Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: SR: FAB Question
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:03:08 -0500
Hi there. This is probably the first of four messages you'll be getting
from members of the ShadowRN mailing list (this message is being posted to
the ShadowRN mailing list as well as to you). We've been having a week-long
discussion about Fat Bacteria from the Corporate Security Handbook and we've
come up with a few different theories about how FAB works (or doesn't work).

It all started when someone posted a question about a character having a
club filled with FAB and using the club to attack an astral mage (caught in
a FAB-Net). In the days that followed, dozens and dozens of messages were
posted regarding this, bringing up newer questions.

I think the questions we'd like answered are:

What happens when a motionless astral being standing on the Earth has a
non-magical living physical object (with an aura) placed on top of him?
Would the object's physical component be affected by gravity and pass
through the astral being? Would the aura of the astral being interact with
the aura of the object and the object appear to float in the physical plane?
Would the object's aura push the astral being out of the way?

Would swinging a club filled with FAB do any damage to a purely astral being?

Could an astral being, covered by a FAB-Net, attempt to untangle the net?

Is FAB astrally active? Is FAB dual-natured? Is FAB mundane?

And can we get an answer on Dybbuk's question in CorpSec (p 40): "If
somebody astral can't move or pass through something with physical mass, how
can an astral being travel through air filled with any bacteria?"

A few members of the ShadowRN list [myself included] will be sending you our
theories on this. We'd appreciate your time in reviewing them, then
answering the above questions.

Thanks,

Thomas Deeny
Message no. 2
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:29:08 PDT
HYPOTHESIS:Auras can intersect with no apparent effect, but how far
they can do so is unclear.

PROOF:In the description of the "Death Touch" spell, it says that the
aura extends outward from the body. This is also implied (If not
actually stated) where it says that armor and clothing applies no
penalty to casting a ranged spell on them.

Now, shake hands with someone. According to some rules in SR, your
auras are intersecting. Feel anything?
Message no. 3
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:48:06 -0500 (EST)
>What happens when a motionless astral being standing on the Earth has a
>non-magical living physical object (with an aura) placed on top of him?
>Would the object's physical component be affected by gravity and pass
>through the astral being? Would the aura of the astral being interact with
>the aura of the object and the object appear to float in the physical plane?
>Would the object's aura push the astral being out of the way?
>

I always assumed that while an astral presence doesn't have physical mass,
it does have a mass on the astral plane, otherwise, two astral beings would
never be able to touch each other. I would assume, then, that an astral
form (i.e. a magician's astral body) COULD be affected by having something
dropped on him. It wouldn't pass through the astral being, nor would the
astral being change shape as has been mentioned. Also, I think the
interaction would be determined by the force of the object hitting/falling
on him. If he get's something the size and weight of a safe droopped on him
that is alive and has an aura, then I would say that he is gonna get hurt.
I wouldn't make it Physical damage, but stun. I don't have a whole lot of
logical mumbo jumbo to go off of, it's just that that is the way I always
interpreted the rules.


>Would swinging a club filled with FAB do any damage to a purely astral being?
>

Same as above. I think you have something that can interact withthe astral
plane conecting with something else in the astral plane. I would go wioth
stun damage on that once again, mostly to avoid abuse by players... I like
to moderate things. Never give the PC's too much power...:)

>Could an astral being, covered by a FAB-Net, attempt to untangle the net?
>

No, unless there was an opening somewhere that was big enough to squezze
through. While the net has both an astral presence and a physical
presence, the astral being has no physical presence, and so is unable to
affect the physical presence of the net. It's the same spirits can't hurt
the physical world without manifesting. I think the key to this argument is
where you have presence...

>Is FAB astrally active? Is FAB dual-natured? Is FAB mundane?
>

Starin III is apparently astrally active, but not the normal versions. Nor
is it dual natured. It is mundanbe, yet is a living object, and as such has
an astral presence, even though it ois not active. I believe astrally
active, in function, dicribes a link in something or someone that allows
them to interact in some way with both worlds. This applies to dual natured
beings as well. Does that make sense? I can';t explain that any better at
the moment.


>And can we get an answer on Dybbuk's question in CorpSec (p 40): "If
>somebody astral can't move or pass through something with physical mass, how
>can an astral being travel through air filled with any bacteria?"
>

Ok, Here's my thoughts on that as well... FAB bac is a VERY thick and
clumpy substance. It literally fills the air so thick that you can't pass
through. Imagine an astral form (a mages astral body) as a screen or sieve.
Normal air with normal bacteria, which is very loose and very small is like
a liquid, which will flow right around a sieve. Fat Bac is more like
geletin... It's not quite a solid, yet is more rigid than liquid. Jello
WILL sit in a sieve...



AH well, that was muy inane thoughts and ramblings, hope y'all can
understand them...



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Stay Cool, Stay Paranoid
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 96 15:27:25 +1100
>HYPOTHESIS:Auras can intersect with no apparent effect, but how far
>they can do so is unclear.
>
>PROOF:In the description of the "Death Touch" spell, it says that the
>aura extends outward from the body. This is also implied (If not
>actually stated) where it says that armor and clothing applies no
>penalty to casting a ranged spell on them.
>
>Now, shake hands with someone. According to some rules in SR, your
>auras are intersecting. Feel anything?

No... but if I try to shake hands with a purely astral being (say, by
using Astral Perception), I'm going to knock the astral being away. If I
could pin the astral being, then I can try to force intersection.

NEW HYPOTHESIS: Auras of physical beings can intersect, no worries. Auras
of Astral beings intersect causing damage (this is how Astral combat
works). Auras of physical and astral beings can only intersect under
special circumstances and as a last resort, and what happens is an
undescribed action known as metathesis

--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 5
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:44:08 -0500
At 03:27 PM 9/7/96 +1100, you wrote:
[snipped the debate starting up again]

Okay, formulate your ideas send them off to FASAMike@***.com With any
luck, he'll send a reply back to us within the week (or even join us on the
list - it is after GEN-CON).

And for a laugh, check out this quote from the GM Info section of the
CorpSecHandbook:

"Fat Bacteria adds a significant level of conceptual difficulty to the
Shadowrun game..."

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 6
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:44:12 -0500
At 09:48 PM 9/6/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>What happens when a motionless astral being standing on the Earth has a
>>non-magical living physical object (with an aura) placed on top of him?

>I always assumed that while an astral presence doesn't have physical mass,
>it does have a mass on the astral plane, otherwise, two astral beings would
>never be able to touch each other. I would assume, then, that an astral
>form (i.e. a magician's astral body) COULD be affected by having something
>dropped on him.

But the question posed is a non-magical living physical thing affecting a
purely astral thing.

[snip]
>If he get's something the size and weight of a safe droopped on him
>that is alive and has an aura, then I would say that he is gonna get hurt.
>I wouldn't make it Physical damage, but stun. I don't have a whole lot of
>logical mumbo jumbo to go off of, it's just that that is the way I always
>interpreted the rules.

But the rules for Astral Combat in the SR2 book states that "things that do
not have an active astral presence cannot fight or be hurt in any way in
astral space." I infer from that a mundane object cannot deal damage or be
dealt damage by a purely astral entity. So how can the safe-sized mundane
object damage an astral being by falling on it? I see this as the reason
why mundane objects with auras cannot do damage to an astral object.
-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"We were told to turn it down, stuff got broken, and everyone got naked. It
was a successful party."
-Marcus "DoubleDaves will have to name one of their stores after me" Drew.
Message no. 7
From: ThDMeyer@***.com
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:19:51 -0400
I think you should consider forwarding the questions to FASAInfo, as FASAMike
doesn't really seem to check his PM box regularly. Lest it might take
forever.

Thorsten.
Message no. 8
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:54:19 -0500 (EST)
Thomas Denny wrote in reply to me (Steven Ratkovich)
>
>But the rules for Astral Combat in the SR2 book states that "things that do
>not have an active astral presence cannot fight or be hurt in any way in
>astral space." I infer from that a mundane object cannot deal damage or be
>dealt damage by a purely astral entity. So how can the safe-sized mundane
>object damage an astral being by falling on it? I see this as the reason
>why mundane objects with auras cannot do damage to an astral object.
>-Thomas Deeny
>
>

Ok, that was just my personal take on the matter, and I do stand
corrected... I think the entire problem with this whole discussion is that
we are dealing with a fictional place atthat hasn't been fully explained.
I'm still learning about the magic portion of the game, even though I've
been GM'ing for about 6 months. So I guess what you need to do is figure
out exactly WHAT astral space is. Everyone has a different take on it, and
until the time FASA puts out a defibnitive guide for Astral Space, I think
these arguments and disagreements will continue. Here are a few of my own
questions to ponder... You don't have top answer them, just think about them...

"What laws of Physics, if any, don't exist in astral space? Are any LoP
different?"

"Where is astral space in relationship to the 'real' world? Is it another
dimension? Just another state of being that can't normally be detected
(similar to ultraviolet light) or is it something completely different?"

"How does one actually travel to Astral Space? (Other than Astral
Projectiion. How does this work, specifically?)"

"If certain Laws and Standards ARE different in Astral Space, how is it that
a dual natured creature doesn't get torn apart, orw whatever?"

Those, boys and girls, are just a few things to ponder on that subject...
Also, as has been noted before, try not to be too technical ot difficult
with it. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and it IS Science Fantasy,
not Science Fiction. That's not a flame, guys, just my personal concept of it.
Well, take it easy, and avoid skinny dudes with face paint....

"Nope, I don't hear ya talkin' in my head, George. Nope, I sure don't."
-Bubba, a former hick....



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Stay Cool, Stay Paranoid
Message no. 9
From: lobo1@****.com (John E Pederson)
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:52:07 PST
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:54:19 -0500 (EST) chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich) writes:
>Thomas Denny wrote in reply to me (Steven Ratkovich)
>>
>>But the rules for Astral Combat in the SR2 book states that "things
>that do
>>not have an active astral presence cannot fight or be hurt in any way
>in
>>astral space." I infer from that a mundane object cannot deal damage
>or be
>>dealt damage by a purely astral entity. So how can the safe-sized
>mundane
>>object damage an astral being by falling on it? I see this as the
>reason
>>why mundane objects with auras cannot do damage to an astral object.
>>-Thomas Deeny
>>
>>
>
>Ok, that was just my personal take on the matter, and I do stand
corrected...
>I think the entire problem with this whole discussion is that
>we are dealing with a fictional place atthat hasn't been fully
explained.
>I'm still learning about the magic portion of the game, even though I've
>been GM'ing for about 6 months. So I guess what you need to do is
figure
>out exactly WHAT astral space is. Everyone has a different take on it,
and
>until the time FASA puts out a defibnitive guide for Astral Space, I
think
>these arguments and disagreements will continue. Here are a few of my
own
>questions to ponder... You don't have top answer them, just think about
>them...
>"What laws of Physics, if any, don't exist in astral space? Are any LoP
>different?"

First, physics doesn't apply to astral space. It's really a region more
related to the mind or soul than to the physical body-in a sense, a
purely astral being can do pretty much anything it can dream up.

>"Where is astral space in relationship to the 'real' world? Is it
>another dimension? Just another state of being that can't normally be
>detected (similar to ultraviolet light) or is it something completely
>different?"

I think calling it an intersecting dimension is best. In truth, the
etheric plane, and the metaplanes, I think, are really in the same
spatial area as the mundane plane. The difference is how astral space
works-it's based more in emotion and thought than reason and logic. I'm
not sure on this-like you said, just my take on things.

>"How does one actually travel to Astral Space? (Other than Astral
>Projectiion. How does this work, specifically?)"

If you're speaking bodily traveling into astral space, it may not be
possible under most circumstances, but it would require some sort of gateway, and then,
I'd bet, you'd probably have to play by the rules of both
mundane and astral planes, because you'd still have a phsyical body.

>"If certain Laws and Standards ARE different in Astral Space, how is
>it that a dual natured creature doesn't get torn apart, orw whatever?"

Imagine mundane space as a geometric plane. Now imagine a series of
other planes, representing the planes of astral space, laid over top of
the first and each other, in such a way that they remain separate, but
touching, or crossing. Everything in the mundane world exists in both
mundane and etheric planes, the reason that a dual-natured being, or an
astrally perceiving mage, doesn't get ripped apart is that they already
exist on that second plane. Or something like that.

>Those, boys and girls, are just a few things to ponder on that
subject...
>Also, as has been noted before, try not to be too technical ot difficult
>with it. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and it IS Science
Fantasy,
>not Science Fiction. That's not a flame, guys, just my personal
conceptof
>it.

Hope that wasn't too much at once.

>Well, take it easy, and avoid skinny dudes with face paint....
>
>"Nope, I don't hear ya talkin' in my head, George. Nope, I sure
>don't."
> -Bubba, a former hick....
>
>
>
>Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
>Stay Cool, Stay Paranoid

________________________________________________________________
/ \
| The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving |
| memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even |
| myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes |
| again. |
| |
| John "Lobo" Pederson, lobo1@****.com |
| http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm |
\________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 10
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:58:23 -0500 (EST)
>"Nope, I don't hear ya talkin' in my head, George. Nope, I sure don't."
> -Bubba, a former hick....
THAT NEVER HAPPENED!!
Message no. 11
From: freak@*****.com (Brian)
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:46:45 -0500 (EST)
>>"Nope, I don't hear ya talkin' in my head, George. Nope, I sure don't."
>> -Bubba, a former hick....
>THAT NEVER HAPPENED!!
>
>
>
sure it did i was there ;)



This is a test of the Emergency Freaking system.....
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKKK
KKKKKKKK



CHUMP!!!!!
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 96 21:29:57 +1100
>But the rules for Astral Combat in the SR2 book states that "things that do
>not have an active astral presence cannot fight or be hurt in any way in
>astral space." I infer from that a mundane object cannot deal damage or be
>dealt damage by a purely astral entity. So how can the safe-sized mundane
>object damage an astral being by falling on it? I see this as the reason
>why mundane objects with auras cannot do damage to an astral object.

Because under almost any circumstance, the astral mage will be forced
(undamaged) out of the way of the falling object. It's only if there is
NO way out that the forced intersection occurs, and what happens in that
situation is not adequately described.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: SR: FAB Question
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:01:31 +0100
Faux Pas said on 12:44/ 7 Sep 96...

> "Fat Bacteria adds a significant level of conceptual difficulty to the
> Shadowrun game..."

I'm starting to believe the CSH was written by fortune tellers :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The wrong way is trying to make everybody else do it the right way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SR: FAB Question, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!