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Message no. 1
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:20:45 -0700
On Wed, 18 May 2005 09:00:51 +1000
Owen McKerrow <owen@***.edu.au> wrote:>

> But as another list member said, if mages can start to easily increase in
> both magic power and skills then yes that would not be an improvement on
> the current system.

OTOH, I feel that the artificial skill distinctions between various forms of
firearms is silly and irrational, I could support the six- or perhaps
nine-fold division of magic skill, although I haven't playtested it,
certainly.

However, I would support turning back the plethora of firearm skills to
simply 'gun' 'heavy weapon' and perhaps 'missile' and simplifying magic
skills to 'sorcery', 'enchanting', and perhaps 'metamagic'.
--Anders
Message no. 2
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:18:50 +1000
On 18/05/2005, at 9:20 AM, Anders Swenson wrote:

> On Wed, 18 May 2005 09:00:51 +1000
> Owen McKerrow <owen@***.edu.au> wrote:>
>
>> But as another list member said, if mages can start to easily
>> increase in
>> both magic power and skills then yes that would not be an improvement
>> on
>> the current system.
>
> OTOH, I feel that the artificial skill distinctions between various
> forms of
> firearms is silly and irrational, I could support the six- or perhaps
> nine-fold division of magic skill, although I haven't playtested it,
> certainly.
>
> However, I would support turning back the plethora of firearm skills to
> simply 'gun' 'heavy weapon' and perhaps 'missile' and simplifying magic
> skills to 'sorcery', 'enchanting', and perhaps 'metamagic'.
> --Anders

What I was referring to was the discussion of mages and karma. As in
they currently spend lots of karma on magics and thus don't go up
quickly in other skills e.g. firearms, athletics etc. However if SR4
makes mages need less karma for going up in magic skills as had been
suggested then they could (??) easily increase quickly in both firearms
and magic. That is what I was referring to as not an improvement.
Message no. 3
From: kelvaris@***********.us (Jeff Haskell)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:30:26 -0800
Owen McKerrow wrote:

>
> On 18/05/2005, at 9:20 AM, Anders Swenson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 18 May 2005 09:00:51 +1000
>> Owen McKerrow <owen@***.edu.au> wrote:>
>>
>>> But as another list member said, if mages can start to easily
>>> increase in
>>> both magic power and skills then yes that would not be an
>>> improvement on
>>> the current system.
>>
>>
>> OTOH, I feel that the artificial skill distinctions between various
>> forms of
>> firearms is silly and irrational, I could support the six- or perhaps
>> nine-fold division of magic skill, although I haven't playtested it,
>> certainly.
>>
>> However, I would support turning back the plethora of firearm skills to
>> simply 'gun' 'heavy weapon' and perhaps 'missile' and simplifying magic
>> skills to 'sorcery', 'enchanting', and perhaps 'metamagic'.
>> --Anders
>
>
> What I was referring to was the discussion of mages and karma. As in
> they currently spend lots of karma on magics and thus don't go up
> quickly in other skills e.g. firearms, athletics etc. However if SR4
> makes mages need less karma for going up in magic skills as had been
> suggested then they could (??) easily increase quickly in both
> firearms and magic. That is what I was referring to as not an
> improvement.
>
Shadow Replied

But why should they? Magic in any game is like Jedi's in Starwars. After
enough karma/xp no one can stand against them, no matter how well made
they are. So why should a mage get the best of both worlds, they are
mages, do they need to be able to excel at guns the way Sam's do?
Message no. 4
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:35:15 +1000
>>>> But as another list member said, if mages can start to easily
>>>> increase in
>>>> both magic power and skills then yes that would not be an
>>>> improvement on
>>>> the current system.
>>>
>>>
>>> OTOH, I feel that the artificial skill distinctions between various
>>> forms of
>>> firearms is silly and irrational, I could support the six- or perhaps
>>> nine-fold division of magic skill, although I haven't playtested it,
>>> certainly.
>>>
>>> However, I would support turning back the plethora of firearm skills
>>> to
>>> simply 'gun' 'heavy weapon' and perhaps 'missile' and simplifying
>>> magic
>>> skills to 'sorcery', 'enchanting', and perhaps 'metamagic'.
>>> --Anders
>>
>>
>> What I was referring to was the discussion of mages and karma. As in
>> they currently spend lots of karma on magics and thus don't go up
>> quickly in other skills e.g. firearms, athletics etc. However if SR4
>> makes mages need less karma for going up in magic skills as had been
>> suggested then they could (??) easily increase quickly in both
>> firearms and magic. That is what I was referring to as not an
>> improvement.
>>
> Shadow Replied
>
> But why should they? Magic in any game is like Jedi's in Starwars.
> After enough karma/xp no one can stand against them, no matter how
> well made they are. So why should a mage get the best of both worlds,
> they are mages, do they need to be able to excel at guns the way Sam's
> do?

That was my exact point. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Message no. 5
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:36:21 -0700
Jeff Haskell wrote:
>
> But why should they? Magic in any game is like Jedi's in
> Starwars. After enough karma/xp no one can stand against
> them, no matter how well made they are.
>

BULLSH*T. Pure and utter bullsh*t. No one is invincible in SR, least of all
a mage. He may be harder to kill, but it's still just 10 boxes o' damage.

Sniper rifles when you least expect it?
Mack truck full of commercial explosives?
Airliner crashes into his building?

It can (and has) been done.

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
Message no. 6
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:00:02 +1000
On 18/05/2005, at 10:36 AM, Zebulin wrote:

>>
>> But why should they? Magic in any game is like Jedi's in
>> Starwars. After enough karma/xp no one can stand against
>> them, no matter how well made they are.
>>
>
> BULLSH*T. Pure and utter bullsh*t. No one is invincible in SR, least
> of all
> a mage. He may be harder to kill, but it's still just 10 boxes o'
> damage.
>
> Sniper rifles when you least expect it?
> Mack truck full of commercial explosives?
> Airliner crashes into his building?
>
> It can (and has) been done.


Of course no one is invincible. My point was that I think it would be
a bad decision, game balance wise to allow Mages to up magic skills and
normal skills quickly and easily at the same time.
Message no. 7
From: gwarren@*******.rr.com (Griff M. Warren II)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:18:06 -0400
> Of course no one is invincible. My point was that I think it would be
> a bad decision, game balance wise to allow Mages to up magic skills
> and normal skills quickly and easily at the same time.
>
>
Agreed. Initiation, allies, spells, etc. could get monstrously
expensive. And while I love playing mages it was really the only thing
that could keep them from outstripping other character types. As for
the street sammy gun thing: It's very different firing a rifle compared
to a pistol. They should definitely remain separate skills.
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:15:54 +0200
According to Owen McKerrow, on 18-05-2005 02:18 the word on the street
was...

> What I was referring to was the discussion of mages and karma. As in
> they currently spend lots of karma on magics and thus don't go up
> quickly in other skills e.g. firearms, athletics etc. However if SR4
> makes mages need less karma for going up in magic skills as had been
> suggested then they could (??) easily increase quickly in both firearms
> and magic. That is what I was referring to as not an improvement.

Even if improving skills, learning spells, initiating, etc. is cheaper
on an absolute level (that is, if it costs less to learn a spell in SR4
than it does in SR3, for example) it can still turn out to be just as
expensive relatively due to the split-up magical skills.

Compare it to SRII vs. SR3 with weapon skills: in SRII, all you needed
to do was spend 5 Karma to get your Firearms skill from 4 to 5, and you
could handle all weapons better; in SR3, you spend the same amount of
Karma to raise just Pistols, or only SMGs, or whatever -- so it's more
expensive on an absolute level. (Also relatively, because characters
earn about the same amount of Karma in SR3 as in SRII.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:05 +0200
According to Zebulin, on 18-05-2005 02:36 the word on the street was...

>>But why should they? Magic in any game is like Jedi's in
>>Starwars. After enough karma/xp no one can stand against
>>them, no matter how well made they are.
>>
> BULLSH*T. Pure and utter bullsh*t. No one is invincible in SR, least of all
> a mage. He may be harder to kill, but it's still just 10 boxes o' damage.

Agreed. Just because you're a <insert character type here> with lots of
Karma doesn't mean a ganger with a machine pistol can't kill you (as has
happened more than once in games I've been in). And even if you manage
immunity to that kind of attack, there are many, many ways in which you
can still get killed regardless of how great your magical abilities are.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:55:29 -0300
On 5/17/05, Jeff Haskell <kelvaris@***********.us> wrote:
>
> But why should they? Magic in any game is like Jedi's in Starwars. After
> enough karma/xp no one can stand against them, no matter how well made
> they are. So why should a mage get the best of both worlds, they are
> mages, do they need to be able to excel at guns the way Sam's do?

Ooooh, I know! Let's divide up the character types so Street Samurai
are naturally better at guns than everyone else, and mages are
naturally worse at all forms of physical combat, to compensate for the
powerful magic then can get later on!

We can call these divisions "classes"!





Heh :).


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 11
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 08:24:23 -0700
On Tue, 17 May 2005 17:36:21 -0700
"Zebulin" <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:

> Sniper rifles when you least expect it?
> Mack truck full of commercial explosives?
> Airliner crashes into his building?
>
> It can (and has) been done.
>
> Zebulin
>
Don't forget falling cows!
--Anders
Message no. 12
From: caseless@*****.com (Stephen Allee)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:39:32 -0700
On 5/18/05, Anders Swenson wrote:
>
> Don't forget falling cows!
>

That brings back unpleasant memories... :-)
Message no. 13
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:29:09 -0700
Stephen Allee wrote:
>
> On 5/18/05, Anders Swenson wrote:
> >
> > Don't forget falling cows!
> >
>
> That brings back unpleasant memories... :-)
>

For you, it would, yes. What about that HVAC unit?

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
Message no. 14
From: caseless@*****.com (Stephen Allee)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:09:52 -0700
On 5/21/05, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>
> For you, it would, yes. What about that HVAC unit?

That _soooo_ was not my fault. And neither was blowing the floor off
the elevator in Renraku Arcology.
Message no. 15
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: SR4 FAQ, Part 5 - A modest proposal
Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:28:33 -0700
Stephen Allee wrote:
>
> On 5/21/05, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> >
> > For you, it would, yes. What about that HVAC unit?
>
> That _soooo_ was not my fault. And neither was blowing the
> floor off the elevator in Renraku Arcology.
>

First of all, that's not how I heard it. Second, you *botched* that demo
roll! It was totally your fault!

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.

Further Reading

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