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Message no. 1
From: Jill <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:29:06 GMT
MY GM recently took me to one side and showed me some stuff in the
Corporate Security book. He mainly wanted my opinion on the nets and
stuff designed to trap astral travellers...

Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
cannot travel through live things. Thus a net coated in that bacteria
stuff would, in theory, rest upon an astral traveller... but an
astral traveller has no mass. So, would the net go through the astral
object? Would this leave the bacteria on the object?

Like I said, I'm a sad mundane.... what is the general opinion on
these items?

Cheers

Jill
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Dallandra@******.net
Website http://come.to/Dallandra
Message no. 2
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:33:26 -0500
Quoting Jill (bz701@*********.AC.UK):
> Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
> since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
> work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
> cannot travel through live things. Thus a net coated in that bacteria
> stuff would, in theory, rest upon an astral traveller... but an
> astral traveller has no mass. So, would the net go through the astral
> object? Would this leave the bacteria on the object?

They addressed this sticky wicket in SR3 by changing the rules
to allow astral forms to pass through living things, as long as the
living thing isn't astrally active (dual-natured, astrally perceiving, or
astrally projecting).
So, in SR3, the netting doesn't work at all.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 3
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:09:46 -0500
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Jill wrote:

->MY GM recently took me to one side and showed me some stuff in the
->Corporate Security book. He mainly wanted my opinion on the nets and
->stuff designed to trap astral travellers...
->
->Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
->since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
->work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
->cannot travel through live things. Thus a net coated in that bacteria
->stuff would, in theory, rest upon an astral traveller... but an
->astral traveller has no mass. So, would the net go through the astral
->object? Would this leave the bacteria on the object?
->
->Like I said, I'm a sad mundane.... what is the general opinion on
->these items?

I think you just hit one of the biggest controversies in
Shadowrun. The others (grounding through quickenings, etc.) are hopeless
in attempting to solve, which is why SR3 is attempting to move beyond them
by not making them an issue.
IFF (for those familiar enough in math) FAT bacteria make it to
SR3, they will either have to be dual natured (and, hence, attackable from
the astral) or have no effect on anything astrally projecting (except that
FAT type that made astral objects visible. That type should still be able
to function as mundanes can 'sense' when an astral being goes through
them, and the bacteria could 'glow' when they sense that and hence make
the shape of the astral mage..... )

->Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!

Yeeesh... makes me glad I've never traveled there. }:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 4
From: Tommy Lindner <tommy.lindner@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:03:10 +0100
Sean McCrohan schrieb:

> The net gun was particularly confusing, since the book seems to be fairly
> ambiguous about whether it would work or not.



> They addressed this sticky wicket in SR3 by changing the rules
> to allow astral forms to pass through living things, as long as the
> living thing isn't astrally active (dual-natured, astrally perceiving, or
> astrally projecting).
> So, in SR3, the netting doesn't work at all.
> --Sean

As I remeber it didn't work under the rules of Corporate Security as well.
Somewhere later on it was written, I guess in the discription part, sorry I don't
have my volume at hand, that it was only one corporate thing to threaten Runner
Mages.

Tommy
Message no. 5
From: John Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:07:03 -0500
Jill wrote

> Like I said, I'm a sad mundane.... what is the general opinion on
> these items?

Wow. I remember when this thread came up the first time. Now, *that* was
a flame war to keep you warm at night:)
General opinion was that nobody agreed whether it would work, or even
what the consequences might be if it did. So they asked Mike Mulvihill
and I'm pretty sure that somebody (Granite, perhaps?) has a copy or
three of the message. Barring that, it should be findable without great
deals of trouble in the list archives -- look for a thread from about
2(?) years ago concerning FAB.
Good luck!

--
John Pederson, otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oooooh! Big talk from Mr. Got-All-My-Limbs! 'Look at me! I've got arms
and legs! JERK!" --Sluggy Freelance
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864/index.html ICQ UIN: 3190186
pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com
----------------------
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" No. 2 -- with a
bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:38:46 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Jill wrote:
/
/ MY GM recently took me to one side and showed me some stuff in the
/ Corporate Security book. He mainly wanted my opinion on the nets and
/ stuff designed to trap astral travellers...
/
/ Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
/ since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
/ work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
/ cannot travel through live things. Thus a net coated in that bacteria
/ stuff would, in theory, rest upon an astral traveller... but an
/ astral traveller has no mass. So, would the net go through the astral
/ object? Would this leave the bacteria on the object?
/
/ Like I said, I'm a sad mundane.... what is the general opinion on
/ these items?

You've stumbled onto a question that spawned one of the greatest
debates in ShadowRN history. And, I'm sorry to say, no general
consensus was reached.

Read the description and the comments in the sidebar and do whatever
works best for your group :)

BTW, per the BBB3 FAB no longer has any affect on astral forms. In
order to affect the astral you have to exist on the astral.

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:19:41 EST
>MY GM recently took me to one side and showed me some stuff in the
>Corporate Security book. He mainly wanted my opinion on the nets and
>stuff designed to trap astral travellers...
>
>Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
>since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
>work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
>cannot travel through live things. Thus a net coated in that bacteria
>stuff would, in theory, rest upon an astral traveller... but an
>astral traveller has no mass. So, would the net go through the astral
>object? Would this leave the bacteria on the object?
>
>Like I said, I'm a sad mundane.... what is the general opinion on
>these items?
>
>Cheers
>
>Jill

This all depends on whether you are useing sr2 or 3 rules. In sr3 the
net gun does not work because astral beings can go through living things
in SR3. In sr2 it works. Since the bacteria are physically present in
the net and are contained with in, they stay in the net.


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| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
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""^^
Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:42:46 -0600
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:32 AM

>They addressed this sticky wicket in SR3 by changing the rules to
>allow astral forms to pass through living things, as long as the
>living thing isn't astrally active (dual-natured, astrally perceiving,
>or astrally projecting).
>
>So, in SR3, the netting doesn't work at all.

Er, Sean...as I understand it (CorpSec hasn't made it's way here from
Missouri yet), Fat Airborne Bacteria *are* astrally present. A net
impregnated with FAB, fired at an astral mage, would fall to the floor in
the material world, but the astral image of it would entangle the mage's
astral form (if I'm reading everything correctly; no guarantee there). If I
understand the SR3 rewrite thoroughly (and there's no guarantee that I do),
it would still cause the astral magician a lot of hassles, but it wouldn't
be the escape-proof trap it might have been under SR2.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 9
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:06:28 -0500
Quoting Patrick Goodman (remo@***.NET):
> Er, Sean...as I understand it (CorpSec hasn't made it's way here from
> Missouri yet), Fat Airborne Bacteria *are* astrally present. A net
> impregnated with FAB, fired at an astral mage, would fall to the floor in
> the material world, but the astral image of it would entangle the mage's
> astral form (if I'm reading everything correctly; no guarantee there). If I
> understand the SR3 rewrite thoroughly (and there's no guarantee that I do),
> it would still cause the astral magician a lot of hassles, but it wouldn't
> be the escape-proof trap it might have been under SR2.


My understanding of the FAB were that they weren't dual-natured, but
simply had very strong auras for something their size. Under SR2, that was
enough, because all living things had auras, and those auras were considered
astral obstructions. Living things STILL have auras under SR3, and the FAB
would probably provide a barrier to visibility, but since SR3 gives auras
no actual SOLIDITY, they wouldn't hinder movement.
This goes back to the Awakened Kudzu topic. In SR2, an ivy-covered
wall obstructed astral movement. In SR3, it blocks vision, but you can
move through it. If the ivy (or kudzu) were dual-natured, however, and
thus truly present ON the astral (as opposed to just visible from it),
you wouldn't be able to move through it.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:08:51 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Patrick Goodman wrote:
/
/ Er, Sean...as I understand it (CorpSec hasn't made it's way here from
/ Missouri yet), Fat Airborne Bacteria *are* astrally present. A net
/ impregnated with FAB, fired at an astral mage, would fall to the floor in
/ the material world, but the astral image of it would entangle the mage's
/ astral form (if I'm reading everything correctly; no guarantee there). If I
/ understand the SR3 rewrite thoroughly (and there's no guarantee that I do),
/ it would still cause the astral magician a lot of hassles, but it wouldn't
/ be the escape-proof trap it might have been under SR2.

Okay, I remember reading that bit about the astral form seperating from
the physical form, but I can't find it. Where is it?

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:21:40 -0600
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 12:07 PM

>/ A net
>/ impregnated with FAB, fired at an astral mage, would fall to the floor in
>/ the material world, but the astral image of it would entangle the mage's
>/ astral form (if I'm reading everything correctly; no guarantee there).
>
>Okay, I remember reading that bit about the astral form seperating from
>the physical form, but I can't find it. Where is it?

There appears to be at least a small chance that I just made it up, David,
but I seem to recall something about it in the Strain III entry in THREATS.
ICOCBW.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 12
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 01:30:21 +0100
And so it came to happen that Sean McCrohan wrote in reply to Jill:
>
> Quoting Jill (bz701@*********.AC.UK):
> > Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
> > since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
> > work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
> > cannot travel through live things. Thus a net coated in that bacteria
> > stuff would, in theory, rest upon an astral traveller... but an
> > astral traveller has no mass. So, would the net go through the astral
> > object? Would this leave the bacteria on the object?
>
> They addressed this sticky wicket in SR3 by changing the rules
> to allow astral forms to pass through living things, as long as the
> living thing isn't astrally active (dual-natured, astrally perceiving, or
> astrally projecting).
> So, in SR3, the netting doesn't work at all.

Hm, What with the stuff presented in Target: UCAS? Wouldn't that fit
into that in beeing astrally present? I do not have the Book, so I
can't look it up.
--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:54:54 +0100
According to Jill, at 12:29 on 26 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Well now I'm asking yours. The net gun was particularly confusing,
> since the book seems to be fairly ambiguous about whether it would
> work or not. Now, I'm a sad mundane, but I know that astral bodies
> cannot travel through live things.

They can't in SR1 and SRII; in SR3, though, that particular rule has been
removed. Still, since you state they can't, you're apparently not using
SR3 so I'll disregard the new rules.

> Thus a net coated in that bacteria stuff would, in theory, rest upon an
> astral traveller... but an astral traveller has no mass. So, would the
> net go through the astral object? Would this leave the bacteria on the
> object?
>
> Like I said, I'm a sad mundane.... what is the general opinion on
> these items?

This is a question where the SRII magic system breaks down, really. On the
one hand, an astral magician cannot exert a force on a non-astral object
(living or dead). OTOH, though, the reverse is possible. The big problem
becomes, as you state, would the net go through the astral traveller, or
would the traveller hold up the net, if the net were dropped on top of the
astral magician?

We had a huge debate on the list over this last year or so, which
eventually ended up asking Mike Mulvihill about it, and even he severely
contradicted himself -- first he said "yes," then later he said "no"
after
he'd had time to reconsider... He did send replies to the person who asked
him, and those were then posted to the list, which I unfortunately can't
find 1, 2, 3 anymore :/

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [SR] A confused question...
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:54:54 +0100
According to Patrick Goodman, at 10:42 on 26 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> Er, Sean...as I understand it (CorpSec hasn't made it's way here from
> Missouri yet), Fat Airborne Bacteria *are* astrally present.

The thing about FAB is that they are NOT astrally present, but _are_ large
enough to affect astral magicians. Asral FAB would be pointless, because
the magician could just zap them with an area-effect spell from the astral
plane, killing the bacteria and endangering anyone nearby on the physical
plane. This would make them a big security hazard rather than an asset;
FAB was useful in SRII because it _couldn't_ be affected from the astral,
yet it could trap astral travelers.

The net, though, was taking it too far and into areas causing too much
confusion and flames.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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