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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 02:55:08 2001
I like the Knowledge skills in SR3, but there are several things that bug
me, that were probably covered when it came out, but I'm new to the list.

Armed Combat and Firearms were replaced by what used to be the
Concentrations, and Specialization pretty much disappeared. Yet, Projectile
Weapons, Thrown, and Heavy Weapons remain as they were (cf. Weapon
Specialist p80). Etiqutte is allowable as a General skill.

Were so many people increasing Armed and Firearms so that that was
necessary?

Isn't Etiquette as a General skill a pretty weird thing?

I miss the Theory Skills as limits, like Magic Theory and Computer Theory.

The One Thing I really wanted SR3 to fix though, is Athletics. The
definition is always too broad (p87). Does anyone limit it to where it is
only Run, Jump, Climb, and Lift? Being able to be an Escape Artist, Swim,
and play every sport is quite an achievement. When I started the campaign I
had just read Cannon Campanion, and worked it like Martial Arts, where for
every 2 level of Athletics they knew how to do 1 thing. If they try
something not on their list, they have a +4 modifier (+2 if it is close to
one, usually part of a sport). For 2 karma they can add an item to the list
Without increasing the overall Athletics rating. I'd really like to know
what other people use, or if it hasn't posed a problem.

On an aside note, what was the most amusing Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
you've seen a player use?

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 04:00:01 2001
--- Dan Turek <danturek@*******.com> wrote:
> On an aside note, what was the most amusing
> Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
> you've seen a player use?

Kama Shutra 6 and an effective charisma of 13.

====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 07:50:01 2001
Records show that at 16:52 on Friday 12/10/01, Dan Turek scribbled:
>Isn't Etiquette as a General skill a pretty weird thing?

Works for me. You see this type of skill/talent in real life where some
people are just really good with people. It doesn't matter where they are,
which circle they find themselves in, they still excel at saying the right
thing, doing the right thing, and so on. And the converse is also true.

>I miss the Theory Skills as limits, like Magic Theory and Computer Theory.

Limits imposed by Knowledge Skill ratings are still there e.g. the maximum
Force to which a character can design a spell is equal to his Spell Design
Knowledge Skill, and a character's Computer (Programming) skill level
limits the Ratings of the program he can write.

>The One Thing I really wanted SR3 to fix though, is Athletics. The
>definition is always too broad (p87). Does anyone limit it to where it is
>only Run, Jump, Climb, and Lift? Being able to be an Escape Artist, Swim,
>and play every sport is quite an achievement. When I started the campaign I
>had just read Cannon Campanion, and worked it like Martial Arts, where for
>every 2 level of Athletics they knew how to do 1 thing. If they try
>something not on their list, they have a +4 modifier (+2 if it is close to
>one, usually part of a sport). For 2 karma they can add an item to the list
>Without increasing the overall Athletics rating. I'd really like to know
>what other people use, or if it hasn't posed a problem.

I use a house rule where, in addition to all the base athletic abilities
you mention, the players can choose to know a range of advanced athletic
subskills (e.g. swimming, parallel bars, swinging a bat, etc.) equal in
number to their Athletic skill rating. Else they default to Athletics at
+2. On the other hand, most sports we define as Knowledge Skills, and are
played using Athletics with the appropriate Knowledge Skill as complimentary.

>On an aside note, what was the most amusing Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
>you've seen a player use?

The orc thug in our group loves dragging off candidates for interrogation
to convenient locations using the Knowledge Skill "Places Where Screams
Will Not Be Heard". :-)

Chris
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (GreyWolf)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 07:55:10 2001
> --- Dan Turek <danturek@*******.com> wrote:
> > On an aside note, what was the most amusing
> > Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
> > you've seen a player use?
>
> Kama Shutra 6 and an effective charisma of 13.

Gee, that sounds like one of my characters. Except she had an effective
charisma of 16. (It was a high power campaign).

GreyWolf
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Aaron Binns)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 08:00:02 2001
> The One Thing I really wanted SR3 to fix though, is Athletics. The
> definition is always too broad (p87). Does anyone limit it to where it is
> only Run, Jump, Climb, and Lift? Being able to be an Escape Artist, Swim,
> and play every sport is quite an achievement. When I started the campaign
I
> had just read Cannon Campanion, and worked it like Martial Arts, where for
> every 2 level of Athletics they knew how to do 1 thing. If they try
> something not on their list, they have a +4 modifier (+2 if it is close to
> one, usually part of a sport). For 2 karma they can add an item to the
list
> Without increasing the overall Athletics rating. I'd really like to know
> what other people use, or if it hasn't posed a problem.

Sunds reasonable. I might not play with the rules too much with the new
players I am fielding right now, but on the whole, the athletics skill is a
pretty broad one (especially when an intiaited adept can center for the
entire skill after level 1 initiation).

> On an aside note, what was the most amusing Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
> you've seen a player use?

A werewolf dog shaman shapeshifter with the knowledge and active skills
(respectively) "Puppy love" and "Gettin' jiggy wit' it!". She (yeah a
female
character & player) was a strange one... :)
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 10:35:01 2001
According to Chris Maxfield, on Fri, 12 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Works for me. You see this type of skill/talent in real life where some
> people are just really good with people. It doesn't matter where they
> are, which circle they find themselves in, they still excel at saying the
> right thing, doing the right thing, and so on.

Charisma 6 and all the concentrations would also represent this, under SRII
rules. In SR3, you could require a specialization if you want to stick to the
old way of doing things.

> And the converse is also true.

Which'd be Charisma 1 or 2 and no Etiquette at all.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 20:40:00 2001
In a message dated 10/12/01 2:56:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
danturek@*******.com writes:

> The One Thing I really wanted SR3 to fix though, is Athletics.

As a house rule, another person mentioned back in SR2 that they eliminated
the main skill, and just used the old concentrations as skills, making
adjustment's to the skill points and costs.

My problem with SR3, is Aura Reading. It's the only active skill that can
only be used as a complimentary skill. It should really be a knowledge skill.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 22:15:01 2001
Records show that at 10:40 on Saturday 13/10/01, Schizi@***.com scribbled:

>My problem with SR3, is Aura Reading. It's the only active skill that can
>only be used as a complimentary skill. It should really be a knowledge skill.

Other Active Skills can be used as Complimentary Skills. For example, SR3
states that tests with B/R Skills can use the corresponding Active Skill as
complimentary, and the Electronics Skill can be used as a Complimentary
Skill in a very large number off situations.

Chris
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 23:15:05 2001
In a message dated 10/12/01 10:19:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cmaxfiel@****.org.au writes:

> >My problem with SR3, is Aura Reading. It's the only active skill that can
> >only be used as a complimentary skill. It should really be a knowledge
> skill.
>
> Other Active Skills can be used as Complimentary Skills. For example, SR3
> states that tests with B/R Skills can use the corresponding Active Skill
as
> complimentary, and the Electronics Skill can be used as a Complimentary
> Skill in a very large number off situations.
>

Sure, but Aura Reading has no "normal" roll. As it's presented, it's ONLY a
complimentary skill.
While I use it under different circumstances straight up, the book presents
it as complimentary only.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 12 23:45:01 2001
Records show that at 13:15 on Saturday 13/10/01, Schizi@***.com scribbled:
>Sure, but Aura Reading has no "normal" roll. As it's presented, it's ONLY a
>complimentary skill.
>While I use it under different circumstances straight up, the book presents
>it as complimentary only.

It has a "normal" roll defined in MITS (p21) where an Aura Reading Test on
an adept's aura gains the aura reader insight into the powers, and the
levels of these powers, possessed by the adept.

On the other hand, I do feel somewhat the same way you do which is why I
clarified the Aura Reading skill in our house rules to make it more "active".

Chris
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Sat Oct 13 00:25:01 2001
>My problem with SR3, is Aura Reading. It's the only active skill that can
>only be used as a complimentary skill. It should really be a knowledge
skill.

Cyberzombies use it as an active skill. They roll Aura Reading dice for
astral perception tests, or default to Intellegence.
I think its an active skill because you are simply assesing the situation.
You don't necesarily know what the information you gain means, especially if
you rolled poorly, which would be where knowledge skills come into the
picture.

-Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Euphonium)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Sat Oct 13 09:45:00 2001
> > On an aside note, what was the most amusing Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
> > you've seen a player use?


At the start of my campaign we had a Troll Street Sam who learned the
following....
Winning Smile 5
Lecherous Grin 3
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Mon Oct 15 20:15:01 2001
Schizi said:1
>My problem with SR3, is Aura Reading. It's the only active skill that can
>only be used as a complimentary skill. It should really be a knowledge
>skill.

Well, reading auras is quite usefull by itself. My players use it a lot to
gather info on anyone they meet.:)

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim



_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Tue Oct 16 05:15:01 2001
Records show that at 10:16 on Tuesday 16/10/01, Wallace Blade scribbled:
>Well, reading auras is quite usefull by itself. My players use it a lot to
>gather info on anyone they meet.:)

This, however, does not require the Aura Reading skill. It is an Assensing
Test using Intelligence. The Aura Reading skill is only complimentary for
this test, though still valuable for this reason.

Chris
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Tue Oct 16 07:15:01 2001
Dan Turek writes:

> Were so many people increasing Armed and Firearms so that that was
> necessary?

Well, I think that with a primary focus of the game being "blowing things
away with cool guns" (or at least one of the primary foci of many players
;-)), something had to be done, yeah.

> Isn't Etiquette as a General skill a pretty weird thing?

I rather feel this, too. OTOH, it does help in taking the focus away from
"cool guns" and increases the likelihood of people playing Face type
characters.

> I miss the Theory Skills as limits, like Magic Theory and Computer Theory.

Huhn?

> The One Thing I really wanted SR3 to fix though, is Athletics. The
> definition is always too broad (p87). Does anyone limit it to where it is
> only Run, Jump, Climb, and Lift? Being able to be an Escape Artist, Swim,
> and play every sport is quite an achievement. When I started the campaign I
> had just read Cannon Campanion, and worked it like Martial Arts, where for
> every 2 level of Athletics they knew how to do 1 thing. If they try
> something not on their list, they have a +4 modifier (+2 if it is close to
> one, usually part of a sport). For 2 karma they can add an item to the list
> Without increasing the overall Athletics rating. I'd really like to know
> what other people use, or if it hasn't posed a problem.

It sounds quite reasonable to me - rather well thought out.

We, too, found this a problem. I have a house rule that introduces a skill
type called "Limiting Skills". This rule is also used with a number of other
skill problems that we've encountered. In short, a Limiting Skill is a
Knowledge Skill that directly affects the way another skill can be used. An
example is Snow Skiing. When making a Snow Skiing Skill Test, a character
rolls his or her Athletics skill, but the number of dice that can be rolled
is limited by their Snow Skiing Limiting skill. Being an athletic individual
is vital to skiing well, but so too is a knowledge of how to ski properly. I
can forward a copy of the house rule if anyone's interested.

> On an aside note, what was the most amusing Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
> you've seen a player use?

Actually use? That's a difficult one. I've seen some pretty way out
Knowledge skills in my time, but many of them were so way out that they
never got actually used.

One of the old classics, back from SRII where you had to actually spend
Karma on all skills, were the "Look 'Ard" and "Strut" skills that one
particular player spent many a Karma point on and used quite often if
encountering gangers or entering bars.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Tue Oct 16 10:10:00 2001
Records show that at 21:11 on Tuesday 16/10/01, Damion Milliken scribbled:
>We, too, found this a problem. I have a house rule that introduces a skill
>type called "Limiting Skills". This rule is also used with a number of
other
>skill problems that we've encountered. In short, a Limiting Skill is a
>Knowledge Skill that directly affects the way another skill can be used. An
>example is Snow Skiing. When making a Snow Skiing Skill Test, a character
>rolls his or her Athletics skill, but the number of dice that can be rolled
>is limited by their Snow Skiing Limiting skill. Being an athletic individual
>is vital to skiing well, but so too is a knowledge of how to ski properly. I
>can forward a copy of the house rule if anyone's interested.

Is this similar to the way Centering and Divination work where linked
knowledge skills are required to use these metamagics and the ratings of
the linked knowledge skills limit the use of the metamagics? Was that your
inspiration? :-)

Chris
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Tue Oct 16 17:50:01 2001
Chris said:
>This, however, does not require the Aura Reading skill. It is an Assensing
>Test using Intelligence. The Aura Reading skill is only complimentary for
>this test, though still valuable for this reason.

Sure? Damn! I guess that I have just made a new house rule! jajaja. :)

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Tue Oct 16 19:05:00 2001
Records show that at 07:48 on Wednesday 17/10/01, Wallace Blade scribbled:
>>This, however, does not require the Aura Reading skill. It is an Assensing
>>Test using Intelligence. The Aura Reading skill is only complimentary for
>>this test, though still valuable for this reason.
>
>Sure? Damn! I guess that I have just made a new house rule! jajaja. :)

:-) 'Fraid so. See the Assensing rules, p171 SR3.
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Tue Oct 16 23:35:01 2001
> Cyberzombies use it as an active skill. They roll
Aura Reading dice for astral perception tests, or
default to Intellegence.

That's a crap-ass reason for making it an active
skill, Mongoose.

See any cyberzombies around here? No?

> I think its an active skill because you are simply
assesing the situation. You don't necesarily know what
the information you gain means, especially if you
rolled poorly, which would be where knowledge skills
come into the picture.
> -Mongoose

Which is not a bad explanation, but I think what
Schizi's complaining about (and what I'd be
complaining about) is that you have skill that for
99.999% of the population, 99.999% of the time, can
only be used as a complementary skill (more than
halving its effectiveness compared to other active
skills on a success comparison basis) that is still
considered an active skill and still costs more than
any knowledge skill.

In a logical way, it fits. In a game balance/mechanics
way, it sucks the big one. And there are a hell of a
lot of places in the SR rules where logic has given
way to balance, so why not here?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
Nokia Game is on again.
Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new
all media adventure before November 3rd.
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 01:40:00 2001
> Which is not a bad explanation, but I think what
> Schizi's complaining about (and what I'd be
> complaining about) is that you have skill that for
> 99.999% of the population, 99.999% of the time, can
> only be used as a complementary skill (more than
> halving its effectiveness compared to other active
> skills on a success comparison basis) that is still
> considered an active skill and still costs more than
> any knowledge skill.
>

I might have missed something in this long debate but if I judge this part
of your post right you're basing Aura Reading as a skill available to anyone
when in fact it's like Sorcery and Conjuring. Available only to awakened
characters which DO NOT make up 99.999% of the population (though by the
number of players that enjoy mages/adept you'd swear it was
commonplace -it's not)

Sorry if I missed something but just let me explain:

As a street sam investigating why a warehouse is now a charred ruin you'd
use knowledge skills to determine the cause, start point etc. IF it were a
bomb related disaster you'd find pieces.

Magic however doesn't leave any tangible physical elements to trace it back
hence you have Aura Reading which allows mages to gauge the power and type
of magic used as well as trace the caster by his or her signature. However
like casting a spell it's not recalling the exact same knowledge (each mages
signature I would assume differs) so each time you sense the
signatures/auras of magic you have to actively find, seperate, read and
analyze them.

Again sorry if I missed something in the debate it just appeared to me that
Aura Reading was being counted amongst the normal skills where-as like
Conjuring and sorcery it is only available to awakened characters. If I'm
totally off base just ignore me ;)
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan Choy)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 01:50:01 2001
On Wednesday 17 October 2001 01:38, Jonathan (just not me) wrote:

> Again sorry if I missed something in the debate it just appeared to me that
> Aura Reading was being counted amongst the normal skills where-as like
> Conjuring and sorcery it is only available to awakened characters. If I'm
> totally off base just ignore me ;)

Actually, I seem to recall that Conjuring, Sorcery, and Enchanting (and by
extension, Aura Reading) can all be taken by mundanes/sleepers/whatever -
they just only work as knowledge skills for them, because they have an actual
and effective Magic Rating of 0... You can learn HOW to conjure - you just
can't actually do it. You have the mechanical knowledge, but can't shape the
mana, or see the astral (which is why any kind of Aura Reading test without
Astral Perception to SEE the aura is, well, a no way no how in my campaign).
I think that this was in Grimoire II, IIRC. If I wasn't in the middle of
something I'd go dig.

Tetsujin no Oni
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 03:05:04 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> I might have missed something in this long debate
but if I judge this part of your post right you're
basing Aura Reading as a skill available to anyone
when in fact it's like Sorcery and Conjuring.
Available only to awakened characters which DO NOT
make up 99.999% of the population (though by the
number of players that enjoy mages/adept you'd swear
it was commonplace -it's not)
<snipt!(TM)>

No, Jonathan, what I was comparing was the relative
population of people who can use this (anyone who's
awakened) to the population of cyberzombies. Sorry, it
probably didn't come out right.

Still, the point stands. If cyberzombies are the only
characters who'll ever use Aura Reading as a proper
active skill, and most GMs would never even consider
allowing a cyberzombie player character, why is Aura
Reading considered an active skill?

What, you think mages don't already have enough things
that soak up their karma (and cash if you want foci,
or play a hermetic mage) that they need to be shafted
here, too?

This is my complaint. Feel free to disagree. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
Nokia Game is on again.
Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new
all media adventure before November 3rd.
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 03:40:01 2001
> No, Jonathan, what I was comparing was the relative
> population of people who can use this (anyone who's
> awakened) to the population of cyberzombies. Sorry, it
> probably didn't come out right.
>

Ah ok then thought the comparison was people who could use aura reading to
those who couldn't ;)

> Still, the point stands. If cyberzombies are the only
> characters who'll ever use Aura Reading as a proper
> active skill, and most GMs would never even consider
> allowing a cyberzombie player character, why is Aura
> Reading considered an active skill?
>

Actually mages use aura reading as a proper active skill.

Why is ettiquette considered an active skill? This line of questioning just
leads to you questioning the foundations of why FASA originally chose any of
the skills to be active :)

> What, you think mages don't already have enough things
> that soak up their karma (and cash if you want foci,
> or play a hermetic mage) that they need to be shafted
> here, too?
>

hehehe god forbid a skill cost karma to learn! ;)

It's pure strategy I tells ya! ;)

> This is my complaint. Feel free to disagree. :)
>

I think I did ;)
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 04:15:01 2001
On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> See any cyberzombies around here? No?
>

altogether now boys and girls..."He's Behind You!"
..if you dont get this, my apologies, you havent been exposed to enough
Pantomimes. lucky you.

--
john@*****.net
Debi Newberry: You're a psychopath.
Martin Blank: No, no. Psychopaths kill for no reason.
I kill for *money*. It's a *job*. That didn't come out right.
- Gross Point Blank
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 04:40:01 2001
> Actually mages use aura reading as a proper active
skill.

When?

Aura Reading is treated as a complementary skill when
reading auras 99% of the time, not as a full active
skill, where the skill is all that's used (or is used
as the base, with other skills added as complementary
skills).

> Why is ettiquette considered an active skill? This
line of questioning just leads to you questioning the
foundations of why FASA originally chose any of the
skills to be active :)

Not in a game mechanics fashion. In a logical fashion,
it's all up in the air. You can make arguments for or
against anything. In a game mechanics fashion, if you
pay the same amount for a skill, it should be treated
the same way. Is that unreasonable?

> hehehe god forbid a skill cost karma to learn! ;)
>
> It's pure strategy I tells ya! ;)

Bastard. ;)

No, that's not what I mean, Jonathan. I mean, all
skills cost karma. But knowledge skills, which are
used as complementary skills more often than active
skills are (and even they can function as the base
skill in a situation where you're testing your
knowledge rather than your abilities) always cost less
to improve than active skills of the same level (if
the linked attributes are equivalent, too). So why
does Aura Reading cost as much as an active skill when
each rating point does less for you than any other
skill?

Sorry, it's hard to express, but look at it this way.
Aura Reading 6 can get you, at most, 3 successes,
because (as a complementary skill) all successes are
halved. And you already have to have rolled at least
one success on your assensing test to even have a
chance to use Aura Reading.

Assault Rifles 6 (for example), on the other hand, can
give you up to 6 successes.

Yet they both cost the same to purchase.

How do you justify that?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new
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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 05:20:00 2001
According to Jonathan Choy, on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Actually, I seem to recall that Conjuring, Sorcery, and Enchanting (and
> by extension, Aura Reading) can all be taken by
> mundanes/sleepers/whatever - they just only work as knowledge skills for
> them, because they have an actual and effective Magic Rating of 0...

That was only true in SR1 and SRII, but because of the split between active
and knowledge skills in SR3, mundanes cannot take these skills anymore.
They'd have to take the corresponding background knowledge skill(s) to gain
that knowledge without the actual ability to do magic.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 05:20:11 2001
> How do you justify that?
>

Simple. No one is saying it HAS to be used as a complementary skill. The
book says it CAN be used as such but from my POV no where does it say it is
limited to such, hence used on its own you are entiled to the full benefit
not half.

I guess its all in the wording, to me when it says it can be used as such
and such doesn't mean that's it's only function. :)


And yes I'm a bastard :)
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 09:00:01 2001
> > How do you justify that?
>
> Simple. No one is saying it HAS to be used as a
complementary skill. The book says it CAN be used as
such but from my POV no where does it say it is
limited to such, hence used on its own you are entiled
to the full benefit not half.
>
> I guess its all in the wording, to me when it says
it can be used as such and such doesn't mean that's
it's only function. :)
>
> And yes I'm a bastard :)

Okay, fine.

HOW do you use it to its full benefit?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 12:05:03 2001
> HOW do you use it to its full benefit?
>

Typical mage wants to trace the signature of a spell/spirit. Mundanes cannot
go astral to do this so assessing with the naked eye is useless your only
course is to do an aura reading. :)

And yes it seems specialized but then again so is sorcery and conjuring ;)
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 14:45:03 2001
In a message dated 10/17/01 1:44:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jhogan@**********.nf.net writes:

> Magic however doesn't leave any tangible physical elements to trace it back
> hence you have Aura Reading which allows mages to gauge the power and type
> of magic used as well as trace the caster by his or her signature. However
> like casting a spell it's not recalling the exact same knowledge (each
mages
> signature I would assume differs) so each time you sense the
> signatures/auras of magic you have to actively find, seperate, read and
> analyze them.

But, in usefulness, it's still only a half-skill, regardless of the reasoning
behind it.

In teh last game I started up, I was tossing around the idea of either making
Aura tests to require Aura Reading (you can default to intel at the usual
penalty) or just making aura reading a knowledge skill. I ended up changing
it to a knowledge skill which keeps most of the mechanics the same.

In the longer running game, I've made the skill itself useful in other
situations, makiong it more akin to a deeper reading of the aura than the
simple practice of the peripheral scan. This only really matters since I have
artifacts where such a skill can be used. (Such as items that Mask their
aura.)
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 14:50:02 2001
In a message dated 10/17/01 3:14:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Still, the point stands. If cyberzombies are the only
> characters who'll ever use Aura Reading as a proper
> active skill, and most GMs would never even consider
> allowing a cyberzombie player character, why is Aura
> Reading considered an active skill?

Also note, there are no cyberzombies at all in the BBB. That use was added
later anyway :-)
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 14:50:04 2001
In a message dated 10/17/01 3:56:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jhogan@**********.nf.net writes:

>
> Actually mages use aura reading as a proper active skill.
>
> Why is ettiquette considered an active skill? This line of questioning just
> leads to you questioning the foundations of why FASA originally chose any
of
> the skills to be active :)

Well, what if every time you rolled Etiquette, you actually rolled Charisma,
with Eti as a complimentary roll? But, you don't, you roll it as a straight
skill. Aura reading is only a complimentary skill. (heck, even most knowledge
skills are still useful as more than a complimentary skill)
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 14:55:02 2001
In a message dated 10/17/01 12:09:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jhogan@**********.nf.net writes:

>
> Typical mage wants to trace the signature of a spell/spirit. Mundanes
cannot
> go astral to do this so assessing with the naked eye is useless your only
> course is to do an aura reading. :)
>
> And yes it seems specialized but then again so is sorcery and conjuring ;)

But, if he assenses/ reads the aura, he rolls intel, he doesn't roll aura
reading.

If he has aura reading, it's as a complimentary skill not as a replacement
for intel.
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 15:30:01 2001
> But, if he assenses/ reads the aura, he rolls intel, he doesn't roll aura
> reading.
>
> If he has aura reading, it's as a complimentary skill not as a replacement
> for intel.
>

Unfortunately I think I see a loop hole in your logic. If to read auras all
you rolled was intelligence anyone, awakened or not, could see them since
everyone has intelligence.

Aura reading is NOT just a complimentary skill. You cannot read
auras/signatures without it. Just like Conjuring, can a magician without
conjuring summon spirits? Not talking about using an outside force that
would allow him to use powers he normally does not have. If you gave an
aspect magician some summoning materials could he/she conjure a
spirit/elemental/etc.

No he wouldn't. He could read the books, he could follow instructions but he
just doesn't have the skill it takes to conjure. Undertanding the principles
behind a skill and actually being able to perform it are two very different
things.

Now apply this to aura reading, you have the intelligence to know something
is there. You can't see it, taste it, or generally perceive it on any of
your senses. Since no signature is exactly alike you cannot learn typical
signatures and identifiers since each depends on the situation. Can you
default back to your intelligence to read something you can't percieve?

Explain Green to a blind man. You'd have an easier time.
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 21:45:01 2001
> Typical mage wants to trace the signature of a
spell/spirit. Mundanes cannot go astral to do this so
assessing with the naked eye is useless your only
course is to do an aura reading. :)

Sorry, I don't follow the example...care to rephrase?

> And yes it seems specialized but then again so is
sorcery and conjuring ;)

But they're not anymore - as Gurth pointed out, the
ONLY people who can learn them now are the magically
active. Mundanes only learn the knowledge skill! The
awakened can all use those skills in one way or
another, and most of them can use one or both of them
to their full extent. So, sure, they may be
specialised as to WHO can learn to use them in the
same way as Aura Reading, but unlike Aura Reading,
they're NOT specialised as to WHAT they're used for.

So your argument hasn't convinced me so far. Anything else?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 22:10:01 2001
> > But, if he assenses/ reads the aura, he rolls
intel, he doesn't roll aura reading.
> >
> > If he has aura reading, it's as a complimentary
skill not as a replacement for intel.
> >
>
> Unfortunately I think I see a loop hole in your
logic. If to read auras all you rolled was
intelligence anyone, awakened or not, could see them
since everyone has intelligence.
>
> Aura reading is NOT just a complimentary skill. You
cannot read auras/signatures without it.
<snipt!(TM)>

And I see the loophole in yours, Jonathan.

You don't NEED Aura Reading to assense auras, in the
same way you need Conjuring to conjure spirits and
Sorcery to cast spells. You simply need to be
magically active and be able to astrally perceive.
That's how it stands in the rules.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 22:10:04 2001
> > But, if he assenses/ reads the aura, he rolls
intel, he doesn't roll aura reading.
> >
> > If he has aura reading, it's as a complimentary
skill not as a replacement for intel.
> >
>
> Unfortunately I think I see a loop hole in your
logic. If to read auras all you rolled was
intelligence anyone, awakened or not, could see them
since everyone has intelligence.
>
> Aura reading is NOT just a complimentary skill. You
cannot read auras/signatures without it.
<snipt!(TM)>

And I see the loophole in yours, Jonathan.

You don't NEED Aura Reading to assense auras, in the
same way you need Conjuring to conjure spirits and
Sorcery to cast spells. You simply need to be
magically active and be able to astrally perceive.
That's how it stands in the rules.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 22:35:01 2001
> You don't NEED Aura Reading to assense auras, in the
> same way you need Conjuring to conjure spirits and
> Sorcery to cast spells. You simply need to be
> magically active and be able to astrally perceive.
> That's how it stands in the rules.
>

So because you have the ability to hold a gun means you don't need a pistol
skill to identify its parts, how to reload it, how to hold it for least
recoil effects etc? Your intelligence score can improvise for you! ;)

Aura Reading allows mages to understand what they are seeing.
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 22:45:01 2001
> So because you have the ability to hold a gun means
you don't need a pistol skill to identify its parts,
how to reload it, how to hold it for least recoil
effects etc? Your intelligence score can improvise for
you! ;)

Well, yes, you could do that by defaulting - but
that's not what I'm saying.

> Aura Reading allows mages to understand what they
are seeing.

Yes, you can make an argument for that as far as logic
goes - but it's NOT how the MECHANICS work!

Read the book, Jonathan. Nowhere does it say you NEED
Aura Reading in order to a) assense something, or b)
understand the results of your assensing. No, it says
you need to be awakened, you need to be able to
astrally perceive, and then you roll your
Intelligence.

The moment Aura Reading becomes a requirement for
assensing, it gains an equal footing with Sorcery or
Conjuring. Until then, its primary use as a
complementary skill does NOT justify paying the same
amount of karma for it as for the other magical skills.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 23:00:01 2001
> The moment Aura Reading becomes a requirement for
> assensing, it gains an equal footing with Sorcery or
> Conjuring. Until then, its primary use as a
> complementary skill does NOT justify paying the same
> amount of karma for it as for the other magical skills.
>

I've re-read the section and I do see where you are coming from. I myself
have been going by the fact if you don't have aura reading you can't read
auras/signatures. So in my own view Aura Reading becomes a valid use,
however going strictly by what it says in the book you are quite correct
it's quite pointless to have Aura Reading as ANY kind of skill since by the
typed word an astrally percieving mage can read auras just fine without it.
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 17 23:00:04 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> The moment Aura Reading becomes a requirement for
assensing, it gains an equal footing with Sorcery or
Conjuring. Until then, its primary use as a
complementary skill does NOT justify paying the same
amount of karma for it as for the other magical
skills.

I should add:

"The moment Aura Reading becomes a requirement for
assensing," or is treated in the same manner as other
active skills,

etc. etc.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Thu Oct 18 00:45:00 2001
--- Jonathan <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote:
> > The moment Aura Reading becomes a requirement for
assensing, it gains an equal footing with Sorcery or
Conjuring. Until then, its primary use as a
complementary skill does NOT justify paying the same
amount of karma for it as for the other magical
skills.
>
> I've re-read the section and I do see where you are
coming from. I myself have been going by the fact if
you don't have aura reading you can't read
auras/signatures. So in my own view Aura Reading
becomes a valid use, however going strictly by what it
says in the book you are quite correct it's quite
pointless to have Aura Reading as ANY kind of skill
since by the typed word an astrally percieving mage
can read auras just fine without it.

Yeah, it becomes a conundrum. How do you make Aura
Reading a valid skill choice when you can already read
auras without it?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Thu Oct 18 04:55:11 2001
According to Jonathan, on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> Unfortunately I think I see a loop hole in your logic. If to read auras
> all you rolled was intelligence anyone, awakened or not, could see them
> since everyone has intelligence.

No, they could only read them if they have the ability to assense (or are
in one of those areas where astral space is visible to mundanes).

> Aura reading is NOT just a complimentary skill. You cannot read
> auras/signatures without it.

Yes, you can. The only requirement (besides having an Intelligence
attribute at all :) is the ability to use astral perception.

> Just like Conjuring, can a magician without
> conjuring summon spirits? Not talking about using an outside force that
> would allow him to use powers he normally does not have. If you gave an
> aspect magician some summoning materials could he/she conjure a
> spirit/elemental/etc.

Magical ability doesn't depend on skills. If you put priority A into magic,
and then not take any magical skills, you can still cast spells or conjure
spirits -- but you'll be using Willpower at a +4 to the TN and won't be
able to use your Spell Pool. Guess who's not going to be a very good
spellcaster? :)

> Explain Green to a blind man. You'd have an easier time.

Certainly. You say "roughly 510 to 550 nm wavelength" ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Thu Oct 18 05:30:05 2001
Records show that at 18:40 on Thursday 18/10/01, Gurth scribbled:
>Magical ability doesn't depend on skills. If you put priority A into magic,
>and then not take any magical skills, you can still cast spells or conjure
>spirits -- but you'll be using Willpower at a +4 to the TN and won't be
>able to use your Spell Pool. Guess who's not going to be a very good
>spellcaster? :)

I don't believe this is strictly correct. According to the skill
descriptions on p87 in SR3, against the Default line for both Sorcery and
Conjuring, it says "None. Either you have it or you don't." So, no
defaulting to Willpower for the unskilled but magically active. :-)

Chris
Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Thu Oct 18 07:35:01 2001
Chris Maxfield writes:

> Is this similar to the way Centering and Divination work where linked
> knowledge skills are required to use these metamagics and the ratings of
> the linked knowledge skills limit the use of the metamagics? Was that your
> inspiration? :-)

Er, yeah, the mechanism is very similar, actually. It's a bit more open in
that my Limiting Skills do not limit the Ratings of other skills - they just
limit the number of dice that can be rolled in that circumstance.

And, actually, the Centering and Divination rules were not even considered
when I came up with Limiting Skills. The thought process for Limiting Skills
revolved entirely around Athletics and Parachuting at the time ;-). Once the
rule was created, however, it immediately became apparent that it also
worked with other skills, too. Underwater Combat being the best example, and
a house rule we have for "Mobspeak" being another.

Thanks for pointing out that the special magic Creative and Prediction
skills are very similar, though. I've incorporated these into my Limiting
Skill rules, too. The first interesting side effect of doing so is that a
character may now have multiple Creative or Prediction skills, and choose
the one they wish to employ at the time. Their Centering and Divining skills
are no longer limited in Rating by their Creative and Prediction skills, but
they are limited in how many dice they may roll by the Rating of the
Creative or Prediction skill that they are using at the time. The second
interesting side effect is that it is now possible for a character who has
the Metamagical ability of Centering or Divining to attempt it without one
or both of the normally required skills by Defaulting.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 46
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Thu Oct 18 10:50:01 2001
Records show that at 21:35 on Thursday 18/10/01, Damion Milliken scribbled:
>And, actually, the Centering and Divination rules were not even considered
>when I came up with Limiting Skills. The thought process for Limiting Skills
>revolved entirely around Athletics and Parachuting at the time ;-). Once the
>rule was created, however, it immediately became apparent that it also
>worked with other skills, too. Underwater Combat being the best example, and
>a house rule we have for "Mobspeak" being another.

I can see the need. The idea, under SR3 rules, that anyone with English at
a certain level can speak Cityspeak or Tunneltalk at the same level, since
all lingos are specialisations, seems strange. Linking a Knowledge skill,
e.g. Street Savvy, to limit the number of dice that can be rolled with the
English skill works for me.

I've been thinking about using linked knowledge skills to limit the
multiple uses of the super-broad SR3 skills: Athletics, Electronics and
Etiquette, for some time. Thanks for the additional ideas.

Chris
Message no. 47
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Thu Oct 18 13:25:01 2001
According to Chris Maxfield, on Thu, 18 Oct 2001 the word on the street was...

> I don't believe this is strictly correct. According to the skill
> descriptions on p87 in SR3, against the Default line for both Sorcery and
> Conjuring, it says "None. Either you have it or you don't." So, no
> defaulting to Willpower for the unskilled but magically active. :-)

OK, granted :) Not that it makes sense, but hey, it's not the only thing
about the magic rules that doesn't ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 48
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Mon Oct 22 15:35:01 2001
A long time ago, Doc' wrote:
> No, that's not what I mean, Jonathan. I mean, all
> skills cost karma. But knowledge skills, which are
> used as complementary skills more often than active
> skills are (and even they can function as the base
> skill in a situation where you're testing your
> knowledge rather than your abilities) always cost less
> to improve than active skills of the same level (if
> the linked attributes are equivalent, too). So why
> does Aura Reading cost as much as an active skill when
> each rating point does less for you than any other
> skill?
>
> Sorry, it's hard to express, but look at it this way.
> Aura Reading 6 can get you, at most, 3 successes,
> because (as a complementary skill) all successes are
> halved. And you already have to have rolled at least
> one success on your assensing test to even have a
> chance to use Aura Reading.
>
> Assault Rifles 6 (for example), on the other hand, can
> give you up to 6 successes.
>
> Yet they both cost the same to purchase.
>
> How do you justify that?

That'll teach me to let my mail pile up like this... this discussion's
over before I could get my two bits in. Well, I'll toss 'em in anyway.

The easiest way to deal with this whole "Aura Reading as Crap Skill"
thing is to treat it like any other skill... if you have it, you roll it.
If you don't, you assense with Astral Perception using Intelligence dice at
a +4 modifier. It makes the skill worthwhile and keeps it in line with the
other skill rules.

'Course, I'm biased... I hate joes who go around assensing every damn
horse and donut they see.

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 49
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: SR3 skills:Especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 24 05:15:00 2001
> The easiest way to deal with this whole "Aura Reading as Crap Skill"
>thing is to treat it like any other skill... if you have it, you roll it.
>If you don't, you assense with Astral Perception using Intelligence dice at
>a +4 modifier. It makes the skill worthwhile and keeps it in line with the
>other skill rules.

This brings up someting from our game. An adept got Astrall
Perception and started assensing stuff. He could find spell
signatures and could find out which spell was cast on a person etc,
even though he knew nothing about sorcery and had never seen the
astrall before.
Because of this, I think useing Aura Reading as the skill and
Intelligence as the limked attribute, seems much more realistic and
appropriate.
Message no. 50
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 skills:Especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 24 11:20:01 2001
In a message dated 10/24/01 5:17:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz writes:

> This brings up someting from our game. An adept got Astrall
> Perception and started assensing stuff. He could find spell
> signatures and could find out which spell was cast on a person etc,
> even though he knew nothing about sorcery and had never seen the
> astrall before.
> Because of this, I think useing Aura Reading as the skill and
> Intelligence as the limked attribute, seems much more realistic and
> appropriate.
>

I figured it this way as well, but since it involves changing a rule as well
as giving magicker's something ELSE to spend money on, I was leaning towards
allowing it as a knowledge skill. It involves less change to the rules, and
keep everything on an even footing.

Of course, sometimes all that aurareading can get irritating when you're
trying to hide things from the players. In such a campaign, making aura
reading an active skill that defaults would make the overall ability more
rare in use.
Message no. 51
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR3 skills:Especially Athletics
Date: Wed Oct 24 14:40:00 2001
From: <Schizi@***.com>
<Snip>
> Of course, sometimes all that aurareading can get irritating when you're
> trying to hide things from the players. In such a campaign, making aura
> reading an active skill that defaults would make the overall ability more
> rare in use.

You can't even deafult to aura reading BTB. See
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/book/errata_sr3.html

Lars
Message no. 52
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR3 skills:Especially Athletics
Date: Fri Oct 26 20:20:01 2001
In a message dated 10/24/01 2:42:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk writes:

> > Of course, sometimes all that aurareading can get irritating when you're
> > trying to hide things from the players. In such a campaign, making aura
> > reading an active skill that defaults would make the overall ability more
> > rare in use.
>
> You can't even deafult to aura reading BTB. See
> http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/book/errata_sr3.html

Yes, but under normal rules, defaulting to Aura Reading would be silly
(you're rolling intel, then intel again as a complimentary roll?)
If you changed the system to where Aura Reading replaced the intel roll, it'd
really penalize the magickers to not allow defaulting.
Message no. 53
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR3 skills:Especially Athletics
Date: Sun Oct 28 17:25:01 2001
From: <Schizi@***.com>
<Snip>
> Yes, but under normal rules, defaulting to Aura Reading would be silly
> (you're rolling intel, then intel again as a complimentary roll?)

Sure, but it's not the only silly thing in SR.

In any case you can't default to a skill you want to use a complimentary skill
(SR3 pg. 97, column 1, last 4 lines).

> If you changed the system to where Aura Reading replaced the intel roll, it'd
> really penalize the magickers to not allow defaulting.

No more than not allowing to default to Sorcery or Conjuring.

But back on the topic:

Either you accept that Aura Reading is a special background skill, that costs as
much as an active skill (and can only be bought with active skill points at
creation), and can only be used as a complimentary skill.

Or you change the rules, to suit you style of play.

Lars
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l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
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Message no. 54
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Alex Rudnick)
Subject: SR3 Skills, especially Athletics
Date: Sat Nov 17 10:00:00 2001
> On an aside note, what was the most amusing Knowledge Skill / Hobby that
> you've seen a player use?

A guy in my group who plays a dwarven decker took "Creative Insults" for
those moments when he wants his character to say something really
offensive and he might not be thinking quickly enough... he (both the
player and the character) reminds me of the Nockers from Changeling
somewhat...

TGITH

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