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Message no. 1
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
Subject: [SR3] Things that always annoyed you in SR2....
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:57:30 GMT
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Hi Everyone !

It occured to me that there were several things in SR2 that were
annoying because it was just plain stupid or you happened to know more
about the topic than the designers of the game... so let's collect
things that are worth being changed here.

1.) White Phosphorous Damage Code:
Giving White Phosphorous a damage level of "L" is pretty
stupid. A person who gets burned would have third grade burns
within fractions of a second and there is no way he could be saved
today (although there might be one in the future... but only with
MASSIVE treatment within really short time) and he would be so totally
shocked from the first moment that he sure as hell would not think
clear enough how to get rid of it... WP is something REALLY
nasty. Against Vehicles it is pretty damn effective, as well. If they
aren't totally sealed they will suck in the flames and simply cook
their passengers... so increasing the damage level to "S" (at least)
would be a good idea.

2.) Description of Thermographic sight:
It always claims that with IR you could only see rough shapes or big
objects that differ a lot in temperature... this was true for the
IR cameras years ago, yes, but have a look at that new IR camera they
just built, this gives you an example of how the world would look in
IR. Even a simple window (in the shadow, not been touched for a long
time) looks like a one coloured rainbow in IR just due to microscopic
differences in the material. They can SEE leaks in water pipes 2
meters below a street... the IR spectrum is about 4 times as wide as
the usual visible light and spotting differences of 0.1 degrees is as
easy as seeing the difference between dark and light green... taking
this into account and combining it with the fact that NOTHING has
exactly one temperature for more than a few square centimeters (and
that would be a LOT) PLUS the three dimensional view of the
(meta-)human eye, a person with IR would spot pretty much anything a
person in the usual spectrum would. If it weren't for heat traces in
the air and the like, you'd probably see much more.
The modifier for natural/technical IR should be increased though. Just
imagine: You "translate" that big IR spectrum into the usual visible
light spectrum so the brain of the user can access the information:
This means he loses a factor 4 in details against someone with natural
vision.
O.k. - enough ranting about this, but I just wanted to have it said
once...

These are two things that always annoyed me because they are so far
off from reality... anyone else has got things that he finds annoying
(range of guns is one thing that comes to my mind here) ?

Later,
Georg

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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Message no. 2
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Things that always annoyed you in SR2....
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:51:31 +0100
In message <ufzprm9f1x.fsf@*******.hanse.de>, "Shadowrun ML demon
<shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>" <shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE> writes
>
>1.) White Phosphorous Damage Code:
>Giving White Phosphorous a damage level of "L" is pretty
>stupid. A person who gets burned would have third grade burns
>within fractions of a second and there is no way he could be saved
>today (although there might be one in the future...but only with
>MASSIVE treatment within really short time) and he would be so totally
>shocked from the first moment that he sure as hell would not think
>clear enough how to get rid of it... WP is something REALLY
>nasty.

It's nasty, but far from being utterly and totally fatal. WP casualties
survive quite nicely today.

Remember, it's not just you: you have team-mates to help you and they,
too, can administer treatment,

> Against Vehicles it is pretty damn effective, as well. If they
>aren't totally sealed they will suck in the flames and simply cook
>their passengers...

They'll only suck the flame into the engine compartment, if that. WP
isn't effective against any military vehicle tougher than a truck (even
Land Rovers can shrug it off)

>so increasing the damage level to "S" (at least)
>would be a good idea.

Disagree. The burning damage is more realistic. Remember, unless you're
carrying the grenade when it explodes, you're only being hit by a few
pieces, not coated head-to-toe.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: "Shadowrun ML demon <shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>"
Subject: Re: [SR3] Things that always annoyed you in SR2....
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 17:15:27 GMT
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"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
> It's nasty, but far from being utterly and totally fatal. WP casualties
> survive quite nicely today.

Uhm - I find this pretty hard to believe, I have to admit. As far as I
know having about 40% of your skin burned to third degree is already
lethal and even hot water can cause third degree burns without any
problems. So something that is sticky and burns a few hundred degrees
(what IS the exact temperature, btw.) is causing third degree burns
within fractions of a second... someone surviving being splashed with
that stuff (without any special equipment, of course). Maybe if you
only got a few drops... but whatever has been hit got a third degree
burn, so if more than 40% of the body has been hit you are dead.

> Remember, it's not just you: you have team-mates to help you and they,
> too, can administer treatment,

Yeah - but there is hardly anything you can do once a certain amount
of skin has been burned... at least not nowadays. I could imagine,
though, that in the future you'd have tanks with some special liquid
that could take over the functions of the skin until the body had a
chance to regenerate.

> > Against Vehicles it is pretty damn effective, as well. If they
> >aren't totally sealed they will suck in the flames and simply cook
> >their passengers...
> They'll only suck the flame into the engine compartment, if that. WP
> isn't effective against any military vehicle tougher than a truck (even
> Land Rovers can shrug it off)

Uhm. So what happens to the electronics and the rubber & plastic parts
of the engine when they get exposed to flames that burn at several
hundret degrees... my experience is that plastic, rubber and
electronics don't really like this.

> >so increasing the damage level to "S" (at least)
> >would be a good idea.
> Disagree. The burning damage is more realistic. Remember, unless you're
> carrying the grenade when it explodes, you're only being hit by a few
> pieces, not coated head-to-toe.

O.k. - first: We are not talking about the explosion damage, right ?
The grenade affects an area of 10 meters diameter (considering a loss
of power niveau of 1/.5m - I wasn't able to find any other statement
about the area covered by a WP grenade) and things in the center most
probably get pretty much splashed... otherwise the reach wouldn't be
as far.

So I can imagine that people/objects outside the core of the explosion
have a good chance of survival (although they probably get seriously
hurt), but in the core of the explosion ? I don't think so. A damage
code of "L" for burning white phosphorus on your skin is far too
low. Of course you can always have luck and roll down the damage, you
could try to extinguish it, your teammates could help you and so on, but
survival should be the result of these factors and not being granted
by the weapon itself...

Of course I know that you have more knowledge about weapons than I do,
but if you say people "survive easily" through an attack by white
phosphorus I'd like to know more about the factors that led to his
survival.

Later,
Georg

- --
Georg C. F. Greve <greve@*******.hanse.de>
http://porter.desy.de/~greve/
"People who fight may lose. People who do not
fight have already lost." -- Bertold Brecht

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Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: [SR3] Things that always annoyed you in SR2....
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:15:16 +0100
In message <ufracv6k0g.fsf@*******.hanse.de>, "Shadowrun ML demon
<shadowrn-ml@*******.hanse.de>" <shadowrn-ml@*******.HANSE.DE> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
>> It's nasty, but far from being utterly and totally fatal. WP casualties
>> survive quite nicely today.
>
>Uhm - I find this pretty hard to believe, I have to admit. As far as I
>know having about 40% of your skin burned to third degree is already
>lethal and even hot water can cause third degree burns without any
>problems. So something that is sticky and burns a few hundred degrees
>(what IS the exact temperature, btw.) is causing third degree burns
>within fractions of a second... someone surviving being splashed with
>that stuff (without any special equipment, of course). Maybe if you
>only got a few drops... but whatever has been hit got a third degree
>burn, so if more than 40% of the body has been hit you are dead.

Sure: but look at the size of a WP grenade. It's the size of a soft-
drink can. If you're ten feet from it when it bursts, you're going to
catch a few chunks, not get covered over 40% of your body.

Secondly, the WP has to burn through your clothing and equipment.
Webbing gear and body armour will stop WP burns nicely, as will a
helmet.

Even your fatigues are fire-retardant (or at least British Army combats
are) so small pieces of WP won't turn you into a human torch.

>> Remember, it's not just you: you have team-mates to help you and they,
>> too, can administer treatment,
>
>Yeah - but there is hardly anything you can do once a certain amount
>of skin has been burned... at least not nowadays. I could imagine,
>though, that in the future you'd have tanks with some special liquid
>that could take over the functions of the skin until the body had a
>chance to regenerate.

Again, the problem is getting enough of the skin burned.

>> They'll only suck the flame into the engine compartment, if that. WP
>> isn't effective against any military vehicle tougher than a truck (even
>> Land Rovers can shrug it off)
>
>Uhm. So what happens to the electronics and the rubber & plastic parts
>of the engine when they get exposed to flames that burn at several
>hundret degrees... my experience is that plastic, rubber and
>electronics don't really like this.

The engine doesn't get directly exposed to the flame. Look at some of
the news from Northern Ireland: we've been building Land Rovers to shrug
off petrol bombs for decades. The biggest problem is seeing where you're
going through the flames :)

>> Disagree. The burning damage is more realistic. Remember, unless you're
>> carrying the grenade when it explodes, you're only being hit by a few
>> pieces, not coated head-to-toe.
>
>O.k. - first: We are not talking about the explosion damage, right ?
>The grenade affects an area of 10 meters diameter (considering a loss
>of power niveau of 1/.5m - I wasn't able to find any other statement
>about the area covered by a WP grenade) and things in the center most
>probably get pretty much splashed... otherwise the reach wouldn't be
>as far.

If it's right next to you, you're dead.

If it's ten feet away, you're in terrible pain and out of combat for
some time... but you'll almost certainly survive.

>So I can imagine that people/objects outside the core of the explosion
>have a good chance of survival (although they probably get seriously
>hurt), but in the core of the explosion ? I don't think so. A damage
>code of "L" for burning white phosphorus on your skin is far too
>low.

By standard SR rules, a fragmentation grenade at zero range cannot kill
you...

>Of course I know that you have more knowledge about weapons than I do,
>but if you say people "survive easily" through an attack by white
>phosphorus I'd like to know more about the factors that led to his
>survival.

Basically, the fact that WP is less lethal than is widely supposed.

It _does_ create horrific, incapacitating injuries that scare the hell
out of anyone nearby, and it does present significant challenges for
medical treatment, but Falklands experience (where both sides made some
use of WP weapons) indicated that fatalities were low.

It's easier to treat and recover from burns, than it is from deep
fragmentation wounds.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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