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Message no. 1
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Wishlist ("dodging" shots)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:43:21 PST
>It should be easier for the heavily armored character to dodge
*becuase* dodging includes taking attacks on areas that are armored
enough to blunt the attack completely or deflect it without taking
damage. This is why armor reduces the target number to dodge. A "clean
miss" occurs when the character's armor deflects the attack completely,
or the attack simply does not connect. IMO.

>I think an uninjured character, with no penalties, should have a hard
time dodging gunfire. Distractions, wounds, and other problems should
make it nigh impossible.

>But I would say it's difficult to 'present a bad target', in general,
>unless that's all you're doing (i.e. not taking actions on your turn
just dodging).

>Again, dodging includes making your armor work for you so the attack
>doesn't get a good enough biting agnle to penetrate.
>

Do you see, with the sections you commented on snipped, how
completely self contadicting your argument is?

"dodging includes taking attacks on areas that are armored"
"it's difficult to 'present a bad target'"

If your "angling" your armor, what are you doing but presenting a
difficult target?
If you can move a bit to "use your armor effectively (implies you
know where the bullet is hitting and can react in time), why not move a
tiny bit more and just have it MISS.
Don't tell me your using combat pool to simulate standing at the
proper angle relative to the shooter BEFORE he shoots- what if two
opponents are seperated by 90 degrees? You have to react to use
yourarmor vs both.
And does the unarmored combatant angle his body to stop the bullet
with a les vulnearable part? Why then the clean miss rule? How about
the lady in 1 point ballistic shawl? the guy in 2 point ballistic
clothing? It gets silly.

All these issues lead us to addopt a flat,, upwardly modifiable TN
for combat pool dice in a damage resistance test, which usaully reaches
5-7, ie challenging to difficult. Don't tell me it should be "nearly
impossible"- thats TN 10+, and most weapons don't have a power that
high, so even the stock rules make it easier than that BEFORE armor is
taken into acount. If your at all lucky, with moderate armor the TN is
4-7. Lower for small wepons.

BYW, we do have a rule for "actively" presenting a hard target- roll
athletics dice, and keep the results in front of you (you need some
extra dice). For any incoming shot, every two succeses you have vs its
"dodge" tn takes one off the firers succeces. Karma re-rolls are
allowed at any point, and you roll seperate dice and replace any you
want from the results. This is a complex action (use athletics skill),
and lasts until your next action. Watch the physad bounce past the
machine gun- hows that for Cinematic "anime" level unrealism? OTOH, it
gives a reason for the atletics skill to exist. In fact, its still
pretty easy to hit somebody doing this out in the open, but not so easy
to hurt them real bad. Of course, once they are injured, the tn
penalties aply...

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 2
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Wishlist ("dodging" shots)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:10:08 -0500
At 11:43 AM 10/30/97 PST, you wrote:
> Do you see, with the sections you commented on snipped, how
>completely self contadicting your argument is?

Well then how's this?
1) when you attempt to dodge, you are not only trying to avoid the round or
attack, if you cannot manage that you are trying to take the attack on the
least vulnerable areas of your body. Note the word 'trying'.
2) Despite what you are *trying* to do, I still think it is difficult to
avoid an attack in this way. If you are in the open, and someone fires a
weapon at you, it is unlikely that you will be able to either anticipate
the attack and avoid it, or make yourself a much poorer target by moving.

Clear? I do know what I'm saying, but perhaps its easier to see if it's
not chopped into bits.
Message no. 3
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR3 Wishlist ("dodging" shots)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:27:20 -0500
> Do you see, with the sections you commented on snipped, how
>completely self contadicting your argument is?

Taking statements out of context rarely makes things clearer.

> Don't tell me your using combat pool to simulate standing at the
>proper angle relative to the shooter BEFORE he shoots- what if two
>opponents are seperated by 90 degrees? You have to react to use
>yourarmor vs both.

I didn't say you were doing that before the shooter fired. That's your
assumption.

> And does the unarmored combatant angle his body to stop the bullet
>with a les vulnearable part? Why then the clean miss rule? How about
>the lady in 1 point ballistic shawl? the guy in 2 point ballistic
>clothing? It gets silly.

Someone with little armor probably just tries to move as fast as possible,
hoping that the firer won't lead them properly, and miss. But armors with
hardened plates definitely have stronger and weaker points, and tring to
keep the weaker points away from the guy doing the shooting is a good idea,
yes?
>
> All these issues lead us to addopt a flat,, upwardly modifiable TN
>for combat pool dice in a damage resistance test, which usaully reaches
>5-7, ie challenging to difficult. Don't tell me it should be "nearly
>impossible"- thats TN 10+, and most weapons don't have a power that
>high, so even the stock rules make it easier than that BEFORE armor is
>taken into acount. If your at all lucky, with moderate armor the TN is
>4-7. Lower for small wepons.

I didn't say 'nearly impossble'(10) either. I was figuring more around 6
for a base, since you're at a disadvantage (moving around a lot still
doesn't hurt the chances of someone shooting at you all that much, IMO).
>
>BYW, we do have a rule for "actively" presenting a hard target- roll
>athletics dice, and keep the results in front of you (you need some
>extra dice). For any incoming shot, every two succeses you have vs its
>"dodge" tn takes one off the firers succeces. Karma re-rolls are
>allowed at any point, and you roll seperate dice and replace any you
>want from the results. This is a complex action (use athletics skill),
>and lasts until your next action. Watch the physad bounce past the
>machine gun- hows that for Cinematic "anime" level unrealism?

And for that reason I don't really care for it. :) I think anime is
interesting, but not a good idea for SR inspiration in this department...

OTOH, it
>gives a reason for the atletics skill to exist. In fact, its still
>pretty easy to hit somebody doing this out in the open, but not so easy
>to hurt them real bad. Of course, once they are injured, the tn
>penalties aply...

Athletics can be a very useful skill anyway. Samurai I play tend to have
it for things like climbing over chainlink fences, dropping off of
not-so-high-heights, and a variety of other things... It doesn't need to
become a dodging skill, though it could be taken as such if you want one.
Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: SR3 Wishlist ("dodging" shots)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:25:23 +0000
In article <3.0.3.16.19971030031541.46ff5604@**********.com>, losthalo
<losthalo@********.COM> writes
>1) when you attempt to dodge, you are not only trying to avoid the round or
>attack, if you cannot manage that you are trying to take the attack on the
>least vulnerable areas of your body. Note the word 'trying'.

>2) Despite what you are *trying* to do, I still think it is difficult to
>avoid an attack in this way. If you are in the open, and someone fires a
>weapon at you, it is unlikely that you will be able to either anticipate
>the attack and avoid it, or make yourself a much poorer target by moving.

Personal experience... the best countermeasure to someone with a rifle
was accurate aimed fire. High-velocity jacketed lead and chunks of
masonry whistling past his face will spoil his aim. A 7.62mm ball round
in the chest will _really_ spoil his aim.


And, again experience, a moving target is hard to hit even at point-
blank range. Stand still and you're dead. Drop to one knee and you halve
the target area. Drop prone and you reduce it to less than a quarter.
Move and find cover and it's surprisingly hard to allow the right
deflection for a running target.

Or move, fast. Most of the FIBUA training I got consisted of combining
movement and fire, usually right after a grenade exploded in the room we
wanted to clear.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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