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Message no. 1
From: - Digest <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject: SR Companion
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:41:00 -0500
From: X-From: MikeE@*********.COM (Mike Elkins) on 11/5/96

>When someone sees it (ShadowRun Companion) in a store, please tell the
>list.
>
>Double-Domed Mike

Hi - I guess it's time I stopped lurking.

The Shadowrun Companion: Beyond the Shadows is at the printers. We should see
it here in the next week and then about a week after in stores. It should be
in stores the week before Thansgiving. I'll know more the beginning of next
week. A sneak peak can be found on our web page by the end of the week.

Oh yeah - Shadowrun is not spelled ShadowRun. I hate that (...yeah I know
it's stupid but it's one of the pet peeves...ask me about chess variants and
I just might kill...)

Have Fun!
Play Games!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
See our web page at www.fasa.com
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:06:15 -0700
- Digest wrote:
|
|The Shadowrun Companion: Beyond the Shadows is at the printers. We should see
|it here in the next week and then about a week after in stores. It should be
|in stores the week before Thansgiving. I'll know more the beginning of next
|week. A sneak peak can be found on our web page by the end of the week.

Just in time for Christmas :) I'll be sure to check the
web site.

|Oh yeah - Shadowrun is not spelled ShadowRun. I hate that (...yeah I know
|it's stupid but it's one of the pet peeves...ask me about chess variants and
|I just might kill...)

I learned something new. So, what's this about chess
variants (hey, if I didn't ask, someone else would. And
just because you work for FASA doesn't mean you get off
easy ;)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 3
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:38:57 +0000
> Hi - I guess it's time I stopped lurking.

Sure Mike, now you've done it. No sleep for you again this month.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:17:18 +0100
- Digest said on 16:41/ 6 Nov 96...

> The Shadowrun Companion: Beyond the Shadows is at the printers. We should see
> it here in the next week and then about a week after in stores. It should be
> in stores the week before Thansgiving. I'll know more the beginning of next
> week. A sneak peak can be found on our web page by the end of the week.

Hmm... I guess I ordered it too soon :)

> Mike Mulvihill
> Shadowrun Line Developer
> FASA
> See our web page at www.fasa.com

And welcome on the list (it can't hurt to suck up a bit, can it? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The flat earth society has been here today.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:50:09 -0800
Droopy wrote:
>
> > Hi - I guess it's time I stopped lurking.
>
> Sure Mike, now you've done it. No sleep for you again this month.


His headache must have gone away from the FAB thingy.... ;)
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 6
From: - Digest <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:36:58 -0500
Droopy wrote on Wed, Nov 6, 1996 11:48 PM EDT

>Sure Mike, now you've done it. No sleep for you again this month.

And November was my sleeping month too, damn.

Have Fun!
Play Games!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
See our web page at www.fasa.com
Message no. 7
From: - Digest <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:51:49 -0500
Thanks all for the great welcome...

Can someone enlighten me on why my my name across the top of my posts says "-
Digest". I am not getting digested versions (and I don't want to), so do I
need to resubscribe or something? Also, is SOP for me not to get my own
posts.

Have Fun!
Play Games!
Help The Rookie!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
See our web page at www.fasa.com
Message no. 8
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:11:34 -0800
> Thanks all for the great welcome...
>
> Can someone enlighten me on why my my name across the top of my posts says "-
> Digest". I am not getting digested versions (and I don't want to), so do I
> need to resubscribe or something? Also, is SOP for me not to get my own
> posts.
>
> Have Fun!
> Play Games!
> Help The Rookie!
>
> Mike Mulvihill
> Shadowrun Line Developer
> FASA
> See our web page at www.fasa.com

Try sending "QUERY SHADOWRN" as a message to LISTSERV@******.NET, that will tell
you what your current options for the SHADOWRN list are...if thats no help try
sending HELP to the same place to get a list of commands and such....etc..

Also remember that your using a computer on a computer operated list, and well,
computers are about as bug free as Chicago..

-Zim
Message no. 9
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:31:02 -0500
At 03:11 PM 11/7/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Also remember that your using a computer on a computer operated list, and
well,
>computers are about as bug free as Chicago..

Yet another great misconception. Win95 is about as bug free as Chicago..
I would suggest our good friends from FASA switch to Windows NT
Workstation. Much more stable.. haven't been able to crash it once, and
I've tried many times :)

fd
Message no. 10
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:48:53 -0800
At 18:31 11/7/96 -0500, Forbidden Delirium wrote:
>At 03:11 PM 11/7/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>Also remember that your using a computer on a computer operated list, and well,
>>computers are about as bug free as Chicago..

> Yet another great misconception. Win95 is about as bug free as Chicago..

Wasn't "Chicago" Microsoft's code name for Win95? Or just 32-bit windows in
general?
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 11
From: The Crucible <crucible@******.MUR.CSU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:15:58 +1100
> >At 03:11 PM 11/7/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >>Also remember that your using a computer on a computer operated list, and
well,
> >>computers are about as bug free as Chicago..
>
> > Yet another great misconception. Win95 is about as bug free as Chicago..
>
> Wasn't "Chicago" Microsoft's code name for Win95? Or just 32-bit windows
in
> general?
> --
It was the code name... but basically they found that they had to
redesign the whole code because it had so many bugs in it (hence the late
release) and therefore we got Windoze 95.... which has a few less bugs
than Chicago (if your talking about pre-release versions) :)

Crucible
Message no. 12
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:15:59 -0700
> And November was my sleeping month too, damn.

Hmmm so its true that the people/looneys at FASA hibernate....I say we tag
'em and track their movements. :)

Caric-the-biology-of-FASA-guys-shaman
Message no. 13
From: The Crucible <crucible@******.MUR.CSU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:26:05 +1100
> > And November was my sleeping month too, damn.
>
> Hmmm so its true that the people/looneys at FASA hibernate....I say we tag
> 'em and track their movements. :)
>

How about the movements of the money they get from us... no longer
relying on the woodchucks we can use the profits to fund Shadowrun The Movie.

Crucible
Message no. 14
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:18:30 -0700
> Can someone enlighten me on why my my name across the top of my posts
says "-
> Digest". I am not getting digested versions (and I don't want to), so do
I
> need to resubscribe or something?

I was wondering why your posts said that as well, but I figured you had an
in ;)

Also, is SOP for me not to get my own
> posts.

I always get my own posts......

Caric-the-welcoming-Mike-to-the-list-shaman
Message no. 15
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:25:14 -0700
> How about the movements of the money they get from us... no longer
> relying on the woodchucks we can use the profits to fund Shadowrun The
Movie.

How 'bout just getting a portable camera and filming the movie in my
garage? Its even more scary then Seattle in 205x...trust me I know. :)

> Crucible

Caric
Message no. 16
From: The Crucible <crucible@******.MUR.CSU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:37:02 +1100
> > How about the movements of the money they get from us... no longer
> > relying on the woodchucks we can use the profits to fund Shadowrun The
> Movie.
>
> How 'bout just getting a portable camera and filming the movie in my
> garage? Its even more scary then Seattle in 205x...trust me I know. :)

Ah but can we transfer it to the right size film for cinemas.... and
maybe if you've got a good enough zoom we can use star wars figurines for
the actors! Chewbacca the Wendigo.... (do the ewoks look like woodchucks?)

Uh.... maybe not :)

> > Crucible
>
> Caric
>

Crucible
Message no. 17
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:05:06 +0000
> Can someone enlighten me on why my my name across the top of my posts says "-
> Digest". I am not getting digested versions (and I don't want to), so do I
> need to resubscribe or something? Also, is SOP for me not to get my own
> posts.

If you resubscribe to the list while you are still subscribed to it,
(subscribe shadowrn FASAMike), the listserver will send you back a
message saying that you're identified as FASAMike.

This is something I discovered after the 10 Oct slowdown when I thought I was
dumped from the list. Checking the list of those subscribed, a few
others did this as well.

-Thomas Deeny
The Cartoonist at Large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"I don't know who that is, but he'd better give Cap back his shield."
-Me, after seeing Rob Liefeld's version of Captain America.
Message no. 18
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 22:45:41 -0800
> Thanks all for the great welcome...

!!!
I'm still hiding in shame for contributing to the Woodchuck thread.

> Can someone enlighten me on why my my name across the top of my posts
says "-
> Digest". I am not getting digested versions (and I don't want to), so do
I
> need to resubscribe or something? Also, is SOP for me not to get my own
> posts.

try sending to listserv@********.itribe.net

no subject

reg Your-name-here

no sig file

The reg command will, afaik, affect all of your subscriptions that the
listproc.itribe.net machine holds.

The listserve is automatically set to not send you your own posts.
(If you did want them send (no quotes) 'set shadowrn rep' if you are
geting them, and don't want them, send 'set shadowrn norep')

Also 'review shadowrn' will let you know who is on the list.


> Help The Rookie!

Do I have to?
:)

Hope that helps!

--
Dvixen/Snow Leopard/Celt dvixen@********.com
"Snow Melts"
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 19
From: Isaac Howard <howa9545@**.UIDAHO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:48:10 -0800
On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Forbidden Delirium wrote:

> At 03:11 PM 11/7/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >Also remember that your using a computer on a computer operated list, and
> well,
> >computers are about as bug free as Chicago..
>
> Yet another great misconception. Win95 is about as bug free as Chicago..
> I would suggest our good friends from FASA switch to Windows NT
> Workstation. Much more stable.. haven't been able to crash it once, and
> I've tried many times :)

you my friend haven't tried to tweak it enough I have crashed it four
times in the three weeks I've had it.

Although I agree it is better the win95 by 1000%

Isderf


//////////////////// Isderf International \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

howa9545@**.uidaho.edu

http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~howa9545

"RTFM"

"Fraggin Drek"

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Transmission Terminated //////////////////
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:22:05 +0100
- Digest said on 17:51/ 7 Nov 96...

> Can someone enlighten me on why my my name across the top of my posts says "-
> Digest". I am not getting digested versions (and I don't want to), so do I
> need to resubscribe or something?

Usually, the name displayed above messages is set in your mailer (this one
should say "Gurth", for example) so you should check in the settings of
your mailer I guess...

> Also, is SOP for me not to get my own posts.

To get copies of your own posts, send the following to
listserv@********.itribe.net:

SET SHADOWRN REPRO
HELP

(The HELP command sends you a list with all available commands for the
list server.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Real things don't need PR.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 07:09:50 -0500
At 11:48 PM 11/7/96 -0800, you wrote:
>you my friend haven't tried to tweak it enough I have crashed it four
>times in the three weeks I've had it.

Oh well. This has nothing to do with Shadowrun or Unix (both scary
things.. although I use them both routinely), so I'll just end it with :
beware the evil blue hex dump.

fd
Message no. 22
From: Peter Bailey <pbailey@***.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:23:22 -0800
Hi,

> Hi - I guess it's time I stopped lurking.

Well, in case no-one else has said it, Welcome to the list! I for one
never thought I'd see the day.

> The Shadowrun Companion: [SNIP]

Thanks. I'm starting to drool in anticipation..... :)


--

Internet: pbailey@***.com.au Fidonet: 3:640/281.3

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PGP fingerprint = 9C A2 D9 D8 CF 78 EC E7 3D 9F C7 C7 FD 11 85 4E
Member Team AMIGA
Message no. 23
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Sr Companion
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:35:12 -0500
Picked up the Comapion today glacing through it. New creation rules umm..
garbage. Complete rip off of the merit and flaws out of white wolf and
gurps. Variant race ohhh even more elves with no penalities. Skills and
training that good they been needed for a long time now. The rest of it ok
but not all that usefull to anyone but a new gm.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 24
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@******.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:05:19 -0500
NightLife[SMTP:habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU] wrote:
>Picked up the Comapion today glacing through it. New creation rules umm..
>garbage. Complete rip off of the merit and flaws out of white wolf and
>gurps. Variant race ohhh even more elves with no penalities. Skills and
>training that good they been needed for a long time now. The rest of it ok
>but not all that usefull to anyone but a new gm.


Wow, I had a completely different reaction.

One, I like the new point-based character generation system. Two, the
Edges/flaws are MUCH closer to GURPS than to WW (WW stole the concept from
GURPS/Hero anyway. Originatily aside, the concept is nice. Necessary, maybe
not. But nice)

Two, elves never had penalties. While I think that the new variant
metahuman races are unlikely to show up in a Seattle-based campaign, they
are useful for spice, and for non-seattle people.

The skill stuff was absolutely essential, as I have had numerous problems
with skill, etc.

Trainig is a great way to suck a little more cash, or even do an adventure
around.

Cash-to-Karma and Karma-to-Cash will help solve a couple of problems in my
game, though I'm not sure of the in-game explanation.




I'd have to say that the book was worth it to me (a SRII gm who converted
over from SRI) and would have been even at $18US.


From a Gateway 2000 manual:
Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength
wet/dry vac is not covered by your warranty
mailto:jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu
Message no. 25
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:36:01 -0600
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

> NightLife[SMTP:habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU] wrote:
> >Picked up the Comapion today glacing through it. New creation rules umm..
> >garbage. Complete rip off of the merit and flaws out of white wolf and
> >gurps. Variant race ohhh even more elves with no penalities. Skills and
> >training that good they been needed for a long time now. The rest of it ok
> >but not all that usefull to anyone but a new gm.
>
>
> Wow, I had a completely different reaction.
>
> One, I like the new point-based character generation system. Two, the
> Edges/flaws are MUCH closer to GURPS than to WW (WW stole the concept from
> GURPS/Hero anyway. Originatily aside, the concept is nice. Necessary, maybe
> not. But nice)

Yes but Ars Magica had virtues/flaws before GURPS came out. WW merged
with Lion Rampant however using character points for Virtue/flaw points
was stollen from GURPS.

>



[snip]

>
> >From a Gateway 2000 manual:
> Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength
> wet/dry vac is not covered by your warranty
> mailto:jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu
>
SteveD
Message no. 26
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 18:27:26 -0500
>> Wow, I had a completely different reaction.
>>
>> One, I like the new point-based character generation system. Two, the
>> Edges/flaws are MUCH closer to GURPS than to WW (WW stole the concept from
>> GURPS/Hero anyway. Originatily aside, the concept is nice. Necessary, maybe
>> not. But nice)

Now after a through persual of the boo the SOTA rules anlonfg with the
contact up keep that good. My players have been doing that for years now at
much higher levels of presents. The rules for learning skills very nice I've
used Linda's for a long time now. Kudo's to her for making them up. All in
all a good book. The races aren't bad either but they needed some minor
adjustements but nothing major. I could post them if anyone would want to
see them.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 27
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:33:47 -0600
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, NightLife wrote:

> >> Wow, I had a completely different reaction.
> >>
> >> One, I like the new point-based character generation system. Two, the
> >> Edges/flaws are MUCH closer to GURPS than to WW (WW stole the concept from
> >> GURPS/Hero anyway. Originatily aside, the concept is nice. Necessary, maybe
> >> not. But nice)
>
> Now after a through persual of the boo the SOTA rules anlonfg with the
> contact up keep that good. My players have been doing that for years now at
> much higher levels of presents. The rules for learning skills very nice I've
> used Linda's for a long time now. Kudo's to her for making them up. All in
> all a good book. The races aren't bad either but they needed some minor
> adjustements but nothing major. I could post them if anyone would want to
> see them.

Please do! It will be a while before I can get my hands on the book.

Thanx
Czar Eggbert
Home Page: http://www.creighton.edu/~czregbrt
Message no. 28
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:14:25 -0800
At 18:27 11/30/96 -0500, NightLife wrote:
>Now after a through persual of the boo the SOTA rules anlonfg with the
>contact up keep that good.

The SOTA rules are, IMO, nonsense. Consider: if the SOTA advances on
Wired Reflexes, why should your character get *slower*? Normal, unwired
people are still moving at the same speed. Just because someone came out
with a better version doesn't mean you should slow down. Similarly,
why should advances in magic theory make your libraries less useful and
reduce your ability to invent spells? Why should your body armor be less
able to defend against attacks that didn't get affected by the SOTA?

The section on Edges and Flaws was in dire need of an editor. There were
listed Flaws from -1 to -3 where the table for putting them together would
produce ones from -2 to -5. The "Technical Education" Edge can, supposedly,
be upgraded to the "College Education" Edge through roleplaying, but that
would mean you'd *lose* abilities by increasing your education.

Doubtless there will be many new threads regarding converting Virtues/Merits
and Flaws from Ars Magica and Storyteller to Shadowrun on this list in the
future...
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:41:33 +0100
Max Rible said on 11:14/ 2 Dec 96...

> The SOTA rules are, IMO, nonsense. Consider: if the SOTA advances on
> Wired Reflexes, why should your character get *slower*? Normal, unwired
> people are still moving at the same speed. Just because someone came out
> with a better version doesn't mean you should slow down. Similarly,
> why should advances in magic theory make your libraries less useful and
> reduce your ability to invent spells? Why should your body armor be less
> able to defend against attacks that didn't get affected by the SOTA?

That's what I got thinking about yesterday as well (amazing, the things
you do to avoid thinking about the wind you're pedalling against on your
bike... :) Cyberware could degrade over time due to general wear, like a
car that doesn't get maintained properly will start breaking down more
often, but if the ware is kept in good working order, it should last a
lifetime, if not longer. Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 30
From: Guido Hölker <guido@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:08:20 +0100
>
>> The SOTA rules are, IMO, nonsense. Consider: if the SOTA advances on
>> Wired Reflexes, why should your character get *slower*? Normal, unwired
>> people are still moving at the same speed. Just because someone came out
>> with a better version doesn't mean you should slow down.

Of course (as long as the Chrome is maintained)you don't get slower, but you
get **relativly** slower! So they are only two possibilities:
-Making new cyberware faster and faster and faster, but this makes the
difference between People with and without too big or
-slowly degrade the old Cyberware.
IMO the last makes prefectly sense (we use a rule like this (I didn't see
the comanion until now) since a long time..
Message no. 31
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:07:11 -0500
>
> > The SOTA rules are, IMO, nonsense. Consider: if the SOTA advances on
> > Wired Reflexes, why should your character get *slower*? Normal, unwired
> > people are still moving at the same speed. Just because someone came out
> > with a better version doesn't mean you should slow down. Similarly,
> > why should advances in magic theory make your libraries less useful and
> > reduce your ability to invent spells? Why should your body armor be less
> > able to defend against attacks that didn't get affected by the SOTA?
>
> That's what I got thinking about yesterday as well (amazing, the things
> you do to avoid thinking about the wind you're pedalling against on your
> bike... :) Cyberware could degrade over time due to general wear, like a
> car that doesn't get maintained properly will start breaking down more
> often, but if the ware is kept in good working order, it should last a
> lifetime, if not longer. Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
> stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
> it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
> rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)
>
I don't know about cyberware degration, but I could see using SOTA for
armor, though it would be a much longer time period than for software. As
both the armor and the armor piercing technology advances, the old stuff
would gradually become obsolete. There is also degredation from repeated
bullet hits. (Read somewhere that after a bullet proof vest gets shot, it
is supposed to be discarded. Something about weakening and displacing the
kevlar fibars.) Also a ceramic plate made in 2056 should be much better
than one in 1996 due to advances in ceramic bonding technology, quantem
physics, ect. Just compare the armor on the M1A1 to the armor on the M60.
Or the main gun for that matter. Big differences. One last possibility
for armor denegration is 'awakened' or accidently releaced
micro-organisms. Who knows what bacteria will be eating in 2056. If they
can eat through the London dome, why not ballistic armor as well.
Message no. 32
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:45:52 -0800
> Max Rible said on 11:14/ 2 Dec 96...
>
> > The SOTA rules are, IMO, nonsense. Consider: if the SOTA advances on
> > Wired Reflexes, why should your character get *slower*? Normal, unwired
> > people are still moving at the same speed. Just because someone came out
> > with a better version doesn't mean you should slow down. Similarly,
> > why should advances in magic theory make your libraries less useful and
> > reduce your ability to invent spells? Why should your body armor be less
> > able to defend against attacks that didn't get affected by the SOTA?
>
> That's what I got thinking about yesterday as well (amazing, the things
> you do to avoid thinking about the wind you're pedalling against on your
> bike... :) Cyberware could degrade over time due to general wear, like a
> car that doesn't get maintained properly will start breaking down more
> often, but if the ware is kept in good working order, it should last a
> lifetime, if not longer. Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
> stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
> it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
> rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

As for the armor, do you use the Armor Degradation Rules (I don't remember if
they appear in any *official* stuff...)?

It seems reasonable to expect the armor that repeatedly stops rifle rounds to
suffer some "wear" does it not?

Otherwise you have the case of your PC wearing that dingy old long-coat that he
bought back in the summer of '51 that's still perfectly fine despite being on
the receiving end of millions of pounds (or kilos for you metric people) of
lead. The case of the "Immortal Armor".

Understandably this is not SOTA directly, but a good parallel.
Basically, you could apply the general wear-n-tear to just about everything to
force the PC's to soak some nuyen in maintanance

~Tim
Message no. 33
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:32:38 -0800
At 14:08 12/3/96 +0100, Guido Hölker wrote:
>Of course (as long as the Chrome is maintained)you don't get slower, but=
you
>get **relativly** slower! So they are only two possibilities:
>-Making new cyberware faster and faster and faster, but this makes the
>difference between People with and without too big

What, exactly, is advancing in the SOTA of Wired Reflexes? Speed, right?
So the latest reflexes coming out are faster than the previous set and,
by transitivity, *even faster* than uncybered people.

> or
>-slowly degrade the old Cyberware.
>IMO the last makes prefectly sense (we use a rule like this (I didn't see
>the comanion until now) since a long time..

There are still people who are perfectly normal out there who *aren't*
having their reflexes degrade. In the absence of increases in the SOTA,
people with Wired Reflexes should have a consistent edge over unwired
people. Adding SOTA improvements in Wired Reflexes shouldn't change that.

The basic problem with the SOTA rules is that there's a huge pool of things
they refer to that don't take SOTA improvements. The SOTA does not make
broken arms harder to treat or Mana Dart harder to invent, so advances in
the SOTA should not reduce your Biotech skill (which you use to treat broken
arms) or your Magic Theory skill. If the SOTA made advances in how you=
treat
broken arms, then that should be reflected by increases in Biotech skill--
the old techniques haven't gotten any worse, but the new ones are better.
In the Matrix, everything is based on human-written software, and the SOTA
rules work because all the software is being upgraded: the fundamentals
of the world are being changed. No matter how many scientists you have in
a research lab, you're not going to change the basic nature of medicine and
magic theory (unless this is heralding the upcoming Mage: the Ascension
crossover, and it turns out that the Technocracy is still changing the rules
of reality).
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire=
%%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me =
%%%
Message no. 34
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 10:41:02 -0700
> Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
> stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
> it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
> rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)

Yeah, but that would be handled in the FoF's Armor Degradation, wouldn't it?

-Tom-
Message no. 35
From: JTFPJ@***.COM
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:47:19 -0500
off the list!!!
Message no. 36
From: David Fallon <dfallon@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:23:01 -0800
> That's what I got thinking about yesterday as well (amazing, the things
> you do to avoid thinking about the wind you're pedalling against on your
> bike... :) Cyberware could degrade over time due to general wear, like a
> car that doesn't get maintained properly will start breaking down more
> often, but if the ware is kept in good working order, it should last a
> lifetime, if not longer. Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
> stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
> it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
> rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

You guys really aren't thinking about this. <Grin> I don't mean to jump all
over you, gurth, I just happened to pick your response to reply to. This is
really directed at all of the people going off on the SOTA rules.

I agree with everyone that it doesn't make sense. That's not how the real
world works. I do, however, agree with FASA's creation of the rule. It
doesn't make much sense, reality-wise, but it makes a lot of sense gameplay-
wise. There are two directions that you could go to simulate SOTA. You can
make everything that's new be better than the original stuff. Think about
where this trend would go. We'd be rolling 30d6+44 for initiative _really_
quick. FASA decided to take the intelligent approach. No need to make
everyone roll more dice, just make the stuff that you've got degrade. Then,
there's a finite maximum that people hit, and we won't be having stats
higher than that. AND, there's a difference between a character with cutting
edge stuff, and someone with 5 year old wired. Make more sense now? <grin>
That's my take on why FASA did it, at least. Could be wrong, who knows...

David Fallon
Message no. 37
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:54:23 -0500
At 01:47 PM 12/3/96 -0500, JTFPJ@***.COM wrote:
>off the list!!!
>

Do it your friggin self. You can read can't you?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 38
From: Silvio Sampietro <cyric@*****.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:15:00 MET
At 08:45 03.12.1996 -0800, Timothy Cooper wrote:

>As for the armor, do you use the Armor Degradation Rules (I don't remember=
if
>they appear in any *official* stuff...)?

>It seems reasonable to expect the armor that repeatedly stops rifle rounds=
to
>suffer some "wear" does it not?

Yes, they appear in the official stuff ;-). In the book fields of fire (or
whatever it´s called in English I mean the mercenaries handbook) on p. 75
in the German version...the topic is optional rules. Dunno ´bout the
english version. I am terribly sorry about this because not only i bought
it in German, I also use Windows. I am a jerk!! ;-) Guess I wouldn´t bee
that much of an amateur if i used linux...hehe. Ohh well, it works fine for
me.
Message no. 39
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:03:52 -0600
FYI, my players are screaming bloody murder about the time and money it
now takes to improve skills. (More the time than money.)

--
Rick Jones "I'll say a prayer for him tonight."
rick@******.com "He's agnostic."
"Then I'll say half a prayer."
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ -- Ivanova & Franklin, Babylon 5
Message no. 40
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:33:38 +0000
|
|FYI, my players are screaming bloody murder about the time and money it
|now takes to improve skills. (More the time than money.)

Tell them "Tough luck!"

Shadowrun is SUPPOSED to be a slow progression system...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 41
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:45:39 +1100
> higher than that. AND, there's a difference between a character with cutting
> edge stuff, and someone with 5 year old wired. Make more sense now? <grin>
> That's my take on why FASA did it, at least. Could be wrong, who knows...

I too can see the logic, but it sucks. By this rule, the difference
between someone with no cyber and 5-year-old wired 5 years ago is the same
as the difference between someone with no cyber and someone with this
year's model. Unless you want to have normal people degrade too...

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 42
From: Dustin McCraw <Dustin.McCraw@***.EFI.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:46:16 -0800
The Jestyr[SMTP:jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU] said:

>> higher than that. AND, there's a difference between a character with cutting
>> edge stuff, and someone with 5 year old wired. Make more sense now? <grin>
>> That's my take on why FASA did it, at least. Could be wrong, who knows...

>I too can see the logic, but it sucks. By this rule, the difference
>between someone with no cyber and 5-year-old wired 5 years ago is the same
>as the difference between someone with no cyber and someone with this
>year's model. Unless you want to have normal people degrade too...

>Lady Jestyr

What about making newer models of cyberware use up less essence than older models?

Dustin
Message no. 43
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:37:29 -0500
> The Jestyr[SMTP:jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU] said:
>
> >> higher than that. AND, there's a difference between a character with cutting
> >> edge stuff, and someone with 5 year old wired. Make more sense now?
<grin>
> >> That's my take on why FASA did it, at least. Could be wrong, who knows...
>
> >I too can see the logic, but it sucks. By this rule, the difference
> >between someone with no cyber and 5-year-old wired 5 years ago is the same
> >as the difference between someone with no cyber and someone with this
> >year's model. Unless you want to have normal people degrade too...
>
> >Lady Jestyr
>
> What about making newer models of cyberware use up less essence than older models?
>
> Dustin

I remember in one of the books, one of the characters had one of the first
generation wired reflexes. He got a worse and worse case of shakes as
time went along. Nasty.
Message no. 44
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:59:06 -0500
At 09:45 AM 12/4/96 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
>> higher than that. AND, there's a difference between a character with cutting
>> edge stuff, and someone with 5 year old wired. Make more sense now? <grin>
>> That's my take on why FASA did it, at least. Could be wrong, who knows...
>
>I too can see the logic, but it sucks. By this rule, the difference
>between someone with no cyber and 5-year-old wired 5 years ago is the same
>as the difference between someone with no cyber and someone with this
>year's model. Unless you want to have normal people degrade too...
>

Not as long as they keep everything running in tip top shape. It's kind of
like having a car and never taking it into the shop for a tune up.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 45
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:08:07 -0800
At 18:59 12/2/96 -0500, NightLife wrote:
>At 09:45 AM 12/4/96 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
>>I too can see the logic, but it sucks. By this rule, the difference
>>between someone with no cyber and 5-year-old wired 5 years ago is the same
>>as the difference between someone with no cyber and someone with this
>>year's model. Unless you want to have normal people degrade too...

>Not as long as they keep everything running in tip top shape. It's kind of
>like having a car and never taking it into the shop for a tune up.

Which isn't exactly SOTA, that's just maintenance. Some of the SOTA rules
might be adapted to "regular maintenance costs"-- you need to get your
wired reflexes and your smartgun link recalibrated, power packs changed,
etc. This could provide the appropriate trouble for PC's without straining
belief as the SOTA notion does.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 46
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:26:01 -0500
At 01:47 PM 12/3/96 -0500, JTFPJ@***.COM wrote:
>off the list!!!
>
Pure and simple, kid, none of us except maybe Mark or Fro can take you off
the list...

You have to send a message to LISTSERV telling it to unsubscribe you...

So stop spamming us and asking us to do the work for ya... We've told you
how to do it, so do it...

<shames his head and mutters to himself about people who don't pay attention>

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Sure, I've handled a machine gun lots of times.
I was the captain of the Machine Gun Team in High School."
-Jeff Goldblum, in some bad movie from the '80's called "Vibes"
Message no. 47
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:24:33 -0800
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 JTFPJ@***.COM wrote:

> off the list!!!
>

Look! Would you just send "Unsubscribe Shadowrn" to
Listserv@********.itribe.net and be done with it.

(didn't you read your confirmation notice?)
~Tim
Message no. 48
From: Wolf <fsljb1@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:13:54 -0900
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to mime@*********.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--0-1174320290-849680034=:3844
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

OK EVERYONE, I THINK I GOT RID OF HIM THROUGH NETSCAPE, I HOPE IT WORKS.

*PLEASE WORK DAMMIT*


Wolf



On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 JTFPJ@***.COM wrote:
>
> > off the list!!!
> >
>
> Look! Would you just send "Unsubscribe Shadowrn" to
> Listserv@********.itribe.net and be done with it.
>
> (didn't you read your confirmation notice?)
> ~Tim
>

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Message no. 49
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:01:11 +0100
Spike said on 21:33/ 3 Dec 96...

> |FYI, my players are screaming bloody murder about the time and money it
> |now takes to improve skills. (More the time than money.)
>
> Tell them "Tough luck!"
>
> Shadowrun is SUPPOSED to be a slow progression system...

Skill advancement times are something I like and don't like at the same
time :) I tend to favor the idea that you don't have to study a skill if
you've used it in the game since last time you increased its level
(naturally, the GM decides whether or not you used the skill enough to not
have to study).
I don't know if the Companion covers this, as I only got it this morning
and haven't really had a chance to read it (with 209 mails from this
list, who has the time? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:01:11 +0100
Timothy P Cooper said on 8:45/ 3 Dec 96...

[SOTA for body armor]
> As for the armor, do you use the Armor Degradation Rules (I don't remember if
> they appear in any *official* stuff...)?

They're in FoF, though I don't really like those rules...

> It seems reasonable to expect the armor that repeatedly stops rifle
> rounds to suffer some "wear" does it not?
>
> Otherwise you have the case of your PC wearing that dingy old long-coat
> that he bought back in the summer of '51 that's still perfectly fine
> despite being on the receiving end of millions of pounds (or kilos for
> you metric people) of lead. The case of the "Immortal Armor".

That'd be a neat trick, I agree, but that's not the same as SOTA armor --
SOTA implies advancing technology, and in the field of body armor that
means lighter materials with the same strength as older ones -- for
example, kevlar vests replacing nylon ones, giving the same protection
for less weight, or more protection for the same weight. However,
introduction of a lighter vest doesn't mean the older one becomes less
effective: the nylon vest will still stop all the attacks it did before
the kevlar one was introduced.

One way to explain it is by saying that the damage codes stay the same
over time, but that they're relatively more powerful than older ones.
That doesn't make much sense, though, because you'd really have to lower
the damages of the older weapons to show this -- which comes down to much
the same thing as increasing damage codes for more modern weapons.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 51
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:01:11 +0100
Robert Pendergrast (Tom) said on 10:41/ 3 Dec 96...

> > Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
> > stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
> > it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
> > rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)
>
> Yeah, but that would be handled in the FoF's Armor Degradation, wouldn't it?

Only if the plate would get fired on in the mean time. Make a ceramic
plate today, and put it on a shelf for 60 years so it won't degrade in
any way. Then make one in 2056 to the same strength as the 1996 one, and
IMO they should both stop the same kinds of bullets under the same
circumstances.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 52
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 08:28:57 -0600
> > Same thing for body armor -- a ceramic plate that
> > stops a rifle round is a ceramic plate that stops a rifle round, whether
> > it was manufactured in 1996 or in 2056. (Except, of course, if the rifle
> > rounds get more powerful in the mean time.)
> Yeah, but that would be handled in the FoF's Armor Degradation, wouldn't it?

My theory on the Armor SOTA rules is similar to the reflexes theory (i.e.,
we don't want people with 400+20d6 init.). The armor SOTA is meant to
reflect the increase in BULLET technology. These higher damage codes
would be equally modeled by lower armor values, and the difference between
soaking old bullets and the new ones without armor is quite little. It
flat out sucks to get shot when you have no armor.

Waddya think, sirs?
Tim Serpas
wretch@**.com
Message no. 53
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:09:34 UT
>> >Picked up the Comapion today glacing through it. New creation rules
>>>umm..
Yup Just got hold of it, one of the first copies from virgin mega-store, (and
I had to camp out all night for it to :) )
>> >garbage. Complete rip off of the merit and flaws out of white wolf and
> >>gurps. Variant race ohhh even more elves with no penalities. Skills
>>>and
>> >training that good they been needed for a long time now. The rest of it
>>>ok
>> >but not all that usefull to anyone but a new gm.
Yeah the stuff about adventure design I would have to agree, and How to hire a
shadowrunner, >>>>>Shameless plug: nerps under world did it better /
shameless
plug<<<<< the new character gen is good new races....Hmmmmm yes well I like
the giant and all the new elves but that might just be me, >:-) (well that was
ment to be a elf but....) THe new contacts system would be good except I
already have a system in house rules similar to that (using win card I think
the total was about 300 seperate personalities :) )

>> Wow, I had a completely different reaction.
>>
>> One, I like the new point-based character generation system. Two, the
>> Edges/flaws are MUCH closer to GURPS than to WW (WW stole the >>concept
from
>> GURPS/Hero anyway. Originatily aside, the concept is nice. >>Necessary,
maybe
>> not. But nice)
>>
>>Yes but Ars Magica had virtues/flaws before GURPS came out. WW >>merged
>>with Lion Rampant however using character points for Virtue/flaw points
>>was stollen from GURPS.
I you saying you never mix and match?

>>
>[snip]
>
>>
>> >From a Gateway 2000 manual:
>> Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength
>> wet/dry vac is not covered by your warranty
>> mailto:jhurley1@******.stevens-tech.edu
>>
>SteveD
Incidently while I was reading though it I notice that I recognised some of
the runner (oak, sasser and a few others) these are all chracter from the
group that linda naughton play with. they have quite a groovy home page to.
Tim (ntoo)
Message no. 54
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 11:07:03 -0800
[snip my own comments about "Immortal Armor"]
>
> That'd be a neat trick, I agree, but that's not the same as SOTA armor --
> SOTA implies advancing technology, and in the field of body armor that
> means lighter materials with the same strength as older ones -- for
> example, kevlar vests replacing nylon ones, giving the same protection
> for less weight, or more protection for the same weight. However,
> introduction of a lighter vest doesn't mean the older one becomes less
> effective: the nylon vest will still stop all the attacks it did before
> the kevlar one was introduced.
>
> One way to explain it is by saying that the damage codes stay the same
> over time, but that they're relatively more powerful than older ones.
> That doesn't make much sense, though, because you'd really have to lower
> the damages of the older weapons to show this -- which comes down to much
> the same thing as increasing damage codes for more modern weapons.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Another option:
Reduce the armor rating against the newer weapons, and increase it against the
older weapons.

Against things that haven't changed (like the good old punch...oh wait, Muscle
Aug 6.1 just came out..) you'd just use the normal rating.

It would require a bit more effort, you'd need to consider the relative ages...

You know? This is pretty much just an excuse for a headache...
:)

~Tim
Message no. 55
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:28:40 GMT
Gurth writes

> Spike said on 21:33/ 3 Dec 96...
>
> > |FYI, my players are screaming bloody murder about the time and money it
> > |now takes to improve skills. (More the time than money.)
> >
> > Tell them "Tough luck!"
> >
> > Shadowrun is SUPPOSED to be a slow progression system...
>
> Skill advancement times are something I like and don't like at the same
> time :) I tend to favor the idea that you don't have to study a skill if
> you've used it in the game since last time you increased its level
> (naturally, the GM decides whether or not you used the skill enough to not
> have to study).
I recon the system in the Companion is pretty good, ok you can always
want better but someones got to invent it. What i dod like for a
change is that it is possible still to advance on your own therefore
hard though it might be it is possible for a PC to become 'the world
authority in.......' at least in theory. In two many such systems you
rappidly find that 'they don't matter, the teachers are better than
the PC's can get' or 'the PC's soon reach the limits of available
teachers and get stuck as they can never advance past the best
teacher about'. If it weren't for one or two get outs ED would suffer
from the latter [but there are some ways around the problem though
they takle advantage of ED's VERY high magic setting]

> I don't know if the Companion covers this, as I only got it this morning
Sounds like you've found a faster supplier!

> and haven't really had a chance to read it (with 209 mails from this
> list, who has the time? :)
>
Very similar to the pile here, and only about half of them were on
subject.

Folks can you keep the 'flame x to hell and back' to private mail in
future, over 50% of the last batch of mails were all about the one
guy from .aol nearly none of which were intended for anyone but him!

Mark
Message no. 56
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sr Companion
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:47:41 -0000
> Incidently while I was reading though it I notice that I recognised some
of
> the runner (oak, sasser and a few others) these are all chracter from the
> group that linda naughton play with. they have quite a groovy home page
to.
> Tim (ntoo)

So what's the address to this page?

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Message no. 57
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: SR companion
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 14:47:42 GMT
Having had more time to use it now things are looking good. The GM's
screen has been suitably modified with the new skill web. However as
Mike said he's compiling an errata list i though i'd post the things
i've noted as either, ??um.. i don't think so, the gremlins got to
(all the ones kicked out of here must of gone someplace), etc. In
some cases it a matter of, is this really the balance meant.

p21. What about physical adepts bonding weapong foci, force points
equal to magic attribute is not much help. Ok the later explanation
indicates what was meant, i assume they get 20 or 30 or something for
this (A resources and 1Myen making some nasty sized foci possible
though its not as good an idea as it looks)

The character example, Japanese is a language (specalisation cost) so
don't you get two free points in it? what about English at Int+2, the
resources in this example are two high to get steet slang free (by
SR2)

p24. The attribute boost edge should surely be 2pts /1 the same cost
as points based attributes unless this is only for non points built
characters.

p26 lightning reflexes, gives +1 reac & +1 attribute point for 2
points, it only affects initative but again half the cost of
attributes straight.

p48 'the half dot' presumably should be on the line pistols->rifles,
though the text makes it clear.

p82. At the end of the last paragraph of misfires, next to last line
it says 'good karma' surely this must be 'karma pool'?

ok, comments on p82: these are IHMO.
Having misfires on failures equal to the spells base force makes
force 1 and 2 spells hopeless, they become a leathal liability.
Having them on ones equal to sorcery skill is much more reasonable,
magicians who are inept (low sorcery) will have lots of misfires,
while the good ones won't have problems, however maniacs letting
loose with force 'oh my' spells throwing in piles of astral pool,
elemental and foci are still asking for it if the've been initiating
like mad but not buying up sorcery skill (the common gripe). Also the
low force spells being useless is directly contradictory to the
comment made in GR2 about 'welcome to the sixth world' on a magician
piling dice into a low force spell for laughable drain. Further it
kills off things like makeover (best solution i ever saw to crawling
about in sewers :) ) at force 1 a real farce.

Oh and on gradual initiation, the basic grade 0 package lists two
things that are 'add grade too' ie things that you don't actually
gain from till grade one. It does save having them tacked into grade
zero however in the explanations adding another paragraph of stuff
for folks to get confused over.
I think gradual initation rules are a good balance for low powered
campains (if there is no money for wired reflexes then masked
quickened +3D6 initative is THE game killer) however the result of
using these rules may well be even more rampant iniation as folks
race not for grade 1 (shielding, masking and masked quickened +3d6
initative) but more like grade 3 in order to get the above list of
powers still.



Overall the books good. I like the '500 underfed security dogs'
suggestion, really fun if i wasn't absolutely sure some spoilsport
would just throw a sleep spell or neurostun grenade in with them the
moment they discovered what was going on :(.

As a well practiced GM theres inevitably a lot of stuff i already do,
or have my own solutions for but theres still a lot in there.

mostly comments, i haven't found much in the way of 'out and out
errors'. Lots of references to the Universal Brotherhood though.

Mark
Message no. 58
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Sr Companion
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:05:19 -0600
Ok, I _finally_ just got this book yesterday, and I just wanted to make a
comment or two about it.

1). This is the best book I've seen out of FASA in a while. I really like
_Portfolio..._, but this just blows it out of the water.

2). Who wrote "How to Hire a Shadowrunner"? This is, hands down, the
funniest section of the entire book. I don't know if this was discussed
before I came back to the list, but the names of the posters were hilarious.

Thanks FASA, and keep the good books coming.

Mike Broadwater
"JackPalancesh@******.than.you" - the best signature in the Sr Companion
Message no. 59
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:55:08 +1100
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Adam J wrote:

> It is? I haven't ever run the two systems head to head to see which comes
> out *UGH* 'better', but I haven't noticed much difference in the two
> generation systems. If anything, the point system seems to give characters
> a slight edge.

The points give more flexibility, yes, but it seems that it takes more
than one hundred points to get what the priorities give. I've only tested
it with non-magical characters, though.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 60
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:26:22 +0100
Adam Treloar said on 18:55/27 Nov 97...

> The points give more flexibility, yes, but it seems that it takes more
> than one hundred points to get what the priorities give. I've only tested
> it with non-magical characters, though.

That can be worked out relatively easily, I think. Just compare the
entries for each of the columns with the points cost and add up the points
costs for all possible combinations, then see what total costs you get.

For example:

RACE
A: 10 points
B-E: 0 points

MAGIC
A: 20 points
B: 15 points (human), 20 points (metahuman)
C: 0 points (human), 15 points (metahuman)
D-E: 0 points

ATTRIBUTES
A: 60 points
B: 48 points
C: 40 points
D: 34 points
E: 30 points

SKILLS
A: 40 points
B: 30 points
C: 24 points
D: 20 points
E: 17 points

RESOURCES
A: 30 points (mundane), 40 points (magician)
B: 20 points (mundane), 23 points (magician)
C: 10 points (mundane), 8 points (magician)
D: 5 points (mundane), -2 points (magician)
E: 0 points (mundane), -12 points (magician)

Then add up the points for all possible combinations of the letters ABCDE,
and you're done.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 61
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:57:29 +1100
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Gurth wrote:

> Adam Treloar said on 18:55/27 Nov 97...
>
> > The points give more flexibility, yes, but it seems that it takes more
> > than one hundred points to get what the priorities give. I've only tested
> > it with non-magical characters, though.
>
> That can be worked out relatively easily, I think. Just compare the
> entries for each of the columns with the points cost and add up the points
> costs for all possible combinations, then see what total costs you get.
>
> For example:

<snip example>

Anyone good at maths? I'd do it, but my brain's fried at the moment.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 62
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:03:02 PST
>The points give more flexibility, yes, but it seems that it takes more
>than one hundred points to get what the priorities give. I've only
tested
>it with non-magical characters, though.

The only character I built was
A) attributes
B) skills
C) Cash
D) race
E) magic

This cameout Exactly the same under points:
Attributes: 60
Skills: 30
Cash: 10

Might be a special case, though- And I don't normally make 90 K nuyen
Samurai! But them, many High cash starting sams have a "advantage"
anyhow.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 63
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:13:00 GMT
on 27.11.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

[shanip!]
g> RACE
g> A: 10 points
g> B-E: 0 points

Sorry Gurth, but the point-system incorporates the more-metas rule.
So:

RACE A-C: 10 points
D,E: 0 points

<marking the day on his calendar>
I corrected Gurth!

<Jonny Bravo>
Yeay!
</Jonny Bravo>


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 64
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SR Companion
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:59:14 +0100
Tobias Berghoff said on 15:13/28 Nov 97...

> g> RACE
> g> A: 10 points
> g> B-E: 0 points
>
> Sorry Gurth, but the point-system incorporates the more-metas rule.
> So:
>
> RACE A-C: 10 points
> D,E: 0 points

As there are no priorities in the points system, either interpretation is
"right", unless, perhaps, all other C-equivalents cost 10 points.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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