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Message no. 1
From: KiltedJamesman@***.com (KiltedJamesman@***.com)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 16:33:48 EDT

In a message dated 10/29/2005 12:57:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> I would suggest that the target number should be 5, just as all other
> target numbers in SR4 :-)

I think KiltedJamesMan may not be fully aware of that ;)



You're very correct in your assumption. TN 5 on everything?!? That seems a
tad overkill to me. Between that and having checked out the character sheets for
SR4 I'm not so sure I'd like the "upgrade" very much. SR3 I liked cause they
didn't monkey around too much with the rules that were there, but the latest
edition seems to be something of a major overhaul. Am I correct in this or
would it behoove me to get my hands on a copy of the new book and flip through it
before forming a concrete opinion?

Just my .02¥
The Mad Kilted Cyberzombie GM
Message no. 2
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 22:49:47 +0200
From: <KiltedJamesman@***.com>
>> In a message dated 10/29/2005 12:57:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>> gurth@******.nl writes:
>>
>>> I would suggest that the target number should be 5, just as all other
>>> target numbers in SR4 :-)
>>
>> I think KiltedJamesMan may not be fully aware of that ;)
>
> You're very correct in your assumption. TN 5 on everything?!? That seems a
> tad overkill to me. Between that and having checked out the character
> sheets for
> SR4 I'm not so sure I'd like the "upgrade" very much. SR3 I liked cause
> they
> didn't monkey around too much with the rules that were there, but the
> latest
> edition seems to be something of a major overhaul. Am I correct in this or
> would it behoove me to get my hands on a copy of the new book and flip
> through it
> before forming a concrete opinion?

SR4 is a whole new rules set. Fixed T# of 5. Rolling attribute+ skill. Each
dice rolling 5 or 6 is a hit, more hits are better. Easyer to make a fumble
(now called glitch). More attributes.

Check out teh SR4 FAQ at
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/index.php?cat=2, which will answer
some questions, and ask the rest here.

Lars (with his nr. 812 LE)
Just my .02¥
The Mad Kilted Cyberzombie GM
Message no. 3
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 15:31:11 -0700
[snip]
or would it behoove me to get my hands on a copy of the new book and flip
through it before forming a concrete opinion?

Just my .02¥
The Mad Kilted Cyberzombie Gm

I'd suggest it. Besides, its the game, now.
--Anders
Message no. 4
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:09:44 +0100
From: <KiltedJamesman@***.com>
> You're very correct in your assumption. TN 5 on everything?!? That seems a
> tad overkill to me. Between that and having checked out the character
> sheets for SR4 I'm not so sure I'd like the "upgrade" very much. SR3 I
> liked cause they didn't monkey around too much with the rules that were
> there, but the latest edition seems to be something of a major overhaul.
> Am I correct in this or would it behoove me to get my hands on a copy of
> the new book and flip through it before forming a concrete opinion?

I've taken this from the SR4 pdf, and I hope this is not to much, otherwise
I'm sure I'll be told so.

It seems like it should be OK to distribute this, as it is obvious for old
players of SR:

"For veterans of Shadowrun, Third Edition (and the first and second
editions!), here's the lowdown on important mechanical concepts that have
changed:

* Dice pools no longer exist in their SR3 form. They are now attribute +
skill +/- modifiers.

* The target number for dice rolls is now always 5. Yes, all target numbers.
Modifiers add or subtract from dice pools, not the target number.

* Each roll of 5 or 6 is a "hit" rather than a "success." Success is
determined by the number of hits scored.

* The Rule of One is triggered more frequently, and may be triggered even
when the roll is successful. See Glitches, p. 55. We feel your pain.

* The Rule of Six no longer applies, except when you are using Edge. See p.
67.

* Open Tests no longer exist.

* A new type of test-Extended Tests-has been added.

* The maximum for natural, unaugmented Physical and Mental attribute ratings
is now 6 (plus metatype modifiers).

* Intelligence is divided into two new attributes: Intuition and Logic.

* Quickness is divided into two new attributes: Agility and Reaction
(Reaction is no longer a derived attribute).

* Initiative is now a derived attribute (Reaction + Intuition).

* Two new attributes have been added: Edge (luck) and Resonance (for
technomancers).

* Magic no longer starts at 6; it must be purchased just like other
attributes.

* Bioware and cyberware both reduce Essence, but they are tracked separately
and the lesser value counts at half.

* Exclusive Actions no longer exist.

* You may now purchase skill groups-groups of related skills with a cheaper
bundled cost.

* All types of combat are now handled as Opposed Tests.

* Condition Monitors are no longer fixed at 10 boxes (see Condition
Monitors, p. 65).

* Wound Levels are gone and Damage Codes were changed to a single Damage
Value (see p. 152) and an Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 152).

* Matrix attributes and ratings are radically different (see The Wireless
World, p. 205).

* Street Index, Legality, Concealability, and Weight have been removed from
gear statistics in favor of simplified systems."

Lars
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:22:43 +0100
According to KiltedJamesman@***.com, on 29-10-05 22:33 the word on the
street was...

> You're very correct in your assumption. TN 5 on everything?!? That seems a
> tad overkill to me.

The idea is that it makes the game easier to learn and play, and in that
it succeeds quite well. It certainly speeds up play if you're the kind
of GM who doesn't give out TNs much, because you don't have to ask
players "What did you roll?" and then work out how many successes they
had -- you just say "Roll your <whatever>" and they report back "I
got
two hits".

> the latest
> edition seems to be something of a major overhaul. Am I correct in this

Yes. The new edition has completely overhauled the rules, so that
basically none of the SR1/II/3 rules will be usable with it without at
least some modifications.

> or
> would it behoove me to get my hands on a copy of the new book and flip through it
> before forming a concrete opinion?

Yes again. Please do not fall into the same trap many people here did
six months ago and form an opinion before you've actually seen (and
preferably played with) the new rules.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:00:53 -0600
> the latest
> edition seems to be something of a major overhaul. Am I correct in this or
> would it behoove me to get my hands on a copy of the new book and flip through
> it
> before forming a concrete opinion?
>
> Just my .02¥
> The Mad Kilted Cyberzombie GM

Tis true, it is a full overhaul, SR4 is to Shadowrun as D&D 3rd Edition was
to AD&D, it's a totally different system, attempts to convert characters
will just bring frustration forth.

As far as whether or not you should get a copy and read it before forming a
solid opinion, I say yes, because, as we all know, opinions are like
assholes, everyone has one and they all.....(insert your own ending here)
Message no. 7
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:59:17 -0800 (PST)
> As far as whether or not you should get a copy and read it before
> forming a solid opinion, I say yes, because, as we all know,
opinions > are like assholes, everyone has one and they
all.....(insert your own > ending here)

...serve the invaluable purpose of getting the drek out in the open?

======Korishinzo
--or is that the wrong quote?


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Message no. 8
From: zealey@****.net.au (James Zealey)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:34:51 +1100
> Derek Hyde <derek@***************.com>
>
> Tis true, it is a full overhaul, SR4 is to Shadowrun as D&D 3rd Edition was
> to AD&D,

I'd disagree with that. 3rd edition D&D actually fixed problems and kept
to the core mechanic of 2nd. The book was more readable, the rules much,
much more clear. So far, reading through SR 4, I'm not really seeing
those positive effects. The rules are slightly better in places, but
then someone seems to have come along and wrecked half of the positive
changes.

> it's a totally different system, attempts to convert characters
> will just bring frustration forth.

I can't really see that - it's easier than a lot of other conversions
(ie - 3rd ed D&D).
Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR4 vs SR2&3... was Re: Shock Ammo
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:51:56 +0100
According to James Zealey, on 31-10-05 00:34 the word on the street was...

> I'd disagree with that. 3rd edition D&D actually fixed problems and kept
> to the core mechanic of 2nd.

Huh? IMHO core mechanics of 2nd edition AD&D are rolling 1D20 over your
THAC0 to attack, rolling 1D20 below your (characteristic + proficiency
ratings) to do skill checks, and rolling saving throws vs. a
class-and-level-derived number on 1D20.

Whereas core mechanics of 3rd edition D&D are to derive modifiers from
your class, level, characteristics, skills, and other sources, and add
them to your 1D20 roll vs. a target number.

I don't see how the core mechanics have been kept. Problems fixed,
certainly, but about the only core mechanics that WotC kept, were levels
and hit points :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Please do not read the lyrics whilst listening to the recordings.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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