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Message no. 1
From: Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:08:35 -0700
In response to your question about the ethics of Shadowrun,

My runners will not accept any job until they have every piece of info
the Johnson can give them- location, type of work, expected security,
color of paint, etc... If the Johnson refuses any information until
the runners agree, they walk out. You want to know how many times the
evening we were scheduled to play Shadowrun turns into half an hour?

And then the group (or at least some unscrupulous ones in it) like to
lay in large elaborate /explosive/ traps for Lonestar patrols. And
then, when the cops scrag them later for killing cops, they look at me
and say that the game isn't fun anymore and they're going home! WTF?!?
(Apparently they expect to get away scot-free after something like
that...)

AND ON THAT NOTE... I am compiling a list of Munchkinish behaviors,
and would like the help of the denizens of this list. Anyone care to
list some of those behaviors, please privately email me. (I can then
post that list to the list if people want. Let me know privately).

Zeb
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:06:48 -0400
Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> said:
>
> In response to your question about the ethics of Shadowrun,
>
> My runners will not accept any job until they have every piece of info
> the Johnson can give them- location, type of work, expected security,
> color of paint, etc... If the Johnson refuses any information until
> the runners agree, they walk out. You want to know how many times the
> evening we were scheduled to play Shadowrun turns into half an hour?

The characters have unrealistic expectations given the Shadowrun genre.

Sounds like you don't run a money-hungry game. If they can't aford their
lifestyles because they turn down jobs, they're going to end up in the
gutter. And if they turn down a few, people won't bother looking for
them. Eventually they'll have to beg for work.

Better yet, have the Johnson be prepared. Any Johnson that does his
homework will know the basics of how the group operates. A smart Johnson
will tell them everything they want to hear. His answers may be wrong,
but they might satisfy the group.

> And then the group (or at least some unscrupulous ones in it) like to
> lay in large elaborate /explosive/ traps for Lonestar patrols. And
> then, when the cops scrag them later for killing cops, they look at me
> and say that the game isn't fun anymore and they're going home! WTF?!?
> (Apparently they expect to get away scot-free after something like
> that...)

Sounds like they have a D&D mentality, and consider cops to be the bad
guys. Do they loot the bodies of the cops and ask for experience later?
Try and execute all their current characters as cop killers, and have them
make a new set. But make sure there's a trial where the unscrupulous ones
are pointed out. Maybe your smarter players will be able to keep the
unscrupulous ones in check. It isn't smart to run with sociopathic cop
killers.

You could also keep the power level of the game low enough that they
simply can't blow up cops for fun.

> AND ON THAT NOTE... I am compiling a list of Munchkinish behaviors,
> and would like the help of the denizens of this list. Anyone care to
> list some of those behaviors, please privately email me. (I can then
> post that list to the list if people want. Let me know privately).

I don't know, I think I'd like to see that stuff posted to the list.
Just in case I see myself in the examples.

Here's a few items:

1) Cold blooded killers. Munchkins look on cops, sec guards, and even
normals as obstacles, and kill them with impunity.

2) Retribution. They dish it out all the time, but they never expect
it, because they don't think of people as people (with friends and
loved ones who want to see justice).

3) Treasure. Munchkins loot everything. They take weapons, armor,
money, vehicles, and anything else that isn't nailed down. And they
expect to sell their treasure at retail prices without having anyone
ask any questions.

4) Creative rules interpretation. They may not "notice" rules that
impose limits, or they may interpret them for their own benefit.

5) The numbers don't add up, AKA cheating. They roll their dice out
of your view and get unrealistic results, they've spent more Karma
than you've given out, or they always have enough money to do whatever
they want.

6) They want to be the best. They want the biggest gun and the best
armor, and they want everyone to know that they have the biggest gun
and the best armor.

7) Lost touch with reality. They expect things HAVE to go their way.
Beautiful women WILL sleep with them because they have a high Charisma,
the bad guys WILL break under torture and tell them everything, and
they will NEVER die.

8) Losing isn't an option. They have to win all the time (and get
paid a lot of money).

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it can all be boiled down to a single item.

*) Reality doesn't apply to me. I can do whatever I want to win.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Netadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 3
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:46:36 -0400
Brian Moore wrote:
>
> I think it can all be boiled down to a single item.
>
> *) Reality doesn't apply to me. I can do whatever I want to win.

Or, even more generically (and this isn't mine; it's wandered in and out
of the list various times):

*) A munchkin believes it's possible to WIN a role-playing game.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:39:35 -0400
Brian Moore wrote:
>
> Zebulin Magby <zebulingod@*****.com> said:
> > In response to your question about the ethics of Shadowrun,
> >
> > My runners will not accept any job until they have every piece of info
> > the Johnson can give them- location, type of work, expected security,
> > color of paint, etc... If the Johnson refuses any information until
> > the runners agree, they walk out. You want to know how many times the
> > evening we were scheduled to play Shadowrun turns into half an hour?
>
> The characters have unrealistic expectations given the Shadowrun genre.
>
> Sounds like you don't run a money-hungry game. If they can't aford their
> lifestyles because they turn down jobs, they're going to end up in the
> gutter. And if they turn down a few, people won't bother looking for
> them. Eventually they'll have to beg for work.
>
> Better yet, have the Johnson be prepared. Any Johnson that does his
> homework will know the basics of how the group operates. A smart Johnson
> will tell them everything they want to hear. His answers may be wrong,
> but they might satisfy the group.

Gah. Sorry about all of the quoted text, but I couldn't decide what
to snip :) So, our upcoming game here (Steve Eley's, that is, for anyone who's
heard his comments about it) is about a bunch of ordinary 2060's citizens
who discover - for reasons unknown to them - that someone (or some group)
has erased each of their identities or, in some cases, faked their deaths.
We've only done preludes so far, so we don't have many details, but looking
at the life of a shadowrunner from a non-shadowrunner's perspective has
made me wonder a few things.
Like, for instance, why are runners and Johnsons always trying to
screw each other over?
My character's a businessman, so he understands that people will
take advantge of each other in a deal if they stand to gain by it, and
that'll certainly lead to caution (" 'Half now, half later'? Admirable
principle, but let's be more concrete, shall we? We'll accept half now.
The rest goes into escrow with the First Security Bank of the Cayman Islands.
*extends pocket secretary* Your terminal or mine?") but runners ought to
remember that Johnsons will only double-cross them if they can make a
profit on it. Make it worth their while to deal straight, and they will.
I doubt they're out their just to get their jollies by messing with
runners' heads. (At the same time, /Gamemasters/ need to remember the
same thing. Before the Johnson pulls a fast one, think about WHY they're
doing it, and what they hope to gain.)

"Okay, Mr. Johnson. There are two ways we can do this. You can
give us the bare minimum details necessary to complete your job if
nothing unexpected happens, and we'll do precisely what you told us to...
and if that turns out to not be what you WANTED us to do, that's your
problem. Or you can tell us what you're trying to accomplish, and when
the unpredictable inevitably happens, we'll change plans to keep your
goals in mind. Your choice. Which'll it be?"


--Sean
Message no. 5
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:26:50 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> "Okay, Mr. Johnson. There are two ways we can do this. You can
> give us the bare minimum details necessary to complete your job if
> nothing unexpected happens, and we'll do precisely what you told us to...
> and if that turns out to not be what you WANTED us to do, that's your
> problem. Or you can tell us what you're trying to accomplish, and when
> the unpredictable inevitably happens, we'll change plans to keep your
> goals in mind. Your choice. Which'll it be?"

"The first. My goals are my own business, and I can't trust them to
unaffiliated assets who may leak them to other sources. Even if you frag
this up, you're likely to do more damage to the target than to MY
interests, and that's all that's important to the bottom line. You're
shadowrunners. Nothing more. Slime from the street, not to be trusted
until proven otherwise. We don't expect you to act PROPERLY, gentlemen;
we simply expect you to ACT."


That's the typical answer in a Johnson's thoughts (though he'd never say
it out loud) in a typical ground-level shadowrun. Granted, it's all
subject to the run itself, and you could certainly *earn* trust and build
stronger relationships with specific factions, but in the beginning
they're not going to tell you any more than the minimum they can get away
with, and their expectations will be quite low. That's just good business
sense.

Otherwise, no argument with your post. >8-> You're certainly right that
a Johnson would have to have a very good reason to double-cross th
runners, and he'd know that if the runners survived he'd have a hard time
hiring in the same city.

If you want to see it sometime, my absolute favorite account of a
double-(or triple-)crossing of a runner is the Shadowtalk about Lofwyr in
_Threats_. Now THAT job was SMOOTH! (_The Usual Suspects_ would come in
a close second.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 6
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:29:44 -0500
----------
> From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
>
> Otherwise, no argument with your post. >8-> You're certainly right
that
> a Johnson would have to have a very good reason to double-cross th
> runners, and he'd know that if the runners survived he'd have a hard
time
> hiring in the same city.

Great reason to buy one of those camera eyes, eh?

"Say 'Cheese', Mr. Johnson! Ok, we now have your picture, and, judging
from how slack Lenny has just gone, I figure he's uploading your image
into our safe deposit box of Johnsons that _might_ screw us over. If we
get screwed over, every fact about you that Lenny gathered in the past few
minutes, for your scent (courtesy of his spectrometer), the sound of your
voice and the expression on your face and the way you walk, will be
released to the shadow community at large, with big blazing letter that
say 'Liar, cheat, double-crosser, and child-molester (that last may or may
not be true, but who knows?)', along with the circumstances of our death.
If we're not screwed, or die of incompetence, it doesn't go out. Sleep
well, and its been a pleasure doing business with you."

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
I am a rovin' sportin' blade
they call me Jack of all Trades
I always found my chief delight
in courting pretty fair maids.
-"The Dublin Jack of All Trades"
Message no. 7
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:46:52 +0200
And so it came to happen that Nexx wrote:
----------
<snipped S. Eley's reply>
> "Say 'Cheese', Mr. Johnson! Ok, we now have your picture, and,
judging
> from how slack Lenny has just gone, I figure he's uploading your image
> into our safe deposit box of Johnsons that _might_ screw us over. If we
> get screwed over, every fact about you that Lenny gathered in the past
few
> minutes, for your scent (courtesy of his spectrometer), the sound of your
> voice and the expression on your face and the way you walk, will be
> released to the shadow community at large, with big blazing letter that
> say 'Liar, cheat, double-crosser, and child-molester (that last may or
may
> not be true, but who knows?)', along with the circumstances of our death.
> If we're not screwed, or die of incompetence, it doesn't go out. Sleep
> well, and its been a pleasure doing business with you."

" Ah, what cunning associates we have here. As it is quite a risky
buisiness you need to do for my companions, I prefer to let another group
do the work. Thank you for you're time, sorry that we did not come to an
agreement.
"Ah, before I forgot, be sure that I will inform all of my partners
about you're 'buisiness behavior'. I do think they all will think twice
before offering you an oportunity as it seems your qualities are in a
different category than they need. Good eveening."

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:33:38 -0400
At 02:06 PM 9/21/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> My runners will not accept any job until they have every piece of info
>> the Johnson can give them- location, type of work, expected security,
>> color of paint, etc... If the Johnson refuses any information until
>> the runners agree, they walk out. You want to know how many times the
>> evening we were scheduled to play Shadowrun turns into half an hour?

That is mind-blowingly lazy on the part of the player's. No Mr. Johnson
worth the name is going to tell them *everything* he knows. It's not his
job to do the groundwork and the research, that's in part what he's paying
for. If I were to have a Johnson give out that kind of info, the pay scale
would drop dramatically. "Look, I've given you a detailed map of the
entire premises, patrol schedules and codes for all the doors. And you
still want 100K? Sorry, no dice. I'm a businessman, so I think I'll go
find someone a bit more reasonable to deal conduct business with."

That is just so easy to play too, from a GM's perspective. It'll certainly
piss off the players, but there is NO reason why the Johnson (or even their
own contacts) has to tell the truth. Or especially in the case of their
contacts, thier version of the truth might not match with the GM's (i.e.
world's God and Ultimate Arbiter of Truth within the Game) truth.

Think about it, we misunderstand each other all the damn time here on RN.
We all take away from postings our own perceptions of truth and what the
author said and intended. No reason why the contacts and other people
in-game shouldn't suffer from the same problem. Johhny Rotten the Fixer
might honestly believe that Cross Applied Technology is hiring the runners
to hit Ares. But the GM's truth may be the exact opposite, or other
players may be involved. Who knows?

>Sounds like you don't run a money-hungry game. If they can't aford their
>lifestyles because they turn down jobs, they're going to end up in the
>gutter. And if they turn down a few, people won't bother looking for
>them. Eventually they'll have to beg for work.

True enough. Sometimes you do have to appeal to other interests however.
If they have family, if they morals and ethics, that sort of thing.

>Better yet, have the Johnson be prepared. Any Johnson that does his
>homework will know the basics of how the group operates. A smart Johnson
>will tell them everything they want to hear. His answers may be wrong,
>but they might satisfy the group.

Exactly what I was saying before. This is especially true if you recyle
certain Johnsons and Fixers.

>You could also keep the power level of the game low enough that they
>simply can't blow up cops for fun.

Or strangely enough, up the power level so that a) cop killing simply isn't
important anymore and/or b) you can use *really* big hammers when the
runners get stupid (a great dragon is a big hammer that can be used in epic
games far better than in street level games).

>2) Retribution. They dish it out all the time, but they never expect
>it, because they don't think of people as people (with friends and
>loved ones who want to see justice).

This was a lesson Mike taught me painfully well. I still hate you for that
TGC! :-P

But it was a lesson well learned. Probably the turning point, years ago,
for me and how I view gaming and the world within the games. But it still
sucks what happened.

>4) Creative rules interpretation. They may not "notice" rules that
>impose limits, or they may interpret them for their own benefit.

Funnily enough, they are often rules lawyers too. On the one hand, a clear
concrete rule may be inviolate to them, but any rule with any ambiguity is
fresh meat and will be twisted and altered any which way including loose.

>6) They want to be the best. They want the biggest gun and the best
>armor, and they want everyone to know that they have the biggest gun
>and the best armor.

Not necessarily munchkin. In real life, I want the best stereo. I want
the best car alarm. I want the best TV, computer, bed, et. al. And
sometimes I want people to know that I have the best of the best of
something. In this case, it's all about context.

>*) Reality doesn't apply to me. I can do whatever I want to win.

Huh. Sound like any real-world athletes to you? Yup yup...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 9
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:50:34 -0500
----------
> From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>

<snip getting info on the Johnson>

> " Ah, what cunning associates we have here. As it is quite a risky
> buisiness you need to do for my companions, I prefer to let another
group
> do the work. Thank you for you're time, sorry that we did not come to an
> agreement.
> "Ah, before I forgot, be sure that I will inform all of my partners
> about you're 'buisiness behavior'. I do think they all will think twice
> before offering you an oportunity as it seems your qualities are in a
> different category than they need. Good eveening."

That's why you do it after you get the advance, silly <g>

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
I am a rovin' sportin' blade
they call me Jack of all Trades
I always found my chief delight
in courting pretty fair maids.
-"The Dublin Jack of All Trades"
Message no. 10
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: [SR] Ethical Shadowrunners + Munchkin behavior list
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:34:52 -0700
:Great reason to buy one of those camera eyes, eh?
:
: "Say 'Cheese', Mr. Johnson! Ok, we now have your picture, and,
judging
:from how slack Lenny has just gone, I figure he's uploading your image
:into our safe deposit box of Johnsons that _might_ screw us over. If we
:get screwed over, every fact about you that Lenny gathered in the past
few
:minutes, for your scent (courtesy of his spectrometer), the sound of your
:voice and the expression on your face and the way you walk, will be
:released to the shadow community at large, with big blazing letter that
:say 'Liar, cheat, double-crosser, and child-molester (that last may or
may
:not be true, but who knows?)', along with the circumstances of our death.
:If we're not screwed, or die of incompetence, it doesn't go out. Sleep
:well, and its been a pleasure doing business with you."



Johnson: "Ah. In that case, my corporation authorizes me to forbid all
future relations with all of you, due to the inherently unstable and
reversible nature of relations with deniable assets. A similar file on
you will be forwarded to the 'Johnsonet'. Or not. You'll only know when
you try to get work; if it has, I hope for your sake, you can not get any.
God day, good bye, good riddance."

Johnson's ARE runners, only corporate retained. Goose and gander, yah
know?

Further Reading

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