designed otherwise. You are now stating that it will
allow the passage of magic through it's boundary and into it's protected
interior.

-K
Message no. 35
From: Autonomous Zone <azone@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:23:28 -0500
> The above mentioned part, the "tingle", does it realy mean you now can
> actually move THROUGH living objects (if you can say object to any living
> beeing)?
> I really hope not, I do think the statement in SR 3rd. refers to a group of
> people were an astral form passes more or less by. Am I right about this?

Sorry, but you're mistaken. Astrally projecting magicians can pass through
living objects. SR3, p. 173: "Only astral forms can slow or affect another
astral form." Auras don't count as astral forms.

> > What would happen if you pulled the stakes? Just a question that
> > popped into my mind. Would the ward remain if what it's 'hung' to is no
>
> Thats seems to be clear.
> "A ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another direction."
> (SR 3rd. 174, first column, WARDS)

That last word should be "location" not "direction"

>
> You take the stakes, the ward has no physical "anchor", it disolves. End of
> story. The meaning "cannot be moved" implies that if the physical component
> is gone, so is the ward, although it is not explicitly written there. If
> you are not to allowed to move a ward, but you do, then it's gone.

Actually, the quote above means that if you cast a ward on one wall, you
can't at a later point move the ward to another wall. However, the gist of
your deduction is correct--if you destroy the physical component of the
ward, you destroy the ward.

Rob Boyle


--


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Message no. 36
From: Autonomous Zone <azone@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:34:45 -0500
> :Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
> :through a ward?
>
> I think so; a spell is NOT an astral entity. They can NOT be
> attacked, they can only be dispelled. Targeted spells pass through wards
> just fine (assuming a good casting roll), so I think active (sustained)
> spells would also. I recall no reference to any effect wards have on
> sustained spells in SR3.

Actually, you're wrong on several counts. First, wards are considered
astral barriers, and astral barriers are in fact dual (existing in both
the physical and the astral planes--p. 173, first line under Astral
barriers). That means something with a spell sustained on it would smack
into the ward (such as say, a levitated car). Second, "spells cast through
a [astral] barrier at a target on the other side add the Force of the
barrier to the target number of the spell" [p. 174, second paragraph under
astral barrier]. So targeted spells cast through wards do have a modifier.

Mongoose, you're slipping up! Not enough caffeine today? ;>

Rob Boyle



--


@*> AUTONOMOUS ZONE INFOSHOP | Anarchist-Community-Activist Resource Center
@*> street: 2012 W. Chicago Ave. | mail: 1573 N. Milwaukee #420 CHILL 60622
@*> phone: 773.252.6019 | http://www.neiu.edu/~aadams/azone.html <--NEW!
@*> azone@***.com or chill@****.ucsd.edu | Where the State Stops Life Begins!
Message no. 37
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:02:18 -0400
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Steadfast wrote:

->And so it came to happen that David Foster wrote in reply to Razor Girl:
->
->> What would happen if you pulled the stakes? Just a question that
->> popped into my mind. Would the ward remain if what it's 'hung' to is no
->> more?
->
->Thats seems to be clear.
->"A ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another direction."
->(SR 3rd. 174, first column, WARDS)
->
->You take the stakes, the ward has no physical "anchor", it disolves. End of
->story. The meaning "cannot be moved" implies that if the physical component
->is gone, so is the ward, although it is not explicitly written there. If
->you are not to allowed to move a ward, but you do, then it's gone.
->BTW, if we talked german here the above example would have been a lot
->shorter.

Ok, cool, so if a room is warded, and you take out a wall, the
ward for the room is no more. What, to use the above example, if a stake
was removed, but then replaced? Was the ward destroyed or merely
temporarily useless?
Reason I ask is, if you ward a room, then open the door, you've
changed the room (slightly) and disrupted the ward (because the door got
moved, and it's a part of the room). If you close the door again, could
the ward re-activate, thereby making it easier for magically active
critters (free spirits & dragons) to walk around normally. It's in that
big grey 'ward' area, so there might not be a canon answer, but this does
make a twisted kind of sense.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 38
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:12:26 -0400
>> :Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
>> :through a ward?
>>
>> I think so; a spell is NOT an astral entity. They can NOT be
>> attacked, they can only be dispelled. Targeted spells pass through wards
>> just fine (assuming a good casting roll), so I think active (sustained)
>> spells would also. I recall no reference to any effect wards have on
>> sustained spells in SR3.
>
>Actually, you're wrong on several counts. First, wards are considered
>astral barriers, and astral barriers are in fact dual (existing in both
>the physical and the astral planes--p. 173, first line under Astral
>barriers). That means something with a spell sustained on it would smack
>into the ward (such as say, a levitated car). Second, "spells cast through
>a [astral] barrier at a target on the other side add the Force of the
>barrier to the target number of the spell" [p. 174, second paragraph under
>astral barrier]. So targeted spells cast through wards do have a modifier.
>
>Mongoose, you're slipping up! Not enough caffeine today? ;>
>
>Rob Boyle

Am I also correct that "The creator of the {Astral} Barrier is unaffected
by it and can see or pass through it at will. The creator of a {Astral}
Barrier can allow other astral forms to see or pass through at will, if
desired."[p. 174 fisrt paragraph under Astral Barriers]

Hence if the caster of the levitate spell was also the creator of the
Astral Barrier the spell could pass thru unharmed/unmodified to either the
target (the car) or allow the caster and car on the same side to levitate
thru to the other.

-Lorden
Message no. 39
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:04:56 -0700
:> :Now here's an odd question: Can a flying car (via levitate spell) pass
:> :through a ward?
:>
:> I think so; a spell is NOT an astral entity. They can NOT be
:> attacked, they can only be dispelled. Targeted spells pass through
wards
:> just fine (assuming a good casting roll), so I think active (sustained)
:> spells would also. I recall no reference to any effect wards have on
:> sustained spells in SR3.
:
:Actually, you're wrong on several counts. First, wards are considered
:astral barriers, and astral barriers are in fact dual (existing in both
:the physical and the astral planes--p. 173, first line under Astral
:barriers). That means something with a spell sustained on it would smack
:into the ward (such as say, a levitated car).


Does this mean that wards must be scribed on some surface that has a
physical existance? I had not gotten that impression; in fact, I asked
Steve just such a quaestion, and got the impression that a ward COULD
cover, say, an open door or (as stated for hermetic circles) form a
"dome".
If they were physical, wouldn't they stop the passage of mundanes?
The ward itself, as far as I can tell, only affects astral beings.

:Second, "spells cast through
:a [astral] barrier at a target on the other side add the Force of the
:barrier to the target number of the spell" [p. 174, second paragraph
under
:astral barrier]. So targeted spells cast through wards do have a
modifier.

That's why I said "Targeted spells pass through wards just fine
(assuming a good casting roll)"- you have to beat that modifier. But if
you do, the spell DOES affect the target on the other side of the ward,
and the ward has no (direct) effect on the spell.

However, I can find no mechanism in SR3 whereby wards have a direct
effect on active (sutained) spells which "pass through" them because the
original target of said spell does.

:Mongoose, you're slipping up! Not enough caffeine today? ;>

Maybe, but niether of the references you give conclusively counter my
assertation that wards do NOT stop physical beings / objects with spells
sustained on them from passing through with those spells STILL on them.

As far as I can tell, if you want to stop a invisible (but purley
physical) mage from walking through your ward, you need some other form of
security; either a nice thick wall that the ward is drawn on, or some way
to spot and stop the guy. The ward can NOT attack the spell (nothing
can), or stop the (purely physical) person whom the spell is sustained on.

:Rob Boyle
Message no. 40
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:30:02 +0200
And so it came to happen that Mongoose wrote in reply to Rob Boyle:
---------------
<snip>
> Does this mean that wards must be scribed on some surface that has a
> physical existance? I had not gotten that impression; in fact, I asked
> Steve just such a quaestion, and got the impression that a ward COULD
> cover, say, an open door or (as stated for hermetic circles) form a
> "dome".

I do think the following. Hermetic circles/shamanstic lodges can Cover
anything the mage/shaman might wan't it to cover, as long as it is
a) a hemisphere (for hermetics)
b) any outer shape as long as a lodge is concerned. In the open the Lodge
would "behave similarly to the rules for hermetic circles; aka hemispheres
(for shamans).
(SR 3rd., page 174, 1st. column, 3rd. paragraph regarding ASTRAL
BARRIERS)

BUT:
"Such barriers are in fact dual natured, having both a physical and an
astral component. The physical component may consist of chalked,
painted or engraved runes _(hermetic circles)_, an actual
wall _(wards)_, or bead curtains, paranimal hides or any other
part of a shamanic lodge."
(SR 3rd., page 174, 1st. column, ASTRAL BARRIERS)

This implies that any of the aforementioned barriers _need_ a physical
Component. It also states which physical component is what, circles need
the good old mystical runes on them, wards seem to need a big physical
"ground" on which it can be done and shamanistic lodges can use anything
that comes handy. Not only this, later on in the same column, same page
under wards it is explicitly stated that
"A ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls, a vehicle, rocks and
so on)." (SR 3rd., page 174, 1st. column, WARDS)
But don't forget that hermetic circles only do act as a barrier when
"...it is used to do magic." (SR 3rd. page 174, 1st. column, 3rd. paragraph
regarding ASTRAL BARRIERS)
Seems that the lodgy-boys out there have there a little edge ;o).

> If they were physical, wouldn't they stop the passage of mundanes?
> The ward itself, as far as I can tell, only affects astral beings.

You are right about that. Wards and astral Barriers do _only_ effect astral
beeings.
"On the astral...They block movement and impose a visual penalty equal to
the barrier's Force." (SR 3rd., page 174, 1st. Column, middle)

<snipped>
> That's why I said "Targeted spells pass through wards just fine
> (assuming a good casting roll)"- you have to beat that modifier. But if
> you do, the spell DOES affect the target on the other side of the ward,
> and the ward has no (direct) effect on the spell.
>
> However, I can find no mechanism in SR3 whereby wards have a direct
> effect on active (sutained) spells which "pass through" them because the
> original target of said spell does.
>
> :Mongoose, you're slipping up! Not enough caffeine today? ;>
>
> Maybe, but niether of the references you give conclusively counter my
> assertation that wards do NOT stop physical beings / objects with spells
> sustained on them from passing through with those spells STILL on them.
>
> As far as I can tell, if you want to stop a invisible (but purley
> physical) mage from walking through your ward, you need some other form
of
> security; either a nice thick wall that the ward is drawn on, or some way
> to spot and stop the guy. The ward can NOT attack the spell (nothing
> can), or stop the (purely physical) person whom the spell is sustained
on.
<snip>

That is right. There is nothing I have found regarding that problem. Sounds
alot like the problem regarding active Foci and wards earlier in this
Thread. But it seems to me that it is quite wrong to assume that one can
walk happily smiling invisible through a ward/circle/lodge, whatever. Not
that I think you mean that. But there seems to be no answer right now.
We'll need to wait till MitS. Hopefully they will cover that.
BTW, what else do we think will MitS cover? How to get to the Stuffer Shack
and buy some SoyBurger?
;o)

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 41
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:51:55 -0400
>> > What would happen if you pulled the stakes? Just a question that
>> > popped into my mind. Would the ward remain if what it's 'hung' to is no
>>
>> Thats seems to be clear.
>> "A ward cannot be moved from its physical component to another
direction."
>> (SR 3rd. 174, first column, WARDS)
>
>That last word should be "location" not "direction"
>
>>
>> You take the stakes, the ward has no physical "anchor", it disolves.
End of
>> story. The meaning "cannot be moved" implies that if the physical
component
>> is gone, so is the ward, although it is not explicitly written there. If
>> you are not to allowed to move a ward, but you do, then it's gone.
>
>Actually, the quote above means that if you cast a ward on one wall, you
>can't at a later point move the ward to another wall. However, the gist of
>your deduction is correct--if you destroy the physical component of the
>ward, you destroy the ward.
>
>Rob Boyle

This raises one issue, I'd like clarified. " A ward must be placed
on a non-living thing (wall, a vehicle, rock and so on). A ward cannot
be moved from its physical component to another location."[SR3 pg 174, 2nd
paragrah under Wards.]

A ward is placed on a vehicle. Then the vehicle moves to another location
is the ward intact?

If the answer is that it's intact then does it follow that you
could: take 6 prefab walls and place a ward on each. total of 6 wards.
Then place the prefab walls so they form a room and have the room protected.

Lorden
Message no. 42
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:11:50 +1000
Lorden writes:
> This raises one issue, I'd like clarified. " A ward must be placed
> on a non-living thing (wall, a vehicle, rock and so on). A ward cannot
> be moved from its physical component to another location."[SR3 pg 174, 2nd
> paragrah under Wards.]
>
> A ward is placed on a vehicle. Then the vehicle moves to another location
> is the ward intact?
>
> If the answer is that it's intact then does it follow that you
> could: take 6 prefab walls and place a ward on each. total of 6 wards.
> Then place the prefab walls so they form a room and have the room
> protected.

I would say yes, to both. The physical component is still intact, it has
just been shifted without otherwise being disturbed.

OTH, you can't put the ward on the car, roll the car into the garage, and
then move the ward to the garage door. (Not even by running into the garage
door. ;)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 43
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:27:13 -0400
> Does this mean that wards must be scribed on some surface that has a
>physical existance? I had not gotten that impression; in fact, I asked
>Steve just such a quaestion, and got the impression that a ward COULD
>cover, say, an open door or (as stated for hermetic circles) form a
>"dome".

Yes, but the rule means that the _door_ has to be phsyical. A ward covers a
_volume_, not an area. Since it is impossible to inscribe on every part of a
volume, I assume the rule to mean that the _outline_ of the ward must be
inscribed on physical objects. I'd further guess that you only need to
inscribe a circle in two dimensions, and that would define a spherical ward
with the circle as is "equator".

> However, I can find no mechanism in SR3 whereby wards have a direct
>effect on active (sutained) spells which "pass through" them because the
>original target of said spell does.

In SR3, no it isn't covered; however, this is spelled out very clearly in
Awakenings (pg 101). Single opposed test between spell Force and Ward
rating. If the spell wins, it passes through. If the ward wins, the spell is
destroyed. Ties go to the ward. One would assume that this ruling will be
put into the new magic book as well.

Wordman
Message no. 44
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:44:41 -0700
:> However, I can find no mechanism in SR3 whereby wards have a direct
:>effect on active (sutained) spells which "pass through" them because the
:>original target of said spell does.
:
:In SR3, no it isn't covered; however, this is spelled out very clearly in
:Awakenings (pg 101). Single opposed test between spell Force and Ward
:rating. If the spell wins, it passes through. If the ward wins, the spell
is
:destroyed. Ties go to the ward. One would assume that this ruling will be
:put into the new magic book as well.
:
:Wordman
:

Actually, one would assume, it being a very common situation, that
such a rule would appear with the basic description of wards. As it
stands, wards are fairly hard to use without a lot of GM adjudication as
to their actual effect. I like the new ward rules better than the old,
but they could have covered all of the common instances of wards in
action, rather than just a few. :\
And yes, I believe the above is the intended effect for both the
"sustained spell" situation and the "carried focus" situation; In any
case, Rob said that's how HE would do it in our games, and it makes sense
to me. A focus would not be permanently killed, just temporarily
suppressed as per SR3 astral combat.
Uncertain was wether this woul alert the owner of the ward; we decided
yes for the focus, since it was a type of astral combat, but no for the
spell, since those CAN'T engage in astral combat and because casting a
spell across a ward does not alert its owner.

Did I get that right, Rob?

Mongoose
Message no. 45
From: Autonomous Zone <azone@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:05:35 -0500
> :> However, I can find no mechanism in SR3 whereby wards have a direct
> :>effect on active (sutained) spells which "pass through" them because
the
> :>original target of said spell does.

Yep, you're right. Another "implied" thing. Something on this will likely
appear in MITS.

> And yes, I believe the above is the intended effect for both the
> "sustained spell" situation and the "carried focus" situation; In
any
> case, Rob said that's how HE would do it in our games, and it makes sense
> to me. A focus would not be permanently killed, just temporarily
> suppressed as per SR3 astral combat.
> Uncertain was wether this woul alert the owner of the ward; we decided
> yes for the focus, since it was a type of astral combat, but no for the
> spell, since those CAN'T engage in astral combat and because casting a
> spell across a ward does not alert its owner.
> Did I get that right, Rob?

That's how I would run it, yes.

Rob Boyle


--


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@*> street: 2012 W. Chicago Ave. | mail: 1573 N. Milwaukee #420 CHILL 60622
@*> phone: 773.252.6019 | http://www.neiu.edu/~aadams/azone.html <--NEW!
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Message no. 46
From: Autonomous Zone <azone@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:15:50 -0500
> This raises one issue, I'd like clarified. " A ward must be placed
> on a non-living thing (wall, a vehicle, rock and so on). A ward cannot
> be moved from its physical component to another location."[SR3 pg 174, 2nd
> paragrah under Wards.]
>
> A ward is placed on a vehicle. Then the vehicle moves to another location
> is the ward intact?

Yup.

> If the answer is that it's intact then does it follow that you
> could: take 6 prefab walls and place a ward on each. total of 6 wards.
> Then place the prefab walls so they form a room and have the room protected.

I don't see why not. Not a bad idea, actually.

Rob Boyle

--


@*> AUTONOMOUS ZONE INFOSHOP | Anarchist-Community-Activist Resource Center
@*> street: 2012 W. Chicago Ave. | mail: 1573 N. Milwaukee #420 CHILL 60622
@*> phone: 773.252.6019 | http://www.neiu.edu/~aadams/azone.html <--NEW!
@*> azone@***.com or chill@****.ucsd.edu | Where the State Stops Life Begins!
Message no. 47
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:44:17 EDT
In a message dated 9/18/1998 9:17:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
azone@***.COM writes:

> A ward is placed on a vehicle. Then the vehicle moves to another location
> > is the ward intact?
>
> Yup.
>
> > If the answer is that it's intact then does it follow that you
> > could: take 6 prefab walls and place a ward on each. total of 6 wards.
> > Then place the prefab walls so they form a room and have the room
> protected.
>
> I don't see why not. Not a bad idea, actually.
>
I just thought I might mention that Mr. Kenson does not agree with here on the
concept of a "moveable ward", like the one proposed being placed upon a
vehicle for instance. At least, he didn't when we (Mike B. and I) spoke with
him on the topic. I for one do agree, and think it would interesting. And
the rules for Ramming are even usable to a certain extent to clarify any
immediate problems with "ramming a being with a ward."

-K
Message no. 48
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Question regarding wards
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:58:51 -0400
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, K in the Shadows wrote:

->I just thought I might mention that Mr. Kenson does not agree with here on the
->concept of a "moveable ward", like the one proposed being placed upon a
->vehicle for instance. At least, he didn't when we (Mike B. and I) spoke with
->him on the topic. I for one do agree, and think it would interesting. And
->the rules for Ramming are even usable to a certain extent to clarify any
->immediate problems with "ramming a being with a ward."

Actually, to prevent abuse of the ramming a being with a ward
problem, I'd simply say that the aura of the individual flows AROUND the
ward. If the ward stops in the exact location of the astral individual,
they simply get displaced to the nearest location outside the ward.
Either that or have the ward dissapate while the ward is moving
and reform when it stops at a rate of one Force point per minute. Thereby
preventing any sort of "ramming" with any ward.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

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