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Message no. 1
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:52:47 -0600
Has anyone seen, heard, or have SR books in digital form (ya, in binary for
you headware chatters :)?
Before ya bite my head off about copyright laws and all, I'm not looking for
pirated books but would love to have all of the SR books in a pdf or html
format for quick searching. It would be nice if FASA would do this for us
and I would pay good money for it but I doubt that would be coming anytime
soon. I have a scanner and omnipage pro 8.0 and am thinking about
undertaking the project myself, anyone have any tip or tricks? I'm thinking
of buying extra copies of the books and taking them to a printshop to have
the spice cut off for easy scanning.

Peace,
Keldon Mor
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 2
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:14:37 -0600
:Has anyone seen, heard, or have SR books in digital form (ya, in binary
for
:you headware chatters :)?

They have not published books in digital form. FASA does WRITE them
on computers, however.

:Before ya bite my head off about copyright laws and all, I'm not looking
for
:pirated books but would love to have all of the SR books in a pdf or html
:format for quick searching. It would be nice if FASA would do this for us
:and I would pay good money for it but I doubt that would be coming
anytime
:soon. I have a scanner and omnipage pro 8.0 and am thinking about
:undertaking the project myself, anyone have any tip or tricks? I'm
thinking
:of buying extra copies of the books and taking them to a printshop to
have
:the spice cut off for easy scanning.

I suppose as a private use that might be legitmate, but I hardly see
how any of us could legally assist you in you efforts.

I haven't heard any plans from FASA to offer anything like that for
SR, despite their supposedly positive experience with the ED main rulebook
CD.

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:21:20 -0600
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:14:37 -0600 "Mongoose" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
>:I have a scanner and omnipage pro 8.0 and am thinking about
>:undertaking the project myself, anyone have any tip or tricks? I'm
thinking
>:of buying extra copies of the books and taking them to a printshop to
have
>:the spice cut off for easy scanning.
^^^^^
A new approach to adding flavor to SR? ;)

> I suppose as a private use that might be legitmate, but I hardly see
>how any of us could legally assist you in you efforts.

I talked to a lawyer friend of mine hypothetically about scanning
schoolbooks (if I ever got a scanner and a notebook PC), and, IIRC, he
said it was not legal (either that or that it was a grey area, I don't
remember which.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 4
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:48:50 +1100
>
>> I suppose as a private use that might be legitmate, but I hardly see
>>how any of us could legally assist you in you efforts.
>
>I talked to a lawyer friend of mine hypothetically about scanning
>schoolbooks (if I ever got a scanner and a notebook PC), and, IIRC, he
>said it was not legal (either that or that it was a grey area, I don't
>remember which.).

Reproducing *anything* without permission is a breach of copyright
(intellectual or otherwise).


Private use or not.

Yes, that means taping shows off TV is technically a breach of copyright.

Personally, I think a kind of SR Atlas would be the best bet for FASA to do
(I'd do it if I ran tyhe show, but I don't... .yet). It wouldn't include
actual information per se, which would encourage you to buy the sourcebooks
anyway - so they wouldn't loose much via piracy. But rather merely be a
huge index for all their sourcebooks. You wouldn't be able to search for
everything, but most things...

e.g.: the search query for a place could be "Bar, Tacoma"

and you'd get a page reference to the appropriate sourcebook and maybe even
the name of the bars, but nothing else.

as for rules, it'd merely point you were to find them [page numbers, maybe
even paragraphs]

of course the index need be heavily cross-referenced to be useful....

:-)

[ACtually, I wonder if such an index would be a breach of copyright?
Because it would be a worthy online project to do]

If they did do it, it'd be nice for them to include an electronic version
of the rulebook. I think everyone still prefers real books to electronic
books, and would merely use that in addition to their own copy of rulebook.
:) They should just PDF the whole lot.

take care,
s.

---
"Wait a sec," Case said. "Are you sentient, or not?"
"Well, if feels like I am, kid..."
- William Gibson, Neuromancer.

hi tech. no life.

egoshrine: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/8905/
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The Net is Not a TV: http://dangermedia.com/nntv/
---
Message no. 5
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:24:51 -0500
> Personally, I think a kind of SR Atlas would be the best bet for FASA to do
> (I'd do it if I ran tyhe show, but I don't... .yet). It wouldn't include
> actual information per se, which would encourage you to buy the sourcebooks
> anyway - so they wouldn't loose much via piracy. But rather merely be a
> huge index for all their sourcebooks. You wouldn't be able to search for
> everything, but most things...

This is what I have attempted to build with the Sixth World:
http://pobox.com/~wordman/sixthworld

Wordman
Message no. 6
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 02:24:36 EST
In a message dated 99-02-14 18:04:16 EST, you write:

> Because it would be a worthy online project to do]
>
> If they did do it, it'd be nice for them to include an electronic version
> of the rulebook. I think everyone still prefers real books to electronic
> books, and would merely use that in addition to their own copy of rulebook.
> :) They should just PDF the whole lot.
>
> take care,
> s.
>

Perhaps, but I would advocate for a much more usefull project... Either
reprinting the older source books or releasing them on PDF. In particular, I
am thinking of Shadowbeat, AKA the holy grail, due to its coverage of so many
things that runners really should know.


Oh great DLOH... are you listening to us poor chummers who could really use
that info?? Naa.. probobly not.
Message no. 7
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:38:43 +1000
<snip>

>Perhaps, but I would advocate for a much more usefull project... Either
>reprinting the older source books or releasing them on PDF. In particular,
I
>am thinking of Shadowbeat, AKA the holy grail, due to its coverage of so
many
>things that runners really should know.


I doubt Shadowrun sourcebooks will be publicly available over the internet
for a long time.

However, I *would* like to see a CD released, perhaps, with all the old
sourcebooks/adventures that are no longer available on it. Charge a decent
amount for it, even.

The trouble is, in any electronic format the books would be too easy to
copy. Photocopying 200+pages for a sourcebook or two isn't my idea of fun,
but run that CD burner for 20 minutes, or d/l from a website overnight, and
there you go. Neither option is likely to happen any time soon.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
can be counted" - Albert Einstein
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Roger Ramirez chariot@*********.net
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:08:35 -0500
>I doubt Shadowrun sourcebooks will be publicly available over the internet
>for a long time.
>

<SNIP>
>
>The trouble is, in any electronic format the books would be too easy to
>copy. Photocopying 200+pages for a sourcebook or two isn't my idea of fun,
>but run that CD burner for 20 minutes, or d/l from a website overnight, and
>there you go. Neither option is likely to happen any time soon.
>


But why should FASA give a devil rat's ass? They aren't making anything off
of those books now anyways? Personally I think they should release those
books for free online. Hey the code for Wolfenstein and Doom eventually
became public domain? Why can't the old, out-of-print books from Shadowrun
be the same?

-Chariot
Message no. 9
From: Slipspeed atreloar@*********.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:46:41 +1000
>But why should FASA give a devil rat's ass? They aren't making anything
off
>of those books now anyways? Personally I think they should release those
>books for free online. Hey the code for Wolfenstein and Doom eventually
>became public domain? Why can't the old, out-of-print books from Shadowrun
>be the same?


Ever hear of reprints? It's been known to happen. As for game code being
released, it's entirely different. A few points...

1) Nobody was buying anything related to those games anymore, and a future
product was planned in each case that made the old game obsolete. People
ARE still buying Shadowrun related products, so the old books might be
revitalised and rereleased. Shadowrun is not being made obsolete by future
products either. Shadowrun is running strong, and there's no reason nor
viable way to make it obsolete. Different editions don't count, as in
Doom's case with Doom 2. Same game engine, new levels and new plot and
slightly different weapons. The old sources are still a part of Shadowrun,
whether current or not.

2) The old sources are still potential money makers if FASA decides there's
enough demand to do another print run, which is always possible, albeit
unlikely. A few rules tweaks and away they go. Rereleasing Wolfenstein or
Doom however, to continue your example, would lose iD quite a bit of money
that was invested into the rerelease and advertising. Who wants to buy
Wolfenstein when there's Quake 2, Unreal and Half Life out there? Not very
many, I assure you.

3) FASA might have a very real fear that rereleasing some of their old work
for free would lead to pirated sources of non-free released material. Those
not experienced with Shadowrun product releases wouldn't know the
difference. "Here, a copy of UB, Shadowbeat and Corporate Shadowfiles, all
free. Oh, and a copy of Rigger 2, which is a "new addition" to the free
list *wink wink*"... Those of us that have kept track of Shadowrun would
know that Rigger two in the above example would definitely not be on such a
list, but would a new player? Perhaps not.

4) By releasing to the public some of the Shadowrun line for free, FASA
would be willingly giving up their right to make money from that product,
and setting a precedent. By releasing to the public Earthdawn, FASA has
effectively declared the product line dead, and renounced any intention to
make further profit from those products. A clever lawyer might argue
something away from them, and so FASA might not be willing to allow such a
possibility to develop, keeping a tight grip on their rights.

5) They are FASA's rights and FASA's products to do with what they wish.
They have every right to take them with them to the proverbial grave. :)

Sure, some of the above is unlikely or likely, varying on FASA policy which
I'm of course not privy to, but don't hold your breath waiting for free
material.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
can be counted" - Albert Einstein
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 05:46:58 -0700
At 07:08 2/15/99 -0500, Roger Ramirez wrote:

>>The trouble is, in any electronic format the books would be too easy to
>>copy. Photocopying 200+pages for a sourcebook or two isn't my idea of fun,
>>but run that CD burner for 20 minutes, or d/l from a website overnight, and
>>there you go. Neither option is likely to happen any time soon.
>
>But why should FASA give a devil rat's ass?

Well, the idea is that FASA would -sell- electronic versions of the books.
If they're selling something, piracy is a big turn off.

> They aren't making anything off
>of those books now anyways?

Not really. But if they start giving away something, they basically say "We
have no hope of making money on this product again", and in very few cases
will they ever be able to make money again. Suppose FASA releases a pile
of the old modules onto the web in PDF format, and then in 3 years decides
they should re-release some of the old modules in paper format, in some
sort of anthology. They've cut down their options because re-releasing the
modules they have released for free is not really an option, as there are
few people who will pay for something that they already have a copy of.

> Personally I think they should release those
>books for free online.

See above. Not to mention that they don't own everything that was
published, some of the artwork for example. Which means they have to spend
extra time and money either removing what they don't own or getting back in
touch with the artist/author and getting the rights to use it again.

> Hey the code for Wolfenstein and Doom eventually
>became public domain? Why can't the old, out-of-print books from Shadowrun
>be the same?

Because they aren't the same. The Wolfenstein and Doom source code is the
source code. It doesn't include the required files that are needed to
actually Play the game (In dooms case, .WAD files, can't remember for
Wolf3D). At best, you would have to get one of the utilities that lets you
write your own levels, and then you could use the free source code, compile
it, write your own levels, and have a completely free Doom of Wolfenstein
experience.

You already have everything you need to have a completely free Shadowrun
experience -- your imagination, pencil, and paper. Not to mention there's
already tons of free stuff on the internet.

-Adam J
--
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< "She pretty much walks around perpetually pissed at Mick." >
< - Kevin Kelly, on professional wrestler Mick Foleys wife Colleen >
Message no. 11
From: Roger Ramirez chariot@*********.net
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:41:19 -0500
>Because they aren't the same. The Wolfenstein and Doom source code is the
>source code. It doesn't include the required files that are needed to
>actually Play the game (In dooms case, .WAD files, can't remember for
>Wolf3D). At best, you would have to get one of the utilities that lets you
>write your own levels, and then you could use the free source code, compile
>it, write your own levels, and have a completely free Doom of Wolfenstein
>experience.


That's not the way I understood. If you have the source code you just
recompile the game and then take the doom.wad file from your friends machine
and now you have Doom. But anyways... that's stupid because if you friend
has Doom then just take the damn original if that's all you wanted.


Now the one book that I have in mind that is basically out of date. The
Universal Brotherhood. That book was an adventure that took place in 2051.
Shadowrun timeline is now in 2060. They Universal Brotherhood went out of
business because the UCAS found out what they really were around 2054.
SOOOOOO, there is no more Universal Brotherhood. BUT I STILL WANT THAT
MODULE!!! Sorry.. I didn't mean to scream.

BTW- If anyone has a copy of Universal Brotherhood and doesn't need it
anymore I sure would like to have/buy it. Please e-mail me if you do.

-Chariot
chariot@*********.net
Message no. 12
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:26:12 EST
In a message dated 99-02-15 07:45:16 EST, you write:

> Sure, some of the above is unlikely or likely, varying on FASA policy which
> I'm of course not privy to, but don't hold your breath waiting for free
> material.
>
> Slipspeed
>
All very valid points, but most of them would be null if FASA would open
negotioations with say a cut rate publishing house that coud do limited runs
of the older books that have suddenly been proving their worth. Yes, I'm
still talking shadowbeat here. Or, even better, and UPDATED 3rd ED
Shadowbeat.

Those of you on the playtest track with FASA, I have a question: If WE
(meaning the people on the list, or perhaps those of the Plastic Warriors or
NERPS) did all the work for them, and pretty much gave them a finished product
basicly ready for printing, would that help convince them to reprint a
Shadowbeat 3?
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:06:32 -0500 (EST)
> >Because they aren't the same. The Wolfenstein and Doom source code is the
> >source code. It doesn't include the required files that are needed to
> >actually Play the game (In dooms case, .WAD files, can't remember for
> >Wolf3D). At best, you would have to get one of the utilities that lets you
> >write your own levels, and then you could use the free source code, compile
> >it, write your own levels, and have a completely free Doom of Wolfenstein
> >experience.
>
>
> That's not the way I understood. If you have the source code you just
> recompile the game and then take the doom.wad file from your friends machine
> and now you have Doom. But anyways... that's stupid because if you friend
> has Doom then just take the damn original if that's all you wanted.

Well, that's the way it is. And it makes sense for exactly the reason
you pointed out...if you are going to pirate it, the source code
matters not.

> SOOOOOO, there is no more Universal Brotherhood. BUT I STILL WANT THAT
> MODULE!!! Sorry.. I didn't mean to scream.
> BTW- If anyone has a copy of Universal Brotherhood and doesn't need it
> anymore I sure would like to have/buy it. Please e-mail me if you d

There is one on auction at eBay, for two more days, but it is up to
$52.00 Good luck
Note to Admin: I'm not profiting from this. I dropped out of the
auction when it passed $35 :(

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 14
From: Chris Davidson toffer_@*******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:17:12 PST
Hey Brett...I lost your e-mail address, but where you ever going to send
that book to me?

-Toffer

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Message no. 15
From: Brett Borger bxb121@***.edu
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:32:37 -0500 (EST)
> Hey Brett...I lost your e-mail address, but where you ever going to send
> that book to me?

Yup, just got paid Friday. As soon as the Post Office gets off of
vacation (President's day), it's in the mail.

For everyone else, I had someone back out of a deal to get Corporate
security from a used bookstore here...So I'm left with an extra copy.
I'm not looking to profit, so I'll sell it at my cost, but I'd like to
get rid of it cuz I'm poor. If you are interested, email me
privately.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 16
From: Lehlan Decker DeckerL@******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:26:29 -0500
<SNIP List does work, Fasa prints>
Unfortunately my guess is it still might not get done. I've talked to
quite a few folks, who have submitted stuff to FASA. Fasa said
they liked it (for instance an SR military handbook), please send
the rest, they did, and have never heard anything back.
They seem to be going through an odd flux right now with
Microsoft, ED being laid to rest, etc. Hopefully as the year goes
on things will return to normal. Although I'm still wandering if their
website will ever be worth a damn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:14:34 +0100
According to Starrngr@***.com, at 11:26 on 15 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Those of you on the playtest track with FASA, I have a question: If WE
> (meaning the people on the list, or perhaps those of the Plastic Warriors or
> NERPS) did all the work for them, and pretty much gave them a finished product
> basicly ready for printing, would that help convince them to reprint a
> Shadowbeat 3?

A minor snag here is that I don't think many people on this list have
experience in this area, let alone know how to lay out a page (want proof?
check out just about any net.book) which means that giving FASA "a
finished product basicly ready for printing" would be somewhat difficult.

A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a third
edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves
already, don't you think?

That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd get the
chance...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Jordan findlerman@*****.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:31:47 -0800 (PST)
<SNIP>
>
> A minor snag here is that I don't think many people on this list have
> experience in this area, let alone know how to lay out a page (want
proof?
> check out just about any net.book) which means that giving FASA "a
> finished product basicly ready for printing" would be somewhat
difficult.

Sooo...you know how? Teach us. I like this idea. And even beyond
the possibility of actually doing this, I'd like to know what you
consider the 'official way'. So, one way or another (posting to the
list, or private e-mail) let me know.

> A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
> proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a
third
> edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves
> already, don't you think?

Agreed, to a extent. With third edition being (relatively) new, to
where they haven't gotten out the 'main' metal and magic books, these
'smaller' suppliments might still be in the making. Maybe we could
help, or, as one list subscriber put it, even do it for them, almost?

> That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd
get the
> chance...

Ditto.

--Fin
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Message no. 19
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:56:56 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:14 PM 2/15/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
>proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a
third
>edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves

>already, don't you think?
>
>That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd
get the
>chance...

If anyone does put together a Shadowbeat 3, whether or not FASA
publishes it, I've got something for the equipment chapter: a set of
rules for a new type of recording medium for audio/video. Optical
Chips, even at Shadowbeat's price, are rather expensive. A while back
I did up some rules for Optical Chip HardBoxes (a recording medium
mentioned in the first edition BBB but never detailed), and I think
they'd be cool for a Shadowbeat 3.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 20
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@**********.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:03:22 -0600
Jordan wrote:

> <SNIP>
> >
> > A minor snag here is that I don't think many people on this list have
> > experience in this area, let alone know how to lay out a page (want
> proof?
> > check out just about any net.book) which means that giving FASA "a
> > finished product basicly ready for printing" would be somewhat
> difficult.
>
> Sooo...you know how? Teach us. I like this idea. And even beyond
> the possibility of actually doing this, I'd like to know what you
> consider the 'official way'. So, one way or another (posting to the
> list, or private e-mail) let me know.

If you need someone to do formatting let me know I am capeable of doing
that. :) layout and all. Any quips. that sort of thing.

>
>
> > A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
> > proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a
> third
> > edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves
> > already, don't you think?
>
> Agreed, to a extent. With third edition being (relatively) new, to
> where they haven't gotten out the 'main' metal and magic books, these
> 'smaller' suppliments might still be in the making. Maybe we could
> help, or, as one list subscriber put it, even do it for them, almost?
>
> > That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd
> get the
> > chance...
>
> Ditto.

Hey same here!

>
>
> --Fin

GrimlakinPerhaps we could start a web based company that does version
conversions for RPG companies on a contractual as needed extremely cheap by
comparison basis? Satisfaction garunteed.
Message no. 21
From: Geoff Skellams geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:04:48 +1100
On shadowrn@*********.org, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.nl] wrote:
> According to Starrngr@***.com, at 11:26 on 15 Feb 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Those of you on the playtest track with FASA, I have a question: If
WE
> > (meaning the people on the list, or perhaps those of the Plastic
Warriors or
> > NERPS) did all the work for them, and pretty much gave them a
finished product
> > basicly ready for printing, would that help convince them to reprint
a
> > Shadowbeat 3?
>
> A minor snag here is that I don't think many people on this list have
> experience in this area, let alone know how to lay out a page (want
proof?
> check out just about any net.book) which means that giving FASA "a
> finished product basicly ready for printing" would be somewhat
difficult.
>
Au contraire. I have such experience. I do the layout for
DEMONGROUND: The Electronic Magazine of Dark Conspiracy. I'm in the
process of laying out issue 3 now. This is the first I have used Adobe
Pagemaker for doing the layout (I used Word97 for DG 1 & 2) and I am
much happier with how DG3 is turning out.
When we set out to create the fanzine, I wanted to create
something that is professional quality. I've since had a few people tell
me that I should be doing this for a living. So saying that no one on
this list knows how to lay out a page is a bit rich. I may not do it for
a living, but I can do a pretty good job of it IMHO.
If you want to have a look at DEMONGROUND 1 & 2, then check out
the DG website http://www.42north.org/~demonground/. The fanzines are
PDF files that you can download for free. It's worth having a look at
anyway - Dark Conspiracy is not that far removed from Shadowrun,
especially if you are still using the Horrors in your campaign (I've
brought ideas across before).
DG may not be perfect, I'll admit that. But it is MUCH better
than your average net book. It's even better than TSS (sorry Adam - TSS
is great, but I used TSS as a yardstick so that I had something to do
better than).

> A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
> proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a third

> edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves
> already, don't you think?
>
This is probably more the sticking point. Everything else
becomes moot really.

> That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd get
the
> chance...

I'd think about doing layout IF and ONLY IF the text had been
edited by someone who has decent spelling and grammar skills and it was
ready just to be dropped into Pagemaker. I have enough headaches having
to edit the DC stuff before I lay it out, and I wouldn't have time to do
both. I may not have time to do it anyway. But, if this project gets off
the ground, then I'll think about it.

cheers
G
--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165 (Eynowd)

Hili hewa ka mana'o ke 'ole ke kukakuka
(Ideas run wild without discussion)
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:24:00 EST
In a message dated 2/15/1999 1:16:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> According to Starrngr@***.com, at 11:26 on 15 Feb 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > Those of you on the playtest track with FASA, I have a question: If WE
> > (meaning the people on the list, or perhaps those of the Plastic Warriors
> or
> > NERPS) did all the work for them, and pretty much gave them a finished
> product
> > basicly ready for printing, would that help convince them to reprint a
> > Shadowbeat 3?

Doubtful, given the editorial and leadership basis. NO, that is NOT a slam
against anyone at FASA, that is merely the truth. Finished products
(textually speaking here, ignoring artwork) are not that easy to accomplish,
especially if a group the size of any you mention (let alone a combination of
them) tried to accomplish it.

> A minor snag here is that I don't think many people on this list have
> experience in this area, let alone know how to lay out a page (want proof?
> check out just about any net.book) which means that giving FASA "a
> finished product basicly ready for printing" would be somewhat difficult.

True, but truer still would be the idea that a finished product is probably
NOT going to have much room for "time line correspondence", which I have
personally discovered does in fact matter a great deal.

> A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
> proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a third
> edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves
> already, don't you think?

Doubtful again, given the MASSIVE amounts of time constraints that are being
dealt with. Also, many of the changes/updates to certain material (ie' Move-
by-Wire and Current rules concerning "Sensors") would have to be dramatically
changed, so much so that they would NOT look anything like their previous
incarnations.

> That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd get the
> chance...

Actually Gurth, I know many of us would like to do this. But to do this, one
more major thing would have to be set down into a functional standard. The
direction, material, and final drafting agreements. Basically, who's the
"leader" or "Gridsec" of a project of this nature, what stays, what
goes, what
isn't a thought, etc...

Just FYI. The Playtesters for SR3 had a mailing list (so I have been
informed, before my time) setup so they could communicate to varying extents.
Interestingly enough, no such list was set up during the duration of MitS's
playtesting term. Sure, people stayed in touch if/when they could, but
nothing on a "total group" scale.

Sorry, I'm in Rant mode...first day off work in 7 days....yep, I'm cranky...

-K
Message no. 23
From: David Hayes rook@***.net
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:59:28 -0800
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.com.au>
Subject: RE: SR Books Online

> Au contraire. I have such experience. I do the layout for
>DEMONGROUND: The Electronic Magazine of Dark Conspiracy. I'm in the
>process of laying out issue 3 now. This is the first I have used Adobe
>Pagemaker for doing the layout (I used Word97 for DG 1 & 2) and I am
>much happier with how DG3 is turning out.
> When we set out to create the fanzine, I wanted to create
>something that is professional quality. I've since had a few people
tell
>me that I should be doing this for a living. So saying that no one on
>this list knows how to lay out a page is a bit rich. I may not do it
for
>a living, but I can do a pretty good job of it IMHO.
> If you want to have a look at DEMONGROUND 1 & 2, then check out
>the DG website http://www.42north.org/~demonground/. The fanzines are
>PDF files that you can download for free. It's worth having a look at
>anyway - Dark Conspiracy is not that far removed from Shadowrun,
>especially if you are still using the Horrors in your campaign (I've
>brought ideas across before).
> DG may not be perfect, I'll admit that. But it is MUCH better
>than your average net book. It's even better than TSS (sorry Adam - TSS
>is great, but I used TSS as a yardstick so that I had something to do
>better than).


> I'd think about doing layout IF and ONLY IF the text had been
>edited by someone who has decent spelling and grammar skills and it was
>ready just to be dropped into Pagemaker. I have enough headaches having
>to edit the DC stuff before I lay it out, and I wouldn't have time to
do
>both. I may not have time to do it anyway. But, if this project gets
off
>the ground, then I'll think about it.
>cheers
>G
>Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
>Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au

well, as good as pagemaker is i use quark and i know how to use it
reasonably well. quark is best on a macintosh which is what i use at
work, but i prefer, and use, a pc at home. my experience comes from
laying out our college paper, which is usually anywhere from 24-32
pages, some colour, some black and white, with about 30 articles/stories
to deal with.
i would be glad to lend a hand to anything like this.



-----------------------------------------------
k. david hayes aka rook
rook@***.net
http://www.members.cnx.net/rook/
http://www.angelfire.com/ns/masquerade/
pages best viewed with IE 4.x or better
-----------------------------------------------
managing editor
ouc phoenix, kelowna b.c.
phoenix@******.okanagan.bc.ca
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:25:07 -0600
From: Brett Borger
Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 11:07 AM

>There is one on auction at eBay, for two more days, but it is up to
>$52.00 Good luck
>Note to Admin: I'm not profiting from this. I dropped out of the
>auction when it passed $35 :(

That's about the point I dropped out of the auction for those copies of
HARLEQUIN.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 25
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:51:18 -0500
Adam J wrote:
> Not really. But if they start giving away something, they basically say "We
> have no hope of making money on this product again", and in very few cases
> will they ever be able to make money again. Suppose FASA releases a pile
> of the old modules onto the web in PDF format, and then in 3 years decides
> they should re-release some of the old modules in paper format, in some
> sort of anthology.

The question for FASA is: would they ever do this? My guess is that they
never will. From what I understand, the amount of product they can release
is more or less limited by the amount of "throughput" they can afford from a
press. With a couple of exceptions, they will get a much higher rate of
return when they have presses only producing new product.

Again: it's all about money.

> Not to mention that they don't own everything that was
> published, some of the artwork for example.

If FASA is listening, I could live without the artwork. Actually, I could
live without the text as well, since I own most of the books anyway. What I
really want is a _very_ complete electronic index, or enough data to
generate one.

One thought: If the list formed a company, we could present FASA with an
offer to electronically produce out of print material. If nothing else, it
would be interesting to see their asking price.

Another thought: A number of months ago, I managed to find every issue of
KaGe in a RPG store in Denver. Those issues are just begging for electronic
versions, and might provide FASA a low-exposure way of judging the market.
Assuming someone still has the electronic originals.

Wordman
Message no. 26
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:45:18 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:51 PM 2/15/99 -0500, Wordman wrote:
>The question for FASA is: would they ever do this? My guess is that
they
>never will. From what I understand, the amount of product they can
release
>is more or less limited by the amount of "throughput" they can afford
from a
>press. With a couple of exceptions, they will get a much higher rate
of
>return when they have presses only producing new product.
>
>Again: it's all about money.

On the other hand, other RPG companies have tried their hand at the
reprinted sourcebook market and apparently are pleased enough with the
resulting sales to continue cranking them out.

White Wolf in particular has a total of 21 different volumes of
collected reprints on the market, and 3 more due out in the first half
of '99. (About one RPG book out of every nine that White Wolf
currently sells, is one of their collected reprints.)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:40:14 +0100
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 18:24 on 15 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > That said, though, I wouldn't mind doing some of this stuff if I'd get the
> > chance...
>
> Actually Gurth, I know many of us would like to do this. But to do this, one
> more major thing would have to be set down into a functional standard. The
> direction, material, and final drafting agreements. Basically, who's the
> "leader" or "Gridsec" of a project of this nature, what stays,
what goes, what
> isn't a thought, etc...

I get the impression you and I are interpreting the original post in
completely different ways. What I believe the idea was is to take
Shadowbeat (or whatever), update it for use with third edition rules,
stick in a layout, and hand it to FASA in a form that could be printed
(almost) right away.

Your interpretation seems to be that some group (similar to NERPS) would
actually _write_ the whole book and then let FASA print it, am I right?

The former is much easier, and doesn't need a group -- just someone with
time to spare and knowledge of both SR and how to use a good layout
program (no, MS Word doesn't count :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:40:15 +0100
According to Jordan, at 10:31 on 15 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Sooo...you know how? Teach us.

I _think_ I know how :) All I really do is make an effort to make things
look good and use the shortcuts my software provides for that.

> I like this idea. And even beyond the possibility of actually doing
> this, I'd like to know what you consider the 'official way'. So, one
> way or another (posting to the list, or private e-mail) let me know.

What do you mean by the "official way"?

> > A bigger problem is that I doubt FASA would see this as a viable
> > proposition. For starters, if they'd be interested in printing a third
> > edition update of old sourcebooks, they would have done it themselves
> > already, don't you think?
>
> Agreed, to a extent. With third edition being (relatively) new, to
> where they haven't gotten out the 'main' metal and magic books, these
> 'smaller' suppliments might still be in the making.

I doubt it. FASA didn't reprint most books for second edition even though
the changes between first and second would have warranted it in many
cases, so I don't believe anything like this will happen for third
edition.

BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this
list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)

> Maybe we could help, or, as one list subscriber put it, even do it for
> them, almost?

Like I said in another post, I certainly wouldn't mind doing something
like this. It's very unlikely to ever happen, but still...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:40:15 +0100
According to Geoff Skellams, at 10:04 on 16 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Au contraire. I have such experience.

I didn't say NOBODY had that kind of experience, just that most people
doing net.stuff don't seem to.

> I do the layout for DEMONGROUND: The Electronic Magazine of Dark
> Conspiracy. I'm in the process of laying out issue 3 now. This is the
> first I have used Adobe Pagemaker for doing the layout (I used Word97
> for DG 1 & 2) and I am much happier with how DG3 is turning out.

Agreed, PageMaker is a lot better once you get the hang of it (before that
time, though... :) Although I do wish it had as many features as Word
does.

> When we set out to create the fanzine, I wanted to create
> something that is professional quality. I've since had a few people tell
> me that I should be doing this for a living.

Same here.

> So saying that no one on this list knows how to lay out a page is a bit
> rich. I may not do it for a living, but I can do a pretty good job of it
> IMHO.

I said (and I quote myself): "I don't think many people on this list have
experience in this area" -- there's an M in there, if you look closely :)

> DG may not be perfect, I'll admit that. But it is MUCH better
> than your average net book. It's even better than TSS (sorry Adam - TSS
> is great, but I used TSS as a yardstick so that I had something to do
> better than).

You could use normal gaming magazines as somethign to compare your e-zine
to. I take printed books as starting points, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:34:48 +1000
>Just FYI. The Playtesters for SR3 had a mailing list (so I have been
>informed, before my time) setup so they could communicate to varying extents.
>Interestingly enough, no such list was set up during the duration of MitS's
>playtesting term. Sure, people stayed in touch if/when they could, but
>nothing on a "total group" scale.

That is, as far as I know, because the SR3 playtesters spent huge amounts
of time on the mailing list and Mike felt that it was unproductive. That's
basically the gist of what he told me when I asked about it, anyway.

Lady Jestyr

"A true beanie should have a propellor on the top." -- Terry Pratchett
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 31
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:05:19 EST
In a message dated 99-02-16 05:41:38 EST, you write:

> BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this
> list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)
>
> > Maybe we could help, or, as one list subscriber put it, even do it for
> > them, almost?
>
> Like I said in another post, I certainly wouldn't mind doing something
> like this. It's very unlikely to ever happen, but still...
>

Probobly because so few of us have it. I for one, am surprised at just how
many questions I have had have been refered to text in Shadowbeat. I mean, it
really sounds like it should have been the hot product, since it covered so
much of the incidentals that make a setting real... the little things, like
how much does your music chip hold, what are professional sports like in 20x,
etc.

Personally, I'm surprised it got such a low rating too.
Message no. 32
From: Shaun E. Gilroy shaung@**********.net
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:24:03 -0500
At 12:05 PM 2/16/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-02-16 05:41:38 EST, you write:
>
>> BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this
>> list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)
>>
>> > Maybe we could help, or, as one list subscriber put it, even do it for
>> > them, almost?
>>
>> Like I said in another post, I certainly wouldn't mind doing something
>> like this. It's very unlikely to ever happen, but still...
>>
>
>Probobly because so few of us have it. I for one, am surprised at just how
>many questions I have had have been refered to text in Shadowbeat. I
mean, it
>really sounds like it should have been the hot product, since it covered so
>much of the incidentals that make a setting real... the little things, like
>how much does your music chip hold, what are professional sports like in 20x,
>etc.
>
>Personally, I'm surprised it got such a low rating too.
>
>

My theory on that is because ShadowBeat is about nothing in particular...
Just stuff (mostly media-related). It has no major story elements or
tie-ins; it has no new guns or hot tech; and It has very, -very- bad artwork.

At first glance sitting on the shelf, it looks like a watered down version
of NAGRL. You have to actually sit down and start reading it before you
realize: "Hey, this book has a -lot- of good information in it.

The guy who got me into Shadowrun used to sit around and talk about how
cool that book was or I would have never given it a second glance.



Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 33
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:37:37 +0100
According to Starrngr@***.com, at 12:05 on 16 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> > BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this

> > list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)
>
> Probobly because so few of us have it. I for one, am surprised at just how
> many questions I have had have been refered to text in Shadowbeat. I mean, it
> really sounds like it should have been the hot product, since it covered so
> much of the incidentals that make a setting real... the little things, like
> how much does your music chip hold, what are professional sports like in 20x,
> etc.

That's the great thing about Shadowbeat -- it's not a book that you get
immediately usable add-ons for your street sam, mage, decker, etc. out of,
but it gives a _lot_ of background about the Sixth World that other books
seem to neglect: daily life stuff that doesn't do much in an actual
adventure, but which is very good to round out a character.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:53:20 -0600
>Another thought: A number of months ago, I managed to find every
issue of
>KaGe in a RPG store in Denver. Those issues are just begging for
electronic
>versions, and might provide FASA a low-exposure way of judging the
market.
>Assuming someone still has the electronic originals.


I'm amazed those things are still floating around, Les...been a while,
and they had a pretty small print run. Use up alot of karma on that
roll...?

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972
Message no. 35
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:20:26 -0700
At 10:04 2/16/99 +1100, Geoff Skellams wrote:

> DG may not be perfect, I'll admit that. But it is MUCH better
>than your average net book. It's even better than TSS (sorry Adam - TSS
>is great, but I used TSS as a yardstick so that I had something to do
>better than).

I would agree. DemonGround has alot more art/maps/fancies than TSS, and
does overall look to be higher quality.

-Adam J
Who took mental notes while reading it.
--
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< "She pretty much walks around perpetually pissed at Mick." >
< - Kevin Kelly, on professional wrestler Mick Foleys wife Colleen >
Message no. 36
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:53:39 -0500 (EST)
Starrngr@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 99-02-16 05:41:38 EST, you write:
> > BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this

> > list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)

I've noticed that Shadowbeat is one of those love/hate books.
Some people think it's the holy grail, and others think it's a pretty
silly book. I've talked with people who have read it over the years,
and a surprising number see it just as the rocker/reporter PC book,
kind of like the SSC is the Street Samurai Book, VR is the Decker
book, RBB is the Rigger book, and Grimoire is the Magician book.
(And, unfortunately, some of them think that the idea of a rocker PC
is really stupid. :( It's a real PITA when half the party doesn't like
you because their players don't like your character, not because the
characters don't.)
I've never run into a GM that hasn't liked the book though... :)

> Probobly because so few of us have it. I for one, am surprised at just how
> many questions I have had have been refered to text in Shadowbeat.
> I mean, it
> really sounds like it should have been the hot product, since it covered so
> much of the incidentals that make a setting real...

That's the thing, it covers the incidentals. It doesn't give
you new toys to make your characters more powerful, it isn't a holy
grail module like UB, or have anything else to give it widespread
appeal. On top of all that, it's a sourcebook that the GM is more
than happy to let the players go through (no sensitive information, or
toys that are off-limits), so a lot of players have seen it.

> the little things, like
> how much does your music chip hold, what are professional sports like in 20x,
> etc.

> Personally, I'm surprised it got such a low rating too.
Message no. 37
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:18:01 EST
In a message dated 2/16/1999 5:41:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> Your interpretation seems to be that some group (similar to NERPS) would
> actually _write_ the whole book and then let FASA print it, am I right?

Yes, but actually, you are not seeing a publishing project to it's fullest, or
even it's nearest, ending.

> The former is much easier, and doesn't need a group -- just someone with
> time to spare and knowledge of both SR and how to use a good layout
> program (no, MS Word doesn't count :)

I agree, however, knowledge of the material vs. the perceptual
translation/updating of that/those material(s) to SR3 levels would remain a
basis for group debating. Personally, I think I know the SR game very well,
but my interpretations of those rules do not match those of everyone else on
the list (let alone the players beyond it). And I'm pretty certain that my
viewpoints and perceptions/translations of those rules are not the equal of
your own, let alone someone like Steve K., who knows quite a bit about the SR
game (he's written a great deal of it), but who's personal viewpoints as to
what the material should be perceived as by the end user, is something
entirely different yet again.

-K
Message no. 38
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:21:29 EST
In a message dated 2/16/1999 8:43:43 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jestyr@*******.com.au writes:

>
> That is, as far as I know, because the SR3 playtesters spent huge amounts
> of time on the mailing list and Mike felt that it was unproductive. That's
> basically the gist of what he told me when I asked about it, anyway.
>
> Lady Jestyr
>
You are correct.

I was told the same thing as well (though in a slightly more graphic light at
times ;).

-K
Message no. 39
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon@*******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:28:33 PST
>Starrngr@***.com writes:
>> In a message dated 99-02-16 05:41:38 EST, you write:
>> > BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on
this
>> > list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)
>
> I've noticed that Shadowbeat is one of those love/hate books.
>Some people think it's the holy grail, and others think it's a pretty
>silly book. I've talked with people who have read it over the years,
>and a surprising number see it just as the rocker/reporter PC book,
>kind of like the SSC is the Street Samurai Book, VR is the Decker
>book, RBB is the Rigger book, and Grimoire is the Magician book.
>(And, unfortunately, some of them think that the idea of a rocker PC
>is really stupid. :( It's a real PITA when half the party doesn't
like
>you because their players don't like your character, not because the
>characters don't.)
> I've never run into a GM that hasn't liked the book though... :)

<BigSnip(TM)>

That's it! That's why it got such a low rating. You bastards who voted
are all pinko, player traitors!!

*Doc' pauses in his rant. "Wait a minute. I voted too..." Doc' shuts
up...*

Doc'

.sig Sauer


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 40
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:30:13 -0500
> In a message dated 99-02-16 05:41:38 EST, you write:
>
>> BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this
>> list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)
>
> Probobly because so few of us have it. I for one, am surprised at just how
> many questions I have had have been refered to text in Shadowbeat.

Shadowbeat did not sell well largely because the cover really sucked. At
least, as far as I can tell.

Wordman
Message no. 41
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:32:28 -0500
Tony Rabiola wrote:
> Wordman wrote:
>>Another thought: A number of months ago, I managed to find every
>> issue of KaGe in a RPG store in Denver.
>
> I'm amazed those things are still floating around, Les...been a while,
> and they had a pretty small print run. Use up alot of karma on that
> roll...?

I didn't think so at the time, but I did just get into a car accident...

Wordman
Message no. 42
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:09:59 +0100
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 16:18 on 16 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> I agree, however, knowledge of the material vs. the perceptual
> translation/updating of that/those material(s) to SR3 levels would remain a
> basis for group debating. Personally, I think I know the SR game very well,
> but my interpretations of those rules do not match those of everyone else on
> the list (let alone the players beyond it). And I'm pretty certain that my
> viewpoints and perceptions/translations of those rules are not the equal of
> your own, let alone someone like Steve K., who knows quite a bit about the SR
> game (he's written a great deal of it), but who's personal viewpoints as to
> what the material should be perceived as by the end user, is something
> entirely different yet again.

So what's needed is someone who thinks along the same lines as FASA. I
don't see any real problems with this, especially not since (should
something like this ever happen) it'd be checked out by FASA before it'd
actually be published anyway, probably with some or another re-write
following that. Plus, simply updating a book to third edition is quite
easy, not something I feel needs to be done by a committee (we all know
the results that tends to produce).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: SR Books Online
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:34:29 -0600
On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:40:15 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
>BTW, if Shadowbeat is made out to be the "holy grail" so often on this
>list, how come it only got rated 6.9 in the survey? :)
<SNIP>

It was so cool, we had to give it a magic number? :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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