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Message no. 1
From: JLantrip@******.COM JLantrip@******.COM
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:04:27 -0600
>One question that popped into my head was
>whether or not the Christian churches in
>2060 had recognized the re-emerging old
>religions (Celtic, Norse, Greek, and their
>ilk) as valid and not a tool of Satan.

I'd like to think that the Church would adapt pretty easily...but it'd be
up to the GM to decide (I don't see FASA taking a stand on *this* topic any
time soon....although, they did just add rules for priests as
mages....hmm...). You could swing either way, depending on the world you
want to create.

There will always be people who think that Judgement Day is upon them and
that demons walk the earth in the guise of "shamanic totems"(hmm...well,
the dead are walking the earth...hey...). Then again, there are going to be
(hopefully, more of these than any other) those who recognize that there
are other religions and are tolerant of them.

In any world I GM, the Church would be tolerant of all the other religions,
and religious extremist groups would be far and few between (and walking
hand in hand with some of the policlubs...)

-J
Message no. 2
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:45:17 -0400
> >One question that popped into my head was
> >whether or not the Christian churches in
> >2060 had recognized the re-emerging old
> >religions (Celtic, Norse, Greek, and their
> >ilk) as valid and not a tool of Satan.

This has never been mentioned. This is not the standard MO of the Roman
Catholic Church, or most other Christian Churches, as far as I can figure. I
don't think any of them _actively_ campaign to denounces these "pagan"
faiths as the "tool of Satan", but I don't think you'll see them go out of
their way to legitimize them either.

One of the big changes in the Catholic Church in SR times is their
acceptance of magic as a tool, not as something inherently good or evil.
This goes against 2000 years of dogma, and IMO, implies some radical changes
in the Catholic Church. (So much so, that I've been pondering a Target:
Vatican net.book for quite a while.)

Can anyone give me their impressions of what Vatican City would be like in
2060?

> In any world I GM, the Church would be tolerant of all the other
> religions,
> and religious extremist groups would be far and few between (and walking
> hand in hand with some of the policlubs...)

Pity we don't actually live in a world like that.

Wordman
Message no. 3
From: JLantrip@******.COM JLantrip@******.COM
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:53:04 -0600
>Pity we don't actually live in a world like that.

Actually, that's my failure as a GM. I'm too lazy to want to deal with
things like that. I try and avoid getting the PCs involved in religion.

Besides, look at it from another perspective. Hermetic and shamanic magic
and fairly common. Old religions have resurfaced and shown that they still
have power. Most people's lives are controlled by the corporations
anyway...where does religion fit in? The Church is no longer the power it
once was and may have lost a huge chunk of its following. There's two
options that they could take: be tolerant, or be extremist. I happened to
go with "be tolerant". For right now, there's plenty of plots around for me
to use without involving the Vatican or other branches of Catholicism.

Strangely enough, I'd say that Judaism would probably fare the Awakening
better than Christianity.
Message no. 4
From: Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
--- JLantrip@******.COM wrote:
> In any world I GM, the Church would be tolerant of
> all the other religions,
> and religious extremist groups would be far and few
> between (and walking
> hand in hand with some of the policlubs...)
>
> -J

Having been raised Catholic and therefore, having a
little insight into the church's views, when I GM a
church, they are pretty intolerant of anything
"different". A lot of churches I've seen hold the
view that "If you don't believe what we believe, then
you are going to hell." As always, YMMV.

Grey

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Message no. 5
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:58:15 EDT
In a message dated 7/13/00 11:46:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> Can anyone give me their impressions of what Vatican City would be like in
> 2060?

OK, my views...Of both the Vatican as a sovereign nation, and of the
Vatican as meaning the Church.

Political/Temporal:

1. Italy may have broken up, but I seriously doubt the Church is going to
try and grab anything more than the city of Rome (to protect themselves), if
even that. There's a BIG wall surrounding Vatican City for real-life
defensive reasons, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that now being manned by
Swiss Guards armed with M16s, a couple of mages, and SAMs for good measure.
Armor is unlikely, but the popemobile (God, I'd love stats on that thing.:-))
is probably going to be replaced by an APC with an armored see-through turret
(specially designed so ya can't use spells through it) for His Holiness in
REALLY dangerous situations. John Paul II has had HOW many assassination
attempts? Oh, BTW...expect the Vatican to set up a special ops unit, and talk
to countries like the UCAS and CAS about working together against the Azzies.
New Jesuits? Maybe, but I see them as mainly deckers and physads, with a good
magical and psychological warfare complement, too.

2. The Church being the Church, once they get a handle on how things work
(like magic), they tend to pump a lot into excelling at it...from philosophy
to magic, I sense the Church's universities are going to have some kickass
profs, especially in magical arts and the like, assisted by the good priests
of the Order of St. Sylvester.

3. Doesn't mean they won't liberalize though. John Paul II has seen that
a lot; Whilst he's dogmatic as HELL (One of the more mainline priests I once
knew told me suicidal depression was a sin on the order of adultery...Grr.
Bad experience with the Church lately, especially relating to their views on
mental illness), he's helped sweep the REALLY conservative forces from the
Vatican. In general, after 'In Imago Dei'....there'll be a lot of mistrust,
but I see the Vatican making many moves to rebuild that trust. By 50 years, I
can see a decent amount of metahuman Bishops...maybe even a few Archbishops,
and possibly the lone meta Cardinal. (We have consideration of an African
Pope for the first time EVER right now, so...)

Theological/Religious:

1.There's one thing to say about the Church. Once they progress, there's
no turning back. After Imago Dei, I sense there won't be much metahuman
discrimination....

2. I suppose by 2060 the Church would have realized that,
y'know...Ideological purity ain't everything. Expect SOME tolerated dissent.

Open issues I got no clue on:

1. Latin: Used again? Used at ALL?

2. Reunification with the Orthodox churches?

3. Mental illness: Maybe it was just the priest I talked to, but...the
Church doesn't seem to have that healthy of an image of mental illness,
especially stuff like depression and suicide. Is that likely to change?

John
Message no. 6
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:26:44 -0400
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 12:58 PM

> Open issues I got no clue on:
>
> 1. Latin: Used again? Used at ALL?

Currently, the Vatican is the store of the largest known library of
metaphysical / magical / thaumaturgical knowledge. I'd imagine, with the
acceptance of Magic, that a significant amount of these books would be
released to their Special Magical Orders, such as St. Sylvester and the New
Jesuits. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the members of said orders, in
2060, would be required to learn Latin.

>
> 2. Reunification with the Orthodox churches?

Doubtful. Goblinization and magic does not change the ideologically
differences between the churches.

>
> 3. Mental illness: Maybe it was just the priest I talked to, but...the
> Church doesn't seem to have that healthy of an image of mental illness,
> especially stuff like depression and suicide. Is that likely to change?
>

Well, according to the Bible, your body is a temple, from which you offer
pray, and worship. It could be seen that mental illness is an imperfection
in said temple, but that gets into the deeper theological debate, which is
definitely un-SR like.

> John
>
>

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 7
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:49:14 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, July 14, 2000 1:45 AM
Subject: RE: SR and the Church


>Can anyone give me their impressions of what Vatican City would be like in
>2060?
>
You mean with all the mana of millions of worshippers all centering on one
city and one man? Other holy cities would also be interesting for this, like
Mecca (probably even more so), but what I really want to see is what is
going on in Tibet.
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:40:18 -0500
From: Wordman
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 10:45 AM

> One of the big changes in the Catholic Church in SR times is their
> acceptance of magic as a tool, not as something inherently good or
> evil. This goes against 2000 years of dogma, and IMO, implies some
> radical changes in the Catholic Church. (So much so, that I've been
> pondering a Target: Vatican net.book for quite a while.)

Another thing that came up here the last time this argument got started was
how quickly the Catholic Church accepted metahumanity. "In Imago Dei" came
out really damn quickly, more quickly than perhaps it would have had there
not been some significant happenings within the Vatican walls. The Church
of Rome is not known for the speed with which it handles change (and they've
been around long enough where they can deal in terms of the long view).

Now, what those happenings might have been has been left solely to personal
conjecture.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 9
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:43:05 EDT
In a message dated 7/14/00 10:40:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> Now, what those happenings might have been has been left solely to personal
> conjecture.

Yes, I REALLY want a Vatican SB sometime soon.
Message no. 10
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:47:16 -0700 (PDT)
<snip>The Church
> of Rome is not known for the speed with which it
> handles change (and they've
> been around long enough where they can deal in terms
> of the long view).
<snip>

The church of England too... On sunday the minister
told us that it takes at least 9 years for anything to
pass. At the 1st convention you propose an idea (only
happens once every 3 years), at the 2nd (3 years
later) you have to propose it again, at the 3rd (yet
another 3 years later) they vote on it, at the 4th
(finally, another 3 years later) they put it into practice.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 11
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:25:54 EDT
Dear Wordman,

I have been to the Vatican. It is gaurded to the teeth. The Vatican gaurd is a bunch of
serious hard a--es. If you try to go near the restricted areas they are on it quick. I
think that they would have the bleeding edge of technology in SR. Hey they have to gaurd
the guy that speaks directly to God and gets answers daily. Do the math.

Tinne
Message no. 12
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:24:36 EDT
Dear Wordman,

I have been to the Vatican. It is gaurded to the teeth. The Vatican gaurd is a bunch of
serious hard a--es. If you try to go near the restricted areas they are on it quick. I
think that they would have the bleeding edge of technology in SR. Hey they have to gaurd
the guy that speaks directly to God and gets answers daily. Do the math.

Tinne
Message no. 13
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:37:53 EDT
Dear Kawaii,

{snip}
In a message dated Thu, 13 Jul 2000 1:27:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "kawaii"
<trunks@********.org> writes:

<< From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 12:58 PM

> Open issues I got no clue on:
>
> 1. Latin: Used again? Used at ALL?

Currently, the Vatican is the store of the largest known library of
metaphysical / magical / thaumaturgical knowledge. I'd imagine, with the
acceptance of Magic, that a significant amount of these books would be
released to their Special Magical Orders, such as St. Sylvester and the New
Jesuits. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the members of said orders, in
2060, would be required to learn Latin.

>
> 2. Reunification with the Orthodox churches?

>[snip]

The church is already making inroads on that today... adlib from there.

Suggestion; answer the presented questions from the perspective of the man in the Shoes of
the Fisherman, ie. decide the personality and traditionality of the man who is presently
pope and go from there. Vatican disemenation of the faith vasselates widly dependant upon
who wears the white pointy hat.

Tinne
>



>>
Message no. 14
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:27:12 -0400
Tinne sayeth:
> Currently, the Vatican is the store of the largest known library of
> metaphysical / magical / thaumaturgical knowledge. I'd imagine, with the
> acceptance of Magic, that a significant amount of these books would be
> released to their Special Magical Orders, such as St. Sylvester
> and the New
> Jesuits. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the members of said orders, in
> 2060, would be required to learn Latin.

If someone wants a great run idea keep the above in mind and watch the movie
"Stigmata". While not the greatest movie I've ever seen it certainly was
interesting and if the basic content was used it would make for a very
dangerous run.

:)

Smilin' Jack

Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 15
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:30:27 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/00 10:38:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LDYTinne@***.com writes:

> > 1. Latin: Used again? Used at ALL?
>
> Currently, the Vatican is the store of the largest known library of
> metaphysical / magical / thaumaturgical knowledge. I'd imagine, with the
> acceptance of Magic, that a significant amount of these books would be
> released to their Special Magical Orders, such as St. Sylvester and the New
> Jesuits. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the members of said orders, in
> 2060, would be required to learn Latin.
>

I meant used in the Mass, sorry.
Message no. 16
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:31:36 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/00 10:38:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LDYTinne@***.com writes:

> The church is already making inroads on that today... adlib from there.
>
> Suggestion; answer the presented questions from the perspective of the man
> in the Shoes of the Fisherman, ie. decide the personality and
traditionality
> of the man who is presently pope and go from there. Vatican disemenation
of
> the faith vasselates widly dependant upon who wears the white pointy hat.
>
Which leads me to believe we've had some schizophrenic popes, really.:-)
Message no. 17
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:57:13 EDT
[snip]
In a message dated Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:30:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DemonPenta@***.com
writes:

<< In a message dated 7/16/00 10:38:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LDYTinne@***.com writes:

> > 1. Latin: Used again? Used at ALL?
>
> Currently, the Vatican is the store of the largest known library of
> metaphysical / magical / thaumaturgical knowledge. I'd imagine, with the
> acceptance of Magic, that a significant amount of these books would be
> released to their Special Magical Orders, such as St. Sylvester and the New
> Jesuits. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the members of said orders, in
> 2060, would be required to learn Latin.
>

I meant used in the Mass, sorry.

[snip]

The Roman Catholic Church still says mass in Latin in a number of places including
America. Some RC curches offer traditional latin masses. Belive you me that the Pope
says mass in Rome at the Basilica in Latin most of the time.

Something else that you all need to consider when you run something involving the Papacy,
the Roman Catholic Church, and its' doctrines... The utter lack of, and continued
resistance to women in places of power in the church. Make sure to include this as a
point in your presentation of NPC's. Serious big wig priests and monseniors are the one
doing the lacky work, not lay women or even nuns.
If you plan to something with magical sites of power based upon the afore (list) mentioned
focus of mass conciousness of faith... A well placed, or intentionally misplaced woman in
a especially holy shrine could seriously upset the proverbial blessing of the Almighty
Father (and subsiquestly the inate magical focus of the place). There are many individaul
sites with in the Vatican which are uniquily holy unto themselves. OR Misteps, if it
pleases the GM, may cause catastrophic mana spikes, weird auto spells going off, or what
ever Godly smiting holy/magic effects you care to toss. I suggest however, that the
effest relates heavily to the mistep made and the location it is made in. Ex. the shrine
where the left over portions of the body and blood of Christ in the main cathedral hall of
the Basilica is damaged in a fight... the left over transubstatiated wine/blood of Christ
if disturbed and spilled would... have all people in an X radius of this travesty have
their blood !
turn to wine. OR one of the stations of the cross is damaged irrevocably, ex. the crown
of thorns. result: damaging party begins to bleed and take damage as if crowned with
Christ's thorns ; this is a wound that will only be healed magically.

I hope my late night random thoughts were entertaining and helpful.

Brightest Blessings,
Tinne
>>
Message no. 18
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:30:40 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/00 11:57:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
LDYTinne@***.com writes:

> If you plan to something with magical sites of power based upon the afore (
> list) mentioned focus of mass conciousness of faith... A well placed, or
> intentionally misplaced woman in a especially holy shrine could seriously
> upset the proverbial blessing of the Almighty Father (and subsiquestly the
> inate magical focus of the place). There are many individaul sites with in
> the Vatican which are uniquily holy unto themselves. OR Misteps, if it
> pleases the GM, may cause catastrophic mana spikes, weird auto spells going
> off, or what ever Godly smiting holy/magic effects you care to toss. I
> suggest however, that the effest relates heavily to the mistep made and the
> location it is made in.

General rule: No fighting in the Vatican.:-)
Message no. 19
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:28:19 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <LDYTinne@***.com>
Subject: Re: SR and the Church


<SNIP!(TM)>
> I hope my late night random thoughts were entertaining and helpful.
>
> Brightest Blessings,
> Tinne

No, they have not been particularly entertaining and most definitely not
enlightening unless you are *REALLY* new to the concepts you have been
discussing. Gridsec made it fairly clear to drop the topic, and as a list
member I am requesting that you consider their statements and gestures up to
this point in time that have been made and do so.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Some)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 20
From: paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: SR and the Church
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:44:37 +1000
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque antiquam amoves?"
-Plautus, Miles Gloriosus "There are nights when the wolves
are silent and only the moon howls." -George Carlin

----- Original Message -----
From: NeoJudas <neojudas@******************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: SR and the Church


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <LDYTinne@***.com>
> Subject: Re: SR and the Church
>
>
> <SNIP!(TM)>
> > I hope my late night random thoughts were entertaining and helpful.
> >
> > Brightest Blessings,
> > Tinne
>
> No, they have not been particularly entertaining and most definitely not
> enlightening unless you are *REALLY* new to the concepts you have been
> discussing. Gridsec made it fairly clear to drop the topic, and as a list
> member I am requesting that you consider their statements and gestures up
to
> this point in time that have been made and do so.
>

Umm, I think the Vatican in 206x is a valid discussion point. It was the
relative merrits of Paganism vs wicca vs whatever ib the modern day that was
dropped.


Annachie

"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque antiquam amoves?"
-Plautus, Miles Gloriosus

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