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From:	Airwasp@*.com Airwasp@*.com
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:52:20 EDT

Message no. 1 Hello,

After the Sunday group here made new characters this last Sunday (grumble), a
few things came up and I thought up some ideas which I'd like to bounce off
of you guys.

-=-=-=-=-

First, when Shapeshifter's purchase their Attributes, they currently have to
spend points to buy up both sides of their Physical attributes. The option I
am thinking of is that the person buys the base stats for the Physicals in
Animal Form, then before applying Animal-type modifications, they take the
Animal-Form stats and divide them in half (round down) and those stats are
for when they are in human form. The person could the increase the
Human-form attributes up after that using edges and flaws.

So a Shifter with the following B (5), Q (6), S (6) as the base Animal stats
would have the following in Human-form: B (2), Q (3), and S (3).

-=-=-=-=-

Second, with regards to the Regeneration power. At first look it seems
rather interesting, then I began considering the descriptions of the powers
in the latest book (Forever Drug - liked it but thought the Gem of Memory as
being too powerful and hokey as a closing - the closing felt rushed IMHO).

Treat the Regeneration power as if the Shifter had an innate Heal spell
active at all times. Whenever they take damage, the Shifter rolls their
Essence with a target number as per the rules (which means 1's are failures)
and then the damage is recovered in the same method as the Heal spell does.
The Shifter does not need to worry about drain or having to concentrate on
sustaining the power either. In Animal-form the Regeneration in this style
would work normally, when in Human-form, increase the time for the damage to
go away as being twice as long.

-=-=-=-=-

Let me know what you think of these two ideas ...
-Mike B.

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:01:22 +0200

Message no. 2 According to Airwasp@***.com, at 19:52 on 3 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> Treat the Regeneration power as if the Shifter had an innate Heal spell
> active at all times. Whenever they take damage, the Shifter rolls their
> Essence with a target number as per the rules (which means 1's are failures)
> and then the damage is recovered in the same method as the Heal spell does.
> The Shifter does not need to worry about drain or having to concentrate on
> sustaining the power either. In Animal-form the Regeneration in this style
> would work normally, when in Human-form, increase the time for the damage to
> go away as being twice as long.

I've used something similar for years now, but instead of treating it as a
Heal-like spell, I let the critter roll (Essence) dice against a TN equal
to the number of boxes of damage taken (without using wound modifiers,
else it'd be too difficult) at the end of every turn. Each success removes
one box of damage; this means that a critter that has taken plenty of
damage will regenerate slowly at first, but damage will heal faster later
on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Jon Stoltenberg jjstoltenber@*******.edu
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Mon, 04 Oct 1999 12:17:29 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 3 On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Gurth wrote:

> I've used something similar for years now, but instead of treating it as a
> Heal-like spell, I let the critter roll (Essence) dice against a TN equal
> to the number of boxes of damage taken (without using wound modifiers,
> else it'd be too difficult) at the end of every turn. Each success removes
> one box of damage; this means that a critter that has taken plenty of
> damage will regenerate slowly at first, but damage will heal faster later
> on.

I use something akin to that as well, but unlike you do Gurth, I have a
set T#. My thinking on that is that having the T# based on the # of boxes
and having to get enough successes is double trouble so to say.

I could see having the regen at a set # of boxes and having to roll the
damage level or a set target# and each success rids of 1 box. But doing
both seems to penalize the player too much. If your worried about too much
power, just set the T# higher.

I will admit though that I do not use this for shifters, only vampires thus
far. I am planning on changing the way shifters are run in my game as well,
allowing them to buy powers akin to vampires but I digress.

And as always, I could just be completely wrong. I don't think I am, but I
could be wrong about that too...

Rabid Dwarf
jjstoltenber@*******.edu

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:29:30 -0500

Message no. 4 :First, when Shapeshifter's purchase their Attributes, they currently have
to
:spend points to buy up both sides of their Physical attributes. The option
I
:am thinking of is that the person buys the base stats for the Physicals in
:Animal Form, then before applying Animal-type modifications, they take the
:Animal-Form stats and divide them in half (round down) and those stats are
:for when they are in human form. The person could the increase the
:Human-form attributes up after that using edges and flaws.
:
:So a Shifter with the following B (5), Q (6), S (6) as the base Animal
stats
:would have the following in Human-form: B (2), Q (3), and S (3).

Why not just give them extra points for human attributes (if using buld
points) equal to 1/2 the points spent on animal attributes? Same effect-
thats a maximum 18 free points, which, with all thier costs, isn;t so much.
Or you could reduce the cost of a Shape Shifter's physical attributtes -
charging them 1.5 points (instead of 2) per physical attribute point would
work similarly.
What goal are you trying to achive? Should Shape Shifters have better
physical attributtes as humnas if they are have them high as animals? If it
works for you in relation to those goals, cool.
I'm not sure I get the basis for it, however. Some of the animals are
really quite different from humans, size and structure wise; there is such a
massive change, I can't see the human form having such a physiological
connection to the animal form. Sure, if one dmage and then changes, the
other has damage; but just because you are a huge, graceful., strong tiger,
doesn't mean you'd know how to re-shape into a physically impressive human.
In any case, it seems that the likely result of giving them 1/2 thier
animal attribute points in human attributtes is to (tacitly) encourage them
to buy as many 6's in animal attributes as they can. I'm not saying all
your shaper players are going to min-max, but it certainly makes sense to do
it that way, mathematically.

:Treat the Regeneration power as if the Shifter had an innate Heal spell
:active at all times. Whenever they take damage, the Shifter rolls their
:Essence with a target number as per the rules (which means 1's are
failures)
:and then the damage is recovered in the same method as the Heal spell does.
:The Shifter does not need to worry about drain or having to concentrate on
:sustaining the power either. In Animal-form the Regeneration in this style
:would work normally, when in Human-form, increase the time for the damage
to
:go away as being twice as long.

If that works for you, cool; the normal regeneration power's usefulness
probably varies greatly from game to game, so it might make sense to adjust
it to fit your own. The mechanism above seems interesting, although the
results are potentially much slower and less effective than described in
any
SR fiction were regeration is used.
If it is treated as a spell, can it be DIS-spelled (presumably before
becoming permanent)? Does the healing not take affect until the needed time
for it to become permanent is passed? Do wounds affect the TN of the test?
Does this mean that using first aid on a shape shifter would be impossible,
since they have used a "heal" spell? Is there any reason not to just have
them heal a number of boxes equal to an essence test vs tn 2 from each
injury they take? Are they not allowed to heal any more damage using
regeneration once the roll is made? Do I have any helpful comments, or just
annoying questions?

Mongoose

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:55:12 EDT

Message no. 5 In a message dated 10/4/99 5:01:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

>
> I've used something similar for years now, but instead of treating it as a
> Heal-like spell, I let the critter roll (Essence) dice against a TN equal
> to the number of boxes of damage taken (without using wound modifiers,
> else it'd be too difficult) at the end of every turn. Each success removes
> one box of damage; this means that a critter that has taken plenty of
> damage will regenerate slowly at first, but damage will heal faster later
> on.

Which is similar to one of our own house rules as well, and there is a ruling
on another website I've seen recently when I was doing searching on ideas for
optional critter variations myself.

-K (who likes running AOL via TCP/IP...)

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:38:09 +0200

Message no. 6 According to Jon Stoltenberg, at 12:17 on 4 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> I use something akin to that as well, but unlike you do Gurth, I have a
> set T#. My thinking on that is that having the T# based on the # of boxes
> and having to get enough successes is double trouble so to say.

Whatever works for you :) However, with a set TN I would apply wound
modifiers, else IMHO it gets too easy on the critter.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I would have it all if I'd only have this much
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	SR Comp Rule Options
Date:	Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:09:02 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 10/4/1999 1:02:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Why not just give them extra points for human attributes (if using buld
> points) equal to 1/2 the points spent on animal attributes? Same effect-
> thats a maximum 18 free points, which, with all thier costs, isn;t so much.
> Or you could reduce the cost of a Shape Shifter's physical attributtes -
> charging them 1.5 points (instead of 2) per physical attribute point would
> work similarly.

In theory, this is true.

> What goal are you trying to achive? Should Shape Shifters have better
> physical attributtes as humnas if they are have them high as animals? If
it
> works for you in relation to those goals, cool.

In the older rules, this was somewhat true. In the newer rules, obviously
not.

> I'm not sure I get the basis for it, however. Some of the animals are
> really quite different from humans, size and structure wise; there is such
a
> massive change, I can't see the human form having such a physiological
> connection to the animal form. Sure, if one dmage and then changes, the
> other has damage; but just because you are a huge, graceful., strong tiger,
> doesn't mean you'd know how to re-shape into a physically impressive human.

There's is *supposedly* in the fiction material, as well as the descriptions
in the sourcebooks, that Shapers are often *just* that. More physically
pronounced in some manner or form as well as both people and/or animals.

> In any case, it seems that the likely result of giving them 1/2 thier
> animal attribute points in human attributtes is to (tacitly) encourage them
> to buy as many 6's in animal attributes as they can. I'm not saying all
> your shaper players are going to min-max, but it certainly makes sense to
do
> it that way, mathematically.

Actually, it does only if you aren't willing to look in other directions.

> If that works for you, cool; the normal regeneration power's usefulness
> probably varies greatly from game to game, so it might make sense to adjust
> it to fit your own. The mechanism above seems interesting, although the
> results are potentially much slower and less effective than described in
> any SR fiction were regeration is used.

And in effect, would be far more restrictive than the disaster (and yes, that
is my end opinion of the rules as they stand) that stands in the SR3
Companion.

> If it is treated as a spell, can it be DIS-spelled (presumably before
> becoming permanent)? Does the healing not take affect until the needed
time
> for it to become permanent is passed? Do wounds affect the TN of the test?
> Does this mean that using first aid on a shape shifter would be
impossible,
> since they have used a "heal" spell? Is there any reason not to just have
> them heal a number of boxes equal to an essence test vs tn 2 from each
> injury they take? Are they not allowed to heal any more damage using
> regeneration once the roll is made? Do I have any helpful comments, or
just
> annoying questions?

As always, their annoying comments... <J/K>

But seriously, if you use the ability as an "Innate Spell" of sorts, then
yes, the ability becomes potentially targetable by outside stuff like
Dispelling. IF it remains an "Innate Ability", then that becomes something
different in th game mechanics.

-K

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