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Message no. 1
From: toreador@***.bc.ca (Andrew Murdoch)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:23:41 -0800 (PST)
So, in short:

All current source material is going to be completely useless, even though
in each previous case at least some of the rules and equipment was useable
from one edition to the next. Deckers and Riggers each lose essentially
what it means to be either, and even the Matrix is going away.

I'm holding out that I wake up tomorrow and this nightmare will be over.
If not, they can count on me not upgrading until at least 5th edition.
$300 in materials is an investment I make but rarely.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hail, Centurion! "...He that hath no sword, let him
Andrew C. Murdoch sell his garment and buy one."
toreador@***.bc.ca Luke 22:36
http://www.fandom.ca
Message no. 2
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:18:21 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Murdoch" <toreador@***.bc.ca>
To: "ShadowRN Mailing List" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 5:23 AM
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.


> So, in short:
>
> All current source material is going to be completely useless, even though
> in each previous case at least some of the rules and equipment was useable
> from one edition to the next. Deckers and Riggers each lose essentially
> what it means to be either, and even the Matrix is going away.
>
> I'm holding out that I wake up tomorrow and this nightmare will be over.
> If not, they can count on me not upgrading until at least 5th edition.
> $300 in materials is an investment I make but rarely.

I'm getting flashbacks to the time shorty before D&D3E was released...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis: http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/~jhubert/
Message no. 3
From: shane@**************.net (Shane Mclean)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:38:08 +0100
> I'm getting flashbacks to the time shorty before D&D3E was released...

*looks at shelf with 99% complete SR collection (all editons)*

Yup, I get that feeling too. 4th Ed had better be the best thing to hit
gaming ever if they want my money - I've spent an obscene amoutn on SR thus
far this lifetime, and not being able to use most it in the future if I stay
current is a bad thing. That said, my 3rd ed game is going strong and will
stay that way...

Shane
Message no. 4
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:56:59 -0800 (PST)
*warning... this is a troll*

[snip people whinging about useless books]

Consider it the RPG SOTA. You've got to keep up with
it, or fall behind with the weak members of the pack.
That being said, you're free to stick with the
inferior old products.

Just keep in mind all the old sourcebooks are still
usable; you now have the choice of having campaigns
set in a new and fresh Shadowrun universe, though.
Also keep in mind that there is no onus on you
what-so-poopin-ever to collect "all of Shadowrun".

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
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Message no. 5
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jeremie Bouillon)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:02:11 +0200
Le 08:38 01/04/2005, Shane Mclean écrivait :
>Yup, I get that feeling too. 4th Ed had better be the best thing to hit
>gaming ever if they want my money - I've spent an obscene amoutn on SR thus
>far this lifetime, and not being able to use most it in the future if I stay
>current is a bad thing. That said, my 3rd ed game is going strong and will
>stay that way...

Obscene ? I got 99% of the game line since SR1, probably more than most
english because I have french book in addition, and I don't think "obscene"
is near to be a right word for it.

A SR book is around $20 in average, probably less, and that's for several
years of good service, and hundred and hundred of hours of gaming. Compare
with movies, DVD, videogames or other leisure, I think it's quite a bargain.
Message no. 6
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:15:43 -0300
On Apr 1, 2005 12:23 AM, Andrew Murdoch <toreador@***.bc.ca> wrote:
> So, in short:
>
> All current source material is going to be completely useless, even though
> in each previous case at least some of the rules and equipment was useable
> from one edition to the next. Deckers and Riggers each lose essentially
> what it means to be either, and even the Matrix is going away.

Except that the site explicitly said you still could use all source
material from the previous edition. It's just the rules that became
obsolete. And they /are/ going to publish a book that transitions
between the "old Matrix" and the new one.

I wouldn't mind if they just published a "new setting", either, but I
do think they're going to at least some lenghts to satisfy the
reactionary factions of the current player base :).


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 7
From: wolfjack@********.org (Adam J. Lyle)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:51:52 -0500
All I have to say is that I am glad none of you have ever
been in charge of any type of education. Things change;
ideas, thoughts, theories, etc. It's a fact of life as we
know it. If no one ever wanted to change from what they
had, what they know, then we would all still be living in
caves, wrapped in skins, eating on raw meat.

SR is going to change and evolve, like it or not.
The sun shall rise and set, like it or not.
Corporations (even in our day and age) need to make money to
survive, like it or not.
All we "little people" can do it deal.

Personally, I'll make my decisions on SR4 when I see it.
I'll read all the details as they come out and buy the BBoR
when it's out as well.

To hit on some of the points that are recent. I am happy
that deckers and riggers are joining together. That was my
original character concept for the most recent SR game we
played in, but I didn't have enough essence to be a good
decker and be a good rigger.

So, rock on FanPro! Show us what ya got!


-Adam
Message no. 8
From: pb3209@****.utah.edu (Jamison Cooper-Leavitt)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:40:23 -0700
Jeremie Bouillon wrote:

> Le 08:38 01/04/2005, Shane Mclean écrivait :
> >Yup, I get that feeling too. 4th Ed had better be the best thing to hit
> >gaming ever if they want my money - I've spent an obscene amoutn on
> SR thus
> >far this lifetime, and not being able to use most it in the future if
> I stay
> >current is a bad thing. That said, my 3rd ed game is going strong and
> will
> >stay that way...
>
> Obscene ? I got 99% of the game line since SR1, probably more than
> most english because I have french book in addition, and I don't think
> "obscene" is near to be a right word for it.
>
> A SR book is around $20 in average, probably less, and that's for
> several years of good service, and hundred and hundred of hours of
> gaming. Compare with movies, DVD, videogames or other leisure, I think
> it's quite a bargain.
>
>
>
>
Well the good this is when SR4 is released you can buy the main book
read it and see if you like it or not. I think that it would be better
to hold off judgement until then. At least that would be easier on the
wallet than comitting right off the bat whether to invest another $300
into the game. ;)

Veracusse
Message no. 9
From: pb3209@****.utah.edu (Jamison Cooper-Leavitt)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:44:51 -0700
Adam J. Lyle wrote:

>All I have to say is that I am glad none of you have ever
>been in charge of any type of education. Things change;
>ideas, thoughts, theories, etc. It's a fact of life as we
>know it. If no one ever wanted to change from what they
>had, what they know, then we would all still be living in
>caves, wrapped in skins, eating on raw meat.
>
>
>
Well I am involved with education, theories, ideas, and thoughts.
However, I agree with you. If Shadowrun never changed both rules based
and story based then it would be a dead game eventually, and so possibly
would FanPro.

>SR is going to change and evolve, like it or not.
>The sun shall rise and set, like it or not.
>Corporations (even in our day and age) need to make money to
>survive, like it or not.
>All we "little people" can do it deal.
>
>Personally, I'll make my decisions on SR4 when I see it.
>I'll read all the details as they come out and buy the BBoR
>when it's out as well.
>
>To hit on some of the points that are recent. I am happy
>that deckers and riggers are joining together. That was my
>original character concept for the most recent SR game we
>played in, but I didn't have enough essence to be a good
>decker and be a good rigger.
>
>So, rock on FanPro! Show us what ya got!
>
>
>-Adam
>
>
>
>
>
Message no. 10
From: shane@**************.net (Shane Mclean)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:55:06 +0100
From: "Jamison Cooper-Leavitt" <pb3209@****.utah.edu>
> At least that would be easier on the
> wallet than comitting right off the bat whether to invest another $300
> into the game. ;)

$300? I wish.

I have about 85 books/boxed sets on my Shadowrun shelf. At an average of £10
per book (the adventures are cheaper and the newer books more expensive than
that) that is £850, or almost $1600 at current exchange rates. And I reckon
tat may be on the low side, especially tacking ebay prices paid for some
stuff into account.


Shane
Message no. 11
From: pb3209@****.utah.edu (Jamison Cooper-Leavitt)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:09:17 -0700
Shane Mclean wrote:

>From: "Jamison Cooper-Leavitt" <pb3209@****.utah.edu>
>
>
>>At least that would be easier on the
>>wallet than comitting right off the bat whether to invest another $300
>>into the game. ;)
>>
>>
>
>$300? I wish.
>
>I have about 85 books/boxed sets on my Shadowrun shelf. At an average of £10
>per book (the adventures are cheaper and the newer books more expensive than
>that) that is £850, or almost $1600 at current exchange rates. And I reckon
>tat may be on the low side, especially tacking ebay prices paid for some
>stuff into account.
>
>
>Shane
>
>
>
>
>
Well I was just quoting the original posters price "$300". If each book
is to be considered $20 on average then my 34 books come out to $680 US,
and that is primarily just SR3 and some SR2 stuff. But then again there
are alot more expensive hobbies than role-playing.

Veracusse
Message no. 12
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:13:14 -0500
Jamison Cooper-Leavitt wrote:
> Well I was just quoting the original posters price "$300". If each book
> is to be considered $20 on average then my 34 books come out to $680 US,
> and that is primarily just SR3 and some SR2 stuff. But then again there
> are alot more expensive hobbies than role-playing.

No doubt. I have most of the source books, few of the "adventure" books.
I rarely play and have been collecting the books since 1991 or 1992. I
have spent much more on DVDs in the last year or so than I have on SR
books ever.
Message no. 13
From: wolfjack@********.org (Adam J. Lyle)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:17:51 -0500
> $300? I wish.
>
> I have about 85 books/boxed sets on my Shadowrun shelf. At
an
> average of £10
> per book (the adventures are cheaper and the newer books
more
> expensive than
> that) that is £850, or almost $1600 at current exchange
> rates. And I reckon
> tat may be on the low side, especially tacking ebay prices

> paid for some
> stuff into account.
>
>
> Shane
>

This is something else I don't get. Why does it matter how
much your books total? Maybe to other people getting 3
books is a large sum of cash. To others, they have to have
everything printed. If you can afford to buy every book
made for you game, why bitch about all the money you spent?
If you can't afford them, don't buy them.

Sure, for the game companies the bottom line is profit. For
the players and the GMs it should be enjoyment.

I just don't get it.


-Adam
Message no. 14
From: shane@**************.net (Shane Mclean)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:36:34 +0100
> I just don't get it.

Dunno, I just went with the topic... Hell, the amount spent ona game doesn't
matter - I had more fun over summer with just the Earthdawn core rules that
I have with hundreds of pounds of other gaming stuff, so what you spend
don't matter. It started as a throwaway comment and snowballed (which is
unprecedented int he history of RPG lists, neh?).

Shane
Message no. 15
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: SR4, and the FAQs thereof.
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 02:14:21 +0100
Shane Mclean wrote:
> > I just don't get it.
>
> Dunno, I just went with the topic... Hell, the amount spent ona game
> doesn't matter - I had more fun over summer with just the Earthdawn
> core rules that I have with hundreds of pounds of other gaming stuff,
> so what you spend don't matter. It started as a throwaway comment and
> snowballed (which is unprecedented int he history of RPG lists, neh?).
>
> Shane

Yeah, RPG 'value for money' depends to a large extent on what you do
with what you buy. You can get literally years of fun out of some cheap
rules if you get a good campaign going, or you can spend hundreds of
[insert unit of currency] on collecting everything ever made for a
certain game, yet all they do is gather dust on a shelf...

Anyway, lets assume that in the first year of SR4 there are bookes
published totaling $365 retail. That works out to $1 a day... I could
save that by getting a regular bacon butty [sandwich in a bun] for lunch
instead of the large I usually go for. Or I could make my own
sandwich... Or I could smoke 4 packs of cigs a week instead of 5 etc.

Is $1 a day really an exhorbitant cost to pay for your hobby?

And so what if sourcebooks start to become out-of-date. When SR1 was
first published Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union were
still going strong... I think if I was to travel around eastern Europe
using a 1989 guidebook I'd be cursing its inaccuracy all the time...

Is the Denver of 2065 covered by the Denver Boxed set? Nope, lots of
that is already superceded by post-Comet changes. Is Chicago of 2065
covered by Bug City? not really... And 2065 is current SR3. Lots of your
sourcebooks are already out of date... why not look forward to the new
Edition bringing out sourcebooks to bring the past ones up to the
current era. Sure some bits will remain constant, to give the air of
continuity. It's not as if every landmark, corp and gang will be
rewritten from the ground up, with different owners, areas of interest
or gang colours...

Change is good, change is vibrant, change can make the PC's feel
important. If you find out that corp A in 2070 no longer is so heavily
involved in a certain field, have your 3E characters do a run against
them that targets that field in 2065 as a 'transition' scenario... The
players can then come to feel that they were in some part responsible
for the change.

In any case, you almost always have to adapt sourcebooks or scenarios to
fit the 'reality' of your own campaign anyway. If your characters have
bumped of a mafia boss or two, or run a particular gang out of an area,
then a sourcebook or adventure comes out with the 'dead' bosses still
being in charge, or that particular gang still being in that area, you
either need to modify it for your game, or make up some excuse as to why
what the players remember happening didn't actually happen (or perhaps
they were doubles they killed, or the gang re-formed and moved back in a
few months later...)

Anyway, I don't think $1 a day is too much to pay for a revamped
(hopefully more cohesive) ruleset and up-to-date background. Especially
if you don't feel compelled to buy *everything* that comes out.

Matt



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