Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: SR3 wish
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:04:09 PST
One thing I'd very muchlike to see in SR3 is a re-write of the melee
combat resolution system order so that damage staging is computed AFTER
the body reistance roll, as with firearms.

As it stands, damage is staged per net succeses, then resisted. Even
very skilled attackers, without a high power melee attack, can not harm
high body opponents. Anybody with a body of 8+ in good armor is quite
safe from ALL unarmed, natural human attacks, even though jointlocks and
the like could still inflict good damage if well executed. No sort of
armor I'm aware of protects you from having your arm twisted behind your
back, where minimal strength can be aplied to break bone!

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: SR3 wish
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:11:30 -0700
Mon goose wrote:
/
/ One thing I'd very muchlike to see in SR3 is a re-write of the melee
/ combat resolution system order so that damage staging is computed AFTER
/ the body reistance roll, as with firearms.
/
/ As it stands, damage is staged per net succeses, then resisted. Even
/ very skilled attackers, without a high power melee attack, can not harm
/ high body opponents. Anybody with a body of 8+ in good armor is quite
/ safe from ALL unarmed, natural human attacks, even though jointlocks and
/ the like could still inflict good damage if well executed. No sort of
/ armor I'm aware of protects you from having your arm twisted behind your
/ back, where minimal strength can be aplied to break bone!

I like it because it's very cinematic. And think about the example you
gave - Body of 8 with good armor. That's one tough dude :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 wish
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:58:50 PST
>/ One thing I'd very much like to see in SR3 is a re-write of the melee
>/ combat resolution system order so that damage staging is computed
AFTER
>/ the body reistance roll, as with firearms.

>I like it because it's very cinematic. And think about the example you
>gave - Body of 8 with good armor. That's one tough dude :)

The example I gave is representative of almost any PC samurai. Mongoose
is a fraking ELF with no cyber body-boosters, and has a body of 8 (karma
and suprathyroid). He commonly wears leather, a jacket, and forearm
guards. Yeah, he's tough, and ready to rumble, But Joe Sensei, the
physad with a bajillion melee dice and 6 strength, should be a threat to
him even unarmed.

As it stands, he isn't, without a katana or some other nasty weapon.
It's partly a rule that came out of a big samurai VS physical adept
debate, since samurai *can* get more impact armor and higher power
attacks, they can hurt each other unarmed, but *generally* adepts can't
get through thier "tough hides", even if they have much better skill.

I'ts also nice to give folks a chance in melee vs flesh form bugs, who
genally have very good body and armorin adition to worn armor, but not
over whelming skill. If I get 6 net succeses with my Combat ax, I want
the bug to have to roll 6 to be just taking a serious, not to take a
LIGHT. It also makes killing hands MUCH more worth while-
otherwise,justget extra dice, because you NEED to win the combat, and
extra succeses beyond that do no good once damage is staged to deadly.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 4
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR3 wish
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:30:11 -0500
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Mon goose wrote:

> >/ One thing I'd very much like to see in SR3 is a re-write of the melee
> >/ combat resolution system order so that damage staging is computed
> AFTER
> >/ the body reistance roll, as with firearms.
>
> >I like it because it's very cinematic. And think about the example you
> >gave - Body of 8 with good armor. That's one tough dude :)
>
> The example I gave is representative of almost any PC samurai. Mongoose
> is a fraking ELF with no cyber body-boosters, and has a body of 8 (karma
> and suprathyroid). He commonly wears leather, a jacket, and forearm
> guards. Yeah, he's tough, and ready to rumble, But Joe Sensei, the
> physad with a bajillion melee dice and 6 strength, should be a threat to
> him even unarmed.
Well, first, melee attacks should go against impact, not ballistic armor,
so leather would not offer much protection. Forearm guards, as well,
should only be used to protect against attacks to the forearm. Usefull for
a character who wants to use his hands to parry, nearly useless otherwise.

The real problem, however, comes from unarmed combat, which needs to be
more damaging. Called shots, throws, takedowns and submission moves can
all be used to even things out a bit.
A choke hold, for example, should do cumulative
damage over a number of turns, as well as increase the target number for
resisting the damage. The first phase the hold is applied, it does, say,
(Str)M stun, the next phase, (Str+1)M, and so on. Characters would make
opposed strength tests to see if the choke is broken or held.
Basic attacks, like kicks and punches should have only a +2 TN rather than
+4 for called shots, as it is much easier to aim. Thus, a swift knee to
the balls would take down even the toughest sammy, unless he happened to
be wearing a cup or other protection in the groin area.
Finally, throws and takedowns, if successful, should cost the victim a
complex action, regardless of whether any damage was done.

These are just a few things I came up with off the top of my head, but
they should hopefully give the physads and other martial-arts types a
fighting chance.
Message no. 5
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: SR3 wish
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:35:28 +0000
On 21 Nov 97, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> >I like it because it's very cinematic. And think about the example you
> >gave - Body of 8 with good armor. That's one tough dude :)
>
> The example I gave is representative of almost any PC samurai.
> Mongoose is a fraking ELF with no cyber body-boosters, and has a
> body of 8 (karma and suprathyroid). He commonly wears leather, a
> jacket, and forearm guards. Yeah, he's tough, and ready to rumble,
> But Joe Sensei, the physad with a bajillion melee dice and 6
> strength, should be a threat to him even unarmed.

<snip>

Well, I agree with you on that one. I mean, when the first unarmed
combat came up, my GM looked that rule up, we talked for a while and
then the rule was promptly scrapped in favour of net successes
resolution...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
You know what the odds are against a Chaos Lord coming this far to go two out of three
with a Dweller? - Scrof
One out of one should be enough. - Merlin, Chaos-formed
Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 wish
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:42:42 PST
>> The example I gave is representative of almost any PC samurai.
Mongoose
>> is a fraking ELF with no cyber body-boosters, and has a body of 8
(karma
>> and suprathyroid). He commonly wears leather, a jacket, and forearm
>> guards. Yeah, he's tough, and ready to rumble, But Joe Sensei, the
>> physad with a bajillion melee dice and 6 strength, should be a threat
to
>> him even unarmed.

>Well, first, melee attacks should go against impact, not ballistic
armor, so leather would not offer much protection. Forearm guards, as
well, should only be used to protect against attacks to the
forearm.Usefull for a character who wants to use his hands to parry,
>nearly useless otherwise.

Leather IS impact armor! (0/2). Combined with the jacket, that is 5/4,
and the guards give +1 impact vs ALL melee, as it is assumed you make
some attempt to parry- you do roll your counter attack in most every
situtation.

> The real problem, however, comes from unarmed combat, which needs to
be more damaging. Called shots, throws, takedowns and submission moves
can all be used to even things out a bit.

A called shot in melee is a fancy way to stick your neck out- I'd never
risk a +4 TN on an OPPOSED test. They work sometimes if you make an
unopposed attack, which is realistic. Subdual has the same problem,
plus you only infict subdual damage as normal (impact armor counts just
as well)

>A choke hold, for example, should do cumulative
>damage over a number of turns, as well as increase the target number
for resisting the damage. The first phase the hold is applied, it does,
say, (Str)M stun, the next phase, (Str+1)M, and so on. Characters would
make opposed strength tests to see if the choke is broken or held. Basic
attacks, like kicks and punches should have only a +2 TN rather than +4
for called shots, as it is much easier to aim. Thus, a swift knee to the
balls would take down even the toughest sammy, unless he happened to be
wearing a cup or other protection in the groin area. Finally, throws and
takedowns, if successful, should cost the victim a complex action,
regardless of whether any damage was done.
>

Well, yeah, all sort sorts of things SHOULD be effective in melee, but
by the rules, ain't. I SHOULD be able to graple a dude in miltayr armor
and put him in a really nasty jointlock (if i'm stronger or faster than
him), but by the RULES, I'd have to be godzilla to get trough his armor.

I wrote up a set of rules that list special skills that allow attacks
with these various effects (the skill limits combat pool use), and sent
them to Shadowland, which means they get sent to FASA also. They seemed
a little interested,but are very slow on mail response. I figured that
was the simplist fix, because no new melee rules, Tn's, manuvers, and
"styles" were needed, just new skill descriptions. Anybody know the
Shadowland editors E-mail?

>These are just a few things I came up with off the top of my head, but
they should hopefully give the physads and other martial-arts types a
fighting chance.
>

Some of the skills I made gave you a VERY good shot, If you had high
enough levels. Even by just changing staging, Martial artests do OK, by
and large, given thier lack of range, but thier inability to do certain
basic combat things (like graple,disarm, etc) is quite anoying. At
least with unlimited staging they can take out mageswith armor spells,
and such. The fact that REALLY high skill is only important against
other very skilled opponents, or for beating unreasonable penalties, is
annoying.


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SR3 wish, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!