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Message no. 1
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 15:56:37 +0100
I was reading some news over at rec.games.frp.advocacy
and was reading something about ad&d (please forgive me for
mentioning the xx&x word) making munchkins out of its players
and how its stupid hit point systems forces DM's to import
even bigger and nastier 'monsters' with more and more hit points.

At that point I could'nt help but think about Shadowrun
forgive my heretical thoughts, but isnt that what happens in
SR too, or is it just my group of players that are so darn
good at killing ? I mean lets face it a street sam using
just standard stuff from SRII and make even some legal stuff
from ShadowTech can reach initiative values of 10-15+4d6!!!!!!
What on earth can rival that? This deadly speed combined with
some good weapons that practically kill instantly no matter how
much armor the target is wearing.
The only way to challenge the sammies is to either use other
cybergrunts (wich I personally despise, because lets face it
how many people have a million to spare for cyber!!!!!!),
ambush them(I am sick and tired of using that one) or heap
GUNS and super armor on them NPC's (I refuse to do that).

Not to mention the mages. The few times where I managed to
make things a bit tough for the grunts the parties mage
waltzes it and manaballs the bad guys to hell!!!!!!!
I mean you cant excpet that every other punker has a
willpower of 6 can you, but anything less means that
he is nothing but cannon fodder in the hands of a
competent mage. Even the ones that do have such
enormous willpower stats can pose only a minor threat
with no karma to reroll and with only 6 dice(+ any threat)
as opposed to the mages min12!!!!

Oh well, what do you all think about this ?
--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l+ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 2
From: Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 16:44:52 +0200
This is one of this sad moments for a GM: realizing he can give no new challengeto his
players unless he uses some really nasty tricks, like ambushes, bad mages
with initiongrades 10+, hordes of cybered killing machines and nuclear weapons.
I experienced this with one of me groups in the past, too. I thought very hard
to solve this problem and had some ideas, that most of you won't like, I am sh... sorry,
sure, but it worked great.

A. At first we made up an new team. I posted the following conditions: Either
you take an archetype character or one of mine, which I had pregenerated.
Because the charactere creation rules in SR allows the players a lot, they
always tended to abuse the system. You know what I mean:"Gosh, 1M=Y=, what
can I buy with this now to make my character DEADLY.". And therefore a lot
of characteres are created with one single emphasise: good combat abilities.
But noone thinks about background, attitudes etc.. I don't won't to worship
myself, but the Characters I created for my players were well.. balanced,
this means had good background stories, goals for their life, atitudes,etc.
and were not only constructed for the reason of combat. And believe it or not,
my players accepted this rules. So Point A is making Characters 'weaker'.

B. Then of course I had to rethink about the campaigne and adventures I had
for my players. No more full scale war against some corp, no more hordes
of up-to-the-limit cybered opponents, etc. Now the players suddenly had to
deal with the local gangs in a different way than pulling the trigger and
erasing the whole gang. I guess, you see the consequences. This doesn't mean
they don
they don't create mayhem anymore, oh no, last week they were involved in
killing of 14 people, when a Guy from Italy was on Vendetta against the Mafia
in Redmond. But they got pretty wounded.

C. Last point to mention: Those characters have enough space (on their record
sheet) to improve themselves, kind of buying better cyber, raising skill
levels, etc.

Okay, enough, that is MHO, open for discussion
Thanx for your precious time, St.Willkofer.

P.S.: Any comments on ShadowLore? Like to hear other peoples oppinnion.
Message no. 3
From: Lars M Ericson <lericson@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:22:39 CDT
I'v almost had the opposite situation in my current campaign. I
undrestand your frustration, it is a similar one I had when I first
started running Shadowrun. When I went to college I made a
concentrated effort towards a) making the equipment availability more
realistic and b) providing much more challenging situations.

There have been one tenth the amount of combat situations in my
current group than there were in the previous group. First off, my
last group new the combat system and were generally 75% ROTC members
or military fanatics. No surprise that violence was one of the first
reactions. But now, I make sure that the players realize that they
are SHADOWrunners and that if they try and duke it out with everyone
the meet then the victim's corp or gang is going to make life hell. A
second factor that has led to a more balanced game in my opinion, is
the fact that only two players out of fifteen (myself and another GM
shuffle characters so that there is only 6-8 in each session) have
ever played Shadowrun before this campaign. This means that I was
able to present the Shadowrun world the way I wanted to, and not the
way that other GMs or the rules allow for.


The solution? Well, I don't know anything that is guaranteed to work.
You might want to try starting over completely and offering a new
world where a Colt Manhunter is a weapon to be feared and Lone Star
knows how to use its Mossberg CMDT shotguns.


Hope this helps and isn't just wasted bandwith.


--
Lars M Ericson: Professional Vagabond <lericson@***.edu>
aka Maxwell Von Talos, 7th Generation Tremere
Team Garotte, Founding Member
Registered Member of a Decadent Society

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that
one spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.

QUOTE OF THE WEEK:
[AN EMPTY VOID..............................]
--
Message no. 4
From: DJ Wipeout <wipeout@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 11:30:41 +0100
On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, Darth Vader wrote:

> I was reading some news over at rec.games.frp.advocacy
> and was reading something about ad&d (please forgive me for
> mentioning the xx&x word) making munchkins out of its players
> and how its stupid hit point systems forces DM's to import
> even bigger and nastier 'monsters' with more and more hit points.
>
> [potential munchkinism of SR deleted]

Sorry, but from what I understand of Rifts, Rifts blows everyone else out
of the water with this whole Megadamage theory. If I got this right:

1MD = 100 regular damage points.

a tank has like 600 regular damage points, for example.

They have hand blasters that will do 1-10MD(!!!!) so you shoot a tank
with a lil' blaster and obliterate it. THAT'S munchkinism.

wipeout@***.com: Co-Maintainer, The DataHaven Project.
Message no. 5
From: What's this button do? <GRAFF85@********.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 11:33:40 -0400
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Message no. 6
From: "Seth A. Buntain" <enthar@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 11:06:03 -0500
[munchity munch munch munch]
> Oh well, what do you all think about this ?

Well, 'munckin' characters are sometimes hard to deal with, especially if you
dont catch them early. What I suspect has happened is a fairly normal
progression of experience to bring already competent shadowrunners into higher
levels. Ways to keep challenging them? Well... Now that they are so good at
combat, change the focus of the game away from that. Alot of people say that
if you have to draw your gun, the run is screwed, enforce that. Sure, you can
make a Fast Response Team, with hyper, Kamikaze, security armor, and a mage w/
a few elementals, as an intial punishment, but also add in:
1) Their fixer wont talk to them cause they are too 'hot' right now.
2) Neither will most Johnsons.
3) Continual harrasment by Corprate forces, so that they never get the
chance to refresh their Karma pool. Eventually, its going to catch
up with them.
4) Have the Corp they burned hire another Shadow team to take them
out, see how they like it :)

Then, if they still dont get it, explain that alot of rewards can be had
through sneakiness and role playing as opposed to combat and roll playing.
Then watch as they turn that Munchkinous energy towards being the most sneaky,
and in character, all to get the rewards that you should be offering (higher
Karma, increased cash and less consequences)

Hope this helps :)

--
Seth Buntain | "You will find that a great many of the truths
Enthar the Eternal | that we cling to depend greatly on our own point
email: enthar@***.edu | of view" --Obi Wan Kenobi
(V 1.01) GE d -p+ c++ l u e+(*) m(++) s/- !n h- f+ g- w+ t+(++) r+(++) !y
"It's a damn poor man who can't spell a wyrd in more than one way!"
-Thomas Jefferson
My opinions, comments and even facts are all mine.
Message no. 7
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 11:48:05 -0500
>The only way to challenge the sammies is to either use other
>cybergrunts (wich I personally despise, because lets face it
>how many people have a million to spare for cyber!!!!!!),
>ambush them(I am sick and tired of using that one) or heap
>GUNS and super armor on them NPC's (I refuse to do that).

In general, St. Sammies (Saint Samuel? Hmmm...) are killing machines, or at
least are often built that way. It's kind of expected that they're good at
what they do. Unfortunately, many times, that's all they do- combat. Very
little of anything else. The most ineffective party I even ran through a meat
grinder had 3 Razors and a mage. Everyone was built around combat, even the
mage. All combat spells, excpet for the obligatory Combat Sense and Increase
Reflexes +3, spell locked of course. The party chewed up everything in it's
path, including an NPC who had information vital to the run. Very little by
way of contacts, either, and only a couple of them bothered with Etiquette.
Combat, while an important part of SR, isn't the whole of SR, which is why I
generally don't mind having combat-heavy groups. A group that isn't well
rounded won't last long.

>Not to mention the mages. The few times where I managed to
>make things a bit tough for the grunts the parties mage
>waltzes it and manaballs the bad guys to hell!!!!!!!

That depends on the opposition. Common street gang-types are highly unlikely
to have a mage. That's life in the 6th world. Magic is hard to counter
mundanely, and if you don't have a mage during a magical attack, pull out-
fast.

Matt
Message no. 8
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin players
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 12:45:18 -0600
Date: 26 Apr 1994 15:56:37 +0100
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>

I thought this might help...

> just standard stuff from SRII and make even some legal stuff
> from ShadowTech can reach initiative values of 10-15+4d6!!!!!!
> What on earth can rival that?
> The only way to challenge the sammies is to either use other
> cybergrunts (wich I personally despise, because lets face it
> how many people have a million to spare for cyber!!!!!!),
> ambush them(I am sick and tired of using that one) or heap
> GUNS and super armor on them NPC's (I refuse to do that).


1) Make your NPC's using the same rules for character generation
that your PC's use--or significantly boost the listed
archetypes/contacts power levels.

2) MegaCorps have the 1M=Y= to spend on cyber. In fact, with as
much trouble as they have been having with runners , it
becomes cost effective to have cybered guards (1 or 2 squads)
securing the premises.


> Not to mention the mages. The few times where I managed to
> make things a bit tough for the grunts the parties mage
> waltzes it and manaballs the bad guys to hell!!!!!!!
> I mean you cant excpet that every other punker has a
> willpower of 6 can you, but anything less means that
> he is nothing but cannon fodder in the hands of a
> competent mage. Even the ones that do have such
> enormous willpower stats can pose only a minor threat
> with no karma to reroll and with only 6 dice(+ any threat)
> as opposed to the mages min12!!!!


3)Keep your mages busy with elementals, spirits and spell
attacks. They don't usually get as many init phases as
a PhysAd or SSam, so they can't react as fast to new
threats.

4)If you are allowing the mages to use Combat Sense, Clairvoyance
Incr. Reaction on spell locks to boost their init., you
might consider limiting the number of active spell locks to
1+1/initiate level. We had problems with mages having too many
active spell locks, and destroying the balance of the game.

5)Use the Background Count optional rules in Grimoire to mess
up the astral-- it will make anyone your mage faces more
powerful by incr. the T#'s.

6)Mages have lower reactions and d6 for init. than a cyber
char. They shouldn't be reacting as fast to combat as your
NPC bad guys.

6)Magic is deadly. Welcome to the sixth world, chummer :)


The only other advice I can offer is to maintain game balance:
Make the characters provide you with backgrounds for their
characters detailing how they got to be so bad ass to start with.
This gives them motivation for their character and reasons as to
why they are running the shadows instead of being a corporator.
It also allows you to determine if there is a person or group that
is going to go out of their way to make life fraggin' nasty for
the PC. If that person is highly enough placed, or can scam
someone who is, your PC is in lots o' trouble.

Remember 2 things-
1) The rules on legality are there for a reason. (seattle sourcebk.
shadowtech)

2) Security forces of any type will call for backup before the
drek hits the fan 5/6 times. And if you are giving them grief,
they will swarm you.

Hope this helps--good luck..

...Bryan Prince...
...no neat .sig yet....
Message no. 9
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin Players ???
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 15:00:09 -0500
On Tue, 26 Apr 1994, DJ Wipeout wrote:

> Sorry, but from what I understand of Rifts, Rifts blows everyone else out
> of the water with this whole Megadamage theory. If I got this right:
>
> 1MD = 100 regular damage points.
>
> a tank has like 600 regular damage points, for example.
>
> They have hand blasters that will do 1-10MD(!!!!) so you shoot a tank
> with a lil' blaster and obliterate it. THAT'S munchkinism.

Rifts is a game that can easily be abused, largely because of the
hundreds of character classes that have nothing in common. There is no
common limit as for SR because you can play creatures like dragons.

As for the tank/blaster issue: Rifts takes place in the year 2389. If you
are driving your 20th century tank around, you should be able to be blown
to pieces in almost any system. A tank manufactured in the 24th century
will have hundreds of mega-damge points.

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 10
From: What's this button do? <GRAFF85@********.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin players
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 16:19:47 -0400
> 2) MegaCorps have the 1M=Y= to spend on cyber. In fact, with as
> much trouble as they have been having with runners , it
> becomes cost effective to have cybered guards (1 or 2 squads)
> securing the premises.

hehe who here read night's pawn? anyone ever figure out what church had in
him? looked to be some seriously advanced stuff...

--Phlatline
----v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^---v^-
David Graff | GEEK CODE v1.0.1
339 Randall Hall | GCS d+(---) p(-p+) c+(+++) l u- e* m---(*) s !n(n---)
Cortland, Ny 13045| h* f+(--) g++ w+++ t++(---) r(++) y+
607.753.2783 |
--------------------------------------------------------Phlatline-------------
Message no. 11
From: jacob hawkins <HAWKINSJ@********.WA.COM>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin players
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 19:24:17 +0200
Always be trying to think deadlier than your players.

A player in one of my campaigns had an ultra-cybered orc (munchkin)
with an essence of...oh...about .35 or something like that. He was
far too death for his own good.

So I created a scenario in which the party had to face essence
draining creatures.

Slightly before the encounter, he had to leave so he left his
character with one of the other players. The last words out of his
mouth before he left were "Don't let my character die." I almost
felt bad but had to stifle a laugh...He hasn't played a munchkin
since.
/---/
\---\ _ _ _
\---/NaKeBait-/ \_/ \_/ \-<
Message no. 12
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SR and Munchkin players
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:26:51 +0100
The problem, Monsieur Hawkins, with trying to stay one step dealier than
your players is that it can quickly degenerate into a GM versus players
kinda campaign if you're not careful, especially with fragile egos that most
munchkin players have.

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

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