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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Thu Jun 21 11:20:01 2001
>>> <John@*****.co.uk> 06/21/01 08:56AM >>>
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
what I meant was play that stuff you have, with the rules you have, buy
the (generally) cheaper sr1 era adventures via ebay. when you've finished
playing
those, upgrade to S3 and use all the nifty stuff available for that.
its cheap, and its what i was planning to do until I got SR3 main book,
then MiTS, then, oh, you get the idea :-)
<<<<<

Ahh, I see ;] Sorry, wasn't clear.

TBH, I love some of those early modules. I've played through Mecurial twice and Gmed it 3
times. Some of the otehrs I've run multiple times for different groups. The modules
really did help give SR a "Shared World" feeling...
However, I'd suggest straight away getting SR3. TBH, if money is an issue, you don't need
Magic in the Shadows, Cannon Companion, or Man & Machine to have a
"complete" game of SR. And if they're sticking with the older modules anyways,
chances are all the gear they'll need stats for will be in the main book anyways.

The other things is, well... The flavor of Shadowrun has changed over the years. Reading
the 1st edition stuff and reading the 3rd edition stuff is very different, in tone, feel,
etc. I've been looking through some of my 1st ed books off and on the last couple months,
and I noticed this very strongly, especially looking through 1st edition. In many ways,
the game has matured, grown up. The early SR stuff was full of the raw, rough
"punk" that made up Cyberpunk, but it had a very immature quality to it. A lot
fo the writing and atmosphere was almost forced, awkward even, trying to force the game
and world of Shadowrun into the mold of what Cyberpunk was back in those days.

Now it's... Different. SR is much more in depth and more defined, and in a lot of ways,
more natural. It's like it was a teen in those days, gangly and not fully grown, and now
it's filled in some. Though to some extent, it has lost something. I'm a nostalgic at
heart, so I do notice and lament how things change. The "innocence" of youth
and childhood for Shadowrun is gone, so to speak. It doesn't have the rough and raw
quality that defined Cyberpunk in the 80's. But in it's place we have more refined, more
smooth game and game world.

Is it better? In my opinion, yes. Especially froma GM stand point. But then, all games
go through that.

Speaking of old games, here's something that thinking about SR1 brought to mind.

Have you ever noticed that old game books have a certain odor to them? Especially old
D&D books (stuff from the 70's). there's a certain fragrance that clings to any early
edition D&D product, as if all the incense and pot and weirdness of the 60's/70's that
was still lingering in the air like a purple haze back in the late 80's seeped into the
pages of the books... granted, it's probably just an effect of aging paper and ink, but
still...

You can catch this with a lot of books though. I've seen 4 SR1 Hardbacks, one of which I
own. All 4 of them had a similar smell to them. Old Paperbacks, ones 10+ years old, also
have a particular odor about them. So do new books. they're all different, but they're
there. And being a very avid reader, I guess I've picked up on these over the years.
they say that smell is one of the strongest senses connected to memories... And I guess
this further proves the "Aging effect on paper/ink" theaory... But I thought
the imagery of the "Purple Haze" was cool...

Bull

--
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Thu Jun 21 13:25:01 2001
According to Steven Ratkovich, on Thu, 21 Jun 2001 the word on the street
was...

(Bull, is there a way you can make your mailer word-wrap outgoing messages?
It's a pain having to scroll sideways for each paragraph and then back
again for the next...)

> Have you ever noticed that old game books have a certain odor to them?
> Especially old D&D books (stuff from the 70's). there's a certain
> fragrance that clings to any early edition D&D product, as if all the
> incense and pot and weirdness of the 60's/70's that was still lingering in
> the air like a purple haze back in the late 80's seeped into the pages of
> the books... granted, it's probably just an effect of aging paper and
> ink, but still...

My second edition AD&D books (not as old as the D&D ones you're talking
about, but still) have this strange smell that always reminds me of
toothpaste. For some reason, so does my SR1 hardback, but both my SR1
softbacks don't.

> You can catch this with a lot of books though. I've seen 4 SR1
> Hardbacks, one of which I own. All 4 of them had a similar smell to
> them. Old Paperbacks, ones 10+ years old, also have a particular odor
> about them. So do new books. they're all different, but they're there.

Most old books just get this second-hand-book-store smell, though; I've got
a number of 1917-18 propaganda magazines and they just smell like old books
do. Most of my game books aren't old enough to get like that yet, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Thu Jun 21 21:00:01 2001
Thanks for the clarifications and advice everyone. I bought SR3 last night;
it looks complex! Maybe i will leave some stuff out to start with, although
what I'm not sure.

*settling into lurk mode*

Jane
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Fri Jun 22 05:25:14 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Fri, 22 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> Thanks for the clarifications and advice everyone. I bought SR3 last night;
> it looks complex! Maybe i will leave some stuff out to start with, although
> what I'm not sure.

My advice would be to leave the vehicle and Matrix rules out for now, as
they complicate the basic system quite a bit; just tell anyone wanting to
play a rigger or a decker that that will have to wait until you get used to
the basic rules. Combat hasn't really changed much over the SR1 book you
had (it's just been streamlined a bit), and though the way magic is
handled is somewhat differently, it's so integral to the game that you
can't really skip over that for now :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Fri Jun 22 10:10:01 2001
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001, Jane van Roekel wrote:

> Thanks for the clarifications and advice everyone. I bought SR3 last night;
> it looks complex! Maybe i will leave some stuff out to start with, although
> what I'm not sure.

It's really not as bad as all that. In actuality, they've
streamlined much of the stuff from earlier editions of the game. In my
opinion, the game is actually easier to learn and play than SR1 was. The
only difference is that there are rules to cover a bigger variety of
situations. On the surface, this looks like more rules, but in practice
most of the rules work in a similar fashion. Once you get the hang of it,
it's quite easy.

> *settling into lurk mode*

Lurk in peace, but if you have any questions, don't hesitate to
disengage cloaking functions. :)

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
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Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Fri Jun 22 20:45:00 2001
>My advice would be to leave the vehicle and Matrix rules out for now, as
>they complicate the basic system quite a bit;

Ha! One of the players wants to play a combination decker/rigger. It was
while looking at the rules for this character that my brain started to melt
and run out my ears.

Jane
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Sat Jun 23 05:00:01 2001
On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 00:52:10 -0000 "Jane van Roekel"
<kadjari@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Ha! One of the players wants to play a combination decker/rigger. It
> was
> while looking at the rules for this character that my brain started
> to melt
> and run out my ears.

Ancient Secret GM Technique: Make it up. :)
Use the Difficulty Number Table on page 92 of SR3 to set target numbers
for what you deckers or riggers want to do. For decker tasks, add 4-6 to
the target number; their utilities reduce the target number for the
appropriate tests. For example, if a character wants to download data and
you decide that the security makes it a difficult task (normally TN 6),
you might want to add 4 so that with no utility, the decker is facing a
target number of 10. With a rating 2 Read/Write utility it becomes 8 (10
- 2 = 8); 6 with a rating 4 (10 - 4 = 6); and 4 with a rating 6 (10 - 6 4). See pages
215-219 for what tasks use what utility.

For Riggers, their Vehicle Control Rig ratings reduces the target numbers
for tests with rigged vehicles. For that reason, you may want to decide
how difficult you want a task to be for a rigger, get the target number
from the Difficulty Number Table and add about 2.

Matrix and Rigger combat is pretty much the same as the regular combat.
In the Matrix, your attack programs take the place of your guns. Your
computer skill takes the place of you pistols skill. Armor or Hardening
takes place of your ballistic or impact armor depending on the type of
attack. The deck's Bod rating and the decker's Body takes the place of
Body, again depending on the type of attack. The Hacking Pool acts like
the Combat Pool for attacks in the Matrix.

There are some other tidbits like dumpshock (page 227) and Simsense
Overload (page 226), but I think you won't have a problem leaving it out
indefinately.

Winging it can keep things moving and allow a stronger focus on story but
may disrupt suspension of disbelief if things are too easy or too
difficult.

Have fun and good luck! :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Sat Jun 23 05:55:01 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Sat, 23 Jun 2001 the word on the street
was...

> Ha! One of the players wants to play a combination decker/rigger. It was
> while looking at the rules for this character that my brain started to melt
> and run out my ears.

The rules aren't all that complicated -- not more so than those for magic,
anyway -- but if you don't have the basic rules down yet then adding these
chapters to what you have to learn already will quickly overwhelm you,
IMO. Decking is based around two or three simple premises (mainly the way
you roll tests, and how you initiate them) and the vehicle rules are mostly
expansions of the combat system, but for the moment you're going to be best
off just saying "no" :)

Once you know your way around the combat and magic rules, you can toss
a few car chases into your adventures and learn the rules for those by using
them.

As for deckers, a good way to handle them when you don't know the rules
(yet) is to treat them as NPCs. Hint to your players that some of them
might take a decker as a contact, which gives the access to the information
on the Matrix without you having to actually use the decking rules -- you
can then just decide what the decker will be able to find out, and how long
it takes (base this partly on some Etiquette rolls).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Patrick Goodman)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Sat Jun 23 11:45:00 2001
From: Jane van Roekel
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 7:52 PM

> >My advice would be to leave the vehicle and Matrix rules out for now,
> >as they complicate the basic system quite a bit;
>
> Ha! One of the players wants to play a combination decker/rigger. It
> was while looking at the rules for this character that my brain
> started to melt and run out my ears.

Just tell them "No" for right now, and explain why. Be nice. Be firm. And
if that fails, show them the puddle of molten brains. That gets them almost
every time....
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Sat Jun 23 17:50:01 2001
From: Jane van Roekel
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 7:52 PM

>> >My advice would be to leave the vehicle and Matrix rules out for now,
>> >as they complicate the basic system quite a bit;
>>
>> Ha! One of the players wants to play a combination decker/rigger. It
>> was while looking at the rules for this character that my brain
>> started to melt and run out my ears.

>Just tell them "No" for right now, and explain why. Be nice. Be firm.
And
>if that fails, show them the puddle of molten brains. That gets them
almost
>every time....


So THAT'S what I stepped in at my our first gaming session...


EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"What? Somebody blows thier nose and you wanna keep it?"
--Dr. Peter Venkmen
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Reeve)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Wed Jun 27 12:00:01 2001
Gurth says, on June 23rd...<<The rules aren't all that complicated -- not
more so than those for magic,
anyway -- but if you don't have the basic rules down yet then adding these
chapters to what you have to learn already will quickly overwhelm you,
IMO. Decking is based around two or three simple premises (mainly the way
you roll tests, and how you initiate them) and the vehicle rules are mostly
expansions of the combat system, but for the moment you're going to be best
off just saying "no" :)>


I know you people don't know me from spit, as I believe this is my first
post, but I tend to agree about the decker thing. The rules and rolls can
quickly become too complicated and involved for continuity. (sp?) And as
for decker/rigger, a guy play with made one once, as an experiment. It's
possible to make one that can do both, if you're willing to let him make
like a 200 point character. ;)

Bishop




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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Wed Jun 27 13:40:04 2001
According to David Reeve, on Wed, 27 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> I know you people don't know me from spit, as I believe this is my first
> post

You say that as if you expect us to tell you to shut up because we don't
know you... AFAIC, far from it: the list needs more active contributors, so
the more lurkers give up that habit, the better :)

> but I tend to agree about the decker thing. The rules and rolls can
> quickly become too complicated and involved for continuity. (sp?) And as
> for decker/rigger, a guy play with made one once, as an experiment. It's
> possible to make one that can do both, if you're willing to let him make
> like a 200 point character. ;)

I think you can fairly easily make a decker/rigger using the standard
rules (with either the priority system or 120 BPs), but you'll end up with a
character who can't do _anything_ but deck and rig. You'll probably spend
a few hundred thousand on cyberware, slightly more on vehicles, and the
same on a cyberdeck and the necessary software, leaving you with very
little to buy other gear from. It'll be the skill points where you'll
really feel the drawbacks of this kind of character, though, as I suspect
you'll spend most on "necessary" skills like Computer and various vehicle
and B/R skills, with very few points left over for things like combat and
social skills.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Reeve)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Wed Jun 27 14:25:00 2001
Gurth:
You say that as if you expect us to tell you to shut up because we don't
know you... AFAIC, far from it: the list needs more active contributors, so
the more lurkers give up that habit, the better :)

Umm..thanks. :)

I think you can fairly easily make a decker/rigger using the standard
rules (with either the priority system or 120 BPs), but you'll end up with a
character who can't do _anything_ but deck and rig. You'll probably spend
a few hundred thousand on cyberware, slightly more on vehicles, and the
same on a cyberdeck and the necessary software, leaving you with very
little to buy other gear from. It'll be the skill points where you'll
really feel the drawbacks of this kind of character, though, as I suspect
you'll spend most on "necessary" skills like Computer and various vehicle
and B/R skills, with very few points left over for things like combat and
social skills.

--
I need learn specify. :) Thanks, Gurth, that's closer to what I was
trying to say.


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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Wed Jun 27 15:35:04 2001
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:09:58 +0200
Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>...
I suspect
> you'll spend most on "necessary" skills like Computer and
> various vehicle
> and B/R skills, with very few points left over for things
> like combat and
> social skills.

That's OK, any fresh kid who spent his whole youth being a
half-assed conmpetant rigger and decker wouldn't have 'got
out much'. --Anders
PS. Isn't it interesting that as soon as I do the list from
the office I start commenting like mad?
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Wed Jun 27 20:10:01 2001
<snip>

>I think you can fairly easily make a decker/rigger using the standard
>rules (with either the priority system or 120 BPs), but you'll end up with
a
>character who can't do _anything_ but deck and rig. You'll probably spend
>a few hundred thousand on cyberware, slightly more on vehicles, and the
>same on a cyberdeck and the necessary software, leaving you with very
>little to buy other gear from. It'll be the skill points where you'll
>really feel the drawbacks of this kind of character, though, as I suspect
>you'll spend most on "necessary" skills like Computer and various vehicle
>and B/R skills, with very few points left over for things like combat and
>social skills.

Combat? That's why I have the drones!
Social skills? That's why I have the team!

In all seriousness, It's best to stick with one character type. Otherwise
things then to get out of hand. Quickly, I might add.


EMFA John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"Why haven't we tried this?"
"Because it didn't work in practice."
"This is practice. The real thing's tomorrow."
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Euphonium)
Subject: SR Editions (was Re: Melee Combat)
Date: Thu Jun 28 01:20:01 2001
Whilest lurking behind a rock I heard Gurth say


> the more lurkers give up that habit, the better :)

[checks armoured jacket, hesitates nervously, then cautiously breaks cover]

> I think you can fairly easily make a decker/rigger using the standard
> rules (with either the priority system or 120 BPs), but you'll end up with
a
> character who can't do _anything_ but deck and rig. You'll probably spend
> a few hundred thousand on cyberware, slightly more on vehicles, and the
> same on a cyberdeck and the necessary software, leaving you with very
> little to buy other gear from. It'll be the skill points where you'll
> really feel the drawbacks of this kind of character, though, as I suspect
> you'll spend most on "necessary" skills like Computer and various vehicle
> and B/R skills, with very few points left over for things like combat and
> social skills.

When one of my PCs put together a starting rigger-decker, she got the extra
skill points by setting resources lower, and started without a deck. After
all, when you go AWOL on your corp, you don't get to take everything with
you, and she thought the armoured Bulldog from the motor pool was more
important. (the PC joined the campaign when the corp facility she was
assigned to was raided by a runner group that included her "died in a road
accident" brother, now the team's mage.) It meant that it was three or
four runs before she aquired a deck as loot, but gave us time to get the
rigger rules sorted out before diving into the deck rules, as she is the 1st
decker I've had to GM for.

>>>>>[I used to be against the idea of Mind-Control Lasers, but now I can't
imagine how I ever lived without them]<<<<<

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