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Message no. 1
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 10:32:15 +0200
http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_187_84&products_id=;
1617

It's available. 25.00$US

I'm very, very tempted to buy it now, but... The size of the file makes me
stop, somehow. I had hoped for a non-scanned version.

Any chances of seeing one of those? (Or is this a particulary big fully
searchable pdf?)

Matthäus
Message no. 2
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:10:57 -0400
Matthäus Cebulla wrote:

>I had hoped for a non-scanned version.
>
>Any chances of seeing one of those? (Or is this a particulary big fully
>searchable pdf?)
>
>Matthäus
>
I'm interested in knowing this as well. If it's a fully searchable
version, I'll pick it up to complement my standard hardcover, but if
it's scanned, then I'm not really interested.

Tim
Message no. 3
From: mal2@**.com (Jerry Hill)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 14:05:34 -0000 (GMT)
On Wed, August 31, 2005 12:10 pm, Tim Martin said:
> I'm interested in knowing this as well. If it's a fully searchable
> version, I'll pick it up to complement my standard hardcover, but if
> it's scanned, then I'm not really interested.

It is, indeed, a fully searchable PDF. It's just got a ton of graphics in
it, which makes the file large (and the pages redraw slowly).

--
Jerry
Message no. 4
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:19:15 -0400
Jerry Hill wrote:

>It is, indeed, a fully searchable PDF. It's just got a ton of graphics in
>it, which makes the file large (and the pages redraw slowly).
>
>
I've never purchased a PDF version of a gaming book before. Are there
any restrictions like DRM enabled or inability to print?

Tim
Message no. 5
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:31:22 -0400
On Wed, Aug 31, 2005 at 01:19:15PM -0400, Tim Martin wrote:
> I've never purchased a PDF version of a gaming book before. Are there
> any restrictions like DRM enabled or inability to print?

In general: It depends on what you are buying, where you are buying it,
and how old it is.

DriveThruRPG, for example, sells some DRM'd PDFs. They are mostly
switching to "watermarked" PDFs, but you should always check. (they are
explicit at least).

Older books are often scanned PDFs rather than full-text, meaning that
the pages are just images. That makes the PDF slower to load, and
unable to be searched. (read: not very useful)

Newer releases are usually full unrestricted E-books....but you should
always be cautious. I'd prefer to give Battlecorps my business over
DriveThruRPG, but DriveThru is explicit about what form the content is
in, BattleCorps isn't.

With regard to SR4: I don't know. I can let you know next week when I
buy one, but that's the best I can offer. Someone else commented here
that it's a fully usable PDF.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 6
From: mal2@**.com (Jerry Hill)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:18:14 -0000 (GMT)
On Wed, August 31, 2005 5:19 pm, Tim Martin said:
> I've never purchased a PDF version of a gaming book before. Are there
> any restrictions like DRM enabled or inability to print?

As far as I can tell, there is no DRM on the SR4 pdf I bought from
Battlecorp. I can copy and paste the text into other programs (including
doing 'Select All' and pasting it into a text editor). The Security
properties in Adobe Reader say it has "No security".
Message no. 7
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:01:14 -0600
On 31-Aug-05, at 11:31 AM, Brett Sanger wrote:

> DriveThruRPG, for example, sells some DRM'd PDFs. They are mostly
> switching to "watermarked" PDFs, but you should always check. (they
> are
> explicit at least).

Just a note that FanPro has never released a DRM-encumbered PDF. Our
PDFs on both BattleCorps and DTRPG allow for printing/copy and
pasting/etc. On DTRPG they have a watermark, on BC they do not.

Adam
--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 8
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:05:44 +0000
Adam,

Thanks, that's what I was trying to find out.

(Sorry for the top posting, I'm using my ISPs webmail, and it won't allow me to post under
quoted text for some reason.)

Zebulin


>
> On 31-Aug-05, at 11:31 AM, Brett Sanger wrote:
>
> > DriveThruRPG, for example, sells some DRM'd PDFs. They are mostly
> > switching to "watermarked" PDFs, but you should always check. (they
> > are
> > explicit at least).
>
> Just a note that FanPro has never released a DRM-encumbered PDF. Our
> PDFs on both BattleCorps and DTRPG allow for printing/copy and
> pasting/etc. On DTRPG they have a watermark, on BC they do not.
>
> Adam
> --
> Adam Jury
> http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
>
Message no. 9
From: rkedgar@*****.com (Robert Edgar)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:25:35 -0400
The pdf is fully searchable, selectable and all and is quit lovely to
behold. Printing is a breeze as I've just finished printing out the
first 50 pages for later reading. They look great. I did have to
upgrade to Acrobat Reader 7.0 as 5.0 kept choking. Kind of expected
this though based on DSF users mentioning the same thing.

Thanks for the hard work Adam.
Message no. 10
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:48:04 -0400
Adam Jury wrote:

> Just a note that FanPro has never released a DRM-encumbered PDF. Our
> PDFs on both BattleCorps and DTRPG allow for printing/copy and
> pasting/etc. On DTRPG they have a watermark, on BC they do not.

Wunderbar! That's what I was after. I guess you'll be pocketing some of
my money tomorrow. I'm looking forward to printing a spiral bound copy
for easier reference than the hardcover - thus extending the life of my
hardcopy. You should see my 1st edition SR main book...it looks like drek.

Tim
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:34:40 +0200
According to Jerry Hill, on 31-8-05 16:05 the word on the street was...

> It is, indeed, a fully searchable PDF. It's just got a ton of graphics in
> it, which makes the file large (and the pages redraw slowly).

It wouldn't make much sense for it to be a scanned PDF -- if you put
together the book in DTP software (as FanPro, and just about everyone
else in the world, does) you can save it to PDF with very little
trouble. Adobe InDesign, for example, exports to PDF directly -- I'd be
surprised if it didn't, what with PDF being an Adobe thing and all --
not to mention that _any_ Mac OS X program (lots of DTP is done on Macs)
that can send stuff to a printer, can save to PDF as well.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:38:48 +0200
According to Robert Edgar, on 31-8-05 21:25 the word on the street was...

> I did have to upgrade to Acrobat Reader 7.0 as 5.0 kept choking.

Anyone tried it with Preview on a Mac? I use Acrobat very rarely these
days, as it's much slower than Preview, and would prefer to use it for
SR4, too :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 02:46:04 -0600
On 1-Sep-05, at 2:38 AM, Gurth wrote:

> According to Robert Edgar, on 31-8-05 21:25 the word on the street
> was...
>
>> I did have to upgrade to Acrobat Reader 7.0 as 5.0 kept choking.
>
> Anyone tried it with Preview on a Mac? I use Acrobat very rarely these
> days, as it's much slower than Preview, and would prefer to use it for
> SR4, too :)

The current version is behaving very ill in Preview; I'm working on a
revised PDF "at this very minute!" that will address concerns with
compatibility with older versions of Acrobat/Adobe Reader and Preview.

Adam

--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 14
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 07:55:33 -0500
For those of you who, like me, take a laptop of PDFs instead of a satchel
full of books to your gaming nights, try this on for size:

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php

Since using this, I've found that my redraw and loading times for PDFs have
dropped dramatically. I can barely use Acrobat anymore. Just a quick note,
while we're on the subject.
Message no. 15
From: rkedgar@*****.com (Robert Edgar)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:54:33 -0400
On 9/1/05, Pace <reynardsurface@*****.com> wrote:
> For those of you who, like me, take a laptop of PDFs instead of a satchel
> full of books to your gaming nights, try this on for size:
>
> http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php
>
It didn't fit. ;) Every time I scroll past the 2nd page it crashes.
Not dramatically or anything, it just quits to the desktop. Tried
scrolling slower, faster and using different buttons with the same
effect. What I'm wondering is if Foxit can't handle the fact that the
first two pages are not 1 and 2, they're A and B. For what it's worth
though those 2 pages did redraw faster. ;)
Message no. 16
From: elventear@*****.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:09:36 -0500
On 9/1/05, Adam Jury <adam@************.com> wrote:
> The current version is behaving very ill in Preview; I'm working on a
> revised PDF "at this very minute!" that will address concerns with
> compatibility with older versions of Acrobat/Adobe Reader and Preview.

I got the current PDF that is being sold. If there is an update? Will
current customers be able to download the updated version?

Pepe
Message no. 17
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:25:52 -0600
On 9/1/05, Pepe Barbe <elventear@*****.com> wrote:
> On 9/1/05, Adam Jury <adam@************.com> wrote:
> > The current version is behaving very ill in Preview; I'm working on a
> > revised PDF "at this very minute!" that will address concerns with
> > compatibility with older versions of Acrobat/Adobe Reader and Preview.
>
> I got the current PDF that is being sold. If there is an update? Will
> current customers be able to download the updated version?

Depends on who you bought it from. DriveThruRPG claims that if there
is an update that their customers will be able to download the updated
version for free (providing they paid for the original/current
version). I have no idea what Battlecorps policy is, but they should
have it on their website somewhere.


--
-Graht
Message no. 18
From: mal2@**.com (Jerry Hill)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:58:32 -0000 (GMT)
On Thu, September 1, 2005 2:25 pm, Graht said:
> Depends on who you bought it from. DriveThruRPG claims that if there
> is an update that their customers will be able to download the updated
> version for free (providing they paid for the original/current
> version). I have no idea what Battlecorps policy is, but they should
> have it on their website somewhere.

I'd love to know what BattleCorps policy is, since that's where I bought
my PDF, but I can't find it on their site. If anyone knows, I'd love to
hear the answer.

--
Jerry
Message no. 19
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:56:03 +0200
From: "Adam Jury" <adam@************.com>
>
> Just a note that FanPro has never released a DRM-encumbered PDF. Our PDFs
> on both BattleCorps and DTRPG allow for printing/copy and pasting/etc. On
> DTRPG they have a watermark, on BC they do not.

So what is stopping me from uploading my newly bought SR4 PDF?

At least the DTRPG PDF will show that it's me, where as my BC copy could be
from anywhere.

Lars
Message no. 20
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:10:57 +0000
> From: "Adam Jury" <adam@************.com>
> >
> > Just a note that FanPro has never released a DRM-encumbered PDF. Our PDFs
> > on both BattleCorps and DTRPG allow for printing/copy and pasting/etc. On
> > DTRPG they have a watermark, on BC they do not.
>
> So what is stopping me from uploading my newly bought SR4 PDF?
>
> At least the DTRPG PDF will show that it's me, where as my BC copy could be
> from anywhere.
>
> Lars
>

My guess is that it would be your own desire not to have paid for something and then give
it away. The honor system, as it were.

Besides, any DRM would be cracked within a couple of weeks and a "cracked"
version would be available anyway. Personally, I'm glad FanPro/Wizkids chose the route
they did.

Zebulin
Message no. 21
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:13:04 -0400
On Sep 1, 2005, at 13:56, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

> From: "Adam Jury" <adam@************.com>
>>
>> Just a note that FanPro has never released a DRM-encumbered PDF. Our
>> PDFs on both BattleCorps and DTRPG allow for printing/copy and
>> pasting/etc. On DTRPG they have a watermark, on BC they do not.
>
> So what is stopping me from uploading my newly bought SR4 PDF?
>
Honesty. Integrity. Etc.

> At least the DTRPG PDF will show that it's me, where as my BC copy
> could be from anywhere.
>
One of the reasons to buy from DTRPG. The other is the fact that I
should be informed when Adam updates the SR4 PDF that I own so Preview
can actually see the images. Going from page to page is fine for
me...just lack of images sucks.

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison
Message no. 22
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:00:23 -0600
On 9/1/05, Pace <reynardsurface@*****.com> wrote:
> For those of you who, like me, take a laptop of PDFs instead of a satchel
> full of books to your gaming nights, try this on for size:
>
> http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php
>
> Since using this, I've found that my redraw and loading times for PDFs have
> dropped dramatically. I can barely use Acrobat anymore. Just a quick note,
> while we're on the subject.

Fwiw, there's also an option in Acrobat Reader to not display "large" images.

Go to Edit, Preferences, Page Display, and the uncheck the box for
"Display large images". Ymmv.

--
-Graht
Message no. 23
From: rkedgar@*****.com (Robert Edgar)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:00:06 -0400
On 9/1/05, Scott Harrison <scott@**********.com> wrote:

> One of the reasons to buy from DTRPG. The other is the fact that I
> should be informed when Adam updates the SR4 PDF that I own so Preview
> can actually see the images. Going from page to page is fine for
> me...just lack of images sucks.

During the purchasing process Battlecorps has a checkbox that lets
them know that you want to receive updates. So I am assuming that
they are providing the same thing that DTRPG is.
Message no. 24
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:09:09 +0200
From: <zebulingod@*******.net>
>>
>> So what is stopping me from uploading my newly bought SR4 PDF?
>>
>> Lars
>
> My guess is that it would be your own desire not to have paid for
> something and then give it away. The honor system, as it were.

Personally I wouldn't do it (I am after all a fanatical SR player and
collecter), but I'm sure it will be a matter of seconds before somebody will
do it.

> Besides, any DRM would be cracked within a couple of weeks and a "cracked"
> version would be available anyway. Personally, I'm glad FanPro/Wizkids
> chose the route they did.

So am I, especially since this is my first e-book.

Lars
Message no. 25
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:14:00 -0400
> From: "Adam Jury" <adam@************.com>


> At least the DTRPG PDF will show that it's me, where as my BC copy could be
> from anywhere.

The watermark contains the name and invoice number of the purchaser.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 26
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:21:20 +0200
From: "Ubiquitous" <weberm@*******.net>
>> At least the DTRPG PDF will show that it's me, where as my BC copy could
>> be
>> from anywhere.
>
> The watermark contains the name and invoice number of the purchaser.

That's my point, there is no watermark on the BC edition, only on the DTRPG
edition.

Lars
Message no. 27
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:28:31 +0200
From: "Jerry Hill" <mal2@**.com>
>
> I'd love to know what BattleCorps policy is, since that's where I bought
> my PDF, but I can't find it on their site. If anyone knows, I'd love to
> hear the answer.

I bought mine at BC aswell, and somehow I managed to subscribe to recieving
notification when the SR4 PDF was updated. I do not know if that includes
downloading it again.

Lars
Message no. 28
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:56:02 +0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lars Wagner Hansen [mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk]
> Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2005 08:09 PM
> To: 'Shadowrun Discussion'
> Subject: Re: SR4 PDF
>
> From: <zebulingod@*******.net>
> >>
> >> So what is stopping me from uploading my newly bought SR4 PDF?
> >>
> >> Lars
> >
> > My guess is that it would be your own desire not to have paid for
> > something and then give it away. The honor system, as it were.
>
> Personally I wouldn't do it (I am after all a fanatical SR player and
> collecter), but I'm sure it will be a matter of seconds before somebody will
> do it.

Please correct your verbage to past tense. Which is to say: I've already seen it
"somewhere" on the 'net.
*sighs*

-snicker
Message no. 29
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:58:30 +0200
From: <snicker@*********.net>
>> From: Lars Wagner Hansen [mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk]
>>
>> Personally I wouldn't do it (I am after all a fanatical SR player and
>> collecter), but I'm sure it will be a matter of seconds before somebody
>> will
>> do it.
>
> Please correct your verbage to past tense. Which is to say: I've already
> seen it "somewhere" on the 'net.
> *sighs*

Shame on whomever did it. :-(

Lars
Message no. 30
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:01:57 -0600
On 1-Sep-05, at 8:09 AM, Pepe Barbe wrote:

> On 9/1/05, Adam Jury <adam@************.com> wrote:
>> The current version is behaving very ill in Preview; I'm working on a
>> revised PDF "at this very minute!" that will address concerns with
>> compatibility with older versions of Acrobat/Adobe Reader and Preview.
>
> I got the current PDF that is being sold. If there is an update? Will
> current customers be able to download the updated version?

Yes; both customers of DTRPG and BC will be able to download the
updated version for free.

Adam

--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 31
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 08:29:34 -0400
Matthäus Cebulla wrote:

>http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath(_187_84&products_id>1617
>
>It's available. 25.00$US
>
>
A friend of mine and fellow gamer, Josh Harrison, one of the primary
people behind Red Brick, had a "proof" copy of the Earthdawn Player's
Compendium
<http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id'26>;
that was nicely printed as the pages for the final product would be, but
spiral bound, not hardcover bound. The pages were...looser...and the
book had a feel of utility to it. I particularly liked it because you
could lay it open, flat - or even fold the book back on itself without
worrying about damaging it.

Is there any web-based service that could do that for me with the SR4
PDF that I purchased?

Tim
Message no. 32
From: rkedgar@*****.com (Robert Edgar)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:40:45 -0400
> Is there any web-based service that could do that for me with the SR4
> PDF that I purchased?

Web-based? Why web-based? Print it out. It prints pretty nicely.
Then take it to Kinkos and have them bind it. The binding will cost
ya about 4 bucks.
Message no. 33
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:43:14 +0200
> [SNIP]
> Is there any web-based service that could do that for me with the SR4
> PDF that I purchased?

I'm not from the US or Canada, but this sounds like something your local
Kinkos might be able to do.

There was also a thrad on rpg-net about companies that let you do this
online (you upload the file, they print and bind it and then send it to
you). But as the search is down now, it might take a while for me to
get it out for you. :-/

> Tim

Matthäus
Message no. 34
From: mal2@**.com (Jerry Hill)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:50:09 -0000 (GMT)
On Fri, September 2, 2005 12:29 pm, Tim Martin said:
> Is there any web-based service that could [print and bind the] SR4
> PDF that I purchased?

I've had Print(fu) reccomended to me, but I've never used them myself.
Here's the address - http://www.printfu.org/ .

The price was difficult to find, but works out to $13.85 for printing and
$7.60 to ship it. If you want quotes for books of different lengths,
check the developers tools section, under web services.

If anyone opts to use them to print a copy of SR4, I'd love to hear about
your experiences.

--
Jerry
Message no. 35
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 07:00:49 -0600
On 2-Sep-05, at 6:50 AM, Jerry Hill wrote:

> I've had Print(fu) reccomended to me, but I've never used them myself.
> Here's the address - http://www.printfu.org/ .
>
> The price was difficult to find, but works out to $13.85 for printing
> and
> $7.60 to ship it. If you want quotes for books of different lengths,
> check the developers tools section, under web services.
>
> If anyone opts to use them to print a copy of SR4, I'd love to hear
> about
> your experiences.

Currently it says they don't do color printing ... I don't know if they
would take a color PDF and just print it B&W, or if they would reject
the file. If anyone has the time to look into this, I'd be interested
to hear the results.

PDF price + printing/shipping would likely end up being over $35,
though. I paid $7 at a local print shop several years back for them to
strip the spine from a copy of SR3 and have it spiral bound -- I'm not
sure if it would cost more to have it done with a hardcover book [they
may not be able to easily punch through the hardcover...] but if you're
looking for a spiral bound SR4, it may be cheaper to massacre a regular
hardback than rolling your own.

Adam
Message no. 36
From: mal2@**.com (Jerry Hill)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:08:22 -0000 (GMT)
> PDF price + printing/shipping would likely end up being over $35,
> though.

Absolutly. PDF Price ($25) + Printing ($14) + Shipping ($7) = $41.
Cheaper than the $55 bundle of hardcover SR4 + PDF copy from BattleCorps,
but not by much. I'm probably going to buy my hardcover from Amazon,
since they have it listed for $23, and skip the print-on-demand thing this
time.

--
Jerry
Message no. 37
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:12:13 +0200
From: "Jerry Hill" <mal2@**.com>
>
> The price was difficult to find, but works out to $13.85 for printing and
> $7.60 to ship it. If you want quotes for books of different lengths,
> check the developers tools section, under web services.

Plus the $25.00 you paid for the PDF file, which totals to $46.45!!!

Quite expensive for a SR4 book, which you could by hardcover bound for
$34.99.

Lars
Message no. 38
From: magen@***************.com (magen@***************.com)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:21:01 -0700 (PDT)
>
> PDF price + printing/shipping would likely end up being over $35,
> though. I paid $7 at a local print shop several years back for them to
> strip the spine from a copy of SR3 and have it spiral bound -- I'm not
> sure if it would cost more to have it done with a hardcover book [they
> may not be able to easily punch through the hardcover...] but if you're
> looking for a spiral bound SR4, it may be cheaper to massacre a regular
> hardback than rolling your own.
>
> Adam
>
>


Kinkos in Amarillo, Tx said they can do that, but they can't guarentee
that they won't have to cut so far into the page that they cut part of the
print away.
Message no. 39
From: sfeley@*****.com (Stephen Eley)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:33:54 -0400
On 9/2/05, magen@***************.com <magen@***************.com> wrote:
>
> Kinkos in Amarillo, Tx said they can do that, but they can't guarentee
> that they won't have to cut so far into the page that they cut part of the
> print away.

Their printers ought to be smart enough that they can scale the
document to leave a "gutter" in the margin of the page. If not, print
it yourself and scale it accordingly.

--
Have Fun,
Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com)
ESCAPE POD - the SF podcast magazine
http://escape.extraneous.org
Message no. 40
From: magen@***************.com (Magen Hardy)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:39:57 -0500 (CDT)
> On 9/2/05, magen@***************.com <magen@***************.com> wrote:
>>
>> Kinkos in Amarillo, Tx said they can do that, but they can't guarentee
>> that they won't have to cut so far into the page that they cut part of
>> the
>> print away.
>
> Their printers ought to be smart enough that they can scale the
> document to leave a "gutter" in the margin of the page. If not, print
> it yourself and scale it accordingly.
>

On a printed copy they probably wouldn't have a problem. I was talking
about cutting the binding off of a hardback copy and having it bound.
Message no. 41
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 10:12:27 +0200
According to Tim Martin, on 2-9-05 14:29 the word on the street was...

> spiral bound, not hardcover bound.
[snip]
> Is there any web-based service that could do that for me with the SR4
> PDF that I purchased?

Copy shops can usually bind books with a variety of glued-on or ring
spines (I have no idea what the English/American terms for these things
are). Be sure to get some or another steel version -- it will be a
little more expensive, but won't break as plastic is likely to. If you
must go for plastic, get it in a color that is not white, because that
tends to break into pieces after a few years.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:25:07 -0400
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 10:09:09PM +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
> Personally I wouldn't do it (I am after all a fanatical SR player and
> collecter), but I'm sure it will be a matter of seconds before somebody
> will do it.

Probably. But the trick is that someone will do it with a DRM version
too, and then the paying customers are the ones that get the crippled
version, while the thieves get the more flexibile version.

This reality is doubtless why DRM'ed versions of gaming books are fading
away and non-DRMed versions are becoming more popular. I'm more than
happy to pay a reasonable price for a product I want and can use. That
same sense of integrity makes me grumpy if thieves get more bang than my
buck.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 43
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:27:46 -0400
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 10:21:20PM +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
> That's my point, there is no watermark on the BC edition, only on the DTRPG
> edition.

*shrug* Watermarks would stop only the most casual theif. As soon as
there is a non-casual theif, the casuals ones get that copy.

I have nothing AGAINST watermarks -- they don't affect my ability to use
the book I've bought, but I don't consider them (or most anything else)
an effective anti-theft deterrant.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 44
From: ivan.upton@****.ca (Ivan Upton)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:16:09 -0600
Brett Sanger wrote:

>On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 10:21:20PM +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>
>
>>That's my point, there is no watermark on the BC edition, only on the DTRPG
>>edition.
>>
>>
>
>*shrug* Watermarks would stop only the most casual theif. As soon as
>there is a non-casual theif, the casuals ones get that copy.
>
>I have nothing AGAINST watermarks -- they don't affect my ability to use
>the book I've bought, but I don't consider them (or most anything else)
>an effective anti-theft deterrant.
>
>
>
I would have thought that encouraging fanpro to put out more shadowrun
books in ebook format as well as actual print books was enough deterrent
but I gues I was wrong... serves me right for ignoring something I once
heard in a movie but can't remember the movie title... the quote was
"... always bet on stupidity" :P

Aethelwulf
Message no. 45
From: ClassifiedTSBBR@*****.net.nz (Classified TS/BBR)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:15:04 +1200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivan Upton" <ivan.upton@****.ca>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
<snip>
> Brett Sanger wrote:
<snip>
>>I have nothing AGAINST watermarks -- they don't affect my ability to use
>>the book I've bought, but I don't consider them (or most anything else)
>>an effective anti-theft deterrant.
>>
> I would have thought that encouraging fanpro to put out more shadowrun
> books in ebook format as well as actual print books was enough deterrent
> but I gues I was wrong... serves me right for ignoring something I once
> heard in a movie but can't remember the movie title... the quote was "...
> always bet on stupidity" :P
>

I don't know about that. There is a case to be made that the thieves are
increasing sales. I mean, how often have you gotten someone to buy something
by lending them your copy ?

Admittedly with stolen pdfs the incentive to buy is somewhat reduced _if_
the person receiving the pdf prefers having a pdf to a hardcopy. This may be
somewhat offset however by the larger number of people having the
opportunity to evaluate the potential purchase, a situation that pretty much
guarantees that some who wouldn't have bought will now do so (if only to
encourage the company to continue to publish), while admittedly losing some
who would have bought (especially those who would have regretted the
decision, thus annoying them less & increasing the odds of their continued
purchasing from the company in the long term). Whether the potential
benefits offset the potential costs is something for the publisher to
determine. (Though I would point out that most SR books from 2e onwards that
aren't available as commercial pdfs have probably been scanned & even ocr'd
anyway....)

I would refer anyone who cares to www.baen.com/library (especially the Intro
& Prime Palaver sections) for some further information on the topic...
Message no. 46
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:15:17 -0500
> Admittedly with stolen pdfs the incentive to buy is somewhat reduced _if_
> the person receiving the pdf prefers having a pdf to a hardcopy.

Actually, speaking for myself.....I'd be a lot happier if the hardcopies
came WITH the PDF version.....making me pay an extra $25 for it is kind of a
slap in the face...
Message no. 47
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:31:51 -0600
On 6-Sep-05, at 9:15 PM, Derek Hyde wrote:

> Actually, speaking for myself.....I'd be a lot happier if the
> hardcopies
> came WITH the PDF version.....making me pay an extra $25 for it is
> kind of a
> slap in the face...

Next time I eat at a restaurant, I'm totally going to see if they'll
give me twice as much food for free, so I can have an entire meal of
leftovers for lunch the next day. I mean, _making_ me pay for food the
next day, that's totally a slap in the face.

Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 48
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:43:56 -0500
>> Actually, speaking for myself.....I'd be a lot happier if the
>> hardcopies
>> came WITH the PDF version.....making me pay an extra $25 for it is
>> kind of a
>> slap in the face...
>
> Next time I eat at a restaurant, I'm totally going to see if they'll
> give me twice as much food for free, so I can have an entire meal of
> leftovers for lunch the next day. I mean, _making_ me pay for food the
> next day, that's totally a slap in the face.
>
> Adam
> --

My apologies for the way it came out....I've had just a few shots....

I don't mind paying extra to get the PDF too, but I don't like the fact that
it's only $10 less than the hardcopy... Or if I'm inclined to order the
combo from battlecorps, it's $55 for the full set instead of $60....I'd be
happy to pay $50 or so for the package if I could get it from my local
store....or if there were some kind of a proof of purchase or something that
could be used (perhaps a coupon code) to buy the PDF online...

As far as twice as much...it's not, if you've got the time to sit infront of
the computer and read the PDF from start to end, then just buy the PDF, but
for those of us that'd just use the PDF as a quick reference during games
and such, it's not really as much value. But that's just me, not trying to
offend anyone, cause I know you've busted your tail with the PDFs and
whatnot Adam, I'm just kind of frustrated that in order to (legally) get the
pdf I've got to drop another $25 to get it when I'm already buying 2 to 3 of
the hardcopies...but, I guess it goes the same for everyone else....perhaps
once I get ahold of the hardcopy I'll see why it's worth dropping the cash
for the PDF.
Message no. 49
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:09:56 -0700
Derek Hyde wrote:
#
#>> Actually, speaking for myself.....I'd be a lot happier if the
#>> hardcopies came WITH the PDF version.....making me pay an extra $25
#>> for it is kind of a slap in the face...
#>
#> Next time I eat at a restaurant, I'm totally going to see if they'll
#> give me twice as much food for free, so I can have an entire meal of
#> leftovers for lunch the next day. I mean, _making_ me pay
#for food the
#> next day, that's totally a slap in the face.
#>
#> Adam
#> --
#
#My apologies for the way it came out....I've had just a few shots....
#
#I don't mind paying extra to get the PDF too, but I don't like
#the fact that it's only $10 less than the hardcopy... Or if
#I'm inclined to order the combo from battlecorps, it's $55 for
#the full set instead of $60....I'd be happy to pay $50 or so
#for the package if I could get it from my local store....or if
#there were some kind of a proof of purchase or something that
#could be used (perhaps a coupon code) to buy the PDF online...
#
#As far as twice as much...it's not, if you've got the time to
#sit infront of the computer and read the PDF from start to
#end, then just buy the PDF, but for those of us that'd just
#use the PDF as a quick reference during games and such, it's
#not really as much value. But that's just me, not trying to
#offend anyone, cause I know you've busted your tail with the
#PDFs and whatnot Adam, I'm just kind of frustrated that in
#order to (legally) get the pdf I've got to drop another $25 to
#get it when I'm already buying 2 to 3 of the hardcopies...but,
#I guess it goes the same for everyone else....perhaps once I
#get ahold of the hardcopy I'll see why it's worth dropping the
#cash for the PDF.
#

Actually, Derek, I happen to agree with you. If I'm purchasing the
hardcover, I should get a rather hefty discount on the PDF, IMO. Of course,
that isn't necessarily the case, but that's how I feel. As for Adam's work,
I'm glad for it. I purchased the PDF for $25, and from what I'm seeing, I
might just get the SR4 mainbook.

However, I'm hearing bad things about the SR4 mainbook already falling
apart. Now, this is third hand information, so take it with a couple grains
of salt.

Zebulin

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
WEB: http://www.zebulin.com/
MSN: zebulingod
YIM: zebulingod
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++
Message no. 50
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:02:42 +0200
According to Classified TS/BBR, on 7-9-05 04:15 the word on the street
was...

> Admittedly with stolen pdfs the incentive to buy is somewhat reduced
> _if_ the person receiving the pdf prefers having a pdf to a hardcopy.

IMHO there aren't too many people who feel that way. The majority of
gamers does not play with a computer within arm's reach, I think, so at
best they need the hardcopy book in addition to a PDF, rather than
instead of.

> (if only to encourage the company to continue to publish)

Very few people think that way, is my experience. Most people will
happily buy stuff elsewhere instead of at their local store (of whatever
kind that is) in order to save a few percents of the purchase price, and
will, a few years later, complain that the local store has closed due to
poor business :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 51
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3))
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:24:54 +0900
>> Actually, speaking for myself.....I'd be a lot happier if the
>> hardcopies
>> came WITH the PDF version.....making me pay an extra $25 for it is
>> kind of a
>> slap in the face...

>Next time I eat at a restaurant, I'm totally going to see if they'll
>give me twice as much food for free, so I can have an entire meal of
>leftovers for lunch the next day. I mean, _making_ me pay for food the
>next day, that's totally a slap in the face.

So does the new version still have to "flatten" each page before printing it
out? I tried to print out some of the fiction from the PDF and it took
forever.
Message no. 52
From: wolfjack@********.org (WolfJack)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 07:34:52 -0400
Derek Hyde wrote:

>for those of us that'd just use the PDF as a quick reference during games
>and such, it's not really as much value. But that's just me, not trying to
>
>
I don't understand this. How can it be not much value if you are using
it during every game session?? I think the full search is worth the
cost in and of itself; having to track down rule references, yes I do
know how to use and index and table of contents, and flipping back and
forth can be annoying.


>pdf I've got to drop another $25 to get it when I'm already buying 2 to 3 of
>the hardcopies...but, I guess it goes the same for everyone else....perhaps
>
>
And this just baffles me completely. You are complaining about the cost
of the PDF because you are buying multiple books?? How does this
relate?? If you want it, and like it, then buy it and be happy that you
are helping to support your game.

-Adam
Message no. 53
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 08:11:57 -0500
>> for those of us that'd just use the PDF as a quick reference during games
>> and such, it's not really as much value. But that's just me, not trying to
>>
>>
> I don't understand this. How can it be not much value if you are using
> it during every game session?? I think the full search is worth the
> cost in and of itself; having to track down rule references, yes I do
> know how to use and index and table of contents, and flipping back and
> forth can be annoying.

That's the point, those searches during character gen and on the fly during
games is the ONLY reason I want the PDF.


>> pdf I've got to drop another $25 to get it when I'm already buying 2 to 3 of
>> the hardcopies...but, I guess it goes the same for everyone else....perhaps
>>
>>
> And this just baffles me completely. You are complaining about the cost
> of the PDF because you are buying multiple books?? How does this
> relate?? If you want it, and like it, then buy it and be happy that you
> are helping to support your game.

I AM helping to support my game by purchasing a hardcopy for myself, one for
"the group" and one for my fiancee, I AM supporting my game by not going out
and finding it pirated and being content at that and not buying anything
else. And I AM supporting my game by trying to attract more players to the
game in my area, however, telling them that there's a PDF version that if
they want it they're gonna have to drop almost as much as the hardcopy if by
some chance they happen to want both.

Like Gurth said, very few gamers happen to play the game with a computer at
hand, myself being one that either will or won't depending on the number of
players I end up with once we shift to SR4, if I've got more than 4 players,
there won't be a computer to be found at the games, simply because they tend
to be more of a distraction than a tool, if it's a small game, it's all good
and fun and I'll have it there and the PDF can get used, but that's still to
say that it's assuming I don't sit down and read the hardcover well enough
to pick up all of the rules at a sufficient level to be able to go through
the game and not need to look up anything during a game (which is quite
often the case during my games unless someone wants to play rules lawyer and
argue with the GMs)

Derek
Message no. 54
From: adam@************.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:32:08 -0600
On 7-Sep-05, at 1:24 AM, Valeu, John W. EM3(AS40 R-3) wrote:

> So does the new version still have to "flatten" each page before
> printing it
> out? I tried to print out some of the fiction from the PDF and it took
> forever.

Reducing print/scroll time was one of the reasons the file was revised.

Adam

--
Adam Jury
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 55
From: rencheple@*******.net (Tim Martin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:42:32 -0400
Classified TS/BBR babbled:

> <snip> There is a case to be made that the thieves are increasing
> sales. I mean, how often have you gotten someone to buy something by
> lending them your copy ? <snip>

I read this comment earlier this morning and was able to resist the urge
to flame the poster...up until now. If it was just a case of playing
devil's advocate, then ignore what I am about to say. If this is a view
you subscribe to, then please read on...

Excuse me a moment. Did you say what I thought you said? Did you try
to justify a blatantly illegal, immoral action by claiming a fact that
you pulled out of your anus? (And don't even try to compare this to
downloading music and the RIAA unless you have an economics degree,
because the situation is VERY different.) Didn't your mommy ever teach
you not to steal? We may GM and play the shadowrunners, but that sure
as heck doesn't give you the right to act like an ignorant thief.

When you lend YOUR copy of a book to a friend you are also lending your
material possession rights to that book while it is in their
possession. You are putting your trust in your friend's sense of duty
and loyalty. Let's say your friend doesn't return it. Does that grant
you the right to appropriate a copy from your local gaming store? Of
course it doesn't. You would have to purchase a replacement,
irregardless of the original purchase because when your friend did not
return the book, you lost ownership.

When you purchase a Fanpro product, you are purchasing the intellectual
property and HARD WORK of Adam and all the other folks at Fanpro. They
are giving you ownership of a copy of their product for your personal
use. It doesn't matter if it is a hardcover or a PDF, you own that copy
and that copy only. If you lend out a hardcover, you cannot reference
that hardcover for as long as it is lent out. If you loan out a PDF,
then you shouldn't use the PDF for as long as it is lent out. Fanpro is
doing us a service making ti available in electronic format, and they
are trusting that we'll exercise restraint in how we use that service.

You steal from Fanpro, you are stealing from Adam, from every other
Fanpro employee and from every single Shadowrun player. You're not
increasing sales - you're STEALING. If you believe this and practice it,
you're a low-down, good-for-nothing, weak-willed stinking thief.

Tim
Message no. 56
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:03:37 -0700
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:42:32 -0400
Tim Martin <rencheple@*******.net> wrote:
> Classified TS/BBR babbled:
>
[snip]

> I read this comment earlier this morning and was able to resist the urge to
> flame the poster...up until now.
[snip]
> You steal from Fanpro, you are stealing from Adam, from every other Fanpro
> employee and from every single Shadowrun player. You're not increasing
> sales - you're STEALING. If you believe this and practice it, you're a
> low-down, good-for-nothing, weak-willed stinking thief.
>
> Tim
>

Oh, please. I'm a part time retailer, and in theory they'd be stealing from
me, too, but... This isn't a flame board.

--Anders
Message no. 57
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:19:49 +0000
Tim Martin wrote:

>
> When you lend YOUR copy of a book to a friend you are also lending your
> material possession rights to that book while it is in their
> possession. You are putting your trust in your friend's sense of duty
> and loyalty. Let's say your friend doesn't return it. Does that grant
> you the right to appropriate a copy from your local gaming store? Of
> course it doesn't. You would have to purchase a replacement,
> irregardless of the original purchase because when your friend did not
> return the book, you lost ownership.
>

Actually, if said friend did not return it, said friend would begin to lose his own
possessions until said copy is returned.

> When you purchase a Fanpro product, you are purchasing the intellectual
> property and HARD WORK of Adam and all the other folks at Fanpro. They
> are giving you ownership of a copy of their product for your personal
> use. It doesn't matter if it is a hardcover or a PDF, you own that copy
> and that copy only. If you lend out a hardcover, you cannot reference
> that hardcover for as long as it is lent out. If you loan out a PDF,
> then you shouldn't use the PDF for as long as it is lent out. Fanpro is
> doing us a service making ti available in electronic format, and they
> are trusting that we'll exercise restraint in how we use that service.
>

How, exactly, does one "loan" a PDF? You don't. You give it to someone via
copying. To loan would mean you give them the copy and erase it from your media. Then,
they do the same thing when they give it back. Very few people I know do that.

Zebulin
Message no. 58
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:38:59 -0600
On 9/7/05, zebulingod@*******.net <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>
> How, exactly, does one "loan" a PDF? You don't. You give it to someone via
copying. To loan would mean you give them the copy and erase it from your media. Then,
they do the same thing when they give it back. Very few people I know do that.

In a perfect world?

You download the PDF and burn it to CD. Then you delete the copy from
your hard drive. You loan the CD to a friend and he respectfully does
not copy it to his hard drive.

--
-Graht
Message no. 59
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:41:53 -0600
On 9/7/05, Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:
> On 9/7/05, zebulingod@*******.net <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> >
> > How, exactly, does one "loan" a PDF? You don't. You give it to someone
via copying. To loan would mean you give them the copy and erase it from your media. Then,
they do the same thing when they give it back. Very few people I know do that.
>
> In a perfect world?
>
> You download the PDF and burn it to CD. Then you delete the copy from
> your hard drive. You loan the CD to a friend and he respectfully does
> not copy it to his hard drive.

Oh hey, look at that, I didn't read your entire post and basically
said the same thing you did and made myself look like an idiot... :/

--
-Graht
Message no. 60
From: keith@***********.com (Keith Johnson)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:44:51 -0700
>Excuse me a moment. Did you say what I thought you said?
>Did you try to justify a blatantly illegal, immoral action
>by claiming a fact that you pulled out of your anus?


>(And don't even try to compare this to downloading music
>and the RIAA unless you have an economics degree,
> because the situation is VERY different.)

Umm... it's exactly the same... in every way. Well, I
guess the scale is a bit smaller, but the statistics
remain the same... people who pirate are also the folks
who spend the most money, AND do the best job of marketing
of the products to those who end up spending money.

You may feel a bit miffed, but that's your feeling. It's
not mine. I know for a fact that FanPro will make its
money back and then some on the sale of the hard copy
books. I know that the conversion of the print book
to pdf takes very little compensable time (we on this
list have watched the tweaks happen in almost realtime).
Fanpro is in profit with the pdf already... any other
sales they get in the next year are gravy.

And if some loser gives away 50 copies of a pdf to
people who wouldn't have bought the thing in the first
place, two things are true:

1 Fanpro isn't out any money because those people
wouldn't have bought the pdf anyway, and

2 Fanpro gets free marketing buzz for this and all
their other products because the thief increased
interest in Fanpro's product line with his giveaway.


One of the myriad things I do to earn a living
is I publish books, hard copy. Most of them are my
wife's books on the business of acting. Most of our
sales are generated by the buzz of us giving away books
at events.

People get so excited that they got something for free
that they tell their friends about it. We get more
sales after we do one of those events than we do
with any other kind of marketing.


So your pompous, selfrighteous flame is hopelessly
misdirected given the realities of the business-world
of today.


I have rewritten this message 3 times to take as
much venom out as I can... I hope my point still
gets across.
Message no. 61
From: allen.versfeld@*****.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:51:46 +0200
On 9/7/05, Tim Martin <rencheple@*******.net> wrote:
> Classified TS/BBR babbled:
>
> > <snip> There is a case to be made that the thieves are increasing
> > sales. I mean, how often have you gotten someone to buy something by
> > lending them your copy ? <snip>
>
> I read this comment earlier this morning and was able to resist the urge
> to flame the poster...up until now. If it was just a case of playing
> devil's advocate, then ignore what I am about to say. If this is a view
> you subscribe to, then please read on...
>
> Excuse me a moment. Did you say what I thought you said? Did you try
> to justify a blatantly illegal, immoral action by claiming a fact that


[snip]

Speak for yourself. My moral code is not linked to the legal code.
Old laws which allowed the keeping of slaves are clearly immoral, but
still legal. Laws preventing me from taping my own CDs so I can play
them in my car may be becoming more and more rigorously enforced, but
doing so anyway doesn't give me the slightest moral qualm.
Message no. 62
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:07:16 -0400
On Sep 7, 2005, at 16:51, Allen Versfeld wrote:

> On 9/7/05, Tim Martin <rencheple@*******.net> wrote:
>> Classified TS/BBR babbled:
>>
>>> <snip> There is a case to be made that the thieves are increasing
>>> sales. I mean, how often have you gotten someone to buy something by
>>> lending them your copy ? <snip>
>>
>> I read this comment earlier this morning and was able to resist the
>> urge
>> to flame the poster...up until now. If it was just a case of playing
>> devil's advocate, then ignore what I am about to say. If this is a
>> view
>> you subscribe to, then please read on...
>>
>> Excuse me a moment. Did you say what I thought you said? Did you try
>> to justify a blatantly illegal, immoral action by claiming a fact that
>
>
> [snip]
>
> Speak for yourself. My moral code is not linked to the legal code.
> Old laws which allowed the keeping of slaves are clearly immoral, but
> still legal. Laws preventing me from taping my own CDs so I can play
> them in my car may be becoming more and more rigorously enforced, but
> doing so anyway doesn't give me the slightest moral qualm.
>
>
Depending on where you live, taping a CD you own so YOU can play it in
your car is perfectly legal and falls under the category of fair use.
So, is loaning the CD to another person as long as you are not playing
your taped copy at the same time the friend is playing the CD. Note
that the friend is not permitted to copy the CD.

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison
Message no. 63
From: ClassifiedTSBBR@*****.net.nz (Classified TS/BBR)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:18:36 +1200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Martin" <rencheple@*******.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
<snip>
> Classified TS/BBR babbled:
<snip>
>
> You steal from Fanpro, you are stealing from Adam, from every other Fanpro
> employee and from every single Shadowrun player. You're not increasing
> sales - you're STEALING. If you believe this and practice it, you're a
> low-down, good-for-nothing, weak-willed stinking thief.
>

1) what if I believe but don't practice ? (My beliefs after all do not
change the law)

2) Weak-willed ? how so ?

3) did you actually bother looking at www.baen.com/library ?

Any further communication should probably be in private email. use the
address I'm sending this from.
Message no. 64
From: sfeley@*****.com (Stephen Eley)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:37:21 -0400
On 9/7/05, Classified TS/BBR <ClassifiedTSBBR@*****.net.nz> wrote:
>
> 3) did you actually bother looking at www.baen.com/library ?

The difference is that Baen's authors are giving permission for their
works to be freely distributed. They had the rights to their own
books, and this is what they decided to do with them.

Or do you disagree that the creator of a work should have any right to
decide how it's sold or given away?



--
Have Fun,
Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com)
ESCAPE POD - the SF podcast magazine
http://escape.extraneous.org
Message no. 65
From: ClassifiedTSBBR@*****.net.nz (Classified TS/BBR)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:52:45 +1200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Eley" <sfeley@*****.com>
<snip>
> On 9/7/05, Classified TS/BBR <ClassifiedTSBBR@*****.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> > 3) did you actually bother looking at www.baen.com/library ?
>
> The difference is that Baen's authors are giving permission for their
> works to be freely distributed. They had the rights to their own
> books, and this is what they decided to do with them.
>
> Or do you disagree that the creator of a work should have any right to
> decide how it's sold or given away?

Interestingly enough, I do support the creators rights.

I also believe that the still benefit (financially) somewhat when those
rights are ignored in the manner under discussion.

This does not mean that I necessarily condone said theft, or that I would
practice it. But I do believe there are mitigating factors.
Message no. 66
From: tevel@******.com (Tevel Drinkwater)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:03:07 -0700
"Classified TS/BBR" <ClassifiedTSBBR@*****.net.nz> wrote:

> I don't know about that. There is a case to be made that the thieves
> are increasing sales. I mean, how often have you gotten someone to buy
> something by lending them your copy ?
>
Now, what effect to public libraries have on the publishing industry?
Always lending books to just about anybody with a library card...

> Admittedly with stolen pdfs the incentive to buy is somewhat reduced
> _if_ the person receiving the pdf prefers having a pdf to a hardcopy.
> This may be somewhat offset however by the larger number of people
> having the opportunity to evaluate the potential purchase, a situation
> that pretty much guarantees that some who wouldn't have bought will
> now do so (if only to encourage the company to continue to publish),
> while admittedly losing some who would have bought (especially those
> who would have regretted the decision, thus annoying them less &
> increasing the odds of their continued purchasing from the company in
> the long term). Whether the potential benefits offset the potential
> costs is something for the publisher to determine. (Though I would
> point out that most SR books from 2e onwards that aren't available as
> commercial pdfs have probably been scanned & even ocr'd anyway....)
>
> I would refer anyone who cares to www.baen.com/library (especially the
> Intro & Prime Palaver sections) for some further information on the
> topic...

Baen included a CD with one of the more recent Honor Harrington novels
by David Weber. Because I hadn't read the first few books in the
series, I'd never bothered to try any of the later ones. I suppose I
might've borrowed them from the library, but the inclusion of the CD
made it real easy to get up to speed. I read them on my Palm Pilot,
which was rather handy. Of course, their insidious inclusion of other
books on the CD got me reading other authors, and soon I was reading
John Ringo's March to the Stars series and Posleen war series, amongst
others. I also bought other Baen books in hardcover that included the
CD, and new releases (in hardcover nonetheless!) from authors I was
introduced to by the Free Library. Indeed that's how I got hooked on
Eric Flint's own 1632 series. Baen certainly made back any hypothetical
losses the may have incurred by giving away versions of novels I never
would have bought anyways.

A little more on topic, I learned about Eden Game Studios Witchcraft
game through their core book being offered as a free download (
http://www.edenstudios.net/witchcraft/ ). I have since bought a
hardcover copy of the core book, along with another of our game group,
plus I've bought a couple of the expansions. Another couple of copies
were printed out and spiral bound as group copies for when we play
(thank god for ink jet refill kits).

Having said all this, I have no idea whether it would make sense for
Fanpro to do this. The Free Library is mostly the earlier books in a
series and older books by current authors, to introduce you to authors
you might not otherwise have read. Did Baen's experiment succeed? My
experience is only anecdotal. As for Eden Game Studious, I also have no
idea how it is all working out.

All in all, I really do appreciate the option of buying an electronic
version (especially unencumbered by DRM). I do think that the hardcover
is a "better buy", but their is certainly some added utility to the
ebook version. In fact, since it's a bit of a drive to my (not-so)
local game store, maybe I'll go buy the ebook version right now for some
instant gratification. I just worked some overtime, and can afford it.
Besides, it sounds like Adam and the gang did a great job of putting it
together. And I will be buying the hardcopy at my local gamestore when
it is in stock also.

-Tev

P.S. Disclaimer- I'm certainly not trying to criticize the hard working
sararimen at Fanpro for not making the same marketing decisions as Baen
and Eden, it's simply that this is a subject that I've been interested
in ever since I first read Eric Flint's introduction to the Free Library
at Baen. It is certainly a new frontier for the whole publishing
industry, along with other's I suppose.
Message no. 67
From: lrdslvrhnd@*****.com (Kevin McB)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 00:49:39 -0400
On 9/7/05, Tevel Drinkwater <tevel@******.com> wrote:
>
>
> Baen included a CD with one of the more recent Honor Harrington novels
> by David Weber. Because I hadn't read the first few books in the
> series, I'd never bothered to try any of the later ones. I suppose I
> might've borrowed them from the library, but the inclusion of the CD
> made it real easy to get up to speed. I read them on my Palm Pilot,
> which was rather handy. Of course, their insidious inclusion of other
> books on the CD got me reading other authors, and soon I was reading
> John Ringo's March to the Stars series and Posleen war series, amongst
> others. I also bought other Baen books in hardcover that included the
> CD, and new releases (in hardcover nonetheless!) from authors I was
> introduced to by the Free Library. Indeed that's how I got hooked on
> Eric Flint's own 1632 series. Baen certainly made back any hypothetical
> losses the may have incurred by giving away versions of novels I never
> would have bought anyways.


Woohoo! A fellow Honor Harrington fan! *g* Yeah, it was one of those CDs
which got me buying the Posleen series also... I probably would've
eventually bought the March To The Stars series regardless, just because
David Weber was involved, but that convinced me to go ahead and buy it
sooner, rather than later lol

And having sent a link to the Baen Online Library's copy of "On Basilisk
Station" to a friend, I'm rather certain they'll *more* than make their
money back on us, once she starts reading it, and then buying the novels LOL

I dont' know about the various legalities or licenses involved, what with
Shadowrun having changed hands, but I think it would make sense to offer the
earlier books (1st and 2nd edition, at least) for free, if at all possible.
While books such as Shadowtech & The Street Samurai Catalog have been
largely supplanted by M&M and Cannon Companion, the commentary in them are
still good - and the descriptions in RBB which were nowhere to be found in
Rigger 2 are a must for those vehicles LOL (such as one car... I distinctly
remember a description of a car where the passengers sit side by side in the
front, and the driver sits behind them and in the middle, raised up to see
over them. At least, I *think* I do. But since I only have R2, I can't check
which one it is LOL And no mention of the problems w/ one of the car's
anti-wheel-theft device, which I also remember) And of course, location
books are still (fairly) useful. (Man, I'd love to read through Tir na nOg
again. Loaned that to a friend and never got it back... Been 10 years, don't
think I'm gonna at this point 8-} )

Basically... books that are out of print should, IMHO, be free PDFs. I
realize a lot of them are cheap, but I'm not going to pay $5 or whatever for
RBB, not with R2 in my collection LOL No matter how much fun the 'flavor
text' is 8-}

(Yeah, I realize a lot of work probably went into making those PDFs,
especially if they're not just scanned and uploaded. But hey, for free, I'd
happily settle for a non-searchable file LOL - I can scroll through pages
almost as easily as I can flip through 'em 8-} )

Kevin... no, I'm not complaining, just commenting 8-}
Message no. 68
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:13:22 +0200
According to zebulingod@*******.net, on 7-9-05 22:19 the word on the
street was...

> How, exactly, does one "loan" a PDF? You don't. You give it to
> someone via copying. To loan would mean you give them the copy
> and erase it from your media. Then, they do the same thing when
> they give it back.

Well... you could put your copy onto a CD-ROM then delete it from your
hard drive (because you need the space or whatever), and loan the CD-ROM
to a friend. That would be analoguous to loaning out a hardcopy book,
except that it's easier for the friend to make a copy of the CD-ROM than
of a book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 69
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:29:59 +0200
According to Scott Harrison, on 7-9-05 23:07 the word on the street was...

> Depending on where you live, taping a CD you own so YOU can play it
> in your car is perfectly legal and falls under the category of fair
> use. So, is loaning the CD to another person as long as you are not
> playing your taped copy at the same time the friend is playing the CD.
> Note that the friend is not permitted to copy the CD.

Note that you are talking about US copyright laws. Dutch ones, for
example, are somewhat different; although I haven't really looked into
it, it's my understanding that copying most things is legal in this
country as long as it's for your own use only. This includes making
copies of friends' books that they loaned to you, and you can legally
keep the copies after you've given back the originals ... It is,
however, illegal to disable any anti-copying protection measures that
may be present on the original.

To be precise, §5, article 16b of the Dutch "Auteurswet 1912":
[1.] Als inbreuk op het auteursrecht op een werk van
letterkunde, wetenschap of kunst wordt niet beschouwd, tenzij
het een met elektronische middelen toegankelijke verzameling als
bedoeld in artikel 10, derde lid betreft, de verveelvoudiging,
welke beperkt blijft tot enkele exemplaren en uitsluitend dient
tot eigen oefening, studie of gebruik van degene die de
verveelvoudiging vervaardigt of tot het verveelvoudigen
uitsluitend ten behoeve van zichzelf opdracht geeft.
(from http://www.ivir.nl/wetten/nl/auteurswet.html)

Paraphrased, this says that copying of a literary or scientific work or
work of art is allowed if it remains limited to a few copies and is
intended only for study by the person doing or ordering the copying.
This does not apply if the work is a "collection accessible through
electronic means" (as defined elsewhere), so it looks like copying the
SR4 PDF is illegal over here, but copying the SR4 hardcopy rulebook is
not -- as long as you do it for your own use.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 70
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:34:06 +0200
According to Tevel Drinkwater, on 8-9-05 05:03 the word on the street was...

>> I don't know about that. There is a case to be made that the thieves
>> are increasing sales. I mean, how often have you gotten someone to buy
>> something by lending them your copy ?
>>
> Now, what effect to public libraries have on the publishing industry?
> Always lending books to just about anybody with a library card...

I don't know about other countries, but on my browsing through Dutch
copyright law for my other post on this, I noticed that recognized
libraries are specifically exempted from certain clauses.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 71
From: The_Sarge@***.de (MatthÀus_Cebulla)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:12:44 +0200
So... Is anyone here already toying around with a new character sheet
for SR4? Yesterday I designed my first runner, who has a rating 3 Cyber-
eye system. Problem is: This nearly filled up the Cyberware-box alone.
(It used up three lines, two of which were the systems in the eyes)
And he really isn't a cybernetic character. But I think if someone would
go the Cybereyes and Cyberears road, they might face some problems...

And it seems to be missing a box for general gear (I think I will use
the 'Datapic' space for this now).

Will I have to rely on my own meagre In-Design and/or Excel skills, or
has some kind soul already done the deed?

Are there any chance for Wordman going at it again, for the new edition?
(I would pay you, actually.)

. . .

And a question to Adam: Is there a, ever so slight, chance of Fanpro
releasing the character sheet graphics as a 'graphic tileset' for the
fans to use in their sheets? (Like some videogame-companies do with
graphics and banners and such for fan-pages...)

Well... That's it.

The best,
Matthäus
Message no. 72
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 07:48:42 -0700
Stephen Eley wrote:
#
#Or do you disagree that the creator of a work should have any
#right to decide how it's sold or given away?
#

My problem with copyright laws (in the US, specifically) is that
racketeering monopolies such as the RIAA and MPAA are trying to kill Fair
Use by limiting copyright with draconian measures.

Zebulin

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
WEB: http://www.zebulin.com/
MSN: zebulingod
YIM: zebulingod
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++
Message no. 73
From: sfeley@*****.com (Stephen Eley)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:57:36 -0400
On 9/8/05, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Stephen Eley wrote:
> #
> #Or do you disagree that the creator of a work should have any
> #right to decide how it's sold or given away?
> #
>
> My problem with copyright laws (in the US, specifically) is that
> racketeering monopolies such as the RIAA and MPAA are trying to kill Fair
> Use by limiting copyright with draconian measures.

You're right, that sucks. I'm opposed to it as well.

Now what does it have to do with the Shadowrun PDFs? They're not even
DRMed. In what way is fair use restricted?

--
Have Fun,
Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com)
ESCAPE POD - the SF podcast magazine
http://escape.extraneous.org
Message no. 74
From: keith@***********.com (Keith Johnson)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:41:41 -0700
>>My problem with copyright laws (in the US, specifically)
>>is that racketeering monopolies such as the RIAA and MPAA
>>are trying to kill Fair Use by limiting copyright with
>>draconian measures.
>
> You're right, that sucks. I'm opposed to it as well.
>
> Now what does it have to do with the Shadowrun PDFs?
>They're not even DRMed. In what way is fair use restricted?

Well, lets go back a ways to the original Napster law suits...

The Fair Use sections of copyright law in the US are written
to say that you are allowed to make copies of stuff you
have purchased, and you can hand out those copies as long
as you (or anyone you hand copies to) makes any money off
them.

Now, the laws were written waaaaaayyyy before digital media,
so the thought was that 'make copies and hand them out'
meant maybe a half dozen and to people on the block.

Napster's appeals had everything to do with the fact that
if there's a problem with the wording of the law, it's
the legislauture's place to fix it, not the court's.

Technically, Napster was correct. The problem that they
faced was that the RIAA's lawyers convinced the judges
that the scale of the abuse was so incredible and the
timetable for the law makers to correct things was too
long, so they asked the courts to put a stop to the abuse.

The courts said (all through the appeals process) that
Napster had gone 'too far.'

The problem with that was that they failed to define
'too far' and it became like pornography in the US
courts (ie I can't define it, but I know it when I
see it).

So, it is still technically legal in the US under Fair
Use to copy digital documents and hand them out for free.
There just comes a time when someone say, 'hey that's
going too far.' Then they have to take you to court
and the judge has to agree that it's too far.


Whatever.

-k, Rules Lawyer for a reason
Message no. 75
From: sfeley@*****.com (Stephen Eley)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:29:43 -0400
On 9/8/05, Keith Johnson <keith@***********.com> wrote:
> >
> > Now what does it have to do with the Shadowrun PDFs?
> >They're not even DRMed. In what way is fair use restricted?
>
> The Fair Use sections of copyright law in the US are written
> to say that you are allowed to make copies of stuff you
> have purchased, and you can hand out those copies as long
> as you (or anyone you hand copies to) makes any money off
> them.

Completely, totally, comprehensively incorrect.

Fair use allows you to make a copy of material you have bought *for
your own personal use.* As soon as you start distributing those
copies, you have violated copyright. Whether you make any money or
not is immaterial.

See:
http://www.eff.org/cafe/gross1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

Those links are from about twenty seconds of Googling. Now imagine
how much you'd learn if you spent *an entire minute* verifying your
facts before you posted!


> -k, Rules Lawyer for a reason

You're a lousy one. Learn the rules first, *then* lawyer.

--
Have Fun,
Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com)
ESCAPE POD - the SF podcast magazine
http://escape.extraneous.org
Message no. 76
From: sfeley@*****.com (Stephen Eley)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:38:52 -0400
On 9/8/05, Stephen Eley <sfeley@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Those links are from about twenty seconds of Googling. Now imagine
> how much you'd learn if you spent *an entire minute* verifying your
> facts before you posted!

Urgh. Before anyone else jumps on it, I'd like to apologize for the
tone in my last message. I generally try to read my posts a couple of
times and judge them befoe hitting the 'Submit' button, but I let my
impatience run away from me this time, and it was inappropriate.

I do stand by the substance of my message, if not its style. As a
writer and a paying publisher, myths and misunderstandings about
copyright are a 'hot button' issue for me, and their pervasiveness
even among educated audiences gets frustrating after a while. Keith
took the brunt of a lot of annoyance I've had at a lot of people, and
he didn't deserve much of it.

So, I'm sorry.

But please, *please*, everyone, do try to read some of the many
reliable resources on modern copyright and its applications before
making claims about what's permissible and what isn't. You might be
surprised, both ways.

--
Have Fun,
Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com)
ESCAPE POD - the SF podcast magazine
http://escape.extraneous.org
Message no. 77
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:22:11 +0000
On 9/8/05, Stephen <sfeley@*****.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/8/05, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> > Stephen Eley wrote:
> > #
> > #Or do you disagree that the creator of a work should have any
> > #right to decide how it's sold or given away?
> > #
> >
> > My problem with copyright laws (in the US, specifically) is that
> > racketeering monopolies such as the RIAA and MPAA are trying to kill Fair
> > Use by limiting copyright with draconian measures.
>
> You're right, that sucks. I'm opposed to it as well.
>
> Now what does it have to do with the Shadowrun PDFs? They're not even
> DRMed. In what way is fair use restricted?
>

In this case, not at all. I was merely replying to your broad question with an answer not
limited in scope to SR4. [:

Zebulin
Message no. 78
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:27:38 +0000
> On 9/8/05, Stephen Eley <sfeley@*****.com> wrote:
>
> But please, *please*, everyone, do try to read some of the many
> reliable resources on modern copyright and its applications before
> making claims about what's permissible and what isn't. You might be
> surprised, both ways.
>

All I want to be able to do is download/purchase something and be able to rip it to MP3,
put it on "compilation" discs or what have you, or record it to audio, or
whatever the hell else I want to do with it...for MY OWN USE.

As I understand it, that is covered under fair use, right?

Zebulin
Message no. 79
From: sfeley@*****.com (Stephen Eley)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:59:31 -0400
On 9/8/05, zebulingod@*******.net <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>
> All I want to be able to do is download/purchase something and be able to rip it to
MP3, put it on "compilation" discs or what have you, or record it to audio, or
whatever the hell else I want to do with it...for MY OWN USE.
>
> As I understand it, that is covered under fair use, right?

The short answer is "Yes, it is."

Unfortunately, the longer answer is more complicated than that:
although you do have the legal right to make copies for your own use,
the DMCA says that a distributor has the right to apply copy-blocking
technologies to content, and it's illegal to try to subvert those
technologies *even if the copy would be legal.*

Many people (myself included) believe that this is a deeply stupid
law, and the EFF is working hard to fight it and to prevent further
erosion of your rights as a content consumer. If you believe in this
cause, send them money or write your congressman.

But none of this means in any way that you have any right (pre-DMCA or
post-DMCA) to give away copies of a work without permission.

--
Have Fun,
Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com)
ESCAPE POD - the SF podcast magazine
http://escape.extraneous.org
Message no. 80
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:03:41 -0400
On Sep 8, 2005, at 14:27, zebulingod@*******.net wrote:

>> On 9/8/05, Stephen Eley <sfeley@*****.com> wrote:
>>
>> But please, *please*, everyone, do try to read some of the many
>> reliable resources on modern copyright and its applications before
>> making claims about what's permissible and what isn't. You might be
>> surprised, both ways.
>>
>
> All I want to be able to do is download/purchase something and be able
> to rip it to MP3, put it on "compilation" discs or what have you, or
> record it to audio, or whatever the hell else I want to do with
> it...for MY OWN USE.
>
> As I understand it, that is covered under fair use, right?
>
Sounds like it.

It sounds like you want to use the iTunes Music Store because it
allows you to do basically that -- although limits your computer use to
I believe 5 machines.

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison
Message no. 81
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:08:50 +0000
On 9/8/05 Steve Eley (sfeley@*****.com) wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, the longer answer is more complicated than that:
> although you do have the legal right to make copies for your own use,
> the DMCA says that a distributor has the right to apply copy-blocking
> technologies to content, and it's illegal to try to subvert those
> technologies *even if the copy would be legal.*
>
> Many people (myself included) believe that this is a deeply stupid
> law, and the EFF is working hard to fight it and to prevent further
> erosion of your rights as a content consumer. If you believe in this
> cause, send them money or write your congressman.
>
> But none of this means in any way that you have any right (pre-DMCA or
> post-DMCA) to give away copies of a work without permission.
>

Oh, I happen to agree that the DMCA is a load of crap, and am actively helping those
organizations whenever I get the chance. As to your last point, yes, I'd also agree to
that, except wherein I give up any rights of my own to said work and give it completely
away (without getting money for it, and removing it entirely from my possession).

Zebulin
Message no. 82
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: SR4 PDF
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 00:13:37 +0200
On 8 Sep 2005, at 21:03, Scott Harrison wrote:

> It sounds like you want to use the iTunes Music Store because
> it allows you to do basically that -- although limits your computer
> use to I believe 5 machines.

Five computers, an unlimited number of iPods, and unrestricted
burning to audio CDs, meaning you can convert the things back to MP3
or unprotected AAC without trouble.

-- Wild_Cat





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