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Message no. 1
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:37:03 +1100
Hi All,

VERY VERY slowly making my way through the SR4 rules. Question about
extreme range shoots.

From what I can figure, if your taking an extrem shot with any gun,
with no visability modifiers, at a standing target who has no cover
you roll your Agility + Gun Skill in dice, with -3 dice poll modifier
for extreme range, i.e. remove 3 dice. And as long as you get one 5
or above you hit. At least thats how I read it. The GM can change
that so you need more than one success if he feels the need. But I
think thats how it goes according to the rules. May have missed
something out though (??).
Mind you you stick a smart link on the gun and you get 2 of those
lost 3 dice back. Aim for one round and your back up to full, aim for
2 rounds and your even better than when we first started.

So is that all there is to it or am I missing something due to my
read 1 page every week approach to the rule book ( don't ask, lets
just say life's busy ).


Owen McKerrow
WebMaster, emlab
http://emlab.uow.edu.au

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - -

"I like the way this project has somehow, against all common sense,
got itself made."
- Peter Jackson, "The Lord of The Rings"
Message no. 2
From: zebulingod@*****.com (zebulingod)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:58:01 -0800
Owen McKerrow wrote:
#
#Hi All,
#
#VERY VERY slowly making my way through the SR4 rules. Question
#about extreme range shoots.
#
<SNIP MECHANICS>
#
#So is that all there is to it or am I missing something due to
#my read 1 page every week approach to the rule book ( don't
#ask, lets just say life's busy ).
#

Yeah, easy isn't it? Easier than, say, making that same shot in SR3 by a
long way. Even more so now that vision mag and smartlink stack bonuses. In
effect, you can remove the -3 (vision mag, I think) and add +2 (smartlink)
+1 (aiming) and be 3 dice ahead.

Zebulin
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:13:27 +0100
According to Owen McKerrow, on 13-12-05 00:37 the word on the street was...

> From what I can figure, if your taking an extrem shot with any gun,
> with no visability modifiers, at a standing target who has no cover you
> roll your Agility + Gun Skill in dice, with -3 dice poll modifier for
> extreme range, i.e. remove 3 dice. And as long as you get one 5 or
> above you hit. At least thats how I read it.

That's exactly how it works, yes.

> Mind you you stick a smart link on the gun and you get 2 of those lost
> 3 dice back. Aim for one round and your back up to full, aim for 2
> rounds and your even better than when we first started.

Again spot-on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:15:04 -0200
On 12/12/05, zebulingod <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> Owen McKerrow wrote:

>
> Yeah, easy isn't it? Easier than, say, making that same shot in SR3 by a
> long way. Even more so now that vision mag and smartlink stack bonuses. In
> effect, you can remove the -3 (vision mag, I think) and add +2 (smartlink)
> +1 (aiming) and be 3 dice ahead.

>From reading the rules, I feel dodge is a more important part of
combat now. Even in "laboratory conditions", like in Owen's example,
the target still gets to make a Reaction + Dodge test against the shot
without needing to spend any actions to do so. That will reduce the
attacker's successes even when nothing else will.

Also, the enviromental penalties are still pretty much the same, so
the majority of attacks performer outside of that white room will be
harder than this.



--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 5
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:22:14 -0500
Owen McKerrow wrote:
> ...if your taking an extrem shot with any gun,...as long as you get
> one 5 or above you hit.
True. This is assuming a firing range and a practice target. Is that
how you see it?

I don't think this is all that unreasonable, though I think it may be
unfairly biased to image magnification. A smart link shows a
mathematically calculated computer generated impact point. Image
magnification allows the shooter to see exactly where they are aiming
(perhaps image mag is too powerful here - maybe make a house rule that
it only eliminates the range modifier if used in conjunction with a
smartlink, otherwise, it's a simple +1?)

Tim
Message no. 6
From: zebulingod@*****.com (zebulingod)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:59:20 -0800
Bira wrote:
#
#>From reading the rules, I feel dodge is a more important part of
#combat now. Even in "laboratory conditions", like in Owen's
#example, the target still gets to make a Reaction + Dodge test
#against the shot without needing to spend any actions to do
#so. That will reduce the attacker's successes even when
#nothing else will.
#

Alright, I must have misunderstood combat, then, because from what I read,
you could only roll dodge against a ranged attack if you were in full
defense, which required spending an action.

*checks SR4*

Page 141, the table at the top shows this:

Defender Rolls Reaction +/- modifiers
Defender using Full Defense rolls Reaction + Dodge +/- modifiers

This is reiterated on pg 142:

"There is no skill that applies to defending against ranged
attacks--defending characters simply roll reaction (the defaulting penalty
does not apply). Characters may also go on full defense (p.151)."

Pg 151 shows:

"Characters...can spend a Complex Action and go on Full Defense until their
next Action Phase."

Now, personally, there's some question here, since the Dodge skill has a
specialization for ranged combat, so it would seem something doesn't quite
add up, but I wanted to remind people that the defender does have to "lose a
turn" to get more than just Reaction (+Edge) dice to roll.

Zebulin
Message no. 7
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:20:45 -0500
zebulingod wrote:
> the defender does have to "lose a turn" to get more than just Reaction
(+Edge) dice to roll.
>
Excellent point and reminder. Thanks.

Tim
Message no. 8
From: ramoseley@*****.com (Robert Moseley)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:23:43 -0600
On 12/13/05, zebulingod <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Bira wrote:
> #
> #>From reading the rules, I feel dodge is a more important part of
> #combat now. Even in "laboratory conditions", like in Owen's
> #example, the target still gets to make a Reaction + Dodge test
> #against the shot without needing to spend any actions to do
> #so. That will reduce the attacker's successes even when
> #nothing else will.
> #
>
> Alright, I must have misunderstood combat, then, because from what I read,
> you could only roll dodge against a ranged attack if you were in full
> defense, which required spending an action.
>
> *checks SR4*
>
> Page 141, the table at the top shows this:
>
> Defender Rolls Reaction +/- modifiers
> Defender using Full Defense rolls Reaction + Dodge +/- modifiers
>
> This is reiterated on pg 142:
>
> "There is no skill that applies to defending against ranged
> attacks--defending characters simply roll reaction (the defaulting penalty
> does not apply). Characters may also go on full defense (p.151)."
>
> Pg 151 shows:
>
> "Characters...can spend a Complex Action and go on Full Defense until
> their
> next Action Phase."
>
> Now, personally, there's some question here, since the Dodge skill has a
> specialization for ranged combat, so it would seem something doesn't quite
> add up, but I wanted to remind people that the defender does have to "lose
> a
> turn" to get more than just Reaction (+Edge) dice to roll.
>
> Zebulin
>
>

Dodge has a specialization for ranged combat and melee combat, because,
according to page 147:
Melee Combat Summary:
Defender Rolls: Reaction + Dodge.
Defender Using Full Defense: Reaction + weapon skill/Dodge + Dodge

This is important because you can use your Dodge skill in Melee Combat
without giving up an action, which isn't true in Ranged Combat, and if you
do give up an action to Full Dodge, your Dodge skill is added in twice.

Robert
Message no. 9
From: ramoseley@*****.com (Robert Moseley)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:35:21 -0600
On 12/13/05, Bira <u.alberton@*****.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/12/05, zebulingod <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:
> > Owen McKerrow wrote:
>
> >
> > Yeah, easy isn't it? Easier than, say, making that same shot in SR3 by a
> > long way. Even more so now that vision mag and smartlink stack bonuses.
> In
> > effect, you can remove the -3 (vision mag, I think) and add +2
> (smartlink)
> > +1 (aiming) and be 3 dice ahead.
>
> >From reading the rules, I feel dodge is a more important part of
> combat now. Even in "laboratory conditions", like in Owen's example,
> the target still gets to make a Reaction + Dodge test against the shot
> without needing to spend any actions to do so. That will reduce the
> attacker's successes even when nothing else will.
>
> Also, the enviromental penalties are still pretty much the same, so
> the majority of attacks performer outside of that white room will be
> harder than this.
>
>
>
> --
> Bira
> http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
> http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
>

As I recall in SR3, Image Modification rating 2 allowed you to changed the
range of a shot from long range to short range, although Smartgun links
didn't function using Image Modification (Which I always questioned. Your
smartgun link that displayed a targeting reticle on your eye didn't work
because you put binoclars on?). Add that to the -1 per Simple Action of
aiming, and you end up with a TN of 3, making a long shot in SR3 under the
same conditions, while maybe not as easy, pretty easy as well.

Robert
Message no. 10
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:53:53 -0700
On 12/13/05, Robert Moseley <ramoseley@*****.com> wrote:
>
> ...although Smartgun links
> didn't function using Image Modification (Which I always questioned. Your
> smartgun link that displayed a targeting reticle on your eye didn't work
> because you put binoclars on?).

Without the image magnification you can see the reticle in your
peripheral vision and bring it onto the target fairly easily (not
withstand vision/movement modifiers). However, with image
magnification seperate from the smart gun, be it binoculars or a
cybereye mod, you can't see the reticule in your peripheral vision any
more and it's a really bitch to get it into your (magnified) field of
vision. Grab a pair of binoculars and a cheap laser pointer and try
it sometime. Then do the same with a telescope or a high powered
scope. And don't use a standing target, ask a friend to walk/run
around for you :)

--
-Graht
Message no. 11
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:12:44 -0200
On 12/13/05, zebulingod <zebulingod@*****.com> wrote:

> Now, personally, there's some question here, since the Dodge skill has a
> specialization for ranged combat, so it would seem something doesn't quite
> add up, but I wanted to remind people that the defender does have to "lose a
> turn" to get more than just Reaction (+Edge) dice to roll.

Thank you for checking it up, I don't have the book on me right now.
The thing is, the defender does get a roll even if he doesn't spend an
action to add his Dodge to it. He has a significant chance of rolling
at least one hit in his Reaction roll, which increases if he adds Edge
to it.

So, even without Dodge, it may take more than a single hit to shoot a
target who has a Reaction attribute.

If you still think it's too easy, there's also that optional rule
where the die penalty is replaced by a increase in Threshold, so it
would take 3 successes to hit even an inert target dummy at extreme
range.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 12
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:26:10 -0500
On Tue, Dec 13, 2005 at 10:37:03AM +1100, Owen McKerrow wrote:
> From what I can figure, if your taking an extrem shot with any gun,
> with no visability modifiers, at a standing target who has no cover
> you roll your Agility + Gun Skill in dice, with -3 dice poll modifier
> for extreme range, i.e. remove 3 dice. And as long as you get one 5
> or above you hit. At least thats how I read it. The GM can change
> that so you need more than one success if he feels the need. But I
> think thats how it goes according to the rules. May have missed
> something out though (??).
> Mind you you stick a smart link on the gun and you get 2 of those
> lost 3 dice back. Aim for one round and your back up to full, aim for
> 2 rounds and your even better than when we first started.

Yup. With aiming, a computer-aided targeting system, and a motionless
target, you do indeed get to roll a pool equal to your normal Attribute+
skill and need only one hit to, well, hit.

Additional hits will raise the base damage value of the shot, which can
in turn cause physical damage to an armored fleshy target rather than
stun.

While you're working your way through the ranged combat, notice the
following interesting tidbits compared to 3rd edition:

* Light pistols are no longer paper-weights.
* Flechette rounds are much improved versus armored targets.
* Called Shots will let you significantly up the damage on a shot if
you're positive you are going to hit.
* Knockdown is far more common, and is not a separate roll
* Taser attacks are even more take-down
* Armor to convert physical damage to stun can be as important as it's
overall damage-stopping capabilities. (depending on your enemies)

In practice, I've seen combat monsters get considerably more lethal,
while lower-end characters/weapons now actually damage folks.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 13
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 Gun Question
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:08:28 -0500
I'd like to stress the following (though it's a rehash for the list, I
think:

Brett Sanger wrote:
> * Knockdown is far more common, and is not a separate roll
From Shadowrun 4th Edition, page 151 and 152:
"If a character takes a number of boxes of damage (Stun or Physical)
from a single attack that equal or exceed his Body, then the attack
automatically knocks him down."

This has been the easiest for me to accidentally forget about while
GMing, but has a significant impact (please excuse the pun) on the
in-game situation.

Tim

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