Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: jhubert@***.de ("JÃŒrgen_Hubert")
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:04:18 +0100 (MET)
>From what they said in the press release for SR4E, it sounds like the new
edition of Shadowrun will take a few pages from Transhuman Space:

"Matrix 2.0! An all-new level of wireless “augmented reality” overlays the
real world, unleashing hackers to be mobile digital wizards."

Augmented Reality has been an integral part of Transhuman Space from the
start. And since TS has one of the best looks at the effects of realistic
technology on human society in an RPG, I consider taking a few pages from
that game for SR to be a good thing. I wonder what else from TS will be
echoed in SR?

- (Meta)human genetic engineering: We've already seen some of that in "State
of the Art" (forgot which one), although I didn't like the rules as
presented (if this is done at your birth, you get a price cut!).

- Large-scale space development: There has been a lot of mention of space
ever since the probe race, and a lot of things might happen until 2070 (the
"default year" for SR4E) - including a permanent Mars base (weren't there
some dragon bones lying around? If someone finds some pre-human artefacts or
magical minerals there, there might be a gold rush breaking out...). We
might even see a dedicated space sourcebook one of these days... The only
problem is that runs in space pretty much nerf Awakened characters - even
with the latest metamagical techniques...

On the other hand, the Second Matrix Crash might leave the global economy
and the megacons too weak to afford much in the way of space travel...

Your thoughts on all of this?

- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
Website: http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Developer's Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/community/worldofcities/
Message no. 2
From: pentaj2@********.edu (John C. Penta)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:10:27 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jürgen Hubert" <jhubert@gmx.de>
Date: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:04 am
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space


> Your thoughts on all of this?

I'm hoping that isn't the case.

Personally, I don't want SR to move into Transhuman Space territory.

I like it when SR is more about the machinations of corps, governments, and
similar...I never did like the IEs, the bugs only slightly interested
me, and Deus got an 'eh'. But I liked things like the political
turmoil in YOTC (I disliked SURGE, but could take everything else), the Corp
Wars, the fun of Super Tuesday, and so forth.

I don't really like the idea of genetech or nanotech because of that. Once you
start getting that detailed (and violate basic genetics by enabling genetic changes to
effect someone already born) and finely-focused in how you can change humans, you
move from near-future into something else.

The kind of movement you postulate is something that leaves me uneasy; For the simple
reason that, even with magic added to the tech, I could get my mind and senses
wrapped around things. I could build stories because it all (except for magic) was
something I could understand it instinctively, I could figure it out. People
might have new toys, and some might be not-so-normal...but
they're still people. When you start messing with genetics and nanoware,
when you start going GitS with technology...I can't wrap my mind
around that. I have nothing to hold onto. Once you start messing with
genetics, you're changing the stuff of what it means to be human. Means I
can't figure out what "human nature" would react to all this with.

John
Message no. 3
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:31:51 -0800 (PST)
> > Your thoughts on all of this?

> I'm hoping that isn't the case.
>
> Personally, I don't want SR to move into Transhuman Space
> territory.

I have to agree. I have felt through most of the SR3 releases that
the SR developers are scrambling to push the technology curve. They
are struggling to make Shadowrun feel as high tech (relative to
current tech levels) as older editions did (relative to early 90's
tech levels). The constant risk is that SR will slip over the line
that seperates cyberpunk from sci-fi. It is the difference between
Snowcrash and Diamond Age. Trying to make the mechanics of gene-tech
and nano-tech balance with bioware and cyberware is as futile an
effort as trying to make the Horrors/IEs/GDs fit smoothly into the SR
metaplot. You either end up with a set of limitations that are
absolutely contrived and artificial, or you end up pushing a bunch of
things into early obsolecence. "Oh no, after countless millenia of
magic following a fairly predictable cycle, it suddenly skyrockets in
a couple of decades and the Horrors are coming back a dozen centuries
earlier than any reasonable expectations on the part of all these
near omniscient beings who've been preparing for the next Scourge
since before recorded history." *cough cough* BS *cough* "Yea, I
coulda got me a nano-augmentation package, configurable on the fly,
with dozens of programable permutations, making me as strong as a
troll, as fast as an elf, and as hardy as a dwarf. But this
all-metal body looked soooo wizzer on the trid ads, and the Essence
cost was identical because of game balance issues." *grin* Starts
to stretch the bounds of suspended disbelief.

Releasing a new edition to make the Matrix more accurate to present
day networking technology is like running a full demolition and
rebuild job on a house because you stripped a few screws installing
some shelves on the second floor. I see this and I think... 'why
don't they put that effort into books I want to buy... like a Shadows
of the Far East sourcebook'? I am pretty well done with replacing
all my core rule books over again. I made SR1 work for me. SR2 came
along and I dutifully upgraded. Thoroughly. I own dozens of SR2
books, many with multiple copies. I resisted SR3 for a long time,
partly due to cost and partly due to the fact that SR2 was working
fine for me. Sure, I was running as many house rules as BTB rules,
but patching is part of any working environment. The upgrade to SR3
was something I did grudgingly. A new edition this soon is more than
a little annoying. I like to think that the SR developers keep half
an eye on their player community. Of all the suggested sourcebook
additions I've seen on this list, a whole new edition is the LEAST
proposed method for improving the game. There is no way the
marketing people at WizKids are going to let world sourcebooks walk
out the door that don't push readers toward buying the new core
ruleset. That would be poor business planning. So I am going to
find myself buying a sourcebook on the Orient that would be sooo much
better if I just went out and bought SR4. And I am going to be
pissed. Thoroughly, royally, pissed. I think I'll stick to my very
well "patched" SR3 and be done.

I hope the stewards of the SR product line don't get so caught up in
generating new revenue streams that they forget those who have kept
the game alive long enough to make a new edition sell.

Oh well...

======Korishinzo
--end of rant



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Message no. 4
From: justin@***********.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:00:30 -0500
Ice Heart wrote:
> books, many with multiple copies. I resisted SR3 for a long time,
> partly due to cost and partly due to the fact that SR2 was working
> fine for me. Sure, I was running as many house rules as BTB rules,
> but patching is part of any working environment. The upgrade to SR3
> was something I did grudgingly. A new edition this soon is more than
> a little annoying.

In what was is 7 years "This soon"? I just don't understand this
rationale at all. Just because you only just moved to 3E doesn't mean
it's the same case for everyone. I bought 1E in 1991, then 2E came out
pretty damn quick after that. I'm just wondering where the Rigger book
is that comes just before a new release is...
Message no. 5
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:24:29 +0100
From: "Ice Heart" <korishinzo@*****.com>
<Snip>
> Releasing a new edition to make the Matrix more accurate to present
> day networking technology is like running a full demolition and
> rebuild job on a house because you stripped a few screws installing
> some shelves on the second floor. I see this and I think... 'why
> don't they put that effort into books I want to buy... like a Shadows
> of the Far East sourcebook'?

Check out the FanPro Catalog
http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath5&products_id67,
and you will see that Shadows of Asia and Shadows of Latin America are
comming this year.

In addition to SR4, SR4 GM Screen, Street Magic (SR4 Magic sourcebook),
Loose Alliances (Sourcebook), System Failure (adventure/sourcebook) and On
the Run (Adventure).

<Snip>
> Oh well...

Oh whatever...

Lars
Message no. 6
From: dhyde79@*********.net (Derek Hyde)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:00:48 -0600
> Check out the FanPro Catalog
> http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath5&products_id67,
> and you will see that Shadows of Asia and Shadows of Latin America are
> comming this year.
>
> In addition to SR4, SR4 GM Screen, Street Magic (SR4 Magic sourcebook),
> Loose Alliances (Sourcebook), System Failure (adventure/sourcebook) and On
> the Run (Adventure).


The question I've got is...will these books be put out for sr3 or SR4?
Message no. 7
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:07:26 -0700
On 18-Mar-05, at 2:00 PM, Derek Hyde wrote:

>> In addition to SR4, SR4 GM Screen, Street Magic (SR4 Magic
>> sourcebook),
>> Loose Alliances (Sourcebook), System Failure (adventure/sourcebook)
>> and On
>> the Run (Adventure).
>
> The question I've got is...will these books be put out for sr3 or SR4?

Loose Alliances, System Failure, Shadows of Asia, and Shadows of Latin
America are all SR3 sourcebooks; the rest are SR4.

Most of LA, SOA, and SOLA is non-rules material, and System Failure is
the last of the SR3 products.

There are also some PDF-only products that were not in the print
catalog that we haven't finalized yet, but it's likely that the SR4
Character Dossier will be a PDF-only product, and we have hopes of
doing a GMs Dossier as well, although that may be a 2006 product.

Cheers,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 8
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:26:15 +0100
From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde79@*********.net>
>
>> Check out the FanPro Catalog
>>
http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath5&products_id67,
>> and you will see that Shadows of Asia and Shadows of Latin America are
>> comming this year.
>>
>> In addition to SR4, SR4 GM Screen, Street Magic (SR4 Magic sourcebook),
>> Loose Alliances (Sourcebook), System Failure (adventure/sourcebook) and
>> On
>> the Run (Adventure).
>
>
> The question I've got is...will these books be put out for sr3 or SR4?

The way I read it they will be published this way:

Loose Alliances is the nex book cooming, and thus clearly for SR3, but as a
sourcebook it can be used for any edition..
System Failure is the book to make the Matrix crash, and thus will be the
gap between SR3 and SR4. It will likely be for SR3.
On the Run will be for SR4 as will SR4, SR4 GM Screen and Street Magic.
The two Shadows bokk will mostly be sourcebooks, and thus relevant for any
edition.

Lars
Message no. 9
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:43:56 +0100
From: "Adam Jury" <adam@************.com>
>
> There are also some PDF-only products that were not in the print catalog
> that we haven't finalized yet, but it's likely that the SR4 Character
> Dossier will be a PDF-only product, and we have hopes of doing a GMs
> Dossier as well, although that may be a 2006 product.

Not fair, I want both printed and PDF books. The printed version to stand on
my bookshelf, and the PDF version to be used and abused.

Lars
Message no. 10
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:51:44 -0700
On 21-Mar-05, at 1:43 PM, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

>> There are also some PDF-only products that were not in the print
>> catalog that we haven't finalized yet, but it's likely that the SR4
>> Character Dossier will be a PDF-only product, and we have hopes of
>> doing a GMs Dossier as well, although that may be a 2006 product.
>
> Not fair, I want both printed and PDF books. The printed version to
> stand on my bookshelf, and the PDF version to be used and abused.

To be clear, the PDF-only products are those that we think have more
value as PDF than a printed book -- products where some people may want
to print out some pages multiple times, where they may not want to
print out all the pages, where we may add more content at a later time
[and allow previous buyers to upgrade for free, of course], etc.

Cheers,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 11
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: SR4E and Transhuman Space
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:54:32 -0800 (PST)
> print out all the pages, where we may add more
> content at a later time
> [and allow previous buyers to upgrade for free, of
> course], etc.

Hurray, edible regenerating cake. I applaud. Someday
in the far-fetched future fan-produced expansions can
be released in PDF form and make people money. That
day all listmembers will be rich and drive fast cars.

There do seem to be plenty of incentives to be an
early adopter of this digital format. Would upgrades
for early modules eventually include translation into
SR4?

cheers,

Jan Jaap



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SR4E and Transhuman Space, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!