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From:	Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject:	[SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:02:30 -0400

Message no. 1 Hi, all. Me again. I wanted to thank everyone for their feedback. I also
wanted to mention the fact that none of the ideas I'm putting out for
discussion are necessarily the way things are going to be in SR3. They're
just ideas I'm playing around with. I have no idea if any of them will
actually fly with FASA and won't know until after GEN-CON at least. When I
have something that is in the proposal or first-draft stage, I'll let you
know. This is just brainstorming for the moment.

That said... here's another idea for the list to chew on. How about setting
the Drain for spellcasting at Force, but offering options spellcasters can
use to reduce the Force for Drain purposes. This way, spell-slingers who are
prepared under ideal conditions have less Drain while characters throwing
spells under more difficult conditions, where they can't use the various
magical rituals, tend to take more Drain.

RITUALS
Normally, spellcasting requires the caster do nothing more than concentrate
on the desired effect to manipulate the astral forces and cast the spell. A
sorcerer can simply stare at a target and cause him to burst into flames or
turn into a toad. This sort of spellcasting is very tiring, however, causing
a great deal of Drain when casting high Force spells, so magical characters
have rituals, things they do to help focus their concentration and channel
magical forces more easily. They help reduce the wear and tear on the
spellcaster caused by Drain, allowing a character to cast more powerful
spells more often for less Drain.

When casting a spell, the caster chooses whether or not to apply any rituals
to it. Each ritual used in the spellcasting reduces the Force of the spell by
one for the purpose of determining the Drain Code and for determining if the
Drain of the spell is Physical (wound) or Mental (fatigue) damage. The caster
can still only cast the spell up to the maximum Force known and the rituals
do not affect the Spell Success Test in any way, only the Drain Resistance
Test.

Rituals cannot reduce the effective Force of a spell for Drain purposes below
1. Ritual modifiers are applied before Drain Code modifiers. If the final
result is less than 2, the Drain Target Number is considered to be 2. For
example, a Powerbolt spell has a Drain of +1S. If the spell is cast at Force
5 with two rituals, the effective Force for Drain is reduced to 3. The final
Drain Code for the spell is (3+1) = 4S.

Rituals can only be used while the spellcaster is in physical form (including
while using astral perception) because they rely on physical things and
actions. Astrally projecting characters are made up of nothing more than
Magic and Willpower and must use only those to resist Drain for any spells
cast in astral form.

The following rituals can be used for spellcasting. Shadowrun players are
free to come up with new rituals for their magical characters but, as always,
the gamemaster has final say on whether or not any ritual is appropriate for
the campaign.

Exclusive
The spell with this ritual applied cannot be cast in combination with any
other spell and the caster cannot maintain other spells or use other magical
skills while casting or sustaining this spell.

Fetish
The caster needs a material component which is consumed in the casting of the
spell. In effect, the spell uses "ammo." Items must be magically prepared for
use as fetishes. Pre-prepared fetishes are available from talismongers. A
fetish is specific to a certain Category of spells and may be used for any
spell of that Category, but not spells of another Category.

Gesture
The caster must gesture, dance or make similar movements while casting the
spell. This requires the caster to be free to move. Such movements are easily
noticed and preclude the use of Stealth.

Incantation
The caster must speak, sing or chant in a loud, firm voice while casting the
spell. This requires the caster to be free to speak. Such incantations are
easily noticed and preclude the use of Stealth.

Talisman
The caster must have a material component, which is not consumed in the
spellcasting. A talisman must be worn or carried to be useful. Talismans must
be magically prepared for use like fetishes. Pre-made talismans are available
from talismongers. Like fetishes, talismans are specific to a certain
Category of spell and may be used for any spell of that Category.

Example 1: Sammy the Burned-Out Mage has a Magic attribute of 2. He wants to
toss a killer manaball spell to take out a bunch of gangers bearing down on
him, but he doesn't want the Drain to damage him too badly, so he decides to
toss in some rituals. Since stealth is already out, Sammy decides to use
Incantation and Gesture. He also has a Combat Spell talisman with him, a
glove stitched with magical designs, so he throws that in, too. He doesn't go
for Exclusive, because he suspects the gangers have an adept of their own and
he might need some Spell Defense.
He tosses the spell at Force 5. The rituals bring the effective Force of the
spell down to 2 for Drain purposes. Since that is equal to Sammy's Magic
attribute, he doesn't have to worry about Physical Drain damage. He rolls his
Willpower against a Drain Code of 2S for the spell. Sammy could have cast the
spell at Force 6 (the highest Force he knows), but that would have made the
effective Force with the rituals Force 3, so Sammy would have to resist 3S
Physical Drain instead.

Example 2: The manaball doesn't take out all of the gangers and they kick
Sammy's ass. They tie him up, gag him and leave him in the basement of their
doss while they go looking for Sammy's chummers. One guard stays and keeps an
eye on the mage. Sammy wants to cast a Stunbolt spell on the guard to knock
him out so he can try to escape. Since he is tied up and gagged he can't use
the Gesture or Incantation rituals. The gangers also took all of his fetishes
and talismans, so that's out, too. He can use the Exclusive ritual, however.
So Sammy focuses his concentration and casts his Stunbolt spell at Force 5.
The ritual reduces the effective Force to 4 for Drain. This is over Sammy's
Magic attribute, so it is Physical Drain. Stunbolt has a Drain Code of -1S,
so Sammy must resist 3S Physical Drain.

GEASA
Geasa are like Rituals, only moreso. Where a Ritual is an optional thing a
spellcaster can do to reduce the Drain of a spell, a Geas is required for all
of the magical skills of the character with the geas. If the character does
not fulfill the geas, he can still use magic but suffers a +2 TN modifier for
all magical Tests while the geas is broken.

The fulfilling of a geas can also count as a Ritual for spellcasting, so a
character with an Incantation geas can also use it as an Incantation ritual
to reduce the Drain of casting spells. Burned-out spellcasters can be pretty
tough when the have a chance to get all of their chants, gestures and
talismans going. When they can't, they're very limited in what they can do.

CENTERING
Centering is the initiated version of rituals; a metamagical ability using an
artistic Special Skill to focus the user's concentration and provide
additional dice to reduce Drain. Centering requires a Simple Action to
perform the required skill. Some Centering Skills can also fulfill geasa or
act as a ritual (see above). For example, an initiate who centers by chanting
the medicine songs of his people could also fulfill an Incantation geas and
perform an Incantation ritual while centering. No more than one Centering
Skill can be used at a time.

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:20:10 -0700

Message no. 2 | Hi, all. Me again. I wanted to thank everyone for their feedback. I also
| wanted to mention the fact that none of the ideas I'm putting out for
| discussion are necessarily the way things are going to be in SR3. They're
| just ideas I'm playing around with. I have no idea if any of them will
| actually fly with FASA and won't know until after GEN-CON at least. When
I
| have something that is in the proposal or first-draft stage, I'll let you
| know. This is just brainstorming for the moment.

Fair enough...I think that you had made that clear before so don't worry
about it. ;-)

| That said... here's another idea for the list to chew on. How about
setting
| the Drain for spellcasting at Force, but offering options spellcasters
can
| use to reduce the Force for Drain purposes. This way, spell-slingers who
are
| prepared under ideal conditions have less Drain while characters throwing
| spells under more difficult conditions, where they can't use the various
| magical rituals, tend to take more Drain.

This reminds me of the "Sorcerers do move around and gesture when they cast
spells even though they don't have to" thread that was hot and heavy a few
weeks ago.

<snip>

| When casting a spell, the caster chooses whether or not to apply any
rituals
| to it. Each ritual used in the spellcasting reduces the Force of the
spell by
| one for the purpose of determining the Drain Code and for determining if
the
| Drain of the spell is Physical (wound) or Mental (fatigue) damage. The
caster
| can still only cast the spell up to the maximum Force known and the
rituals
| do not affect the Spell Success Test in any way, only the Drain
Resistance
| Test.

Ok I like the idea so far...i'll try to put all the beefy comments at the
end so bear with me. :)

| Rituals cannot reduce the effective Force of a spell for Drain purposes
below
| 1. Ritual modifiers are applied before Drain Code modifiers. If the final
| result is less than 2, the Drain Target Number is considered to be 2. For
| example, a Powerbolt spell has a Drain of +1S. If the spell is cast at
Force
| 5 with two rituals, the effective Force for Drain is reduced to 3. The
final
| Drain Code for the spell is (3+1) = 4S.
|
| Rituals can only be used while the spellcaster is in physical form
(including
| while using astral perception) because they rely on physical things and
| actions. Astrally projecting characters are made up of nothing more than
| Magic and Willpower and must use only those to resist Drain for any
spells
| cast in astral form.

Ok the above rule is important because of the extra pool that initiates can
get...thank you for including a clear "No you cannot do this" line...SR as
we all know could use a few more of those. ;)

| Example 1: Sammy the Burned-Out Mage has a Magic attribute of 2. He wants
to
| toss a killer manaball spell to take out a bunch of gangers bearing down
on
| him, but he doesn't want the Drain to damage him too badly, so he decides
to
| toss in some rituals. Since stealth is already out, Sammy decides to use
| Incantation and Gesture. He also has a Combat Spell talisman with him, a
| glove stitched with magical designs, so he throws that in, too. He
doesn't go
| for Exclusive, because he suspects the gangers have an adept of their own
and
| he might need some Spell Defense.
| He tosses the spell at Force 5. The rituals bring the effective Force of
the
| spell down to 2 for Drain purposes. Since that is equal to Sammy's Magic
| attribute, he doesn't have to worry about Physical Drain damage. He rolls
his
| Willpower against a Drain Code of 2S for the spell. Sammy could have cast
the
| spell at Force 6 (the highest Force he knows), but that would have made
the
| effective Force with the rituals Force 3, so Sammy would have to resist
3S
| Physical Drain instead.

Okay so far it's okay, but I would do a few alterations. First off Sammy
above here has a talisman that's a glove which means that 99.999999999% of
the time he can use that for every spell that he casts. That's fine as
long as the advantage is evened out. I'd say that it takes more time to
prepare the spell when cast with rituals...perhaps another action to weave
the rituals into the fabric of the spell as you know it. When you learned
the spell it was one way...with rituals unnecessary, so you need to "tune"
the spell to accept them. Thereby balancing the "munch" factor. As a
second factor and one which I don't know what your stand point is on it...I
would say that rituals make the spell casting VERY obvious. That way if
you want to cast that force 1 spell hoping no one will notice...don't use
rituals. Question: If you cast an exclusive instant spell how long are
you kept from using spell defense? Until your next turn? That's what I
would assume, but I wanted to be sure.

<snip example 2>

| GEASA
| Geasa are like Rituals, only moreso. Where a Ritual is an optional thing
a
| spellcaster can do to reduce the Drain of a spell, a Geas is required for
all
| of the magical skills of the character with the geas. If the character
does
| not fulfill the geas, he can still use magic but suffers a +2 TN modifier
for
| all magical Tests while the geas is broken.
|
| The fulfilling of a geas can also count as a Ritual for spellcasting, so
a
| character with an Incantation geas can also use it as an Incantation
ritual
| to reduce the Drain of casting spells. Burned-out spellcasters can be
pretty
| tough when the have a chance to get all of their chants, gestures and
| talismans going. When they can't, they're very limited in what they can
do.

Whoa!! I don't like the GEASA counts as ritual also idea...not at all. If
they want to use a different ritual along with the gease then ok, but why
give them a bonus for abusing the Mojo vessel. :)

| CENTERING
| Centering is the initiated version of rituals; a metamagical ability
using an
| artistic Special Skill to focus the user's concentration and provide
| additional dice to reduce Drain. Centering requires a Simple Action to
| perform the required skill. Some Centering Skills can also fulfill geasa
or
| act as a ritual (see above). For example, an initiate who centers by
chanting
| the medicine songs of his people could also fulfill an Incantation geas
and
| perform an Incantation ritual while centering. No more than one Centering
| Skill can be used at a time.

I still don't like the "this can count for two things" approach...it scares
me. Centering is already very powerful if used correctly, lets not make it
more so.

How would you handle stacked spells? If I launch 3 manadarts in the same
round does one touch of the 'ol amulet reduce the drain for all three?
What about gesturing and incantation? I would say yes, but only if the
spells take longer to cast.

Well those are my ideas...lets talk.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there is not a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:44:05 +0100

Message no. 3 |long as the advantage is evened out. I'd say that it takes more time to
|prepare the spell when cast with rituals...perhaps another action to weave
|the rituals into the fabric of the spell as you know it. When you learned
|the spell it was one way...with rituals unnecessary, so you need to "tune"
|the spell to accept them.

Hmmmmm.....
Caric.....
Weave? Tune??

Weave a thread maybe? And a spell matrix mayhap????

Bit too Earthy for me.... (If you know what I mean)

:)

I STILL say forget worrying too much about force, and add staging!
(I'll keep banging on about this until someone at FASA responds.....)

:) :)

Thereby balancing the "munch" factor. As a
|second factor and one which I don't know what your stand point is on it...I
|would say that rituals make the spell casting VERY obvious. That way if
|you want to cast that force 1 spell hoping no one will notice...don't use
|rituals. Question: If you cast an exclusive instant spell how long are
|you kept from using spell defense? Until your next turn? That's what I
|would assume, but I wanted to be sure.

I suppose that depends if you sustain it or not......

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:42:39 -0700

Message no. 4 | |long as the advantage is evened out. I'd say that it takes more time to
| |prepare the spell when cast with rituals...perhaps another action to
weave
| |the rituals into the fabric of the spell as you know it. When you
learned
| |the spell it was one way...with rituals unnecessary, so you need to
"tune"
| |the spell to accept them.
|
| Hmmmmm.....
| Caric.....
| Weave? Tune??

uh oh...that's scary 'cuz I don't even play that particular game...I want
to, but we don't have a GM.

| Weave a thread maybe? And a spell matrix mayhap????
| Bit too Earthy for me.... (If you know what I mean)

<Grin>

| :)
|
| I STILL say forget worrying too much about force, and add staging!
| (I'll keep banging on about this until someone at FASA responds.....)

I would imagine Spike old pal that the variable staging isn't going to come
back. The everything staging of two is just much less complicated and i'm
afraid that it is probab;y here to stay. I agree that variable staging is
cool, but we have been playing long enough that we forget how confusing it
can be for a new player.

| :) :)
|
|
| Thereby balancing the "munch" factor. As a
| |second factor and one which I don't know what your stand point is on
it...I
| |would say that rituals make the spell casting VERY obvious. That way if
| |you want to cast that force 1 spell hoping no one will notice...don't
use
| |rituals. Question: If you cast an exclusive instant spell how long are
| |you kept from using spell defense? Until your next turn? That's what I
| |would assume, but I wanted to be sure.
|
| I suppose that depends if you sustain it or not......

Well you set aside dice for spell defense on you action, so if you are
casting an exclusive spell that turn, you wouldn't be able to assign spell
defense or shielding that turn correct?

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:24:02 -0800

Message no. 5 At 15:02 7/8/97 -0400, Steve Kenson wrote:
>RITUALS

>Rituals cannot reduce the effective Force of a spell for Drain purposes below
>1. Ritual modifiers are applied before Drain Code modifiers. If the final
>result is less than 2, the Drain Target Number is considered to be 2. For
>example, a Powerbolt spell has a Drain of +1S. If the spell is cast at Force
>5 with two rituals, the effective Force for Drain is reduced to 3. The final
>Drain Code for the spell is (3+1) = 4S.

>The following rituals can be used for spellcasting. Shadowrun players are
>free to come up with new rituals for their magical characters but, as always,
>the gamemaster has final say on whether or not any ritual is appropriate for
>the campaign.

An addition I'd like to see: some rituals should take more time than others.
Exclusivity and fetishes should take no time; Talisman is just a reusable
fetish that's more general-purpose, and I would suggest you cannot have
both Fetish and Talisman. For gestures and incantations, the wizard should
take at least two actions to spellcast, because it takes time to perform the
gestures and/or incantations. It doesn't make sense to me that someone would
be able to get the benefit of performing a dance if they only do so for about
a second, or singing if they can only get out one note.

I'd also suggest that there might be another Ritual, Preparation (there
ought to
be a better name for it), which would involve lighting incense, drawing chalk
circles on the ground, and similar such activities. (It would not actually
require talismongered fetishes, which is why this isn't just a form of
expendable fetish.)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:32:31 +0100

Message no. 6 Steve Kenson said on 15:02/ 8 Jul 97...

> RITUALS
[stuff snipped]

This is a very good idea, but not something you'd want to put in the base
rulebook, IMHO... More something for a third edition Grimthingy if you ask
me, since it would overwhelm new players somewhat by adding a lot to the
complexity.

> The following rituals can be used for spellcasting. Shadowrun players are
> free to come up with new rituals for their magical characters but, as always,
> the gamemaster has final say on whether or not any ritual is appropriate for
> the campaign.

[snip]
> Fetish
> The caster needs a material component which is consumed in the casting of the
> spell. In effect, the spell uses "ammo." Items must be magically prepared
for
> use as fetishes. Pre-prepared fetishes are available from talismongers. A
> fetish is specific to a certain Category of spells and may be used for any
> spell of that Category, but not spells of another Category.

So a fetish would reduce the Force by 1, right? Then we have the...

> Talisman
> The caster must have a material component, which is not consumed in the
> spellcasting. A talisman must be worn or carried to be useful. Talismans must
> be magically prepared for use like fetishes. Pre-made talismans are available
> from talismongers. Like fetishes, talismans are specific to a certain
> Category of spell and may be used for any spell of that Category.

...which would do exactly the same as a fetish, except it doesn't
disappear when the spell is cast. In that case the choice is easy:
talisman all the way, since you only need one and it'll never run out,
while with a fetish you'd have to carry around an armful of the things if
you're planning on casting "their" spell a lot.

Another thing I'd like to suggest is some kind of ritual that makes the
spell take longer to cast. For example, every Complex Action spent on the
ritual lowers the spell's Force by 1 for the Drain Resistance Test. The
spell is then cast at the end of the ritual.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:43:00 -0700

Message no. 7 | I'd also suggest that there might be another Ritual, Preparation (there
| ought to
| be a better name for it), which would involve lighting incense, drawing
chalk
| circles on the ground, and similar such activities. (It would not
actually
| require talismongered fetishes, which is why this isn't just a form of
| expendable fetish.)

For this particular gem i would increase the bonuses it infers. It could
really help with that mind probe spell when it's doing 12D drain at force
6. Maybe "preparation" (I agree it needs a better name, but I couldn't
think of one either :) could lower drain catagory by one and the TN by 2,
but it would take several minutes to prepare...like say force+1D6 miutes.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:57:39 -0700

Message no. 8 | > RITUALS
| [stuff snipped]
|
| This is a very good idea, but not something you'd want to put in the base
| rulebook, IMHO... More something for a third edition Grimthingy if you
ask
| me, since it would overwhelm new players somewhat by adding a lot to the
| complexity.

Now this is a good point Gurth...I mean we have to face that the main SRII
book is well over three hundred pages and we can't expect the SRIII to be
much bigger. FASA is going to have to revamp the vehicle and matrix rules
in it, so I can't imagine that alot of "new" space will be devoted to
magic. A new grimmy may be on the horizon then.

| So a fetish would reduce the Force by 1, right? Then we have the...

Apparently so yes.

| > Talisman
| > The caster must have a material component, which is not consumed in the
| > spellcasting. A talisman must be worn or carried to be useful.
Talismans must
| > be magically prepared for use like fetishes. Pre-made talismans are
available
| > from talismongers. Like fetishes, talismans are specific to a certain
| > Category of spell and may be used for any spell of that Category.
|
| ...which would do exactly the same as a fetish, except it doesn't
| disappear when the spell is cast. In that case the choice is easy:
| talisman all the way, since you only need one and it'll never run out,
| while with a fetish you'd have to carry around an armful of the things if
| you're planning on casting "their" spell a lot.

Apparently though one could stack these rituals all together.

| Another thing I'd like to suggest is some kind of ritual that makes the
| spell take longer to cast. For example, every Complex Action spent on the
| ritual lowers the spell's Force by 1 for the Drain Resistance Test. The
| spell is then cast at the end of the ritual.

I still think that all of them should make it take longer if the spell
isn't specifically designed to be cast that way...if the spell was learned
as exclusive then that ritual would have to be used everytime the spell was
cast. The bonus would be there, but no other rituals could be added unless
the caster took the time to "mix in" the other ritualistic bits. (better
Spike?)

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	"Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:33:03 -0500

Message no. 9 You wrote:
> uh oh...that's scary 'cuz I don't even play that particular game...I want
> to, but we don't have a GM.
Coincidence? ... Yeah, probably. ;)
> I would imagine Spike old pal that the variable staging isn't going to come
> back. The everything staging of two is just much less complicated and i'm
> afraid that it is probab;y here to stay. I agree that variable staging is
> cool, but we have been playing long enough that we forget how confusing it
> can be for a new player.
Well, I never found it to confusing (other aspects of 1st ed confused me more,
I remember my first session GMing, my only other previous experience being
**AD&D**, and us pondering over things like when you could stage things (i.e.
most everything) and dice pools... and whether 1's subtracted successes or just
all 1's was a botch (and no I'd never played vampire before, this was long
before it existed - And I hate 1's subtracting in that system).

> Well you set aside dice for spell defense on you action, so if you are
> casting an exclusive spell that turn, you wouldn't be able to assign spell
> defense or shielding that turn correct?
That's the way I'd interpret it. 'No other magical activity' is no other
magical activity.

losthalo

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:47:18 -0400

Message no. 10 <SNIP Typically well presented Kenson stuff on Rituals>

This is a good concept, and would likely work quite well, but I for one
would NOT want to see this in SR.

One of the things that IMO really set SR magic apart from every other RPG
I'd ever played right from the start was the fact that wizards could cast
spells on willpower alone.
No material components, Somantic Gestures, nothing.

Changing this would be IMO a slide backwards rather than an improvement in
the SR magic system.
SR mages are tough, and IMO should be.
They are using wild, fantastic powers in a world where these powers are
still very new.
It should be quite easy for these powerful beings to abuse this power.

That said, I have yet to see even the most munchkinous mage be such a
threat to game balance that I needed to alter SR2 drain codes, or tack on
any more spell modifiers than the main book suggests.

I guess I like my magic wild and wooly. Please don't slow the mages down in
SR3

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I will ride the walrus. I will poke the invisible flowers. I have always
known how."

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:13:50 EST

Message no. 11 > RITUALS

Don't call them rituals, save that name for the "preparation"
modifier someone suggested. Look up some appropriately impressive
sounding name.

> When casting a spell, the caster chooses whether or not to apply any
> rituals to it. Each ritual used in the spellcasting reduces the
> Force of the spell by one for the purpose of determining the Drain

Gurth pointed out that this makes Talismans the same as Fetishes.

> Rituals cannot reduce the effective Force of a spell for Drain
> purposes below 1. Ritual modifiers are applied before Drain Code
> modifiers. If the final result is less than 2, the Drain Target
> Number is considered to be 2. For example, a Powerbolt spell has a
> Drain of +1S. If the spell is cast at Force 5 with two rituals, the
> effective Force for Drain is reduced to 3. The final Drain Code for
> the spell is (3+1) = 4S.

Good. You define it well, with example, removing the chance of
loopholes.

> Rituals can only be used while the spellcaster is in physical form
> (including while using astral perception) because they rely on

Also good.

> Exclusive

I would worry that characters would start using such rituals all the
time....this is alright, but only if you bulk up the drain codes.

BTW, mention the spell defense thing in the definition..."magical
skill" isn't very clear.

> Fetish

See Gurth's comment about Fetishes and Talismans. BTW, I like
separating the two into different names.

> Gesture
> The caster must gesture, dance or make similar movements while
> casting the spell. This requires the caster to be free to move. Such
> movements are easily noticed and preclude the use of Stealth.

Better clear up about how this is _SO_ bloody obvious as opposed to
normal casting which is <insert poor current definition of your favor
here>

> Incantation
> Talisman
> GEASA
> CENTERING

Ok. Unlike Caric, I think using those last two as "countable towards
multibple" works, because of the added penalty (you have to be
initiated to get Centering, and you get a +2 if you don't fulfill the
geasa)

Otherwise it will be a long debate about using Centering vs. Using
the ritual....IT would pretty much kill centering, since you would
need a very high Centering Skill to make it worth giving up the
rituals.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:58:25 -0400

Message no. 12 At 12:47 AM 09/07/1997 -0400, Steven wrote:
><SNIP Typically well presented Kenson stuff on Rituals>

I totally agree

>This is a good concept, and would likely work quite well, but I for one
>would NOT want to see this in SR.

I also think this could be presented as optional rules (side bars on the
SRIII?) because there would be many variables to think of when creating a
mage character among other considerations

>One of the things that IMO really set SR magic apart from every other RPG
>I'd ever played right from the start was the fact that wizards could cast
>spells on willpower alone.
>No material components, Somantic Gestures, nothing.

Don't you think this way magic could be viewed as a psionic manifestation?
Magic also could include some characteristics such as gestures and chanting
for some not-willpowered-mages, making it more arcane and mysterious.

>Please don't slow the mages down in SR3

I agree

The elven mage

Who is not munchking when he plays

David Fayes & Angel Ramos
Phone 58-2-2574061
Fax 58-2-2561681
Email hansa@****.net

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:01:26 EDT

Message no. 13 I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here:) I've been listening to what
everyone else has been saying (an advantage of not posting right away: I
get to see what everyone else thinks:), and I think that this is a good
idea, but I also agree with Steve Tinner: DON'T make these part of the
spell formula. Second, as several people have said, don't allow the
Talisman and Fetish rituals (there's got to be a better word for it,
though - what about 'rite'?) to stack. And you really need to
differentiate between the two, or you'll never see the Fetish used. Don't
let a magician fulfilling geasa use that against drain (the geas is a
punishment by the cosmos, not a gift), and don't let an attempt at
centering work on the drain like this (so you can't get that Drain Target
reduction and your centering test for the same thing). And someone
metioned a bonus for time spent preparing to cast the spell, that falls
real close to ritual sorcery, IMO, do it should be handled very carefully
to differentiate it.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:27:38 -0700

Message no. 14 Swiftone wrote:

| > Incantation
| > Talisman
| > GEASA
| > CENTERING
|
| Ok. Unlike Caric, I think using those last two as "countable towards
| multibple" works, because of the added penalty (you have to be
| initiated to get Centering, and you get a +2 if you don't fulfill the
| geasa)

Hmmm...I may be misreading this, but I do think that someone should be able
to use their geas and other rituals at the same time, but I don't think
that if gesturing is a caster geas that they should get a -1 to drain
target as well as fulfill the geas with it. If they want to gesture to
fulfill the geas and then cast the spell exclusively then more power to
them.

| Otherwise it will be a long debate about using Centering vs. Using
| the ritual....IT would pretty much kill centering, since you would
| need a very high Centering Skill to make it worth giving up the
| rituals.

First before I forget does centering count as it's own "magical activity?"
Can someone center when casting an exclusive spell?

Again with centering I say they can do it and other rituals, but the
centering itself should count as one of the ritual. I shouldn't be able to
center for successes and because my centering skill is gesturing I also get
a -1 to drain TN...cantering is already "using" the gestures as part of it
I say.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:45:45 -0700

Message no. 15 | >One of the things that IMO really set SR magic apart from every other
RPG
| >I'd ever played right from the start was the fact that wizards could
cast
| >spells on willpower alone.
| >No material components, Somantic Gestures, nothing.

I don't think that anyone wants to see that go away including myslef who
was one of the most vocal "Casting spells must cause SOME sort of
movement!!!!" advocates. :)
Under the rules Steve was brainstorming that would still be completely
possible, the caster would just need to resist the full drain, which he's
doing now anyway. It would just put a system into place for those times
when a caster has time to prepare his spells. I still say that you
shouldn't be able to use rituals and cast all in the same complex action.
I know we can't stop all munchkinism, but lets plug as many loopholes as we
can now to keep the house rule volume down later.

| Don't you think this way magic could be viewed as a psionic
manifestation?
| Magic also could include some characteristics such as gestures and
chanting
| for some not-willpowered-mages, making it more arcane and mysterious.

I have said this before under the mysticism thread, so bear with me. Magic
in SR )at least from the way my group sees it) is purely a functoin of the
caster. If the magician believes that his abilities are a manifestation of
his mind then that's how they will appear. If the magician believes that
the evil spirit of the waste paper basket is what grants him his power then
so be it. This allows for the magician to taylor his magical style into
something that will work for him, and keeps us from having to have 900
different systems other than mage and shaman. Basically everything can
lead back to either mage or shaman. Druids are just a different kind of
shaman...psionicists are just a different style of mage. Religious icon
who cast magic...well, you decide.

| >Please don't slow the mages down in SR3
|
| I agree

Do realize that the rituals would be purely voluntary NOT required. Hope
that puts your mind at ease Mr. Tinner.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:20:30 -0400

Message no. 16 In a message dated 97-07-08 22:38:58 EDT, TalonMail@***.com (Steve Kenson)
writes:

>
> That said... here's another idea for the list to chew on. How about
setting
> the Drain for spellcasting at Force, but offering options spellcasters can
> use to reduce the Force for Drain purposes. This way, spell-slingers who
are
> prepared under ideal conditions have less Drain while characters throwing
> spells under more difficult conditions, where they can't use the various
> magical rituals, tend to take more Drain.
>
>
Now that idea I can actually agree with Steve...it helps in some ways.
Another option that is used here, is if a caster actually has the time to
"build up" for the casting of a spell instead of the heat of combat, the
drain target is reduced by 1 per complex action of time that goes by, similar
to the "aiming" modifier used in firearms. The maximum it can be reduced is
usually half the Intelligence OR the Sorcery Skill of the caster, whichever
is LESS.

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:43:50 -0800

Message no. 17 At 00:47 7/9/97 -0400, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>One of the things that IMO really set SR magic apart from every other RPG
>I'd ever played right from the start was the fact that wizards could cast
>spells on willpower alone.
>No material components, Somantic Gestures, nothing.

This is still possible. In theory, a mage *should* be able to work magic
stark naked without moving a muscle. In practice, though, many will need
their little "crutches" to help them wield their power. The mages that
stick with the pure-willpower method will have higher drain codes, but they
can feel moral superiority to the ones who are stuck with their gestures
and incantations and chalk diagrams on the sidewalk. (This would be a good
thing to mention in the description of all these things.)

>Changing this would be IMO a slide backwards rather than an improvement in
>the SR magic system.

As long as it's just an option, rather than a requirement, I think it's
a step forward.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:47:24 -0700

Message no. 18 | This is still possible. In theory, a mage *should* be able to work magic
| stark naked without moving a muscle. In practice, though, many will need
| their little "crutches" to help them wield their power. The mages that
| stick with the pure-willpower method will have higher drain codes, but
they
| can feel moral superiority to the ones who are stuck with their gestures
| and incantations and chalk diagrams on the sidewalk. (This would be a
good
| thing to mention in the description of all these things.)

Oooo this brings up the possibility of Ritual Addiction...just like focus
addiction. This should help assuage the EGM inside all of us. Will this
time be the one that addicts me?

| >Changing this would be IMO a slide backwards rather than an improvement
in
| >the SR magic system.
|
| As long as it's just an option, rather than a requirement, I think it's
| a step forward.

I agree.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:59:43 -0400

Message no. 19 In a message dated 97-07-08 22:38:58 EDT, TalonMail@***.com (Steve Kenson)
writes:

>
> That said... here's another idea for the list to chew on. How about
setting
> the Drain for spellcasting at Force, but offering options spellcasters can
> use to reduce the Force for Drain purposes. This way, spell-slingers who
are
> prepared under ideal conditions have less Drain while characters throwing
> spells under more difficult conditions, where they can't use the various
> magical rituals, tend to take more Drain.
>
> RITUALS

Is the following material then using a term for "Real World Magic" Steve?
What you describe initially below sounds more like Conditional Geasa
(described more in the Awakenings Book).

> Normally, spellcasting requires the caster do nothing more than
concentrate
> on the desired effect to manipulate the astral forces and cast the spell.
A
> sorcerer can simply stare at a target and cause him to burst into flames
or
> turn into a toad. This sort of spellcasting is very tiring, however,
causing
> a great deal of Drain when casting high Force spells, so magical
characters
> have rituals, things they do to help focus their concentration and channel
> magical forces more easily. They help reduce the wear and tear on the
> spellcaster caused by Drain, allowing a character to cast more powerful
> spells more often for less Drain.
>
> When casting a spell, the caster chooses whether or not to apply any
rituals
> to it. Each ritual used in the spellcasting reduces the Force of the spell

> by
> one for the purpose of determining the Drain Code and for determining if
the
> Drain of the spell is Physical (wound) or Mental (fatigue) damage. The
> caster
> can still only cast the spell up to the maximum Force known and the
rituals
> do not affect the Spell Success Test in any way, only the Drain Resistance
> Test.
>
> Rituals cannot reduce the effective Force of a spell for Drain purposes
> below
> 1. Ritual modifiers are applied before Drain Code modifiers. If the final
> result is less than 2, the Drain Target Number is considered to be 2. For
> example, a Powerbolt spell has a Drain of +1S. If the spell is cast at
Force
> 5 with two rituals, the effective Force for Drain is reduced to 3. The
final
> Drain Code for the spell is (3+1) = 4S.
>
> Rituals can only be used while the spellcaster is in physical form (
> including
> while using astral perception) because they rely on physical things and
> actions. Astrally projecting characters are made up of nothing more than
> Magic and Willpower and must use only those to resist Drain for any spells
> cast in astral form.
>
> The following rituals can be used for spellcasting. Shadowrun players are
> free to come up with new rituals for their magical characters but, as
always,
>
> the gamemaster has final say on whether or not any ritual is appropriate
for
> the campaign.
>
> Exclusive
> The spell with this ritual applied cannot be cast in combination with any
> other spell and the caster cannot maintain other spells or use other
magical
> skills while casting or sustaining this spell.

I have long since had this one argued over by more than a couple dozen
players over the years. Exclusive Spells vs. Exclusive Actions seem to be a
bit in the gray area at times. Shielding is considered one of these (I
forget which one off hand) for example. Also, how about turning on/off an
Anchoring? It isn't actually utilizing a skill, but does require some
measure of concentration.

>
> Fetish

<SNIP>

> Gesture
> The caster must gesture, dance or make similar movements while casting the
> spell. This requires the caster to be free to move. Such movements are
> easily
> noticed and preclude the use of Stealth.

Okay, then what about Kuji-kiri (spelling) the Ninja gesturing/hand dancing
mentioned in the Underworld Soucebook? Those gestures are designated as
Stealth oriented...I also have a Spider Shaman who uses a variation on
weaving (jacob's ladder toys) as a Centering technique...my request is, by
preclude the use of Stealth, what about Stealth itself?

> Incantation
> The caster must speak, sing or chant in a loud, firm voice while casting
the
> spell. This requires the caster to be free to speak. Such incantations are
> easily noticed and preclude the use of Stealth.

from Klingon Opera to Yak Yaking (Martians beware)

>
> Talisman
> The caster must have a material component, which is not consumed in the
> spellcasting. A talisman must be worn or carried to be useful. Talismans
> must
> be magically prepared for use like fetishes. Pre-made talismans are
> available
> from talismongers. Like fetishes, talismans are specific to a certain
> Category of spell and may be used for any spell of that Category.
>
> Example 1: Sammy the Burned-Out Mage has a Magic attribute of 2. He wants
to
<SNIP>
> Example 2: The manaball doesn't take out all of the gangers and they kick
<SNIP>

Question arises concerning Power Foci, or for that matter, any kind of
foci...

> GEASA
<SNIP>

> CENTERING
> Centering is the initiated version of rituals; a metamagical ability using

> an
> artistic Special Skill to focus the user's concentration and provide
> additional dice to reduce Drain. Centering requires a Simple Action to
> perform the required skill. Some Centering Skills can also fulfill geasa
or
> act as a ritual (see above). For example, an initiate who centers by
> chanting
> the medicine songs of his people could also fulfill an Incantation geas
and
> perform an Incantation ritual while centering. No more than one Centering
> Skill can be used at a time.

A question has come up by some of my players here, to which most of the time
I have said "NO", but what about using two different Centering Skills for an
overall complex action, such as summoning a Spirit in Great Form?

The books states that Centering for the Great Form quest is allowable, as is
summoning for drain initially. Help?

From:	"Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:57:17 -0500

Message no. 20 You wrote:
> First before I forget does centering count as it's own "magical activity?"
> Can someone center when casting an exclusive spell?
Centering merely augments spellcasting (or whatever) and does not produce an
effect on its own, and so is not a magical activity.

losthalo

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:56:30 -0700

Message no. 21 Losthalo Wrote:
| > First before I forget does centering count as it's own "magical
activity?"
| > Can someone center when casting an exclusive spell?
| Centering merely augments spellcasting (or whatever) and does not produce
an
| effect on its own, and so is not a magical activity.

The problem I find with that is that shielding and masking are both magical
activities that cannot be done when an exclusive spell is being done, and
they are metamagic just like centering...

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:07:38 -0400

Message no. 22 In a message dated 97-07-09 00:17:55 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:

>
> -Caric
>
> "If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
> is he still wrong?"
>
>
Probably...but only -she- would know..

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:11:38 -0400

Message no. 23 In a message dated 97-07-09 00:34:44 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:
> I still think that all of them should make it take longer if the spell
> isn't specifically designed to be cast that way...if the spell was learned
> as exclusive then that ritual would have to be used everytime the spell
was
> cast. The bonus would be there, but no other rituals could be added
unless
> the caster took the time to "mix in" the other ritualistic bits. (better
> Spike?)
>
> -Caric

True enough Caric, but the question that has come to me is "how much longer?"
I've used this in my home games for years now, and everyone has come to
understand it well enough, but exactly "how long" is "longer" seems to
always
come up for debate.
-K

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:06:19 -0700

Message no. 24 | > I still think that all of them should make it take longer if the spell
| > isn't specifically designed to be cast that way...if the spell was
learned
| > as exclusive then that ritual would have to be used everytime the
spell
| was
| > cast. The bonus would be there, but no other rituals could be added
| unless
| > the caster took the time to "mix in" the other ritualistic bits.
(better
| > Spike?)
| >
| > -Caric
|
| True enough Caric, but the question that has come to me is "how much
longer?"
| I've used this in my home games for years now, and everyone has come to
| understand it well enough, but exactly "how long" is "longer" seems
to
always
| come up for debate.
| -K

I would probably say one complex action per ritual, seeing as it takes a
simple action to push a fraggin' button. Some people will probably say
this is too harsh though.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:26:31 -0400

Message no. 25 In a message dated 97-07-09 04:44:28 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:

>
> | I'd also suggest that there might be another Ritual, Preparation (there
> | ought to
> | be a better name for it), which would involve lighting incense, drawing
> chalk
> | circles on the ground, and similar such activities. (It would not
> actually
> | require talismongered fetishes, which is why this isn't just a form of
> | expendable fetish.)
>
> For this particular gem i would increase the bonuses it infers. It could
> really help with that mind probe spell when it's doing 12D drain at force
> 6. Maybe "preparation" (I agree it needs a better name, but I couldn't
> think of one either :) could lower drain catagory by one and the TN by 2,
> but it would take several minutes to prepare...like say force+1D6 miutes.
>
> -Caric

In some circles (a pun!?!) the term is known as "Entailment" instead of
Preparation. Something I have done in the past for the Preparation of some
things, such as Ritual Sites and Conjuring circles, is that the number of net
successes achieved on the preparation work is usable as a bonus magic pool
for the operation itself.
-K

From:	Court Schuett <schuett@*****.IVCC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:44:11 -0500

Message no. 26 >The problem I find with that is that shielding and masking are both magical
>activities that cannot be done when an exclusive spell is being done, and
>they are metamagic just like centering...

Is there a page number for this, or is this just speculated. It's just
that I've never seen this. I'm wondering if this is an interpretation of
the Exclusive rules, or is it in the Grimthingy?
Thanks. :)

-=Court

/* Court Schuett, a totally modern boy.
schuett@*****.ivcc.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are you talking to me now or reading from a script?
What's that supposed to mean, you say you want to be yourself.
I don't think you even know just who the hell that is.
No, I don't think you have a clue just who the hell that is.
-Too Much Joy
*****************************************************************************/

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:23:38 EDT

Message no. 27 Caric wrote:

<>

Yeah, people like me:) How about a Free Action per ritual (since things
like speaking, gesturing, etc are listed as Free Actions).

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:42:53 -0400

Message no. 28 A general comment. It seems that everyone is concentrating on
modifying target numbers or levels. In general this has a
greater effect on balance. Have people considered adding dice
instead?

One of the things I did to reduce the power of magic in my game
was to change fetishes so they added dice not Force to a spell.
This had the effect of lowering the target number the target had
to resist, but gave the mages more dice to role. Ingeneral most
people still fail to stay awake from a force 6 stun ball, but
there are a few that have to be dealt with afterwords.

--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.

From:	Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:47:52 -0400

Message no. 29 On Jul 9, 9:23pm, John E Pederson wrote:
> Subject: Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
> Caric wrote:
>
> < a
> simple action to push a fraggin' button. Some people will probably say
> this is too harsh though.>>
>
> Yeah, people like me:) How about a Free Action per ritual (since things
> like speaking, gesturing, etc are listed as Free Actions).
>
> --
> -Canthros
> I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
> and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
> --Francis Bacon
> http://members.aol.com/canthros1
>-- End of excerpt from John E Pederson

Actually I'm leaning towards a couple of free actions
directly before casting the spell. This gives some warning
to others and makes the mage decide ahead of time what they
are going to do. All reasonable penalties for the benefits
of the ritual.

--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:48:45 -0800

Message no. 30 At 21:23 7/9/97 EDT, John E Pederson wrote:
>Caric wrote:
><simple action to push a fraggin' button. Some people will probably say
>this is too harsh though.>>

>Yeah, people like me:) How about a Free Action per ritual (since things
>like speaking, gesturing, etc are listed as Free Actions).

Speaking *a single word* is a Free Action, IIRC. Since SR isn't a
high-fantasy
world where True Names and Words of Power are extremely important (they're
just
[a] a way to get a Free Spirit by the short hairs and [b] completely
subjective),
I'd suggest that Complex Action rituals can be fairly quiet (muttering your
arcane incantations while moving fingers furtively), but Free Action rituals
must be very obvious (loudly declaiming your Word of Power, raising your
hand(s)
in front of you in a bold gesture).

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%

From:	"Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:24:02 -0500

Message no. 31 You wrote:
> A question has come up by some of my players here, to which most of the time
> I have said "NO", but what about using two different Centering Skills for
an
> overall complex action, such as summoning a Spirit in Great Form?

> The books states that Centering for the Great Form quest is allowable, as is
> summoning for drain initially. Help?
Allowable, yes. Stackable, no. Letting Centering types stack is munchym
sorry. Also, most actions that can benefit from Centering are Complex Actions
anyway... They're using their one Free Action of the phase to Center, and their
Complex Actions to cast, summon, whatevah.

losthalo

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:23:51 EST

Message no. 32 > Hmmm...I may be misreading this, but I do think that someone should
> be able to use their geas and other rituals at the same time, but I
> don't think that if gesturing is a caster geas that they should get
> a -1 to drain target as well as fulfill the geas with it. If they
> want to gesture to fulfill the geas and then cast the spell
> exclusively then more power to them.

But you forget that before it was required, they could use it to
decrease the drain anyway....so are making getting the geas that much
more harsh? They now need to do it to remove a penalty AND get no
bonus? That makes geasa much more cruel and
detrimental....basically, EVEN WHEN YOU FULFILL the geas, it hurts
you (because you can't get the bonus for the action). I think that
counter the intention of the Geas (a conditional penalty).

> Again with centering I say they can do it and other rituals, but the
> centering itself should count as one of the ritual. I shouldn't be
> able to center for successes and because my centering skill is
> gesturing I also get a -1 to drain TN...cantering is already "using"
> the gestures as part of it I say.

But How do you counter my earlier point....that no one will both
using Centering skills, since it is now more beneficial to simply get
the drain bonus without wasting the Karma for the (almost always)
lesser effect normal Centering provides?

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:32:26 EST

Message no. 33 > Allowable, yes. Stackable, no. Letting Centering types stack is
> munchym sorry. Also, most actions that can benefit from Centering
> are Complex Actions anyway... They're using their one Free Action of
> the phase to Center, and their Complex Actions to cast, summon,
> whatevah.

I'd agree, except to say that because of the added role-playing
effect (singing AND dancing is cooler than just one) I'd be a kind GM
and give him an Extra die. (Only 1, regardless of the skill....and
don't tell him why....just say his skill "is reduced" because he's
using two....if he's munchy, he'll keep spending Karma to get more,
hoping for another die. :) ) And that 1 die counts to the same
thing the rest of the centering does.

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:26:57 EST

Message no. 34 > Now that idea I can actually agree with Steve...it helps in some
> ways.
> Another option that is used here, is if a caster actually has the
> time to
> "build up" for the casting of a spell instead of the heat of combat,
> the drain target is reduced by 1 per complex action of time that
> goes by, similar to the "aiming" modifier used in firearms. The
> maximum it can be reduced is usually half the Intelligence OR the
> Sorcery Skill of the caster, whichever is LESS.

I like it. I made a similar House rule: A force modifier for
initiates....When they learned the spell, they could make it take
longer (up to turns equal to grade, number decided when spell is
learned) and subtract that number from the target number for the
drain. IT seemed pretty balanced, and definitelly adds to the
mysticism....it just seems to make sense that when your body gets
fragged by pitching this kind of power around, it's a little easier
on your to take your time.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:43:09 GMT

Message no. 35 Brett Borger writes

> detrimental....basically, EVEN WHEN YOU FULFILL the geas, it hurts
> you (because you can't get the bonus for the action). I think that
> counter the intention of the Geas (a conditional penalty).
>
As the system stands you can have a guesture Geas and then sing to
centre, fine, it was the though of folks getting to fulfil a guesture
Geas taken on a spell and get the befefit of centring for the same
gestures that was worrying.

> But How do you counter my earlier point....that no one will both
> using Centering skills, since it is now more beneficial to simply get
> the drain bonus without wasting the Karma for the (almost always)
> lesser effect normal Centering provides?
>
But centring affects drain from summong, penalties to TN's (very
useful particularly kocking DM's back from 6's to 4's it sustaining a
another spell, got a moderate wound etc.) and it is your choice at
the time you cast the spell wether to use centring or not with a geas
you decide when you learn it, mush less flexible.

Mark

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:22:35 GMT

Message no. 36 Brett Borger writes
> > Now that idea I can actually agree with Steve...it helps in some

> > "build up" for the casting of a spell instead of the heat of combat,
> > the drain target is reduced by 1 per complex action of time that
>
> I like it. I made a similar House rule: A force modifier for
> initiates....When they learned the spell, they could make it take
> longer (up to turns equal to grade, number decided when spell is
> learned) and subtract that number from the target number for the
> drain. IT seemed pretty balanced, and definitelly adds to the
> mysticism....it just seems to make sense that when your body gets
> fragged by pitching this kind of power around, it's a little easier
> on your to take your time.
>
On this how many people have seen the 'gathering magic rules'?
Shadowlore 1 i think if memory serves which give something like this
though the method of achieving it is quite different.

Mark

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:46:39 -0700

Message no. 37 | > For this particular gem i would increase the bonuses it infers. It
could
| > really help with that mind probe spell when it's doing 12D drain at
force
| > 6. Maybe "preparation" (I agree it needs a better name, but I
couldn't
| > think of one either :) could lower drain catagory by one and the TN by
2,
| > but it would take several minutes to prepare...like say force+1D6
miutes.

| In some circles (a pun!?!) the term is known as "Entailment" instead of
| Preparation. Something I have done in the past for the Preparation of
some
| things, such as Ritual Sites and Conjuring circles, is that the number of
net
| successes achieved on the preparation work is usable as a bonus magic
pool
| for the operation itself.

Hey that's not a bad idea...not bad at all. It's true that mages have
always had to set up those darn circles, but nothing was ever really done
with them.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:53:51 -0700

Message no. 38 Canthros wrote:

| <>
|
|
| Yeah, people like me:) How about a Free Action per ritual (since things
| like speaking, gesturing, etc are listed as Free Actions).

:)
Well I suppose it depends on how much you have to speak/gesture. Is it
just one word or pointing at your target? Would it be a free action per
ritual?

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:57:11 -0700

Message no. 39 Max Wrote:

| ><simple action to push a fraggin' button. Some people will probably say
| >this is too harsh though.>>
|
| >Yeah, people like me:) How about a Free Action per ritual (since things
| >like speaking, gesturing, etc are listed as Free Actions).
|
| Speaking *a single word* is a Free Action, IIRC. Since SR isn't a
| high-fantasy
| world where True Names and Words of Power are extremely important
(they're
| just
| [a] a way to get a Free Spirit by the short hairs and [b] completely
| subjective),
| I'd suggest that Complex Action rituals can be fairly quiet (muttering
your
| arcane incantations while moving fingers furtively), but Free Action
rituals
| must be very obvious (loudly declaiming your Word of Power, raising your
| hand(s)
| in front of you in a bold gesture).

Whoa Max!!! Don't to demonstrate that particular gesture...put the finger
away. ;-)

Anyway this is a pretty good idea also. That way if you do just one
ritual, you can still cast the spell that round, otherwise you have to wait
at least one action.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:51:48 -0700

Message no. 40 | >The problem I find with that is that shielding and masking are both
magical
| >activities that cannot be done when an exclusive spell is being done,
and
| >they are metamagic just like centering...
|
| Is there a page number for this, or is this just speculated. It's just
| that I've never seen this. I'm wondering if this is an interpretation of
| the Exclusive rules, or is it in the Grimthingy?
| Thanks. :)

The fact that centering is a metamagical ability just like shielding and
masking is in the grimmy, but as too whether or not it will interfere with
an exclusive spell isn't documented anywhere AKAIK. Spell defense cannot
be used when casting exclusive spells, so I would extend that limitation to
include shielding as well. Deliberate masking in and of itself is an
exclusive action and therefore cannot be done when a spell is being cast at
all. Normal masking I would say cannot be kept when trying to cast
exclusive spells also IMHO.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 12:53:15 -0700

Message no. 41 | > Hmmm...I may be misreading this, but I do think that someone should
| > be able to use their geas and other rituals at the same time, but I
| > don't think that if gesturing is a caster geas that they should get
| > a -1 to drain target as well as fulfill the geas with it. If they
| > want to gesture to fulfill the geas and then cast the spell
| > exclusively then more power to them.
|
| But you forget that before it was required, they could use it to
| decrease the drain anyway....so are making getting the geas that much
| more harsh? They now need to do it to remove a penalty AND get no
| bonus? That makes geasa much more cruel and
| detrimental....basically, EVEN WHEN YOU FULFILL the geas, it hurts
| you (because you can't get the bonus for the action). I think that
| counter the intention of the Geas (a conditional penalty).

A geasa should be a detriment period IMO...they shouldn't get any kind of
bonus for doing something that they have to do anyway. If they want the
bonus they can still use another ritual, but if he person didn't want a
geas they shouldn't have put in the extra ware, or been more careful. Now
this may seem harsh, but they can get rid of the geas later with initiation
and, why bother if you do it anyway and get a bonus for it?

| > Again with centering I say they can do it and other rituals, but the
| > centering itself should count as one of the ritual. I shouldn't be
| > able to center for successes and because my centering skill is
| > gesturing I also get a -1 to drain TN...cantering is already "using"
| > the gestures as part of it I say.
|
| But How do you counter my earlier point....that no one will both
| using Centering skills, since it is now more beneficial to simply get
| the drain bonus without wasting the Karma for the (almost always)
| lesser effect normal Centering provides?

I think that you and I have had much different experiences with centering
then. Centering is probably one of the most powerful metamagical abilities
in our game, it is worth FAR more than -1 to your drain target number.
Centering skills cost karma yes, but overall the benefits are definately
worth it.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:17:44 EST

Message no. 42 > A geasa should be a detriment period IMO...they shouldn't get any
> kind of bonus for doing something that they have to do anyway. If
> they want the bonus they can still use another ritual, but if he
> person didn't want a geas they shouldn't have put in the extra ware,
> or been more careful. Now this may seem harsh, but they can get rid
> of the geas later with initiation and, why bother if you do it
> anyway and get a bonus for it?

Because the Bonus isn't anything special in this case....the bonus is
something you would have had ANYWAY. It's the same idea of Geasa
now:

If you do it, no penalty
If you don't, penalty.

With the new system you'd have the same modifiers as without the NEED
for the geas only if you did it.

Your argument is valid if the geas only give benefits to those who
need it, but since the benefit goes all around, it seems strange to
REMOVE the benefit when you make it (semi) mandatory.

> | But How do you counter my earlier point....that no one will both
> | using Centering skills, since it is now more beneficial to simply get
> | the drain bonus without wasting the Karma for the (almost always)
> | lesser effect normal Centering provides?
>
> I think that you and I have had much different experiences with
> centering then. Centering is probably one of the most powerful
> metamagical abilities in our game, it is worth FAR more than -1 to
> your drain target number. Centering skills cost karma yes, but
> overall the benefits are definately worth it.

Maybe. In My experience, by the time you spend enough Karma to get a
decent skill, you can get:
2 extra successes at target 4 for drain OR success
or -1 target if your target is 5+.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 17:50:00 EDT

Message no. 43 On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:53:51 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:

>:)
>Well I suppose it depends on how much you have to speak/gesture. Is
>it
>just one word or pointing at your target? Would it be a free action
>per
>ritual?

<shrug> I think Max Rible's suggestion is a good way of doing this (IOW,
I hadn't given it much thought before posting:)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:45:35 -0700

Message no. 44 | > I think that you and I have had much different experiences with
| > centering then. Centering is probably one of the most powerful
| > metamagical abilities in our game, it is worth FAR more than -1 to
| > your drain target number. Centering skills cost karma yes, but
| > overall the benefits are definately worth it.
|
| Maybe. In My experience, by the time you spend enough Karma to get a
| decent skill, you can get:
| 2 extra successes at target 4 for drain OR success
| or -1 target if your target is 5+.

Well if you are resisting deadly drain and your willpower is only a
four...then they extra dice could be very handy. Plus centering is far
more versatile.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:51:47 -0400

Message no. 45 In a message dated 97-07-10 01:02:52 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:

>
> The problem I find with that is that shielding and masking are both
magical
> activities that cannot be done when an exclusive spell is being done, and
> they are metamagic just like centering...
>
>
> -Caric

Actually, that's only partially correct. Shielding is an exclusive action,
while Masking is an automatic one. -ACTIVE- use of Masking, such as to mask
another object or being is an exclusive action. Centering precedes the
actual casting of a given spell or calling of a particular entity, thus it
can be used in conjunction with exclusive magic.
-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:04:41 -0400

Message no. 46 In a message dated 97-07-10 02:18:10 EDT, westln@***.EDU (Lorden) writes:

>
> One of the things I did to reduce the power of magic in my game
> was to change fetishes so they added dice not Force to a spell.
> This had the effect of lowering the target number the target had
> to resist, but gave the mages more dice to role. Ingeneral most
> people still fail to stay awake from a force 6 stun ball, but
> there are a few that have to be dealt with afterwords.
>
> -
Actually Lorden, this topic was a massive argument on rec.games.frp.cyber
about 1-2 months ago concerning the wording of the rule concerning "Net
Force" for fetishes and the like. I have always interpreted it in such a way
that a fetish didn't actually change the force of a given spell, unless it
was designed that way specifically. Other people have taken it for the
direct wording in the text (BBB), which makes fetishes and the like really
overbalancing IMO.
-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:17:34 -0400

Message no. 47 In a message dated 97-07-10 03:31:37 EDT, westln@***.EDU (Lorden) writes:

>
> Actually I'm leaning towards a couple of free actions
> directly before casting the spell. This gives some warning
> to others and makes the mage decide ahead of time what they
> are going to do. All reasonable penalties for the benefits
> of the ritual.
>
Now this brings up an idea...as Centering (as an example) is a Free Action,
and since so many people use languages...Centering may qualify for more than
a single Free Action, remembering that it's one word per free action
(ignoring run-ons here)...could some of the rituals and/or metamagics require
more than one Free Action to enact?
-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:04:40 -0400

Message no. 48 In a message dated 97-07-10 22:36:53 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:

> Allowable, yes. Stackable, no. Letting Centering types stack is munchym
> sorry. Also, most actions that can benefit from Centering are Complex
> Actions
> anyway... They're using their one Free Action of the phase to Center, and
> their
> Complex Actions to cast, summon, whatevah.
>
> losthalo

I'm Sorry halo, got me confused...I meant that they use one centering skill
for the first test and a second, different, skill for the second test...I'm a
master at knowing what is stackable and what isn't...
-K

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date:	Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:19:16 EDT

Message no. 49 On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:32:31 -0700 mike.paff@*****.COM writes:

>This reminds me of a question I have regarding centering. When casting
>an area effect combat spell and centering vs penalties, which TN is used
>to determine the results of the centering? I can think of several
>possibilities, but I'm not sure which one is correct:
>
> 1) The TN corresponding to the target the spell is centered on,
> 2) The highest TN in the group,
> 3) The lowest TN in the group (yeah, right), or
> 4) The average of the TNs in the group.
>
>Any opinions? Which option is used in your groups?

Why not on a case by case basis.... roll your centering dice (and don't
move them), figure out all the T#'s for the area spell and adjust
accordingly based on the successes for each T#.

That is, if you roll like 5 dice for centering (and you get 8,6,4,3,2)
and your targets have (lets just pick a mana spell) willpowers (plus
modifiers for visibiliyt or something) of 5,2, 3... then you have 2
successes against the T# 5, 5 successes against the t# 2, and 3 against
the T# 3. Adjust the T#'s accordingly then roll your spell success test.

~Tim

From:	"Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals
Date:	Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:58:25 -0500

Message no. 50 You wrote:

> I'm Sorry halo, got me confused...I meant that they use one centering skill
> for the first test and a second, different, skill for the second test...I'm a
> master at knowing what is stackable and what isn't...

Meaning one to reduce penalties and one to resist drain? But... I thought that
was specifically disallowed, or are you talking about something else?

losthalo

Message no. 51 In a message dated 97-07-11 01:52:12 EDT, M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk (Mark
Steedman) writes:

<snipped suggestions for "taking your time spellcasting"
> >
> On this how many people have seen the 'gathering magic rules'?
> Shadowlore 1 i think if memory serves which give something like this
> though the method of achieving it is quite different.
>
> Mark

I haven't, but then I also haven't found/read the RN archives yet either...if
such exist...
-K

Message no. 52 In a message dated 97-07-11 13:12:29 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:

> net
> | successes achieved on the preparation work is usable as a bonus magic
> pool
> | for the operation itself.
>
> Hey that's not a bad idea...not bad at all. It's true that mages have
> always had to set up those darn circles, but nothing was ever really done
> with them.
>
> -Caric
>
Oh my god!!! Caric liked my idea ( a tear coming to my eye ... "Nicki, quit
wagging your tail in my face..")

"It was nothing" (claims the enchanter adept whose been around for a while)
-K

Message no. 53 In a message dated 97-07-11 15:34:14 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:

> > I'm Sorry halo, got me confused...I meant that they use one centering
> skill
> > for the first test and a second, different, skill for the second
test...I'
> m a
> > master at knowing what is stackable and what isn't...
>
> Meaning one to reduce penalties and one to resist drain? But... I thought

> that
> was specifically disallowed, or are you talking about something else?
>
> losthalo
>
>
In a great form summoning, there is the conjuring drain for the initial
spirit and the great form "drain" for the quest. One centering skill for
each test.
-K

Message no. 54 J. Keith Henry said on 11:33/12 Jul 97...

> I haven't, but then I also haven't found/read the RN archives yet either...if
> such exist...

FTP to listproc.itribe.net and browse around a bit, AFAIK all the logs are
there, even going back to the early days of the list.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forget about the ones who "have it all."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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