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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:32:31 -0400 (EDT)
Ok, I'm restarting this thread since the other has gotten so full of...
Other stuff...

Ok, some of this has been covered, some hasn't. Here's my take on the
upcoming products and what was discussed at the Secrets of Shadowrun and
Shadowrun Q&A. BTW: The "release dates" are a bit rough, possibly wrong
(going by memory here), and of course subject to change :]

MAN & MACHINE -- Sept 1999

Man and Machine is the redone Cyberbook. Besides updating the other stuff,
it actually defines Cyberware, how it works, and why it affects essance the
way it does. Bioware gets a facelift, and is no longer based on your Body,
but rather linked to essance as well. It doesn;t remove essance, but if
you have 4 points of cyber, you can only have Bioware for those last two
points. I'm not sure if it will be the same "price" as it used to be when
it was Body Index, nor so I know if it's a One "Body Index" for One Essance
exchange rate or what.

Mike said at the seminar that the amount of Bioware in you will affect
spellcasting by giving you a target number modifier for spellcasting for
everty point of Bioware you have. Not sure how this will affect Adepts.

Also in the new book will be Nanites.

BTW, for those discussing how this is a reprint, keep in mind that the last
Cyber book to come out is now what, 4 years old? And Bioware is 2 editions
behind, since Shadowtech never got updated for 2nd edition. :]

CORPORATE PUNISHMENT -- Nov 1999

Adventure set for Corporate Download. Three unliked adventures, I believe.
Kinda Missions style.

THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999

Revised Gun Book. Collects all info from all sourcebooks, like FoF and
SSC. Will have new stuff, like more Machine Pistols, as well as
Flamethrowers and Chainsaws, plus possibly some sort of Combat Options.

BRAINSCAN -- Jan 2000

This is an adventure set, as has been mentioned, along the lines of the
original Harlequin, and it will follow up on Renraku Shutdown.

THE MATRIX -- March 2000

Yes, this is partly going to replace VR2.0. As Mike said, 1/3 of VR2 is
reprinted in SR3, all the basic rules for decking. So they're going to
strip those out, clean up what's left, and make it more of an "Advanced
Decking" book as well as a Target: Matrix book. The focus seems to more
on the Target part rather than on the "Lets reprint VR2" part.

Plus the name is a chance to tweak the noses of the creators of the movie
by the same name, since FASA owns all the game rights to the name :] this
means if you do see any sort of game, RPG, Video, or Card, that uses the
term, you know they paid FASA some money or are about to be sued :]

THE YEAR OF THE COMET

YOTC (Yahtzee? :)) will be a major event book as Haley's Comet return to
our solar system in 2061. It will be FASA's first attempt to actually
explore space a little bit, plus lets them have fun as the comet impacts
the world (Impacts as far as events, not actually hitting, as far as I
know) with cults, as well as who knows what else.

RIGGER REDUX

Ok, yeah, this is going to be pretty much just a rewrite of Rigger 2.
They're updating it a bit, and doing a little like they are with Matrix:
Stripping out the core rules that are in SR3 already and adding some more
stuff, like the Ship construction rules and possibly even some space stuff
from YOTC.

Just as a side note here, Mike wants to make ALL "changes" to both Rigger 2
and VR2.0 available on the FASA website, so you won;t have to buy the new
book if you own the old.

TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS

This has been kicked around for a while now. Basically, the only location
Mike knows will be in there (Though i don;t think it's actually written
yet) is Australia, and will talk about an Australian magic "path",
Dreamtime Magic (I'm assuming this refers to Aboriginal magic of some
type). No other lcoations are set yet, but i'd assume Amazonia and
possibly India will end up in there somewhere.

SOTA 2061

Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be a
"yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates to
tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday type
items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides toys.

And yes, Rich's comment about the "gen con book" meant that this is
targeted for release at GC next year, not that it will be a limited edition
book. :]

YOTC ADVENTURES

An adventure set to go with YOTC.

THREATS 2

More fun nasties for GMs and plots :]

THE AWAKENING: THE FIRST 50 YEARS

This will be a sort of in depth history of the world of Shadowrun, plus
probably an "almanac" or "atlas" of the world of Shaodwrun, giving
some
loose, basic info on all the areas of the world. It may also have rules
for playing a game set just after the original Awakening, or earlier in the
SR Timeline. Possinly :]

THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT

Yeah, the title is sort of an in house joke, and won't be the real title,
though I really like it :] Basically, this is planned as a book for
playing an "alternative" game of SR, basically emphasising the horror (No,
dammit, NOT "H"orror!!!) elements of Shadowrun: Wraiths, ghosts, other
nasty creepy things that go bump in the night.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

The next big thing in SR. What it is, few know. And they're not talking.

Bull -- Hope that helps



--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:35:53 -0400 (EDT)
Ok, I'm restarting this thread since the other has gotten so full of...
Other stuff...

Ok, some of this has been covered, some hasn't. Here's my take on the
upcoming products and what was discussed at the Secrets of Shadowrun and
Shadowrun Q&A. BTW: The "release dates" are a bit rough, possibly wrong
(going by memory here), and of course subject to change :]

MAN & MACHINE -- Sept 1999

Man and Machine is the redone Cyberbook. Besides updating the other stuff,
it actually defines Cyberware, how it works, and why it affects essance the
way it does. Bioware gets a facelift, and is no longer based on your Body,
but rather linked to essance as well. It doesn;t remove essance, but if
you have 4 points of cyber, you can only have Bioware for those last two
points. I'm not sure if it will be the same "price" as it used to be when
it was Body Index, nor so I know if it's a One "Body Index" for One Essance
exchange rate or what.

Mike said at the seminar that the amount of Bioware in you will affect
spellcasting by giving you a target number modifier for spellcasting for
everty point of Bioware you have. Not sure how this will affect Adepts.

Also in the new book will be Nanites.

BTW, for those discussing how this is a reprint, keep in mind that the last
Cyber book to come out is now what, 4 years old? And Bioware is 2 editions
behind, since Shadowtech never got updated for 2nd edition. :]

CORPORATE PUNISHMENT -- Nov 1999

Adventure set for Corporate Download. Three unliked adventures, I believe.
Kinda Missions style.

THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999

Revised Gun Book. Collects all info from all sourcebooks, like FoF and
SSC. Will have new stuff, like more Machine Pistols, as well as
Flamethrowers and Chainsaws, plus possibly some sort of Combat Options.

BRAINSCAN -- Jan 2000

This is an adventure set, as has been mentioned, along the lines of the
original Harlequin, and it will follow up on Renraku Shutdown.

THE MATRIX -- March 2000

Yes, this is partly going to replace VR2.0. As Mike said, 1/3 of VR2 is
reprinted in SR3, all the basic rules for decking. So they're going to
strip those out, clean up what's left, and make it more of an "Advanced
Decking" book as well as a Target: Matrix book. The focus seems to more
on the Target part rather than on the "Lets reprint VR2" part.

Plus the name is a chance to tweak the noses of the creators of the movie
by the same name, since FASA owns all the game rights to the name :] this
means if you do see any sort of game, RPG, Video, or Card, that uses the
term, you know they paid FASA some money or are about to be sued :]

THE YEAR OF THE COMET

YOTC (Yahtzee? :)) will be a major event book as Haley's Comet return to
our solar system in 2061. It will be FASA's first attempt to actually
explore space a little bit, plus lets them have fun as the comet impacts
the world (Impacts as far as events, not actually hitting, as far as I
know) with cults, as well as who knows what else.

RIGGER REDUX

Ok, yeah, this is going to be pretty much just a rewrite of Rigger 2.
They're updating it a bit, and doing a little like they are with Matrix:
Stripping out the core rules that are in SR3 already and adding some more
stuff, like the Ship construction rules and possibly even some space stuff
from YOTC.

Just as a side note here, Mike wants to make ALL "changes" to both Rigger 2
and VR2.0 available on the FASA website, so you won;t have to buy the new
book if you own the old.

TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS

This has been kicked around for a while now. Basically, the only location
Mike knows will be in there (Though i don;t think it's actually written
yet) is Australia, and will talk about an Australian magic "path",
Dreamtime Magic (I'm assuming this refers to Aboriginal magic of some
type). No other lcoations are set yet, but i'd assume Amazonia and
possibly India will end up in there somewhere.

SOTA 2061

Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be a
"yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates to
tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday type
items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides toys.

And yes, Rich's comment about the "gen con book" meant that this is
targeted for release at GC next year, not that it will be a limited edition
book. :]

YOTC ADVENTURES

An adventure set to go with YOTC.

THREATS 2

More fun nasties for GMs and plots :]

THE AWAKENING: THE FIRST 50 YEARS

This will be a sort of in depth history of the world of Shadowrun, plus
probably an "almanac" or "atlas" of the world of Shaodwrun, giving
some
loose, basic info on all the areas of the world. It may also have rules
for playing a game set just after the original Awakening, or earlier in the
SR Timeline. Possinly :]

THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT

Yeah, the title is sort of an in house joke, and won't be the real title,
though I really like it :] Basically, this is planned as a book for
playing an "alternative" game of SR, basically emphasising the horror (No,
dammit, NOT "H"orror!!!) elements of Shadowrun: Wraiths, ghosts, other
nasty creepy things that go bump in the night.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

The next big thing in SR. What it is, few know. And they're not talking.

Bull -- Hope that helps



--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:45:51 -0700
Bull wrote:
<snip cool stuff....>
OK. I LIKE that Matrix book. The last good explanation of Shadowland was in
Denver (I DO hope they stay with that history and explanation of it. It kicked
ass.), and I'd love an expansion of it (noting the stuff in RA:S, especially
the log of the attack.). The lookback kicks ASS, though I may consider hurting
FASA if they do like the did for the "Lone Star in the CAS" section (IE, cut
out a WHOLE section for *no apparent reason*. Or even a reason up to 2 years
LATER.). Also.....Please, none of the "oh, something funky happened to this
NORMAL country (Like I've seen done with the Middle East in some cases), so it
went COMPLETELY against it's nature". I beg. I PLEAD. Give it some RATIONAL
basis in history, folks. Now, before I get off on a tangent: I remember seeing
Adam and others say they'd post transcripts and such of these seminars and such
to the list or the web. Well....when? Inquiring minds want to know so much
they're drooling on themselves.:>

John

Woof woof! Baaaaaaaaaaa!
Message no. 4
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:56:12 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bull."
] Ok, I'm restarting this thread since the other has gotten so full of...
] Other stuff...
]
] Ok, some of this has been covered, some hasn't. Here's my take on the
] upcoming products and what was discussed at the Secrets of Shadowrun and
] Shadowrun Q&A. BTW: The "release dates" are a bit rough, possibly wrong
] (going by memory here), and of course subject to change :]

Even if the release dates were carved in stone at the top of the
Sears Tower, I'd be reaching for my salt shaker :)

] MAN & MACHINE -- Sept 1999
]
] Man and Machine is the redone Cyberbook. Besides updating the other stuff,
] it actually defines Cyberware, how it works, and why it affects essance the
] way it does. Bioware gets a facelift, and is no longer based on your Body,
] but rather linked to essance as well. It doesn;t remove essance, but if
] you have 4 points of cyber, you can only have Bioware for those last two
] points. I'm not sure if it will be the same "price" as it used to be when
] it was Body Index, nor so I know if it's a One "Body Index" for One Essance
] exchange rate or what.
]
] Mike said at the seminar that the amount of Bioware in you will affect
] spellcasting by giving you a target number modifier for spellcasting for
] everty point of Bioware you have. Not sure how this will affect Adepts.
]
] Also in the new book will be Nanites.
]
] BTW, for those discussing how this is a reprint, keep in mind that the last
] Cyber book to come out is now what, 4 years old? And Bioware is 2 editions
] behind, since Shadowtech never got updated for 2nd edition. :]

Goodbye, favourite cyber-mage... :( Hello, wiz 'ware! I'm looking
forward to this one, yesiree.

] CORPORATE PUNISHMENT -- Nov 1999
]
] Adventure set for Corporate Download. Three unliked adventures, I believe.
] Kinda Missions style.

Hopefully, you meant un-linked. Let's not prejudge, hmmm? :)

] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
]
] Revised Gun Book. Collects all info from all sourcebooks, like FoF and
] SSC. Will have new stuff, like more Machine Pistols, as well as
] Flamethrowers and Chainsaws, plus possibly some sort of Combat Options.

Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."

] BRAINSCAN -- Jan 2000
]
] This is an adventure set, as has been mentioned, along the lines of the
] original Harlequin, and it will follow up on Renraku Shutdown.

Sounds nifty...should appease those who've been clamouring for "real"
adventures.

] THE MATRIX -- March 2000
]
] Yes, this is partly going to replace VR2.0. As Mike said, 1/3 of VR2 is
] reprinted in SR3, all the basic rules for decking. So they're going to
] strip those out, clean up what's left, and make it more of an "Advanced
] Decking" book as well as a Target: Matrix book. The focus seems to more
] on the Target part rather than on the "Lets reprint VR2" part.
]
] Plus the name is a chance to tweak the noses of the creators of the movie
] by the same name, since FASA owns all the game rights to the name :] this
] means if you do see any sort of game, RPG, Video, or Card, that uses the
] term, you know they paid FASA some money or are about to be sued :]

Neat, for those who like deckers...hopefully, it will include some
"Quick Decking Rules."

] THE YEAR OF THE COMET
]
] YOTC (Yahtzee? :)) will be a major event book as Haley's Comet return to
] our solar system in 2061. It will be FASA's first attempt to actually
] explore space a little bit, plus lets them have fun as the comet impacts
] the world (Impacts as far as events, not actually hitting, as far as I
] know) with cults, as well as who knows what else.

Everybody loves cults, eh? Sounds cool, and could be full of
atmosphere (get it?).

] RIGGER REDUX
]
] Ok, yeah, this is going to be pretty much just a rewrite of Rigger 2.
] They're updating it a bit, and doing a little like they are with Matrix:
] Stripping out the core rules that are in SR3 already and adding some more
] stuff, like the Ship construction rules and possibly even some space stuff
] from YOTC.

Kinda annoying...but hey, if it's at least half new stuff, with
drawings, it's a winner.

] Just as a side note here, Mike wants to make ALL "changes" to both Rigger 2
] and VR2.0 available on the FASA website, so you won;t have to buy the new
] book if you own the old.

That, my fine virtual friends, is a damned good idea, and one that's
sure to be very popular, if it happens.

] TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS
]
] This has been kicked around for a while now. Basically, the only location
] Mike knows will be in there (Though i don;t think it's actually written
] yet) is Australia, and will talk about an Australian magic "path",
] Dreamtime Magic (I'm assuming this refers to Aboriginal magic of some
] type). No other lcoations are set yet, but i'd assume Amazonia and
] possibly India will end up in there somewhere.

Extremely, extremely cool. Australia, Australia, Australia, we love you!

] SOTA 2061
]
] Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be a
] "yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates to
] tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday type
] items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides
toys.
]
] And yes, Rich's comment about the "gen con book" meant that this is
] targeted for release at GC next year, not that it will be a limited edition
] book. :]

Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)

] YOTC ADVENTURES
]
] An adventure set to go with YOTC.

Cool.

] THREATS 2
]
] More fun nasties for GMs and plots :]

Yay! Twist, this one's for you :)

] THE AWAKENING: THE FIRST 50 YEARS
]
] This will be a sort of in depth history of the world of Shadowrun, plus
] probably an "almanac" or "atlas" of the world of Shaodwrun, giving
some
] loose, basic info on all the areas of the world. It may also have rules
] for playing a game set just after the original Awakening, or earlier in the
] SR Timeline. Possinly :]

This could be neat...sounds like a Shadowbeat sort of book...

] THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT
]
] Yeah, the title is sort of an in house joke, and won't be the real title,
] though I really like it :] Basically, this is planned as a book for
] playing an "alternative" game of SR, basically emphasising the horror (No,
] dammit, NOT "H"orror!!!) elements of Shadowrun: Wraiths, ghosts, other
] nasty creepy things that go bump in the night.

Ooog...as if the Bugs weren't bad enough...

] SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
]
] The next big thing in SR. What it is, few know. And they're not talking.

More VITAS, anyone? Winternight, perhaps?

] Bull -- Hope that helps

Fantastically. You're a fine fellow for filling our frustration full
of facts.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 5
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:07:52 -0400 (EDT)
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At 12:56 AM 8/11/99 -0300, Scott W wrote:
:] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
: Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."

:] SOTA 2061
: Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)

Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

---------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 6
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:17:28 -0400
>Ok, some of this has been covered, some hasn't. Here's my take on
the
>upcoming products and what was discussed at the Secrets of Shadowrun
and
>Shadowrun Q&A. BTW: The "release dates" are a bit rough, possibly
wrong
>(going by memory here), and of course subject to change :]
>
>MAN & MACHINE -- Sept 1999
>
>Man and Machine is the redone Cyberbook. Besides updating the other
stuff,
>it actually defines Cyberware, how it works, and why it affects
essance the
>way it does. Bioware gets a facelift, and is no longer based on your
Body,
>but rather linked to essance as well. It doesn;t remove essance, but
if
>you have 4 points of cyber, you can only have Bioware for those last
two
>points. I'm not sure if it will be the same "price" as it used to be
when
>it was Body Index, nor so I know if it's a One "Body Index" for One
Essance
>exchange rate or what.


I can almost hear the munchkins groaning over this one. I know I am.
So what's gonna happen if say, I want to replace Level 4 Muscle
Replacement with Level 4 Muscle Augmentation? I'm still four points
of Essence in the hole, will the bioware help me recover that? OTOH,
bioware rules were pretty messed up for magic-users, so if they can
fix at least that part, I'll be happy.

>BTW, for those discussing how this is a reprint, keep in mind that
the last
>Cyber book to come out is now what, 4 years old? And Bioware is 2
editions
>behind, since Shadowtech never got updated for 2nd edition. :]


Yeah, but I liked Shadowtech; it sounded at least halfway
professional. Why they never followed up on the Project Infinity,
I'll never know.

>THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999


Finally....

>THE MATRIX -- March 2000
>
>Yes, this is partly going to replace VR2.0. As Mike said, 1/3 of VR2
is
>reprinted in SR3, all the basic rules for decking. So they're going
to
>strip those out, clean up what's left, and make it more of an
"Advanced
>Decking" book as well as a Target: Matrix book. The focus seems to
more
>on the Target part rather than on the "Lets reprint VR2" part.


I'd bet my Barret that the DIY costs for cyberdecks and programs are
just going to skyrocket.



>THE YEAR OF THE COMET
>
>YOTC (Yahtzee? :)) will be a major event book as Haley's Comet return
to
>our solar system in 2061. It will be FASA's first attempt to
actually
>explore space a little bit, plus lets them have fun as the comet
impacts
>the world (Impacts as far as events, not actually hitting, as far as
I
>know) with cults, as well as who knows what else.


I can almost see a Haley's Comet cult killing themselves...

>RIGGER REDUX
>
>Ok, yeah, this is going to be pretty much just a rewrite of Rigger 2.
>They're updating it a bit, and doing a little like they are with
Matrix:
>Stripping out the core rules that are in SR3 already and adding some
more
>stuff, like the Ship construction rules and possibly even some space
stuff
>from YOTC.


Please make it simple...? Or is that asking too much?

>SOTA 2061
>
>Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be
a
>"yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates
to
>tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday
type
>items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides
toys.


Can this be the beginning of a resurgence of NERPS?


<snippity, snippety>

What? NO updates to Shadowbeat? What about Tir Tairngire? Lone
Star? How about those Paranormal Animals? AUGH!

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 7
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:34:15 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to runnerpaul@*****.com."
] :] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
] : Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."
]
] :] SOTA 2061
] : Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
]
] Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!

Well, there's only so many ways you can make guns different, using a
limited set of game mechanics. Besides, too many toys risks the Rifts
syndrome, where it's gotta be bigger, better, badder, and to hell with
game balance.
But yeah, once I get everything else, I'll get the toy books, and
happily unleash the innards on my unsuspecting players >:)

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 8
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:47:31 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/99 11:23:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bull@*******.net writes:

> THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT
>
> Yeah, the title is sort of an in house joke, and won't be the real title,
> though I really like it :] Basically, this is planned as a book for
> playing an "alternative" game of SR, basically emphasising the horror (No,
> dammit, NOT "H"orror!!!) elements of Shadowrun: Wraiths, ghosts, other
> nasty creepy things that go bump in the night.
>

This sounds really cool, I was disappointed when wraiths got cut from MitS.
It could open up quite a few avenues, though, I hope it is not just a list of
"suggestions for horror roleplaying" or some such with nothing new.
Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't have let the players blow up Arkham after all,
Animatronic Cthulhu may have died too quickly.... :-)

OTOH, the whole list is a little iffy (as we all know) and may change
before it ever gets that far.
I'm still waiting for Running Short :-)
Message no. 9
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:47:21 -0700
> ] :] SOTA 2061
> ] : Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
> ]
> ] Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!
>
> Well, there's only so many ways you can make guns different, using a

It's not the guns & ammo catalogs I want. I want to know about fashion, home
appliances, the cost of wine, dining out, and all the other things one might
do in 2060-1 besides 'shoot the ork' or 'geek the mage'.

Not that I ever expect to see such a book beyond the small lists of info in
Shadowbeat. But I'd love it if they did it.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 10
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 01:00:57 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 12:53:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arcady@***.net
writes:

> It's not the guns & ammo catalogs I want. I want to know about fashion, home
> appliances, the cost of wine, dining out, and all the other things one
might
> do in 2060-1 besides 'shoot the ork' or 'geek the mage'.
>
> Not that I ever expect to see such a book beyond the small lists of info in
> Shadowbeat. But I'd love it if they did it.

Yeah, that would be cool, but rememember that the SOTA series (if they make
it to a series) are going to be ALL kinds of things, not just guns. It may
have guns dropped from CC or maybe it will be some wierd headware dreamed up
for M&M, or the new hair dryer, with the extra tusk polisher for trolls, ya
never know what it could be :-)
As for CC, though it will be guns and weapons, it might be nice to have
more traps and such :-)
And finally; for adding guns, I think the emphasis needs to be made on more
role-playing choices, whereas (starting with Street Sam Catalog IMO) most
approaches want the "something new" stat-wise. Some PCs may not really care
whether they use a Predator or Max-Power, others may sweat by one
exclusively. I think this would be a good place for shadowtalk and such
comments to draw out the differences.
Message no. 11
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 02:29:23 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Angelkiller 404."
] <snippity, snippety>

Ditto.

] What? NO updates to Shadowbeat? What about Tir Tairngire? Lone
] Star? How about those Paranormal Animals? AUGH!

The essence of Shadowbeat, I think, was the "flavour," the little
touches like sports and rock & roll that helped players envision the SR
world that much more clearly. I'd think this sort of thing would be
covered in The Awakened World, or whatever that last one on the list
was (second to last, really). Also, the SOTA releases would likely
cover a lot of that sort of thing.
Tir Tairngire needs an update? Lone Star doesn't either, just a
reprint. Critters covered the Paranormals, and I expect we'll see
gallons (and gallons) of new ones in the Target: Awakened Lands book.
I hope so.

Anyway, I could be very wrong (it's happened before. I know, I know,
hard to believe...), and we could get stuff that's way off-base from my
predictions. Or I could be uncannily spot-on, and be shipped off to an
underground base in Freedonia, where they prod me for corporate secrets
until I reveal more than just my name, nick, and favourite cereal.

Actually, they'll never learn my nick...I'm presently "between nicks."

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 12
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:28:48 +0200
Scott W wrote:
>
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to runnerpaul@*****.com."
> ] :] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
> ] : Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."
> ]
> ] :] SOTA 2061
> ] : Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
> ]
> ] Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!
>
> Well, there's only so many ways you can make guns different, using a
> limited set of game mechanics. Besides, too many toys risks the Rifts
> syndrome, where it's gotta be bigger, better, badder, and to hell with
> game balance.
> But yeah, once I get everything else, I'll get the toy books, and
> happily unleash the innards on my unsuspecting players >:)
>
I would rather like to see something like the old Rolemaster compagions,
and not just some tech upgrades.

--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 13
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 03:53:43 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/99 11:59:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> ] THREATS 2
> ]
> ] More fun nasties for GMs and plots :]
>
> Yay! Twist, this one's for you :)


I knew the blood sacrafices would work. (To any DLOH listening: Please don't
include already known enemies in this book. I liked the "Lofwyr screws the
runners" piece in Threats, but he has been around forever. And Darke too,
technically :-). Give us something new and never seen before.)



-Twist
Message no. 14
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 03:59:06 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 12:37:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> ] :] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
> ] : Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."
> ]
> ] :] SOTA 2061
> ] : Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
> ]
> ] Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!


The word to remember here is *toys*. A couple new guns would be nice, but
personally I'd rather see nifty things that help runners do the same kind of
stunts that happen in the novel or in all our imaginations. For instance,
the magnetic cyberlimb accessory from Cybertechnology was truly cool, but if
you checked out its stats, only a human with four cyberlimbs and a Body of 4
could use it. (Or three limbs and a Body of 3.) Not exactly the kind of
penetration equipment a samurai wants.
Or the fiber-optic goggles from Security Handbook.
You know, *toys*.





-Twist
Message no. 15
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 04:00:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 12:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

> Yeah, but I liked Shadowtech; it sounded at least halfway
> professional. Why they never followed up on the Project Infinity,
> I'll never know.
>


Bah! Everyone knows clones don't exist.




-Twist
Message no. 16
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 04:14:33 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 1:32:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> ] What? NO updates to Shadowbeat? What about Tir Tairngire? Lone
> ] Star? How about those Paranormal Animals? AUGH!
>
> The essence of Shadowbeat, I think, was the "flavour," the little
> touches like sports and rock & roll that helped players envision the SR
> world that much more clearly. I'd think this sort of thing would be
> covered in The Awakened World, or whatever that last one on the list
> was (second to last, really). Also, the SOTA releases would likely
> cover a lot of that sort of thing.


Mike has said in chats before that he truly, truly, vehemently hated
Shadowbeat. And he doesn't seem very fond of atmosphere books either
(whether that's because they don't sell well or because they don't add
directly to the business of shadowrunning, I don't know; I always liked them).
What would be very cool, I think, is a kind of Shadowrun Tonight book. (Pun
on Entertainment Tonight.) A book touring the world of SR, from
entertainment to daily living toys to junk foodies to fashion to celebrities
to book of the month club selections (oh, I'd love to see a pun on The Rules,
:-). Something which really lets you feel what it's like to live in
Shadowrun's world. (Truthfully, what we've really seen so far is either
Place books -describing some locale- or tech books -describing new ways to
kill people-. Now if you look at our own society, you wouldn't get the
picture of what it's like to live in any one place by reading gun magazines
and travel brochures.) What I'd like is for Shadowrun to do the
"chromebooks" idea one better.






-Twist
Message no. 17
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:45 PM 8/10/99 -0700, Penta wrote these timeless words:

[SNIP]

> Now, before I get off on a tangent: I remember seeing
>Adam and others say they'd post transcripts and such of these seminars and
such
>to the list or the web. Well....when? Inquiring minds want to know so much
>they're drooling on themselves.:>
>
Adam had a 47+ hour bus ride home, and I don't know if he ended up going
straight home after the con or went back to Chicago with some friends he
met up with down there. Anyways, he is the one who taped the Secrets of
Shadowrun seminar, so...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 18
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:19:43 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:56 AM 8/11/99 -0300, Scott W wrote these timeless words:

>] CORPORATE PUNISHMENT -- Nov 1999
>]
>] Adventure set for Corporate Download. Three unliked adventures, I believe.
>] Kinda Missions style.
>
> Hopefully, you meant un-linked. Let's not prejudge, hmmm? :)
>
Yes, I meant Unlinked. Hell, if I had any pre-prejudices, it would be that
I liked it since a couple of friends are writing one of the adventures :]
(And no, I won't say who unless he feels like bragging :))

>] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
>]
> Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."
>
Personally I consider this a "Must Buy". Of course, that's because, for
the most part, I've only been allowing SR3 stuff into my most recent game.
So my players eagerly await CC and MM.

>] THE MATRIX -- March 2000
>]
> Neat, for those who like deckers...hopefully, it will include some
>"Quick Decking Rules."
>
Actually, Quick Start, which just came out at Gen Con and sells for $7.00
US (And Lady J, OUCH! I can;t believe how they're gouging you Aussies!).
They do include really watered down quick and dirty decking rules.

>] THE YEAR OF THE COMET
>]
> Everybody loves cults, eh? Sounds cool, and could be full of
>atmosphere (get it?).
>
Yer funny :]

Actually, it will be more than just Space Rules and Cults, but I can;t say
no mores unless I want the FASA Game Police to come after me :]

>] RIGGER REDUX
>]
> Kinda annoying...but hey, if it's at least half new stuff, with
>drawings, it's a winner.
>
Plus, keep in mind one thing. As annoying as it is, these books aren;t
geared towards us old timers. They're trying to justify the cost of a book
like RIgger to a new player, who just dropped 30 bucks on SR3 and then
looks at R2 and goes "Wait a minute, I have most of these rules!" And
there should be at least 1/3 new rules, anyways...

>] Just as a side note here, Mike wants to make ALL "changes" to both Rigger
2
>] and VR2.0 available on the FASA website, so you won;t have to buy the new
>] book if you own the old.
>
> That, my fine virtual friends, is a damned good idea, and one that's
>sure to be very popular, if it happens.
>
Agreed, and this could affected somewhat by the Decipher purchase.
According to Mike, part of the problem now is that the web group that does
the FASA page are a bunch of morons. He sends them info (LIke the
Erratta), says post it under an Erratta button, and what happens? They
bury the info by linking each Erratta individually under the specific book
in the Purchase section of the page! Then when he says to fix it, they
simply remove all the erratta links.

However, Decipher owns their own server and has a full time Web Staff, one
or two of which will probably be put to work on FASA's page, should the
buyout go through.

As was mentioned, everything I heard from everyone at GC made me think this
buyout is going to be nothing but positives. Granted, that's PR and stuff,
but still... This is an expansion on Deciphers part, a way to grow. Not a
takeover, like what happened to Avalon Hill with Hasbro.

>] SOTA 2061
>]
>] Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be a
>] "yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates to
>] tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday type
>] items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides
>toys.
>]
>] And yes, Rich's comment about the "gen con book" meant that this is
>] targeted for release at GC next year, not that it will be a limited edition
>] book. :]
>
> Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
>
<shrug> I don;t know what the cost will be... But... It's gonna
basically be a chance for FASA to update stuff regularly and easily, throw
in misc. new rules, new gear, and other stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else.

>] Bull -- Hope that helps
>
> Fantastically. You're a fine fellow for filling our frustration full
>of facts.
>
Why, thank ya kindly :] I go to GC JUST to update you guys <grin>

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 19
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:19:47 -0400 (EDT)
At 01:34 AM 8/11/99 -0300, Scott W wrote these timeless words:
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to runnerpaul@*****.com."
>] :] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
>] : Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."
>]
>] :] SOTA 2061
>] : Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
>]
>] Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!
>
> Well, there's only so many ways you can make guns different, using a
>limited set of game mechanics. Besides, too many toys risks the Rifts
>syndrome, where it's gotta be bigger, better, badder, and to hell with
>game balance.
> But yeah, once I get everything else, I'll get the toy books, and
>happily unleash the innards on my unsuspecting players >:)
>
Hehe... Keep in mind that this won;t be just Guns. It'll be cyber, bio,
magic, decking, rigging, general tech, misc. items, and a place to showcase
cool "everyday" items. Plus whatever else FASA wants to throw in :]

Ok, not saying that anymore. I promise :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 20
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 05:19:49 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:17 AM 8/11/99 -0400, Angelkiller 404 wrote these timeless words:

>
>I can almost hear the munchkins groaning over this one.
>
Hehe... GOOD! :]

>I know I am.
>
You admit you're a munchkin? :]

>So what's gonna happen if say, I want to replace Level 4 Muscle
>Replacement with Level 4 Muscle Augmentation? I'm still four points
>of Essence in the hole, will the bioware help me recover that? OTOH,
>bioware rules were pretty messed up for magic-users, so if they can
>fix at least that part, I'll be happy.
>
Well, Bioware doesn;t actually cost essence. It just "borrows" the slot,
so to speak, I guess... <shrug> It's hard to explain, but it seems like
it will work. But yeah, it'll be a hell of a lot harder to abuse in the
future, and Munchies and PG's alike will be screaming bloody murder about
this. Should be fun :/

>>BTW, for those discussing how this is a reprint, keep in mind that
>the last
>>Cyber book to come out is now what, 4 years old? And Bioware is 2
>editions
>>behind, since Shadowtech never got updated for 2nd edition. :]
>
>Yeah, but I liked Shadowtech; it sounded at least halfway
>professional. Why they never followed up on the Project Infinity,
>I'll never know.
>
I liked Shadowtech too, but as I said, it never got even the cursory update
that SSC did. Plus, the rules section was badly written. Depnding on what
page you look at, there are three different rules for how Bioware effects
essense in magically active characters (1. No effect. 2. Lose Magic Rating
Only 3. Essence and Magic loss), and theres a couple other thjings in
there that aren;t as clearly defined as well.

>I can almost see a Haley's Comet cult killing themselves...
>
Hell, look at the cult for the Hale Bop Comet. <shrug> And that was a
little one.

>>RIGGER REDUX
>>
>
>Please make it simple...? Or is that asking too much?
>
Hehe... Probably :] The rules are great the way they work now, they're
just a bit "techie" in the way it's written...

>>SOTA 2061
>>
>>Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be
>a
>>"yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates
>to
>>tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday
>type
>>items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides
>toys.
>
>Can this be the beginning of a resurgence of NERPS?
>
Well, seeing as how there was never an actual FASA NERPS book, I'm not sure
what you mean. And in general, even the NERPS books Gurth used to do
weren't really what these are going for now. This is going to be a little
more like an average issue of the TSS: A littloe of everything and
anything. Probably no actualy adventure, but...

><snippity, snippety>
>
>What? NO updates to Shadowbeat? What about Tir Tairngire? Lone
>Star? How about those Paranormal Animals? AUGH!
>
Tir and Lone Star don't need it, though LS needs reprinted. Paranormal
Animals were in the GM screen's Critters book (sans half page pictures),
and Shadowbeat, well... That's a mixed concept. I loved Shadowbeat, but
can;t see it coming back in it's original form. That type of Info could
easily end up in the SOTA books though.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 21
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:04:43 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 5:11:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bull@*******.net
writes:

> >] SOTA 2061
> >]
> >] Mike wants to do these books every year or two. Basically they'll be a
> >] "yearbook" of sorts, with gear for all types of characters. Updates
to
> >] tech, new guns, spells, drones, programs, etc. Plus some everyday type
> >] items. Basically something with less actual focus that just provides
> >toys.
> >]
> >] And yes, Rich's comment about the "gen con book" meant that this is
> >] targeted for release at GC next year, not that it will be a limited
> edition
> >] book. :]
> >
> > Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
> >
> <shrug> I don;t know what the cost will be... But... It's gonna
> basically be a chance for FASA to update stuff regularly and easily, throw
> in misc. new rules, new gear, and other stuff that doesn't fit anywhere
else.
>


This may just be me here, but does anyone else think it'd be cool if each
book also carries over to the next SOTA book? And all this would give some
actual benefit from the SOTA rules themselves?
For instance, a player buys Brand-X heavy pistol from the first SOTA
book. SOTA-2 comes out, and says that Brand-X has now been upgraded with a
new feature. If the player makes their standard SOTA payment when weapons
rolls up on the chart, they instantly add that to the Brand-X pistol they
own! So in effect, SOTA actually does something!
And then there can be the cruel situation when SOTA-3 comes out, and says
Brand-X corp has folded, replacement parts and such are no longer available,
and the players have to pay twice the standard SOTA cost the next time
weapons are rolled to switch to a different brand.
Oh, the degrading fun of it all!




-Twist
Message no. 22
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:05:26 -0400
> Also in the new book will be Nanites.

Let's hope this is actually written intelligently. I know it won't be,
though. Nanites becoming feasible will have _major_ world-shaking
consequences for the planet and its inhabitants. Nanites change
_everything_. Warfare is never the same. Medicine is never the same. With
the ability to edit anything at a molecular level, the will become very
different, very quickly. I've written to DLOH about this, but I'm almost
positive that FASA's take on nanites will be "oh yeah, there's also some
nanites".

> THE MATRIX -- March 2000
> The focus seems to more
> on the Target part rather than on the "Lets reprint VR2" part.

Wo hoo! It's about time. I've thought of doing this for years. I should have
sent in my notes. The sooner FASA realizes that the Matrix is the lifeblood
of modern society and stops treating it as just a playground for deckers,
the better.

> THE YEAR OF THE COMET

Ug. I hope this is better than first... well, better than I think it will
be.

> RIGGER REDUX
> Just as a side note here, Mike wants to make ALL "changes" to
> both Rigger 2
> and VR2.0 available on the FASA website, so you won't have to buy the new
> book if you own the old.

Interesting. I suppose we can look forward to more bad PDF formatting, a la
Dragons.

> TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS
> No other locations are set yet, but I'd assume Amazonia and
> possibly India will end up in there somewhere.

Total guess here, but I'd put money on Yakut.

> THE AWAKENING: THE FIRST 50 YEARS
>
> This will be a sort of in depth history of the world of Shadowrun, plus
> probably an "almanac" or "atlas" of the world of Shadowrun,
giving some
> loose, basic info on all the areas of the world.

Hallelujah!

> THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT

One of the challenges of this book will be to make ghosts something that can
terrify everyone, including magicians. As written now (IIRC), ghosts are
always astral, which means astral mages can just fight them to get rid of
them. The fear factor of ghosts is that (generally) they can do things to
you, but you can't do anything to them. If you can just fix a haunting
through astral combat, ghosts might as well not even be discussed, because
they won't be "boo scary".

> SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
>
> The next big thing in SR. What it is, few know. And they're not talking.

Not yet.
Message no. 23
From: Tamino tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:21:26 +1000
At 10:05 11/08/99 -0400, wordman wrote:
>> Also in the new book will be Nanites.
>
>Let's hope this is actually written intelligently. I know it won't be,
>though. Nanites becoming feasible will have _major_ world-shaking
>consequences for the planet and its inhabitants. Nanites change
>_everything_. Warfare is never the same. Medicine is never the same. With
>the ability to edit anything at a molecular level, the will become very
>different, very quickly. I've written to DLOH about this, but I'm almost
>positive that FASA's take on nanites will be "oh yeah, there's also some
>nanites".

I cannot disagree with your more strongly, I think you'll find the
new rules and writeups for nanites to be ok...don't judge all nanite
tech by RA:S...

>> THE YEAR OF THE COMET
>
>Ug. I hope this is better than first... well, better than I think it will
>be.

It has the potential to totally ace Dunky's will, whether it does
or not remains to be seen.

>> TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS
>> No other locations are set yet, but I'd assume Amazonia and
>> possibly India will end up in there somewhere.
>
>Total guess here, but I'd put money on Yakut.

Well we know Australia is definately going to be in it, as for the
rest I'm guessing - Amazonia, Azania and maybe *coughAwakenedcough*
Manchuria...

>> THE AWAKENING: THE FIRST 50 YEARS
>>
>> This will be a sort of in depth history of the world of Shadowrun, plus
>> probably an "almanac" or "atlas" of the world of Shadowrun,
giving some
>> loose, basic info on all the areas of the world.
>
>Hallelujah!

I can't agree more...this book sound so cool...I've been waiting
for something like it for years.

>> THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT
>
>One of the challenges of this book will be to make ghosts something that can
>terrify everyone, including magicians. As written now (IIRC), ghosts are
>always astral, which means astral mages can just fight them to get rid of
>them. The fear factor of ghosts is that (generally) they can do things to
>you, but you can't do anything to them. If you can just fix a haunting
>through astral combat, ghosts might as well not even be discussed, because
>they won't be "boo scary".

As long as I don't have to make a insanity roll every 10 minutes
game time, I'll be happy ;) .But something needs to be done
to remove the Horror stigma from anything to do with horror and
terror in the shadowrun world. Perhaps a chance to bring in some
unique wonders from the Great Planes with truly *alien* intelligences,
and I don't mean extra terrestrial...though they are in a sense as not
being from earth...anyway I'm gonna be quiet now... ;)

>> SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
>>
>> The next big thing in SR. What it is, few know. And they're not talking.
>
>Not yet.

Can we say NDA? ;)




-Tamino ...All too easy

"ISTI MIRANT STELLA" - Bayeux Tapestry
tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Message no. 24
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:51:57 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 10:11:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> > Also in the new book will be Nanites.
>
> Let's hope this is actually written intelligently. I know it won't be,
> though. Nanites becoming feasible will have _major_ world-shaking
> consequences for the planet and its inhabitants. Nanites change
> _everything_. Warfare is never the same. Medicine is never the same. With
> the ability to edit anything at a molecular level, the will become very
> different, very quickly. I've written to DLOH about this, but I'm almost
> positive that FASA's take on nanites will be "oh yeah, there's also some
> nanites".


Nanites have been around since ShadowTech, you know. At least the desciption
of how they serve the implantation of cyberware.





-Twist
Message no. 25
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:55:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 10:26:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
tamino@**********.wow.aust.com writes:

> As long as I don't have to make a insanity roll every 10 minutes
> game time, I'll be happy ;) .But something needs to be done
> to remove the Horror stigma from anything to do with horror and
> terror in the shadowrun world. Perhaps a chance to bring in some
> unique wonders from the Great Planes with truly *alien* intelligences,
> and I don't mean extra terrestrial...though they are in a sense as not
> being from earth...anyway I'm gonna be quiet now... ;)


YES!!!! For too long horror in Shadowrun has been limited to the Insect
Spirits (cool, but past their prime now) and the Horrors (Things Man Were Not
Meant To Know, and now seriously exterminated form the line; which is
actually a good thing since you don't want SR to become ED and soley a battle
against evil magical demons).

I can't wait to see what terrors FASA dreams up as new magical baddies. Oh,
oh, oh! Name the book: It Came From Astral Space.



:-)


-Twist
Message no. 26
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:10:09 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 5:12:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bull@*******.net
writes:

> Tir and Lone Star don't need it, though LS needs reprinted. Paranormal
> Animals were in the GM screen's Critters book (sans half page pictures),
> and Shadowbeat, well... That's a mixed concept. I loved Shadowbeat, but
> can;t see it coming back in it's original form. That type of Info could
> easily end up in the SOTA books though.

I have not gotten the GM Screen, but I have heard the critters run-downs were
very bland, basicaly just stats. <shrug> I think we 've (the list) gone over
this before, but, I do like my critters :-)
Also, as Twist (sorta) said, Mike M doesn't like Shadowbeat, first, I think
it was one of the worst selling books they made (right behind that Lone Star
that everyone wants reprinted :-)
2) He likes Shadowrunners to be more shadowy, more criminal (to use Twists
words) hence the loss of the Neo-A's (which were actually gone before him,
but hey :-)

On the point #2 though, I have noticed that the newer products al seem to be
taking that "written by shadowrunners" look, as opposed to the old "look
guys, we ripped off a corporate catalog, lets all make comments in it now".
Myself, I prefer the old shadow updated mainstream stuff, what about others?
Message no. 27
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:13:21 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 11:11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> 2) He likes Shadowrunners to be more shadowy, more criminal (to use
Twists
> words) hence the loss of the Neo-A's (which were actually gone before him,
> but hey :-)
>

If not for Mike, I suspect the Target books would have been Neo-A books.





-Twist
Message no. 28
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:16:54 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 11:11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> Myself, I prefer the old shadow updated mainstream stuff, what about others?

Need I even voice my opinion on this? :-)




-Twist
Message no. 29
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:24:19 -0400
Once upon a time, Angelkiller 404 wrote;

>I can almost see a Haley's Comet cult killing themselves..

Or someone else.
B>]#
Message no. 30
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:32:19 +1000
At 00:56 11/08/99 -0300 Scott W wrote
>] TARGET: AWAKENED LANDS
> Extremely, extremely cool. Australia, Australia, Australia, we love you!

And we love you all unless your name is Shannon Sharpe.

>] THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT
>
> Ooog...as if the Bugs weren't bad enough...

Oh great, the Angstwankers guide to tortured souls.
Just what we need to keep Shadowrun moving
forward.
__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 31
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:33:22 -0400
>
> On the point #2 though, I have noticed that the newer products al seem to be
> taking that "written by shadowrunners" look, as opposed to the old
"look
> guys, we ripped off a corporate catalog, lets all make comments in it now".
> Myself, I prefer the old shadow updated mainstream stuff, what about others?

I like the old style myself. Often the comments made you think what else could
you do with whatever it was besides its intended purpose. Often the ideas were
shot down immediatly by the GM, but it was still fun to come up with them. I
believe it was a small side comment in FoF that prompted an amusing and now
infamous debate in the group I played with a while ago about dikoted buckshot.

The old style also seemed more of the Shadowrun "feel", grab something you
shouldn't have, tweak it, disperse it, more of what characters would read. The
new style just seems somehow less, geared more towards player knowledge than
fitting it into a context that characters would read.


Wildfire
'Nother post, 'nother opinion...

"I was lying in bed, looking up at the stars, when suddenly I thought to myself,
"Where the f*ck did my roof go?!" - The Xenephon Fenderson Quote File
Message no. 32
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:39:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 10:11:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> One of the challenges of this book will be to make ghosts something that can
> terrify everyone, including magicians. As written now (IIRC), ghosts are
> always astral, which means astral mages can just fight them to get rid of
> them. The fear factor of ghosts is that (generally) they can do things to
> you, but you can't do anything to them. If you can just fix a haunting
> through astral combat, ghosts might as well not even be discussed, because
> they won't be "boo scary".

They did add anchors (or whatever they're called) so that Ghosts cannot be
banished without the item. I assume the book will also expand such
restrictions. they also need to make some sort of "hiding place" for the
spirit, so that you can't just wander into him while astral and gain too much
knowledge. A backgtround count could help of course, but that gets
suspiscious too
Message no. 33
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:31:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/1999 10:23:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bull@*******.net writes:

>
> SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
>
> The next big thing in SR. What it is, few know. And they're not talking.
>
Though by the DLOH and his ELOH-in-Training (see HHH pics later today), we
are definitely sharpening our swords early...

-K
Message no. 34
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:36:36 +700
>> ] :] SOTA 2061
>> ]
>> ] Come on! I thought everyone loved the toy catalogs!
>>
>> Well, there's only so many ways you can make guns different, using a
>>
>I would rather like to see something like the old Rolemaster compagions,
>and not just some tech upgrades.

Rolemaster has a book called '...and a 10 foot pole'.

I'd love to see something like done for near future and sci fi settings.

Price and availability for everything from wine in the Roman empire to a radio
in the 30's to medival crops. For any game set in the modern day or before it
is an invaluable sourcebook. Too bad no such item exits for future tech games.
Message no. 35
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:32:01 -0500
> > ] What? NO updates to Shadowbeat? What about Tir Tairngire? Lone
> > ] Star? How about those Paranormal Animals? AUGH!
> >
> > The essence of Shadowbeat, I think, was the "flavour," the little
> > touches like sports and rock & roll that helped players envision the SR
> > world that much more clearly. I'd think this sort of thing would be
> > covered in The Awakened World, or whatever that last one on the list
> > was (second to last, really). Also, the SOTA releases would likely
> > cover a lot of that sort of thing.
>
>
> Mike has said in chats before that he truly, truly, vehemently hated
> Shadowbeat.
>
How can anyone hate Shadowbeat?? There hasn't been a better book that helped
explain the background of the world and how it really was (although a little
tongue in cheek).

> And he doesn't seem very fond of atmosphere books either
>
*sniff* I miss Tom.
Message no. 36
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:38:04 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/1999 11:41:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

>
> <snippity, snippety>
>
> What? NO updates to Shadowbeat? What about Tir Tairngire? Lone
> Star? How about those Paranormal Animals? AUGH!

Actually, there is a possibility for these, but it was not a concentrated
topic. Damn but you folks are an impatient lot... ;-PPP

-K
Message no. 37
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:42:32 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 12:32:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> Though by the DLOH and his ELOH-in-Training (see HHH pics later today), we
> are definitely sharpening our swords early...
>
> -K

ELOH?



-Twist
Message no. 38
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:43:33 -0400
On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:33:22 -0400 Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
writes:
[small snip]

>The old style also seemed more of the Shadowrun "feel", grab something
you
>shouldn't have, tweak it, disperse it, more of what characters would
read. The
>new style just seems somehow less, geared more towards player knowledge
than
>fitting it into a context that characters would read.
>
I tend to agree. The older books, especially ones like Shadowbeat, give
the SR universe it's "flavor". It gives both players and GMs a look at
how the entire SR universe is, not just the little corner labeled:
"Shadowrunners only".
Personally, I like "flavor" books because they give the campaign an
atmosphere that everyone understands. Yes it's nice to know that you
can do such and such with this and that, but it's just numbers without
any view on how it affects the rest of the world.
What happens outside the shadows strongly influences what happens inside
the shadows. If a universe is static than it just dies. Unless there's
growth (which usually but not always) implies expansion. As concepts are
developed, then give the entire game a richer flavor that makes it more
appealing not only to those of us who play regularly but to potential
players as well.

*************************************************************************
********************
Griffin Industries
"A Shadowrunner's Corp."

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Message no. 39
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:52:05 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/1999 9:11:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> > Also in the new book will be Nanites.
>
> Let's hope this is actually written intelligently. I know it won't be,
> though. Nanites becoming feasible will have _major_ world-shaking
> consequences for the planet and its inhabitants. Nanites change
> _everything_. Warfare is never the same. Medicine is never the same. With
> the ability to edit anything at a molecular level, the will become very
> different, very quickly. I've written to DLOH about this, but I'm almost
> positive that FASA's take on nanites will be "oh yeah, there's also some
> nanites".

You are right and you are wrong. Yes, it will have some major implications
to functions on the globe. No, it will not be the stuff "Gray Oooze" calibre.

-K
Message no. 40
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:14:47 -0400 (EDT)
Manx wrote:
>
> >] THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT
> >
> > Ooog...as if the Bugs weren't bad enough...
>
> Oh great, the Angstwankers guide to tortured souls.
> Just what we need to keep Shadowrun moving forward.

No, that's not what the book is about. To paraphrase Mike, he wants
to make Astral Space has dangerous to mages as the Matrix is to deckers.
There's stuff living in astral space, and it hasn't been well-defined yet.
Message no. 41
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:16:50 +700
>>] THE CANNON COMPANION -- Dec 1999
>>]
>> Cool. Probably a "putter-offer."
>>
>Personally I consider this a "Must Buy". Of course, that's because, for
>the most part, I've only been allowing SR3 stuff into my most recent game.

>So my players eagerly await CC and MM.

Same here on must buy and for the same reason. Considering what's being done
with Bioware in MM I'm glad I made the call I made too.
Message no. 42
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:24:19 -0400 (EDT)
Bull wrote:
>
> At 12:56 AM 8/11/99 -0300, Scott W wrote:
>
> >] CORPORATE PUNISHMENT -- Nov 1999
> >]
> >] Adventure set for Corporate Download. Three unliked adventures, I believe.
> >] Kinda Missions style.
> >
> Yes, I meant Unlinked. Hell, if I had any pre-prejudices, it would be that
> I liked it since a couple of friends are writing one of the adventures :]

I don't know if I'd classify the book as like Missions. Each adventure will
be a more traditional shadowrun. You get hired by a corp to do something,
possibly to another corp (or two), or by a third part to do something to
a corp(s). Easy runs, minimal complications. :)


> >] SOTA 2061
> >
> > Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)

Well, it will include updates for *everything*, decks, guns, gear, new
magic goodies, maybe some new metamagic techniques, new programs, vehicles.
Should be worth the $20 if you like to keep your campaign on the cutting
edge, or just want the opposition to be a notch tougher.


Rich, NFSN
Message no. 43
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:30:01 -0400
Once upon a time, Ereskanti@***.com wrote;

>> SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

>...we are definitely sharpening our swords early...

eh? Your use of insider knowledge making a comment that only you
seem to follow is not helpful in the least.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 44
From: Veskrashen veskrashen@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:31:51 -1100
Tamino wrote:
>
> At 10:05 11/08/99 -0400, wordman wrote:
> >> Also in the new book will be Nanites.
> >
> >Let's hope this is actually written intelligently. I know it won't be,
> >though. Nanites becoming feasible will have _major_ world-shaking
> >consequences for the planet and its inhabitants. Nanites change
> >_everything_. Warfare is never the same. Medicine is never the same. With
> >the ability to edit anything at a molecular level, the will become very
> >different, very quickly. I've written to DLOH about this, but I'm almost
> >positive that FASA's take on nanites will be "oh yeah, there's also some
> >nanites".
>
> I cannot disagree with your more strongly, I think you'll find the
> new rules and writeups for nanites to be ok...don't judge all nanite
> tech by RA:S...

Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."

"It's true that a surgeon can position the cyber components in the body,
but the job of actually linking the cybernetic device to the
human/metahuman nervous system is left to genetically engineered
microsurgical units called nanites."

The section then goes on to explain how the actually linkage process
occurs, and what happens to the nanites afterwards. Of course, if
there's going to be robotics based nanites in M&M, that's an entirely
different story.

-Ves.
Message no. 45
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:31:19 -0400
Tamino wrote:
> At 10:05 11/08/99 -0400, wordman wrote:
> >> Also in the new book will be Nanites.
> >
> >Let's hope this is actually written intelligently. I know it won't be,
> >though. Nanites becoming feasible will have _major_ world-shaking
> >consequences for the planet and its inhabitants. Nanites change
> >_everything_. Warfare is never the same. Medicine is never the same. With
> >the ability to edit anything at a molecular level, the will become very
> >different, very quickly. I've written to DLOH about this, but I'm almost
> >positive that FASA's take on nanites will be "oh yeah, there's also some
> >nanites".
>
> I cannot disagree with your more strongly, I think you'll find the
> new rules and writeups for nanites to be ok...don't judge all nanite
> tech by RA:S...

The point I was trying to get across is that the introduction of nanites
into a game should be a _major_ event in that game world. Nanite rules might
just take up a couple pages, but the social fallout of nanites should fill a
sourcebook.

Wordman
Message no. 46
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:58:54 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/1999 12:11:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > Though by the DLOH and his ELOH-in-Training (see HHH pics later today),
we
> > are definitely sharpening our swords early...
> >
> > -K
>
> ELOH?

You'll see... "E" stands in this case for Empress

-K
Message no. 47
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:07:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 7:00:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > > Though by the DLOH and his ELOH-in-Training (see HHH pics later today),
> we
> > > are definitely sharpening our swords early...
> > >
> > > -K
> >
> > ELOH?
>
> You'll see... "E" stands in this case for Empress

Empress Lord on High? :-)
maybe DEOH?
Message no. 48
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:23:38 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Twist0059@***.com."
] > 2) He likes Shadowrunners to be more shadowy, more criminal (to use
] Twists
] > words) hence the loss of the Neo-A's (which were actually gone
before him,
] > but hey :-)
] >
]
] If not for Mike, I suspect the Target books would have been Neo-A books.

Then thank goodness for Mike (IMO). I got The NA Guide to NA
recently, and boy, only the 'Provinces' section of Tir na nOg was more
boring than that initial Neo-A diatribe. Ech, blech, and blooey. The
NAs really do best as a background group, like Humanis, Mothers of
Metahumans, Illuminates, etc.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 49
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:25:58 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."
] >I would rather like to see something like the old Rolemaster compagions,
] >and not just some tech upgrades.
]
] Rolemaster has a book called '...and a 10 foot pole'.
]
] I'd love to see something like done for near future and sci fi settings.
]
] Price and availability for everything from wine in the Roman empire
to a radio
] in the 30's to medival crops. For any game set in the modern day or
before it
] is an invaluable sourcebook. Too bad no such item exits for future
tech games.

Well, the nice thing about Shadowrun is you can estimate based on
current prices. Frankly, a book detailing the inventory of the Price
Club, and how much it all costs would be pretty much trivia, and not so
useful (to me, at least).

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 50
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:31:27 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bull."
] >] THE MATRIX -- March 2000
] >]
] > Neat, for those who like deckers...hopefully, it will include some
] >"Quick Decking Rules."
] >
] Actually, Quick Start, which just came out at Gen Con and sells for $7.00
] US (And Lady J, OUCH! I can;t believe how they're gouging you Aussies!).
] They do include really watered down quick and dirty decking rules.

Anybody have this yet? Wanna give us the ol' "buy it/borrow it" rundown?

] >] THE YEAR OF THE COMET
] >]
] > Everybody loves cults, eh? Sounds cool, and could be full of
] >atmosphere (get it?).
] >
] Yer funny :]
]
] Actually, it will be more than just Space Rules and Cults, but I can;t say
] no mores unless I want the FASA Game Police to come after me :]

Minutes after I wrote that, they broke down my door and mis-matched
all my socks. I'll understand if you want to keep mum about it.

] However, Decipher owns their own server and has a full time Web Staff, one
] or two of which will probably be put to work on FASA's page, should the
] buyout go through.

Woohoo!

] >] SOTA 2061
] > Sounds iffy...better be cheap :)
] >
] <shrug> I don;t know what the cost will be... But... It's gonna
] basically be a chance for FASA to update stuff regularly and easily, throw
] in misc. new rules, new gear, and other stuff that doesn't fit
anywhere else.

If it's going to be a thin book, as it sounds like it would have to
be, then it'd better be cheap. That's all I really meant.

] >] Bull -- Hope that helps
] >
] > Fantastically. You're a fine fellow for filling our frustration full
] >of facts.
] >
] Why, thank ya kindly :] I go to GC JUST to update you guys <grin>

Thanks for being such a team player, we know it must have been awful
boring... :P

BTW, did anyone actually play Shadowrun? How did that go?

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 51
From: Mike Buckalew mike_buckalew@*********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:20:30 -0700
Scott W asked:

> BTW, did anyone actually play Shadowrun? How did that go?

Oh yeah. There were list people all over the place at the FASA sponsored SR
tournament. It was classic shadowrunning, datasteals and surgical strikes
on corporate facilities. My team made it to the final round and we had a
lot of fun getting there.

Although I was at the other table, Mike Mulvihil ran one of the games during
the finals, which is pretty cool.

Buck (Mike Buckalew)
buck@*********.com
Test Manager
FileMaker, Inc.
Message no. 52
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:34:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 7:00:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > > Though by the DLOH and his ELOH-in-Training (see HHH pics later today),
> we
> > > are definitely sharpening our swords early...
> > >
> > > -K
> >
> > ELOH?
>
> You'll see... "E" stands in this case for Empress
>
> -K


Oh, we're getting another Shadowrun Line Developer?




-Twist
Message no. 53
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
At 08:31 PM 8/11/99 -0300, Scott W wrote these timeless words:

>] Actually, Quick Start, which just came out at Gen Con and sells for $7.00
>] US (And Lady J, OUCH! I can;t believe how they're gouging you Aussies!).
>] They do include really watered down quick and dirty decking rules.
>
> Anybody have this yet? Wanna give us the ol' "buy it/borrow it" rundown?
>
I'd say that for most of us, it's a "Borrow It" book. It's SR Lite, for
all intents and purposes. VERY watered down rules so that it's simple,
quick, and easy to pick up and learn. Basically a SR Starter set to let
people see whether or not they might be interested in the game.

Bahamut has a copy of it, so maybe you can beg him to post a review :]

> BTW, did anyone actually play Shadowrun? How did that go?
>
Sort of. I GMed the 3 games of the SR Tourney. Does that count?

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 54
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:08:38 +1000
>Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
>since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
>Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."

Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
difference will be addressed in M&M.


Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 55
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:44:56 -0400 (EDT)
At 08:34 PM 8/11/99 EDT, Twist0059@***.com wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 8/11/99 7:00:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>Oh, we're getting another Shadowrun Line Developer?
>
I believe we're talking about dear, sweet Clementine Mulvhill :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 56
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:14:09 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/1999 7:36:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > You'll see... "E" stands in this case for Empress
> > -K
> Oh, we're getting another Shadowrun Line Developer?


ROFLMAO!!! Yeah Twist, in perhaps another 20-30 years...

-K
Message no. 57
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:05:25 -0400
At 20.23 08-11-99 -0300, you wrote:
>NAs really do best as a background group, like Humanis, Mothers of
>Metahumans, Illuminates, etc.

OK, so where is the "background" in the bloody books? From what I've
seen, there isn't any or damn little. Without books that do background and
flavor other than the novels, SR remains a weaker setting. System (with a
few exception) is fine. Settings are fine. That is all fine and good from
a rollplaying point of view.
Things like sports, music, organizations and associations, religion and
fashion make the setting more real. I am not a big fan of CP2020, but that
kind of depth is real nice, mainly becuase most GMs don't do avery good
job, IME, of flavor. Roleplaying needs a frame work, and the better it is
from the company, the better it is for most players, and it makes it easier
to move a character from group to another. ("What do you mean you have no
"Church of the Flaming Plastic Elvis'? I'm a ordained minister!!")


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 58
From: Zixx t_berghoff@*********.netsurf.de
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:57:26 +0200
On 11 Aug 99, at 20:34, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> > > ELOH?
> >
> > You'll see... "E" stands in this case for Empress
> >
> > -K
>
> Oh, we're getting another Shadowrun Line Developer?

No. K's talking about Mike's daughter...:)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:-- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+ w---() O-
M-- PS+(+++) PE- Y+>++ t+(++) 5+ X++
R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 59
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 00:03:59 +1000
>> >] THE BOO SCARY SHADOWRUN BOOK OF THE NIGHT
>> >
>> > Ooog...as if the Bugs weren't bad enough...
>>
>> Oh great, the Angstwankers guide to tortured souls.
>> Just what we need to keep Shadowrun moving forward.
>
>No, that's not what the book is about. To paraphrase Mike, he wants
>to make Astral Space has dangerous to mages as the Matrix is to deckers.
>There's stuff living in astral space, and it hasn't been well-defined yet.

Then if that is the case it should be NOT be presented as being
a cash in on White Wolf stuff. That is how I read it. There
is a BIG difference on emphasising the Horror of the 6th
world as opposed to the angst of the 5th.
____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 60
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:45:45 -0400 (EDT)
Manx wrote:
> >No, that's not what the book is about. To paraphrase Mike, he wants
> >to make Astral Space has dangerous to mages as the Matrix is to deckers.
> >There's stuff living in astral space, and it hasn't been well-defined yet.
>
> Then if that is the case it should be NOT be presented as being
> a cash in on White Wolf stuff. That is how I read it. There
> is a BIG difference on emphasising the Horror of the 6th
> world as opposed to the angst of the 5th.

I don't think you'll have anything to worry about. Personally, I'm
surprised anyone even thought to make the comparison, but I never saw
angst being a component of SR.
Message no. 61
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:51:48 -0400 (EDT)
Scott W wrote:
> ] Actually, Quick Start, which just came out at Gen Con and sells for $7.00
> ] US (And Lady J, OUCH! I can;t believe how they're gouging you Aussies!).
> ] They do include really watered down quick and dirty decking rules.
>
> Anybody have this yet? Wanna give us the ol' "buy it/borrow it" rundown?

I looked through it. A good start for anyone who wants to learn SR w/o
shelling out 30 clams. The adventure in the back is a B/E to a corp facility
and seemed like a lot of fun to folks I saw playing it.


> BTW, did anyone actually play Shadowrun? How did that go?

It was OK. Personally, I was disappointed at all the mistakes on the
and missing info on the characters, but the overall run was good.
Plenty of opportunity to have an intelligent plan work. I wish I had
advanced (or been easier to find, sigh), there was a lot of weird stuff
later on. I would have gotten to see Dvixen get royally pissed off again! :)


-Rich, NFSN
Message no. 62
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:14:47 +1000
>Manx wrote:
>> Then if that is the case it should be NOT be presented as being
>> a cash in on White Wolf stuff. That is how I read it. There
>> is a BIG difference on emphasising the Horror of the 6th
>> world as opposed to the angst of the 5th.
>
>I don't think you'll have anything to worry about. Personally, I'm
>surprised anyone even thought to make the comparison, but I never saw
>angst being a component of SR.
>

And neither should angst be a selling point for SR3.
The day we move towards that is the day that I burn
my collection whilst calling forth the foulest toxic
spirit that'll make the Cermak blast look like a picnic.

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 63
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:19:35 +1000
>>Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
>>since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
>>Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."
>
>Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
>micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
>difference will be addressed in M&M.
>Lady Jestyr

No prizes for guessing how come Lady J
knows so much about nanites and M&M...
____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 64
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:46:35 -0400 (EDT)
s
p
o
i
l
e
r

s
p
a
c
e


Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*********.html.com> writes:
> >Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
> >since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
> >Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."
>
> Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
> micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
> difference will be addressed in M&M.

What about the nanite weaponry that got a side mention in
R:AS? Is that going to be the level of technology we'll be seeing in
M&M? IIRC, the only purpose of those nanites was to multiply, and
produce heat.

Mark
Message no. 65
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:17:17 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 9:15:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > > You'll see... "E" stands in this case for Empress
> > > -K
> > Oh, we're getting another Shadowrun Line Developer?
>
>
> ROFLMAO!!! Yeah Twist, in perhaps another 20-30 years...
>
> -K
>


It's never too early to start. I will turn Clementine to the dark side. She
will embrace the Neo-Anarchists.



-Twist
"Empress Lord on High???? That just don't seem right."
Message no. 66
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:27:13 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 11:21:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
timburke@*******.com.au writes:

> >>Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
> >>since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
> >>Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."
> >
> >Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
> >micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
> >difference will be addressed in M&M.
> >Lady Jestyr
>
> No prizes for guessing how come Lady J
> knows so much about nanites and M&M...



LadyJestyr is working hard (I'd say "hard down-under" but it just sounds bad)
to ensure all our messy, spewing deaths come not with a bang but a whisper
IRL.

::sniff-wipe away tear:: She's the kind of woman I always dreamed about.





-Twist
"What's your pleasure? Demon-changing puzzlebox or a Tootsie Pop?"
Message no. 67
From: Tamino tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 02:40:31 +1000
At 11:46 12/08/99 -0400, Mark wrote:
>s
>p
>o
>i
>l
>e
>r
>
>s
>p
>a
>c
>e
>
>
>Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*********.html.com> writes:
>> >Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
>> >since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
>> >Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."
>>
>> Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
>> micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
>> difference will be addressed in M&M.
>
> What about the nanite weaponry that got a side mention in
>R:AS? Is that going to be the level of technology we'll be seeing in
>M&M? IIRC, the only purpose of those nanites was to multiply, and
>produce heat.
>
>Mark

Don't worry, the nanite "weaponry" will be dealt with in M&M :)








-Tamino ...All too easy

"ISTI MIRANT STELLA" - Bayeux Tapestry
tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Message no. 68
From: Bob Tockley arkham@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 02:45:02 +1000
>No prizes for guessing how come Lady J
>knows so much about nanites and M&M...

Hey, I'm sleeping with him too and I know squat all... \=)

(>) ARKHAM
"J'harim na;ori sal-sam'sa va;jon ten'wa e' Halheram."
Message no. 69
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:45:00 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 10:21:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
timburke@*******.com.au writes:

> >>Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
> >>since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
> >>Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."
> >
> >Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
> >micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
> >difference will be addressed in M&M.
> >Lady Jestyr
>
> No prizes for guessing how come Lady J
> knows so much about nanites and M&M...

I wonder ... as from what I hear, the micro-organism thing may be one option.
Nanites are multi-form in science fiction and science theory. There is no
reason they can't be so for SR.

-K
Message no. 70
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:46:22 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/1999 10:47:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
SHODAN+@***.EDU writes:

> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
>
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
>
> Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*********.html.com> writes:
> > >Actually, I don't think it's going to be all that earth-shattering,
> > >since nanites have been canon since first edition. Check out pg. 39,
> > >Shadowtech, in the section called "Cybersystem Implantation."
> >
> > Thing is, those nanites aren't real nanites at all; they're engineered
> > micro-organisms, which is somewhat different. However, I suspect that
> > difference will be addressed in M&M.
>
> What about the nanite weaponry that got a side mention in
> R:AS? Is that going to be the level of technology we'll be seeing in
> M&M? IIRC, the only purpose of those nanites was to multiply, and
> produce heat.

That's strange, after I looked at them again, there was *nothing* in there
about multiplying at all. They merely got active, really active, and that
activity caused that insidious, destructive, level of thermal damage (all of
which is internal and hard to deal with).

-K
Message no. 71
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:19:15 EDT
In a message dated 8/12/99 9:19:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> It's never too early to start. I will turn Clementine to the dark side.
She
>
> will embrace the Neo-Anarchists.
>
>
>
> -Twist
> "Empress Lord on High???? That just don't seem right."

Twist has a point.... It should be DEOH (in Training) (DO I really need to
explain it to ya'll?)
Message no. 72
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:48:19 +700
>> Then if that is the case it should be NOT be presented as being
>> a cash in on White Wolf stuff. That is how I read it. There
>> is a BIG difference on emphasising the Horror of the 6th
>> world as opposed to the angst of the 5th.

I don't think you'll have that problem until Blood mages, Toxic and Insect Shamans,
Vampires, and Ghosts become PC options.

As long as they remain on the other end of the stick and it's clear who 'the
bad guys' are we'll be ok.
Message no. 73
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:28:40
At 01:48 PM 8/12/99 +700, you wrote:
>>> Then if that is the case it should be NOT be presented as being
>>> a cash in on White Wolf stuff. That is how I read it. There
>>> is a BIG difference on emphasising the Horror of the 6th
>>> world as opposed to the angst of the 5th.
>
>I don't think you'll have that problem until Blood mages, Toxic and Insect
Shamans,
>Vampires, and Ghosts become PC options.
>
>As long as they remain on the other end of the stick and it's clear who 'the
>bad guys' are we'll be ok.


Well, I've been in campaigns where all of these (except ghosts, they're too
new) have been played by PC's, and those have been quite fun games.

Besides, with SR3, Shadowrunners aren't good guys. Hooders are the good
guys, and the focus is no longer on them. So as long as you remember 'the
bad guys' as being whoever is opposed to you, then what's the problem?

-The Hamm
Message no. 74
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:39:02 +1000
At 12:17 12/08/99 EDT Twist0059@***.com wrote
>-Twist
>"Empress Lord on High???? That just don't seem right."
>

DEOH sounds better.
Dark Empress On High.

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 75
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:39:00 +0200
Arcady wrote:
>
> I don't think you'll have that problem until Blood mages, Toxic and Insect Shamans,
> Vampires, and Ghosts become PC options.

Wheres the problem with that? It all depens on the general setting of
the game.

--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 76
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:38:33 EDT
In a message dated 8/13/99 5:46:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> They did add anchors (or whatever they're called) so that Ghosts cannot be
> banished without the item. I assume the book will also expand such
> restrictions. they also need to make some sort of "hiding place" for the
> spirit, so that you can't just wander into him while astral and gain too
> much
> knowledge. A backgtround count could help of course, but that gets
> suspiscious too


It's called a chain.




-Twist
Message no. 77
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:23:52 +1000
>> Anybody have this yet? Wanna give us the ol' "buy it/borrow it"
rundown?
>>
>I'd say that for most of us, it's a "Borrow It" book. It's SR Lite, for
>all intents and purposes.

<Dr. Evil>
"Shadowrun Lite... just one Calorie. Not Shadowrun enough."
</Dr. Evil>

*g*


Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 78
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:55:20 -0500
> >s
> >p
> >o
> >i
> >l
> >e
> >r
> >
> >s
> >p
> >a
> >c
> >e

Okay, sure, what the hell...?








Spoilers have always been here








> Don't worry, the nanite "weaponry" will be dealt with in M&M :)

I wasn't worried. Until now.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 79
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 00:59:55 EDT
In a message dated 8/13/1999 4:21:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
markf@******.com writes:

>
> > And he doesn't seem very fond of atmosphere books either
> >
> *sniff* I miss Tom.

You would...

-K
Message no. 80
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:52:09 -0700
>> > And he doesn't seem very fond of atmosphere books either
>> >
>> *sniff* I miss Tom.
>
>You would...
>
>-K

Hey! That's my line K!

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 81
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 05:42:13 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 1:54:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dvixen@****.com
writes:

> >> > And he doesn't seem very fond of atmosphere books either
> >> >
> >> *sniff* I miss Tom.
> >
> >You would...
> >
> >-K
>
> Hey! That's my line K!


Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean rules
system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in coordination
with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.




-Twist
Message no. 82
From: Bob Tockley arkham@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:47:32 +1000
>Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
>out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean rules
>system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in coordination
>with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.

*cracks up* It depends on your definitions of 'clean rules.' SR3 took
some short cuts with the rules that ended up screwing over the SR universe
(don't even get me started on changes to Astral Space and whatnot). Like
all things it comes down to how you want to play things. Personally
though, I'd rather have great atmosphere, decent writing, decent art, and
some tact and subtlety concerning plotlines than what's being produced for
SR3 now. I'm not saying SR2 wasn't without it's bad points, but compared
to SR3 there is no competition.

(>) ARKHAM
"Embrace the inevitable."
Message no. 83
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 06:57:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 6:48:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
arkham@*******.com.au writes:

> >Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
> >out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean
rules
>
> >system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in
> coordination
> >with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.
>
> *cracks up* It depends on your definitions of 'clean rules.' SR3 took
> some short cuts with the rules that ended up screwing over the SR universe
> (don't even get me started on changes to Astral Space and whatnot). Like
> all things it comes down to how you want to play things. Personally
> though, I'd rather have great atmosphere, decent writing, decent art, and
> some tact and subtlety concerning plotlines than what's being produced for
> SR3 now. I'm not saying SR2 wasn't without it's bad points, but compared
> to SR3 there is no competition.
>
> (>) ARKHAM


I'd rather have atmosphere over all else, too, but you have to admit before
Mulvihill came on the SR books were disjointed and scattered. I love the
new organization (the advancing magic cycle is my explanation for the new
astral space rules) and the layout of the books, and am generally happy with
the new core system book set. The atmosphere doesn't compare to Dowd's
intensity (his failing was placing that before unity of product, though, both
of which should be equal) but that's because Mulvihill doesn't want to
concentrate on atmosphere. He thinks SR should be very focused on the
business of shadowrunning only (but the BOO and 50 Years of the Awakening
books look promising). I think he is wrong in this criminal-only viewpoint,
but a lot of other people seem happy with it. His biggest crime was killing
the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. "Target" is soulless and
bland. The Neo-As, even if you didn't side with them, presented a flavor and
attitude that added to the Shadowrun world and benefited roleplaying. Just
reading the titles to people new to the game shows this point. You tell them
a title like "Target: Whatever" and it sounds like just a title, and not all
that unqiue or interesting. You say "The Neo-Anarchist's Guide To Real Life"
and it instantly gives the person an idea of the forces at work in the game
and a taste of flavor.




-Twist
Message no. 84
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:49:24 -0400
Once upon a time, Twist0059@***.com wrote;

>He thinks SR should be very focused on the business of shadowrunning only

And yet one the the earlier books under his watch was the Companion
which presented alterante campaigns. I don't think your statement
completely holds up.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 85
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:53:34 -0500
> >He thinks SR should be very focused on the business of shadowrunning only
>
> And yet one the the earlier books under his watch was the Companion
> which presented alterante campaigns. I don't think your statement
> completely holds up.

To amplify that, he's on record (I think in the very pages of the book
itself) as saying that one of the books he's most proud of is the Companion.
If anything, he's pulled the focus at times *away* from shadowruns, with
books like CYBERPIRATES and UNDERWORLD (both of which, incidentally, I
thought gave the game all sorts of atmosphere).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 86
From: Jalong1@***.com Jalong1@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 17:18:53 EDT
>The atmosphere doesn't compare to Dowd's intensity
>(his failing was placing that before unity of product, though, both
>of which should be equal) but that's because Mulvihill doesn't
>want to concentrate on atmosphere. He thinks SR should
>be very focused on the business of shadowrunning only
>(but the BOO and 50 Years of the Awakening books look promising).

IIRC Twist, Mike seemed to be going back to the basics of the game instead of
ignoring everything else. Considering that before this the game seemed to be
turning into a big 'everything is super magical and tied to ED to boot,'
going back to the basics makes sense.

>His biggest crime was killing
>the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. <<Snipped for reader
sanity>> Just
>reading the titles to people new to the game shows this point. You tell
them
>a title like "Target: Whatever" and it sounds like just a title, and not all

>that unique or interesting. You say "The Neo-Anarchist's Guide To Real
Life"
>and it instantly gives the person an idea of the forces at work in the game
>and a taste of flavor.

<activate sarcasm>
hmm, Target: Awakened Lands. Gee I wonder what that could be about. Nah not
informative at all Twist :)
<deactivate sarcasm>
Personally I mush prefer the Target books as that they are more immediately
useful to a GM (or player) rather than something that will sit on a shelf for
a while before its use becomes apparent (providing that you actually bought
the product in the first place). IMHO the big problem with the Neo - A's was
that there was too much flavor text at times causing a GM to have to hunt
thru books to find anything of interest, Time of which I didn't want to spend
looking. After all I'd rather be running the game instead of sitting there
looking for something or other. Flavor text is nice but it shouldn't be
overwhelming in a book.

Jalong1

"Expect me when you see me" - Galen (Crusade)
Message no. 87
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:04:21 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 10:50:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

> >He thinks SR should be very focused on the business of shadowrunning only
>
> And yet one the the earlier books under his watch was the Companion
> which presented alterante campaigns. I don't think your statement
> completely holds up.
>


I argued with him for four hours in a chat room about this. That's the case,
like it or not. Atmosphere out, shadowrunning in.



-Twist
Message no. 88
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:09:18 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 11:54:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> > >He thinks SR should be very focused on the business of shadowrunning only
> >
> > And yet one the the earlier books under his watch was the Companion
> > which presented alterante campaigns. I don't think your statement
> > completely holds up.
>
> To amplify that, he's on record (I think in the very pages of the book
> itself) as saying that one of the books he's most proud of is the
Companion.
> If anything, he's pulled the focus at times *away* from shadowruns, with
> books like CYBERPIRATES and UNDERWORLD (both of which, incidentally, I
> thought gave the game all sorts of atmosphere).


Cyberpirates and Underworld in fact both prove the point. Both are books
dedicated to commiting crimes, which is the definition of a shadowrun. The
Companion has only a very brief section listed at the end for alternate
campaigns. More likely Mike was proud of the rules expansion as a whole.



-Twist
Message no. 89
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:52:53 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 6:58:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> e thinks SR should be very focused on the
> business of shadowrunning only (but the BOO and 50 Years of the Awakening
> books look promising). I think he is wrong in this criminal-only
viewpoint,
>
> but a lot of other people seem happy with it. His biggest crime was
killing
>
> the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. "Target" is soulless and
> bland.

Of course, Twist is running a gang=level campaign where we are all basically
crimonals out for a buck, but hey ... :-)
Also, Neo-A's real life was different than teh earlier Neo-A's, both Tirs,
plus London etc. None of them fell under the Neo-A lable. So, way back when,
it woulda been Neo-A's Tir Tairngire, and now Target; Tir Tairngire. <shrug>
Message no. 90
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:24:45 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:23:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> Of course, Twist is running a gang=level campaign where we are all
basically
> crimonals out for a buck, but hey ... :-)
> Also, Neo-A's real life was different than teh earlier Neo-A's, both
Tirs,
>
> plus London etc. None of them fell under the Neo-A lable. So, way back
when,
>
> it woulda been Neo-A's Tir Tairngire, and now Target; Tir Tairngire.
<shrug>
>


You are working your way up the food chain. Stop complaing or the miniguns
will return. :-)




-Twist
Message no. 91
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:29:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:25:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> You are working your way up the food chain. Stop complaing or the miniguns
> will return. :-)

yeah, did I mention it was a gang-level campaign with a bunch of intiate mage
cyberzombie autocannon toting Lo Pan hunters?

:-)
Message no. 92
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:33:02 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:30:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> > You are working your way up the food chain. Stop complaing or the
miniguns
>
> > will return. :-)
>
> yeah, did I mention it was a gang-level campaign with a bunch of intiate
> mage
> cyberzombie autocannon toting Lo Pan hunters?
>
> :-)
>


No cyberzombies, only a couple initiates (come on, it was a Triad), a
mini-gun not autocannon (the sole difference being MGs are SR and ACs are
BT), they didn't tote they hardpointed, and you aren't hunting Lo-Pan you're
helping him.




-Twist
Message no. 93
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:40:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:34:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> No cyberzombies,

<yet>

>only a couple initiates (come on, it was a Triad),

<so far>

> mini-gun not autocannon (the sole difference being MGs are SR and ACs are
> BT), they didn't tote they hardpointed

<Rotary Autocannons are SR :-)

>and you aren't hunting Lo-Pan you're helping him.
>

<no THEY are the Lo Pan hunters> :-)

and, he complains because Morgan had her spirits rip ONE little fixer in half?
<sigh>
oh, and that chick in the hospital bed, she deserved to die too I don't care
whose daughter she was
<sigh>
and that phone? well, phones are evil, it deserved a lightning bolt

:-)
Message no. 94
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:45:55 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Twist0059@***.com <Twist0059@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such


>In a message dated 8/14/99 7:30:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Schizi@***.com
>writes:
>
>> > You are working your way up the food chain. Stop complaing or
the
>miniguns
>>
>> > will return. :-)
>>
>> yeah, did I mention it was a gang-level campaign with a bunch of
intiate
>> mage
>> cyberzombie autocannon toting Lo Pan hunters?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>
>
>No cyberzombies, only a couple initiates (come on, it was a Triad), a
>mini-gun not autocannon (the sole difference being MGs are SR and ACs
are
>BT), they didn't tote they hardpointed, and you aren't hunting Lo-Pan
you're
>helping him.


Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?


-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

*calls his dice bag the six-demon bag*
Message no. 95
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:47:09 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:41:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

>
> > No cyberzombies,
>
> <yet>

No comment.


> >only a couple initiates (come on, it was a Triad),
>
> <so far>


You're never happy.


> > mini-gun not autocannon (the sole difference being MGs are SR and ACs
are
>
> > BT), they didn't tote they hardpointed
>
> <Rotary Autocannons are SR :-)


Touche.

> >and you aren't hunting Lo-Pan you're helping him.
> >
>
> <no THEY are the Lo Pan hunters> :-)


Who says?


> and, he complains because Morgan had her spirits rip ONE little fixer in
> half?
> <sigh>

And the coma chick. And anyone else she can bolt or slice.

> oh, and that chick in the hospital bed, she deserved to die too I don't
care


Uh-huh.

> whose daughter she was
> <sigh>

Sanbourne.

> and that phone? well, phones are evil, it deserved a lightning bolt
>
> :-)
>

Sure, sure.




-Twist
Message no. 96
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:49:38 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:46:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

> Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
> semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?
not yet, but Morgan could be one :-)
some old man wants us to shove his soul down some girls throat or something
<shrug> we're getting paid, who cares. :-)
Message no. 97
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:50:16 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:46:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

>
> Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
> semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?
>
>
> -----
> AK404
>


Why such racism? I suppose anyone named Smith in America is related to Will
Smith, or Jones related to Tommy Lee Jones?

Now, if I told you about the Six Demon Bag, you'd have a case there. Oops,
nevermind that last part.




-Twist
Message no. 98
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:08:27 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 7:51:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> > Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
> > semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?
> not yet, but Morgan could be one :-)
> some old man wants us to shove his soul down some girls throat or
something
> <shrug> we're getting paid, who cares. :-)
>


That's what makes him one of the best. He cares and he pays attention.
Sheesh.




-Twist
Message no. 99
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:24:26 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Twist0059@***.com <Twist0059@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such


>In a message dated 8/14/99 7:46:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>angelkiller404@**********.com writes:
>
>>
>> Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own
a
>> semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?
>>
>>
>> -----
>> AK404
>>
>
>
>Why such racism? I suppose anyone named Smith in America is related
to Will
>Smith, or Jones related to Tommy Lee Jones?
>
>Now, if I told you about the Six Demon Bag, you'd have a case there.
Oops,
>nevermind that last part.


What? You don't remember "Big Trouble in Little China?"

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 100
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 21:01:19 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/99 8:52:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

>
>
> What? You don't remember "Big Trouble in Little China?"
Trust me, as soon as we heard the name, all of us went through the standard
lines;
"let me guess, you want a green eyed chica?"
Message no. 101
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 21:22:06 -0700
> > Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a

Is there something special about the name Lo Pan? A name I missed somewhere?

Otherwise the national average in the USA of today is about 12% Asian.
Higher on the coasts. Especially the west coast (San Francisco has equal
Asian and white populations). In 2060 it's only bound to be higher due to
all the non Japanese fleeing S.F. and all the turmoil in Asia itself
(especially China).

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 102
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:01:39 -0700
At 09:22 PM 8/14/99 -0700, Arcady wrote:

> > > Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
>
>Is there something special about the name Lo Pan? A name I missed somewhere?
>
>Otherwise the national average in the USA of today is about 12% Asian.
>Higher on the coasts. Especially the west coast (San Francisco has equal
>Asian and white populations). In 2060 it's only bound to be higher due to
>all the non Japanese fleeing S.F. and all the turmoil in Asia itself
>(especially China).

Lo Pan was the name of a powerful underworld wizard in the Kurt Russell
movie "Big Trouble in Little China."

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 103
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:36:42 -0700
> > > > Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
> >
> >Is there something special about the name Lo Pan? A name I
> missed somewhere?
> >
> >Otherwise the national average in the USA of today is about 12% Asian.
> >Higher on the coasts. Especially the west coast (San Francisco has equal
> >Asian and white populations). In 2060 it's only bound to be higher due to
> >all the non Japanese fleeing S.F. and all the turmoil in Asia itself
> >(especially China).
>
> Lo Pan was the name of a powerful underworld wizard in the Kurt Russell
> movie "Big Trouble in Little China."

Yeah, after I sent my memo I kind of figured this was one of those 'Vorpal
Bunny' things. As in all those obscure references that all the gamer's I
know laugh at while I sit there with no clue... :)

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 104
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 02:09:45 -0400
Once upon a time, Twist0059@***.com wrote;

>Cyberpirates and Underworld in fact both prove the point. Both are books
>dedicated to commiting crimes, which is the definition of a shadowrun.

Not really, shadowrunning was typically defined in the beginning of
doing the secret (and deniable) dirty work for and against corporations.
Just committing a crime is not a shadowrun although most shadowruns are
illegal in some way. Just the fact that the corporations are not the sole
force behind current shadowruns shows how far the game has gone.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 105
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 02:51:05 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/1999 4:43:33 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
> out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean
rules
> system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in
coordination
>
> with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.

Poort Twisty .... though its' good to see a person of the old school (Spike
would be proud.. ;-), there are moments when you just have to realize what
exactly is going on.

-K
Message no. 106
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 03:01:20 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/1999 5:05:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > And yet one the the earlier books under his watch was the
Companion
> > which presented alterante campaigns. I don't think your statement
> > completely holds up.
> I argued with him for four hours in a chat room about this. That's the
case,
> like it or not. Atmosphere out, shadowrunning in.

Twist, you once again stated the reason why you got your answers in the
direction and method you did. "...argued with him for four hours..."
GEESH...talk about timestealing for more important topics. Atmosphere is a
power in the hands of the GM/players even MORE so than the game IMO. Sure,
the game setting has the basics. But beyond that isn't so.

-K (you argued with him for four hours??? Damn, I'm surprised he didn't
tell you to get lost...he doesn't like to waste that kind of time that I've
ever seen)
Message no. 107
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 03:08:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/1999 6:48:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > >only a couple initiates (come on, it was a Triad),
> >
> > <so far>
>
>
> You're never happy.
>
OH GOD!!! MAKE IT STOP!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA ....

-K (in other words...look who's commenting too...)
Message no. 108
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:31:09 +0200
A404 wrote:
> Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
> semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?

Hey man,...you don't fuck with the three storms! :)

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 109
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:36:41 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 3:02:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

>
> Twist, you once again stated the reason why you got your answers in the
> direction and method you did. "...argued with him for four hours..."
> GEESH...talk about timestealing for more important topics. Atmosphere is
a
> power in the hands of the GM/players even MORE so than the game IMO.
Sure,
> the game setting has the basics. But beyond that isn't so.
>
> -K (you argued with him for four hours??? Damn, I'm surprised he didn't
> tell you to get lost...he doesn't like to waste that kind of time that
I've
> ever seen)


You seem mistaken about the nature of the chat. Arguing doesn't mean
fighting, it means point and counter-point. I told him I felt the atmosphere
of SR was being stripped out in the new products, he countered, and round we
went, arguing just what the point of Shadowrun should be and the nature of
shadowrunners. It wasn't a waste of time, and I didn't spur him on to it, we
were honestly debating the nature of shadowrunners and what should be
reflected in the sourcebooks.



-Twist
Message no. 110
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:39:17 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 3:10:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

>
> > > >only a couple initiates (come on, it was a Triad),
> > >
> > > <so far>
> >
> >
> > You're never happy.
> >
> OH GOD!!! MAKE IT STOP!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA ....
>
> -K (in other words...look who's commenting too...)


Who says I'm never happy? I'd say I'm never *completely* happy, but neither
is anyone, really. The only things that make a person completely happy are
the things they do for themselves, since everything else has to be moderated
to fit a median of experience and viewpoint.



-Twist
Message no. 111
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:50:29 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 2:10:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

>
> >Cyberpirates and Underworld in fact both prove the point. Both are books
> >dedicated to commiting crimes, which is the definition of a shadowrun.
>
> Not really, shadowrunning was typically defined in the beginning of
> doing the secret (and deniable) dirty work for and against corporations.
> Just committing a crime is not a shadowrun although most shadowruns are
> illegal in some way. Just the fact that the corporations are not the sole
> force behind current shadowruns shows how far the game has gone.


Well, I believe we all know the definition of shadowrunning and so it may
seem wrong for me to post it here, but here I go:

Shadowrun: n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in carrying out
plans which are illegal or quasilegal.
--WorldWide WordWatch, 2050 Update

So cyberpirates and criminal organizations would fall under the umbrella of
that definition. It's not typically what you think of when you think
shadowrunning, but it falls under that category anytime those two groups take
action. Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of shadowrunning
central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a not-so-great
thing other times. What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that new
players will come to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and we
like to commit crimes" instead of understanding the business of shadowrunning
in the context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents us.



-Twist
Message no. 112
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:00:55 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 9:32:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dv8@********.nl
writes:

> > Lo Pan? Where the heck are you running, Little China? Anyone own a
> > semi? Are you taking on the three storms, too?
>
> Hey man,...you don't fuck with the three storms! :)
>
> Dennis
>
> "Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."


Yeah, or the ape-thing......

And speaking of Things. I wonder how you could duplicate The Thing (from
Carpenter's remake) in Shadowrun? What Powers would it have, stats, essence,
ect? Couldn't only fire kill it? How long for the cellular takeover
attempts? It shouldn't be able to be seen on the astral, or else the
magicians will kill the threat of it too quickly. How would you handle the
multitude of attacks it is capable of?


-Twist
"Flamethrowers in CC. Just in the nick of time!"


-Twist
Message no. 113
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:02:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 2:52:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
> > out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean
> rules
> > system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in
> coordination
> >
> > with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.
>
> Poort Twisty .... though its' good to see a person of the old school (
> Spike
> would be proud.. ;-), there are moments when you just have to realize
what
> exactly is going on.
>
> -K


And this realization would be....?



-Twist
Message no. 114
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:59:20 -0400
Once upon a time, Twist0059@***.com wrote;

>> Not really, shadowrunning was typically defined in the beginning of
>> doing the secret (and deniable) dirty work for and against corporations.
>> Just committing a crime is not a shadowrun although most shadowruns are
>> illegal in some way. Just the fact that the corporations are not the sole
>> force behind current shadowruns shows how far the game has gone.
>
>
>Well, I believe we all know the definition of shadowrunning and so it may
>seem wrong for me to post it here, but here I go:
>
>Shadowrun: n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in carrying out
>plans which are illegal or quasilegal.
>--WorldWide WordWatch, 2050 Update

That was a weak, poor definition. If you whole heartedly believe
that is the absolute definition of a shadowrun then going up into a
building with a automatic weapon and start blasting away at the passers
by, or even the act of jaywalking. I don't think anybody is confused on
whether anybody would consider it a shadowrun. The early modules and
sourcebooks centered on corporate crime and this form the basis for the
early shadowruns. Organized crime and politics was a side items to corp
runs in Shadowrun until they were expanded upon later, much later. Corps
were the super power and everything else was inconsequential back then.
Be naive if you want but this was all that was originally given us.

>So cyberpirates and criminal organizations would fall under the umbrella of
>that definition. It's not typically what you think of when you think
>shadowrunning, but it falls under that category anytime those two groups
>take
>action. Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of
>shadowrunning
>central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a not-so-great
>thing other times. What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that
>new
>players will come to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and we
>like to commit crimes" instead of understanding the business of
>shadowrunning
>in the context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents us.

I'm going to go off track and get straight to the major failing of
your complaints. The stereotypical shadowrun type adventure is the
standard game being played out there. That is the product that sells. The
new material is getting straight to the core of what the unwashed masses
wants. While I love the old Neo-A's they did have very little useful
information for me to use in a game. I don't recommend these books to
anyone on limited funds or have a desire for the purely practical books.
NAGRL was a great atmosphere book but I never used any of the equipment
out of it because I didn't want to worry about dragging around the whole
book just for a few pages and for that reason it was never recommended
either because the information was not worth the investment (cost or
effort in my case). That is why these types of books are dead, and they
should be so they don't take the game with it.
There was a time that people complained how little useful
information was in the early Shadowrun books. That is why Shadowbeat sold
so poorly and only valued by those of us who enjoy the atmosphere books
(and also already have the other useful books). I love Shadowbeat but if
I had to choose between it and any other rulebook it would lose out.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 115
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:58:07 -0500
> Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of shadowrunning
> central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a not-so-great
> thing other times.

A game about shadowrunning, focussing on shadowrunning...this is a problem
how, exactly?

> What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that new players will
come
> to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and we like to commit
> crimes" instead of understanding the business of shadowrunning in the
> context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents us.

I guess I'm not seeing the lack of atmosphere. If anything, the atmosphere
is getting richer from where I'm sitting. Please clarify how there's a lack
of atmosphere in the recent (say, the last two years or so) crop of
material.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 116
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 14:51:58 -0400
At 11.59 08-15-99 -0400, you wrote:
>your complaints. The stereotypical shadowrun type adventure is the
>standard game being played out there. That is the product that sells. The

You are right. However, how many people run a non-staderd campaign?
Clearly a minority, but I would highly be surprised if it was less than
10%. If one-in-ten games were not of the "get hired, buy goodies, kill
several people, steal something, get out, get screwed; repeat as deisred"
(thnx Penta) flavor, then there is enough there for a smart company to get
intrested in. If there was a couple of books on alterante campaigns solely
(ie, CyberPirates) that were given a better send up, you would be able to
get new players into the game, and thus get more customers, thereby selling
more books as their intrest increases, and making more money.

>effort in my case). That is why these types of books are dead, and they
>should be so they don't take the game with it.

Latin is dead, but people still study it.
Perhaps the reason why those lines are "dead" is becuase there was no
further support. Mention the ideas and character types that they present
in sourcebooks (and not the "see page XX" kind of reference), and they
won't die out. I can name four players who like CP2020 simply becuase you
can play a newsie, or a rocker, or a fixer. That kind of flavor hasn't
killed CP. It won't kill SR, if FASA did thier marketing right and
mentioned things occasionally.
Hell, if I had more cash on hand, I'd be risking eBay right now becuase
there is someone with a Shadowbeat, simply for things like info about news
equipment and synthlinks. Second Operational Rule of Covert Operations:
Have a cover.



> There was a time that people complained how little useful
>information was in the early Shadowrun books. That is why Shadowbeat sold
>so poorly and only valued by those of us who enjoy the atmosphere books
>(and also already have the other useful books). I love Shadowbeat but if
>I had to choose between it and any other rulebook it would lose out.
>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
> "CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
> not as they ought to be."
> -The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce
>
> I am MC23
>
>
>
>
Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 117
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:47:38 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 12:11:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

> >
> >Shadowrun: n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in carrying
out
> >plans which are illegal or quasilegal.
> >--WorldWide WordWatch, 2050 Update
>
> That was a weak, poor definition. If you whole heartedly believe
> that is the absolute definition of a shadowrun then going up into a
> building with a automatic weapon and start blasting away at the passers
> by, or even the act of jaywalking. I don't think anybody is confused on
> whether anybody would consider it a shadowrun. The early modules and
> sourcebooks centered on corporate crime and this form the basis for the
> early shadowruns. Organized crime and politics was a side items to corp
> runs in Shadowrun until they were expanded upon later, much later. Corps
> were the super power and everything else was inconsequential back then.
> Be naive if you want but this was all that was originally given us.



I'm not being naive, I'm being technically accurate. You don't have to like
it if you don't want, but it's the way it is (or was).




-Twist
Message no. 118
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:53:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 12:11:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

> There was a time that people complained how little useful
> information was in the early Shadowrun books. That is why Shadowbeat sold
> so poorly and only valued by those of us who enjoy the atmosphere books
> (and also already have the other useful books). I love Shadowbeat but if
> I had to choose between it and any other rulebook it would lose out.


You can't really compare rulebooks and atmosphere books. Cyberpunk was
nothing but rulebooks and it is dead. It's rules and the context in which to
use them that make a long-lasting and favored game.
Message no. 119
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:54:33 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 12:59:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> > Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of shadowrunning
> > central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a not-so-great
> > thing other times.
>
> A game about shadowrunning, focussing on shadowrunning...this is a problem
> how, exactly?


The game isn't about shadowrunning, it's about living and working in the
world of Shadowrun. Big difference. One is just a series of jobs, the other
is a roleplaying game. Your choice.




-Twist
Message no. 120
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:57:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 12:59:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> > What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that new players will
> come
> > to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and we like to commit
> > crimes" instead of understanding the business of shadowrunning in the
> > context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents us.
>
> I guess I'm not seeing the lack of atmosphere. If anything, the atmosphere
> is getting richer from where I'm sitting. Please clarify how there's a
lack
> of atmosphere in the recent (say, the last two years or so) crop of
> material.
>


Just look at the books released in the last couple years. You have books
offering jobs (BitB and Shutdown) and rulebooks and place books. It's all a
set up for shadowruns, not a sense of what living in the world of shadowrun
is like. (Not everying is a job or a travel brochure.) The closest we've
come so far is the "Effect of magic on religion" section in MitS as it deals
with the standard world most people live in and the effect the Shadowrun
changes has had on them. But that was just a few pages in one book.




-Twist
Message no. 121
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:21:53 -0400
On 15 Aug 99, at 9:36, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> You seem mistaken about the nature of the chat. Arguing doesn't mean
> fighting, it means point and counter-point. I told him I felt the
> atmosphere of SR was being stripped out in the new products, he countered,
> and round we went, arguing just what the point of Shadowrun should be and
> the nature of shadowrunners. It wasn't a waste of time, and I didn't spur
> him on to it, we were honestly debating the nature of shadowrunners and
> what should be reflected in the sourcebooks.

So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should
be like? Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)


---
Jared: We were being shot at!
Pandora: Is the deer kicking your ass?
-- Jared, Prince of Amber explaining
to Pandora, Princess of Amber,
why they quit hunting


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 122
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:42:07 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 9:34:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

>
> > You seem mistaken about the nature of the chat. Arguing doesn't mean
> > fighting, it means point and counter-point. I told him I felt the
> > atmosphere of SR was being stripped out in the new products, he
countered,
> > and round we went, arguing just what the point of Shadowrun should be and
> > the nature of shadowrunners. It wasn't a waste of time, and I didn't
spur
> > him on to it, we were honestly debating the nature of shadowrunners and
> > what should be reflected in the sourcebooks.
>
> So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
> Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should
> be like? Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)
>
>


I was a player voicing my opinion, not telling him what to do. What's wrong
with that?




-Twist
Message no. 123
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:57:41 -0400 (EDT)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:21 PM 8/15/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
:So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
:Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should
:be like? Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)

Considering he's an end-user of the product that Mike's developing in
the first place, one of the many consumers who's money it is that
provides FASA Corp. with the income from which they pay Mike's
salary, what's wrong with telling the guy what he'd like to see in
future products? :)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>;

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-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
Message no. 124
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:26:52 -0700
> > him on to it, we were honestly debating the nature of shadowrunners and
> > what should be reflected in the sourcebooks.
>
> So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
> Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should
> be like? Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)
>

Well;

As a consumer of the game; isn't that Twist's very job? Like all of us.

A line developer who fails to solicit and also listen to his consumer is a
fool (and/or works for Hero games). Hopefully the long term will prove
otherwise for FASA. For their sake's I'd have to hope either that all gamers
fantasize about being purposeless amoral thugs or that FASA has more tricks
up it's sleeve and this is just a phase of that.

It was the complex political elements of things like the Neo-As vs. the
corps and with the Shadow community straddling an unclear line between them
that first caught my eye about the setting. That and the idea of a game that
didn't paint orks & native americans as evil savages waiting to be offed...

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 125
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:26:17 -0400
On 15 Aug 99, at 21:42, Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> > So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
> > Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should be like?
> > Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)
> >
> >
>
>
> I was a player voicing my opinion, not telling him what to do. What's
> wrong with that?

Nothing at all, if that's what you do. Four hours seems a bit
long for that though.. anyways...

---
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept
The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those
People I Had To Kill Because They Pissed Me Off.
-- ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 126
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:56:58 -0400
Once upon a time, Twist0059@***.com wrote;

>I'm not being naive, I'm being technically accurate. You don't have to like
>it if you don't want, but it's the way it is (or was).

Technically accurate? By quoting a fictional definition (which in
turn is a quote at that) which is a non-standard reference (neither legal
nor even a dictionary)? And when it's a slang reference to boot? Just be
honest with us, you're trolling aren't you?
It's loose summations like that which make horoscopes believable
because its so vague you can apply it to everyone. Your blind obedience
to that definition means that jaywalking is a shadowrun. Nobody else out
here shares that belief with you, because we know that is wrong.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 127
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:30:17 -0400 (EDT)
At 08:54 PM 8/15/99 EDT, Twist0059@***.com wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 8/15/99 12:59:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
>writes:
>
>> > Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of shadowrunning
>> > central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a not-so-great
>> > thing other times.
>>
>> A game about shadowrunning, focussing on shadowrunning...this is a problem
>> how, exactly?
>
>
>The game isn't about shadowrunning, it's about living and working in the
>world of Shadowrun. Big difference. One is just a series of jobs, the
other
>is a roleplaying game. Your choice.
>
While you got part of it right, the rest is dead wrong.

It is indeed your choice, but the game *IS* 100% about Shadowrunners and
their lives. Otherwise, the name of the game would be something different.

This is a topic you've flogged to death, along with the horse and most of
the other barnyard animals. I humbly suggest you let it drop.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 128
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:48:23 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Twist0059@***.com <Twist0059@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 16 August 1999 02:56
Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such


>In a message dated 8/15/99 12:59:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
remo@***.net
>writes:
>
>> > Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of
shadowrunning
>> > central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a
not-so-great
>> > thing other times.
>>
>> A game about shadowrunning, focussing on shadowrunning...this is a
problem
>> how, exactly?
>
>
>The game isn't about shadowrunning, it's about living and working in
the
>world of Shadowrun. Big difference. One is just a series of jobs,
the other
>is a roleplaying game. Your choice.

In this case, a series of jobs IS the game we know and love.
If you cant fill in the gaps between jobs with interesting and
convincing
downtime for the characters, perhaps you should try harder.

IMHO, there has been more than enough atmosphere in all the newer
products
thats one of the things we like about FASA, the dynamism and flavour.

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 129
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:49:45 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Twist0059@***.com <Twist0059@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 16 August 1999 02:59
Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such


>In a message dated 8/15/99 12:59:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
remo@***.net
>writes:
>
>> > What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that new players
will
>> come
>> > to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and we like
to commit
>> > crimes" instead of understanding the business of shadowrunning
in the
>> > context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents
us.
>>
>> I guess I'm not seeing the lack of atmosphere. If anything, the
atmosphere
>> is getting richer from where I'm sitting. Please clarify how
there's a
>lack
>> of atmosphere in the recent (say, the last two years or so) crop
of
>> material.
>>
>
>
>Just look at the books released in the last couple years. You have
books
>offering jobs (BitB and Shutdown) and rulebooks and place books.
It's all a
>set up for shadowruns, not a sense of what living in the world of
shadowrun
>is like. (Not everying is a job or a travel brochure.) The closest
we've
>come so far is the "Effect of magic on religion" section in MitS as
it deals
>with the standard world most people live in and the effect the
Shadowrun
>changes has had on them. But that was just a few pages in one book.

Most of the thigs you are bitching about are things you should relish
doing yourself.
Most RPGs I've ever played presented rules and a basic world setting
and assumed
that GMs wanted the fun task of fleshing that out.. I know I do

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 130
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:15:44 -0400 (EDT)
Bob Tockley wrote:
>
> >Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
> >out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean rules
> >system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in coordination
> >with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.
>
> *cracks up* It depends on your definitions of 'clean rules.' SR3 took
> some short cuts with the rules that ended up screwing over the SR universe
> (don't even get me started on changes to Astral Space and whatnot).

Well, the magic changes (I think) were partially done to get rid of the
"astral pearl harbor" meaneuver than the problem with Fat Bacteria. At
lest now the magic system makes sense and has less inconsistencies.


> Like all things it comes down to how you want to play things. Personally
> though, I'd rather have great atmosphere, decent writing, decent art, and
> some tact and subtlety concerning plotlines than what's being produced for
> SR3 now.

And what's lacking in the subtlety for SR3 plot-line? (Such as it is so far.)
Message no. 131
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:02:27 CST
>From: runnerpaul@*****.com

>Considering he's an end-user of the product that Mike's developing in
>the first place, one of the many consumers who's money it is that
>provides FASA Corp. with the income from which they pay Mike's
>salary, what's wrong with telling the guy what he'd like to see in
>future products? :)


For 4 hours tho??? :)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 132
From: Matt Teixeira MTeixeira@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:20:27 -0400
Hoi chummers,

Most of you have been playing this game for some time so your thoughts on
this topic are a bit skewed (you all think you have a good feel for the
shadowrunning universe). I'm new to the game so I'll put in a couple of
thoughts.

I think Twist makes some good points. A book on the real world in the year
2060 would be good, especially for those new to the game. We don't
necessarily have the full flavor for the game and the atmosphere. A book
that covers the typical day in the life of a low lifestyle runner, maybe one
for a mid lifstyle and one for a high lifestyle (I use this as an example
only) would give us a feel for life in the streets. When someone makes a
call on the trid unit, what does it look like? Does every apt and home have
one? What types of shows are on the trid? What sports are played? What is
society like? Lots of questions to be asked...

If you don't have Shadowbeat and NAGRL, what do you have to help you get the
"flavor" of the game? Let's assume you have read none of the novels
(Shadowrun, Gibson, Snow Crash, others...) or seen any of the movies (Blade
Runner, etc), but you saw the rules for Shadowrun in the store and it looked
cool, where would you get your ideas from? Should the rule book have more of
this type of information in it so that you are not forced to buy additional
books to understand the game world?

Another type of player is in his/her 30's, wife and kids and saw the
Shadowrun rules on the shelf and he was interested. Couple of guys at work
mentioned playing so he/she has a group to play. He/she doesn't have much
time to be "creative" and write materials, he/she just wants to buy a couple
of adventures and the rules and get going. Where does he/she get the
"flavor" of the game from?

True, there are some places to get "ideas" and "atmosphere" from.
Movies and
novels (the novels help me quite a bit for ideas...). But that requires time
and availability to acquire and read the novels (some are no longer
available). Sourcebooks like NAGNA, NAGRL and Shadowbeat are hard to find
these days (but they can be found). So what does the new gamer have to use?

Twist is not bitching, whining or complaining. He is making a valid
observation on a reference he thinks the game could use. Maybe those of you
that have been playing for years think it's not necessary. And it may not be
for you. But there are others that would like to see this kind of reference
made available. And for those of you who don't want it, I'll bet you buy it
if it is published anyway...

Just another opinion from one of those that may or may not be "creatively
challenged" but still enjoys the game...
Message no. 133
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:05:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 7:56:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> The game isn't about shadowrunning, it's about living and working in the
> world of Shadowrun. Big difference. One is just a series of jobs, the
> other
> is a roleplaying game. Your choice.

Twist, you have exceeded the boundaries of goofiness at this point.

You once again, have answered your own statements, all you have to do is flip
the answers and the questions.

You aren't wrong...just backasswards... ;-P

-K
Message no. 134
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:30:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 8:38:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> You seem mistaken about the nature of the chat. Arguing doesn't mean
> fighting, it means point and counter-point. I told him I felt the
> atmosphere
> of SR was being stripped out in the new products, he countered, and round
we
>
> went, arguing just what the point of Shadowrun should be and the nature of
> shadowrunners. It wasn't a waste of time, and I didn't spur him on to it,
> we
> were honestly debating the nature of shadowrunners and what should be
> reflected in the sourcebooks.

Okay Twist, *that* I can believe. But "Arguing" is NOT "Debating".
Debating
can, and should, be a constructive tool. Arguing rarely ever is.

-K
Message no. 135
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:08:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 8:43:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> I was a player voicing my opinion, not telling him what to do. What's
wrong
>
> with that?

Not a thing actually.

But you way of communicating the outcomes and events of that Chat have been
incredibly ... well ... OFF!!!!

-K
Message no. 136
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:33:16 -0500
> In a message dated 8/13/1999 4:21:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> markf@******.com writes:
>
> >
> > > And he doesn't seem very fond of atmosphere books either
> > >
> > *sniff* I miss Tom.
>
> You would...
>
Um, what exactly is this supposed to mean?

(As if it were a sin to miss Tom)
Message no. 137
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:28:49 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/1999 1:57:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.com writes:

> And when it's a slang reference to boot? Just be
> honest with us, you're trolling aren't you?
^^^^^^^^^

Oh god...MC23, you *HAD* to dredge an image like that up, didn't you????

-K
Message no. 138
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:48:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/1999 11:40:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
markf@******.com writes:

> > > *sniff* I miss Tom.
> >
> > You would...
> >
> Um, what exactly is this supposed to mean?
>
> (As if it were a sin to miss Tom)

There are mixed stories and opinions that people have of Tom here Mark. One
of them is the fact that Tom would not, nor could he, answer the question to
the same person if asked more than once, the same way, twice. It happened
with someone I know, and to myself.

I later discovered, after going heavy net-interactive, that Tom had performed
this little "I'll answer his question *this* way today" function as a general
rule of thumb for him. In the end, that can make for some very confused
players and GMs in general.

-K
Message no. 139
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:30:33 -0500
> > >He thinks SR should be very focused on the business of shadowrunning
> only
> >
> > And yet one the the earlier books under his watch was the
> Companion
> > which presented alterante campaigns. I don't think your statement
> > completely holds up.
> >
>
>
> I argued with him for four hours in a chat room about this. That's the
> case,
> like it or not. Atmosphere out, shadowrunning in.
>
He actually said this? (I was running on the assumption that this was what
you had picked up from the books - of which I agreed with). Do you have any
remembrances of this conversation as to why?
Message no. 140
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:45:12 +700
>>Considering he's an end-user of the product that Mike's developing in
>>the first place, one of the many consumers who's money it is that
>>provides FASA Corp. with the income from which they pay Mike's
>>salary, what's wrong with telling the guy what he'd like to see in
>>future products? :)
>
>For 4 hours tho??? :)

If you could get the ear of the lead developer of your favorite product for
four hours all to yourself wouldn't you go for it? I know I would. :)
Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 141
From: Bob Tockley arkham@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 05:27:58 +1000
>Well, the magic changes (I think) were partially done to get rid of the
>"astral pearl harbor" meaneuver than the problem with Fat Bacteria. At
>lest now the magic system makes sense and has less inconsistencies.

It has just as many inconsistancies as it did before -- they're just
different parts of the system. What partly made SR2 magic interesting was
the fact that it had some of the complexities of a real science... Like in
real life, there's a general rule for something and then there's six to
eight exceptions to that rule that can't be explained (oh sure, there are
theories, but they can't be conclusively proven -- strangely like SR2
magic...).

Yes, it is magic, and yes, it is a science -- but it's not an exact
science and from what's been written about it in various sourcebooks I
doubt any human alive could possibly comprehend all the complexities of it.
Hmmm.... Better not go any further, lest I start on a tirade...

>And what's lacking in the subtlety for SR3 plot-line? (Such as it is so far.)

How about subtlety?

(>) ARKHAM
"Embrace the inevitable."
Message no. 142
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:45:00 -0400 (EDT)
Bob Tockley wrote:
> >Well, the magic changes (I think) were partially done to get rid of the
> >"astral pearl harbor" meaneuver than the problem with Fat Bacteria. At
> >lest now the magic system makes sense and has less inconsistencies.
>
> It has just as many inconsistancies as it did before -- they're just
> different parts of the system.

I'm curious, could you list them?


> What partly made SR2 magic interesting was the fact that it had some of the
> complexities of a real science... Like in real life, there's a general rule
> for something and then there's six to eight exceptions to that rule that
> can't be explained

I won't argue your claim, but in a game, having a magic system that's
supposed to be consistent include 6 to 8 exceptions can get really
annoying and bog down the game, and make getting the feel for it very hard.


> >And what's lacking in the subtlety for SR3 plot-line? (Such as it is so far.)
>
> How about subtlety?

Again, I'd like an example, just so I understand where you're coming from.
Message no. 143
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:38:30 CST
>From: "Matt Teixeira" <MTeixeira@*******.com>
(THE BIGGEST SNIP tm)

Matt does make a good point. However, I've been the new person who had to
figure out what was what in the SR universe by myself. However, I managed.
Know why? THE NOVELS. They've fleshed stuff out tremendously. Personally,
I hate it when the company gives out too much detail on what the world is.
IMO FASA (and a lot of other rpg compainies) have hit the nail on the head
with the idea of using novels to flesh out the world.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 144
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:41:15 -0500
> > Hey, Dowd gave a lot of feel for Shadowrun with poor organization and
> > out-dated rules, while Mulvihill gives great organization and a clean
> rules
> > system with poor atmosphere. It's best to use the old books in
> coordination
> >
> > with the new to get the best of what Shadowrun should be.
>
> Poort Twisty .... though its' good to see a person of the old school
> (Spike
> would be proud.. ;-), there are moments when you just have to realize
> what
> exactly is going on.
>
> -K
>
So, for those in the know, what exactly is going on?
Message no. 145
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:50:48 -0700
Geoffrey Haacke wrote:

> >From: "Matt Teixeira" <MTeixeira@*******.com>
> (THE BIGGEST SNIP tm)
>
> Matt does make a good point. However, I've been the new person who had to
> figure out what was what in the SR universe by myself. However, I managed.
> Know why? THE NOVELS. They've fleshed stuff out tremendously. Personally,
> I hate it when the company gives out too much detail on what the world is.
> IMO FASA (and a lot of other rpg compainies) have hit the nail on the head
> with the idea of using novels to flesh out the world.

Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least, EXTREMELY hard to get. I
can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a minor, and hence have
no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those bookstores apparently have
something against SR. They disavow the SR novel line's very existence. But,
Btech is hugely popular. So its stocked.:/ *sigh*

John
Message no. 146
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:51:36 CST
>From: "Arcady"<arcady@***.net>

>If you could get the ear of the lead developer of your favorite product for
>four hours all to yourself wouldn't you go for it? I know I would. :)


Depends on the game. Some of developers don't seem to have a lot to say :)


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Message no. 147
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:11:44 -0400
Penta wrote:

> Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
>
> > >From: "Matt Teixeira" <MTeixeira@*******.com>
> > (THE BIGGEST SNIP tm)
> >
> > Matt does make a good point. However, I've been the new person who had to
> > figure out what was what in the SR universe by myself. However, I managed.
> > Know why? THE NOVELS. They've fleshed stuff out tremendously. Personally,
> > I hate it when the company gives out too much detail on what the world is.
> > IMO FASA (and a lot of other rpg compainies) have hit the nail on the head
> > with the idea of using novels to flesh out the world.
>
> Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least, EXTREMELY hard to get. I
> can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a minor, and hence have
> no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those bookstores apparently have
> something against SR. They disavow the SR novel line's very existence. But,
> Btech is hugely popular. So its stocked.:/ *sigh*
>
> John

I agree with you there. In the position of having little money, and even smaller
availability, I haven't read but one novel, and the things that people mention from
them lose me. I have yet to find a library that has any. I think its a good idea
*in theory* but doesn't pan out well in practice. Perhaps if the books were a
little more available it would be better.

Wildfire
Message no. 148
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:12:18 CST
>Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least, EXTREMELY hard to
>get. I
>can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a minor, and hence
>have
>no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those bookstores apparently
>have
>something against SR. They disavow the SR novel line's very existence. But,
>Btech is hugely popular. So its stocked.:/ *sigh*
>

Actually, that's really funny (as in humorous). I first got intersted in SR
by reading the novels when I was 16. I didn't actually get the sourcebook
until I was 20. Yeah, it was slow going getting novels, but hey, I'm the
patient type. :) Also, most bookstores will oreder in a novel you want as
long as it's not OOP.



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 149
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:20:45 CST
>From: Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>

>I agree with you there. In the position of having little money, and even
>smaller
>availability, I haven't read but one novel, and the things that people
>mention from
>them lose me. I have yet to find a library that has any. I think its a
>good idea
>*in theory* but doesn't pan out well in practice. Perhaps if the books
>were a
>little more available it would be better.


Hmmm. I must have been lucky then. Where I grew up there was 1 bookstore,
no rpg or comic stores, and I still managed to amass a collection of SR
novels. Mind you that was back a few years (god I'm starting to feel old),
but I can't see how that would make a lot of difference.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 150
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:20:31 -0500
> >Well, I believe we all know the definition of shadowrunning and so it may
>
> >seem wrong for me to post it here, but here I go:
> >
> >Shadowrun: n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in carrying
> out
> >plans which are illegal or quasilegal.
> >--WorldWide WordWatch, 2050 Update
>
> That was a weak, poor definition. If you whole heartedly believe
> that is the absolute definition of a shadowrun then going up into a
> building with a automatic weapon and start blasting away at the passers
> by, or even the act of jaywalking. I don't think anybody is confused on
> whether anybody would consider it a shadowrun. The early modules and
> sourcebooks centered on corporate crime and this form the basis for the
> early shadowruns. Organized crime and politics was a side items to corp
> runs in Shadowrun until they were expanded upon later, much later. Corps
> were the super power and everything else was inconsequential back then.
> Be naive if you want but this was all that was originally given us.
>
Was this a fault of early SR or just that they hadn't gotten around to
writing it yet. i.e., I can't think of a single sourcebook that didn't harp
on organized crime and other such 'underground' details. Granted, they
didn't have their own book, but they were there.

> >So cyberpirates and criminal organizations would fall under the umbrella
> of
> >that definition. It's not typically what you think of when you think
> >shadowrunning, but it falls under that category anytime those two groups
> >take
> >action. Mike has concentrated his efforts on making the act of
> >shadowrunning
> >central to the game, which is a great thing sometimes and a not-so-great
> >thing other times. What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that
>
> >new
> >players will come to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and
> we
> >like to commit crimes" instead of understanding the business of
> >shadowrunning
> >in the context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents us.
>
> I'm going to go off track and get straight to the major failing of
> your complaints. The stereotypical shadowrun type adventure is the
> standard game being played out there. That is the product that sells. The
> new material is getting straight to the core of what the unwashed masses
> wants. While I love the old Neo-A's they did have very little useful
> information for me to use in a game. I don't recommend these books to
> anyone on limited funds or have a desire for the purely practical books.
>
Here's where we get down to brass tacks (?). You want "practical" books.
Others want "background" books.

> NAGRL was a great atmosphere book but I never used any of the equipment
> out of it because I didn't want to worry about dragging around the whole
> book just for a few pages and for that reason it was never recommended
> either because the information was not worth the investment (cost or
> effort in my case). That is why these types of books are dead, and they
> should be so they don't take the game with it.
>
I don't think atmosphere books drag the game down with it. Just because the
book doesn't have a rule in it does not make it useless. The other side
could be mentioned as well, all these Rule books are dragging the game down
with them. Either side could argue either point.

I think the question comes down to this: What do you want out of SR? Do you
want a vibrant, living world? An excellent rules system? A balance between
them?
Message no. 151
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:30:38 -0500
> > What I fear with the lack of atmosphere books is that new players will
> come
> > to the game thinking of it as just "We're criminals and we like to
> commit
> > crimes" instead of understanding the business of shadowrunning in the
> > context of the rich gestalt that the Shadowrun world presents us.
>
> I guess I'm not seeing the lack of atmosphere. If anything, the
> atmosphere
> is getting richer from where I'm sitting. Please clarify how there's a
> lack
> of atmosphere in the recent (say, the last two years or so) crop of
> material.
>
I don't think it's a question of no atmosphere. You couldn't very well have
a game with elves and guns and trolls and magic and decking without some
atmosphere. I think the comparison lies in the 'lessening' of atmosphere.
Message no. 152
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:50:51 -0700
Geoffrey Haacke wrote:

> >Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least, EXTREMELY hard to
> >get. I
> >can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a minor, and hence
> >have
> >no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those bookstores apparently
> >have
> >something against SR. They disavow the SR novel line's very existence. But,
> >Btech is hugely popular. So its stocked.:/ *sigh*
> >
>
> Actually, that's really funny (as in humorous). I first got intersted in SR
> by reading the novels when I was 16. I didn't actually get the sourcebook
> until I was 20. Yeah, it was slow going getting novels, but hey, I'm the
> patient type. :) Also, most bookstores will oreder in a novel you want as
> long as it's not OOP.

I asked. Twas a Barnes&Noble. From everything I've heard, they use central
distribution warehouses....Well, I got this from a salesperson who, I admit,
really wanted to help, "The warehouse in Colts Neck won't stock it. It doesn't
sell in volume enough. We can't order from anywhere but the warehouse."OK. This
salesperson was new, so....Can somebody confirm that for me? Was this
salesperson on crack, or is it real? I've heard variations on the theme EVERY
time. There are NO other bookstores within even reasonable DRIVING distance,
so...

John
Message no. 153
From: Demosthenes Three demosthenes_3@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 15:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
>> >  *sniff* I miss Tom.
>>
>> You would...
>>
>Um, what exactly is this supposed to mean?
>
>(As if it were a sin to miss Tom)

Yeah. It is.
Tom was a pud.
Ever wonder WHY he got dumped into FASA Interactive????

----------
Demosthenes Three

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Message no. 154
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:00:13 +700
>> >Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least, EXTREMELY hard to
get. I
>> >can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a minor, and hence
have
>> >no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those bookstores apparently


>time. There are NO other bookstores within even reasonable DRIVING distance,

>so...

Can't you get a parent to order them for you from amazon or fasa?
Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 155
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:05:48 -0700
Arcady wrote:

> >> >Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least, EXTREMELY hard to
> get. I
> >> >can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a minor, and
hence
> have
> >> >no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those bookstores
apparently
>
> >time. There are NO other bookstores within even reasonable DRIVING distance,
>
> >so...
>
> Can't you get a parent to order them for you from amazon or fasa?

Maybe. Except for the fact that, well....my parents have begun to
show...disapproval of my RPG habit. So I giotta pay with my own cash. And both
require either: A. A checking account or B. A credit card. I have neither.

John
Message no. 156
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:51:04 -0400
At 21.21 08-15-99 -0400, you wrote:
>So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
>Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should
>be like? Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)

Why the hell not?
It is called customer feed back, and it matters more for long term
survival than looking at the bottom line and making more of the same kind
of stuff you are the moment. If you don't listen to customers, you won't
have customers.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 157
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:53:16 -0400
At 12.20 08-16-99 -0400, you wrote:
>shadowrunning universe). I'm new to the game so I'll put in a couple of
>thoughts.

Don't be stingy- if you have more than a couple, empty that magazine.

<Whole buncha points snipped here>
>society like? Lots of questions to be asked...

I won't speak for Twist, but this is the kind of thing (along with a good
World Almanac-type thingy) that I would give my left nut for.

>If you don't have Shadowbeat and NAGRL, what do you have to help you get the
>"flavor" of the game?

Beg people that have them to send you the abridged version of it.

Question for those who claim that "atmosphere books" don't sell: If
things like Shadowbeat and the Neo-Anarchist books didn't sell, why are
they in such high demand?

>these days (but they can be found). So what does the new gamer have to use?

See above. However, it is going to take a while, and maybe some shouting.
(Thnx Scott, again)
You can also look at B&N, Amazon and eBay for used versions, but for a
book that might be falling apart (you can't tell, becuase you can't examine
it) that has a cover price of $15 and pay $30 for it.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 158
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:09:48 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 12:03:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
knight_errant30@*******.com writes:

>
> >Considering he's an end-user of the product that Mike's developing in
> >the first place, one of the many consumers who's money it is that
> >provides FASA Corp. with the income from which they pay Mike's
> >salary, what's wrong with telling the guy what he'd like to see in
> >future products? :)
>
>
> For 4 hours tho??? :)

Actually, the AOL chats can easily last that long, and it most likely wasn't
the only subject at the time, so it is not too bad.
Message no. 159
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:09:39 -0700
There's also money orders that you can get at the post office.

May not work for Amazon or FASA but it will with eBay.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Penta
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 7:06 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such
>
>
> Arcady wrote:
>
> > >> >Easy to say, but....Those novels are, for me at least,
> EXTREMELY hard to
> > get. I
> > >> >can only get them from brick-and-mortar bookstores (am a
> minor, and hence
> > have
> > >> >no credit card, so Amazon and such are *out*.). Those
> bookstores apparently
> >
> > >time. There are NO other bookstores within even reasonable
> DRIVING distance,
> >
> > >so...
> >
> > Can't you get a parent to order them for you from amazon or fasa?
>
> Maybe. Except for the fact that, well....my parents have begun to
> show...disapproval of my RPG habit. So I giotta pay with my own
> cash. And both
> require either: A. A checking account or B. A credit card. I have neither.
>
> John
>
>
>
Message no. 160
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:22:57 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 12:43:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > I was a player voicing my opinion, not telling him what to do. What's
> wrong
> >
> > with that?
>
> Not a thing actually.
>
> But you way of communicating the outcomes and events of that Chat have
been
> incredibly ... well ... OFF!!!!
>
> -K


Actually, they've been dead-on accurate.



-Twist
Message no. 161
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:41:38 -0400
At 18.09 08-16-99 -0700, you wrote:
>May not work for Amazon or FASA but it will with eBay.

It also works with Amazon and B&N. You can also get a Western Union money
order for about a half the cost, but it may not be as widely accepted.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 162
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:41:38 -0400
At 18.09 08-16-99 -0700, you wrote:
>May not work for Amazon or FASA but it will with eBay.

It also works with Amazon and B&N. You can also get a Western Union money
order for about a half the cost, but it may not be as widely accepted.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 163
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:10:22 -0700
> Question for those who claim that "atmosphere books" don't sell: If
> things like Shadowbeat and the Neo-Anarchist books didn't sell, why are
> they in such high demand?

Simple;

They were put out too early. When they premiered SR was a new game and
everyone was busy buying the rulebooks and the people playing for just
actions sake were still in it in large numbers.

Also, setting books sell, but mostly only to GMs and players who like to
develop deeper characters. A smaller crowd than players and GMs combined.

When a new player joins, a lot of them start out just wanting to play. And
then they want to get all the toys. Only after that do they start wondering
what color the sky is.

And lastly; they gave up too soon. A lot of people have to 'wind up'
interest in these setting books. Of course there are some like myself who
want them from day one. But a lot of people start off small in
interest/budget and then build up.

> >these days (but they can be found). So what does the new gamer
> have to use?

http://www.ebay.com

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 164
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
> It also works with Amazon and B&N. You can also get a Western Union
money order for about a half the cost, but it may not be as widely
accepted.
>
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> Tengu


Please note, this is NOT the case for Australia. Over here it's cheaper
to get an International Money Order than a Western Union ($8 vs. $20).

Just thought you guys should know...
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 165
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:46:58 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 1:38:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, markf@******.com
writes:

> > I argued with him for four hours in a chat room about this. That's the
> > case,
> > like it or not. Atmosphere out, shadowrunning in.
> >
> He actually said this? (I was running on the assumption that this was what
> you had picked up from the books - of which I agreed with). Do you have any
> remembrances of this conversation as to why?


The conversation was about the change-up between the "old, outdated SR" and
the "darker, more gritty SR". In other words, the change between SR2 and
SR3. I believe Mike spoke about the general atmosphere books (herein
described as Place Books and the Neo-A books and Lone Star/Prime Runners)
being poor sellers, and so to reinvigorate the line he was going to toss out
a lot of the atmosphere stuff and concentrate down on shadowrunning. (You
can see a very clear distinction between SR2 and SR3 illustrating this. Just
take a look at the color plates. SR2 has a walkabout of the Shadowrun world
while SR3 has shadowrunners doing their thing.) I feel he has gone too far
in this, however, but I've already posted on that.
A funny thing that came up in the chat was if not for Nigel Findley,
there would be no more Place Books. And this is the guy who wrote
Shadowfiles and Lone Star, two of the most bashed SBs. Aztlan is what saved
Place Books. FASA had said if it didn't sell well, there would be no more.




-Twist
Message no. 166
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:46:57 -0400
On 15 Aug 99, at 20:26, Arcady wrote:

> Well;
>
> As a consumer of the game; isn't that Twist's very job? Like
> all of us. A line developer who fails to solicit and also
> listen to his consumer is a fool (and/or works for Hero games).
> Hopefully the long term will prove otherwise for FASA. For
> their sake's I'd have to hope either that all gamers fantasize
> about being purposeless amoral thugs or that FASA has more
> tricks up it's sleeve and this is just a phase of that.

As in my previous post, it wasn't that he told Mike what he'd
like to see, it's that he "argued" with him for four hours about
it. Tell the man what you'd like then quit buggin' him.

---
Yeah, I found him. A little here, a little there,
not much left...
--Smilin' Jack, with smoking gun in hand.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 167
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:46:57 -0400
On 15 Aug 99, at 21:57, runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 09:21 PM 8/15/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
> :So Twist, let me get this straight,... you were trying to tell the
> :Shadowrun Line Developer what the game he develops should
> :be like? Errr,... okaaaaayyy. :-)
>
> Considering he's an end-user of the product that Mike's developing in the
> first place, one of the many consumers who's money it is that provides
> FASA Corp. with the income from which they pay Mike's salary, what's wrong
> with telling the guy what he'd like to see in future products? :)

I don't consider "arguing" (his word, not mine) for four hours
telling him what he'd like to see. Sounds more like pestering
him to death, but then again, that's just me, hell, maybe Mike
enjoyed the chat.

Kinda' reminds me of a local businessman bringing up town
business to a town councilman the other day when we were
all sitting there getting our oil changed. After the first two
minutes, I could tell the councilman didn't want to discuss the
subject, but the businessman wouldn't leave it alone.
---
I crush you!
Hey, anybody got any mustard?...
-- Ziggy the Troll.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 168
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:03:58 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 7:06:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cpenta@*****.com
writes:

> > Can't you get a parent to order them for you from amazon or fasa?
>
> Maybe. Except for the fact that, well....my parents have begun to
> show...disapproval of my RPG habit. So I giotta pay with my own cash. And
> both
> require either: A. A checking account or B. A credit card. I have neither.
>
> John


FASA and Amazon require credit cards? I've ordered from both with money
orders.



-Twist
Message no. 169
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:14:54 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 12:09:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

> As in my previous post, it wasn't that he told Mike what he'd
> like to see, it's that he "argued" with him for four hours about
> it. Tell the man what you'd like then quit buggin' him.


Mike comes into a weekly chat on AOL where he usually stays for a couple
hours at a time. That one night he and I got into the direction of Shadowrun
changing and those couple of hours turned into four. I didn't keep him there
or nagged him while he was trying to do something else. This was the whole
purpose of the chat. He got into it and so did I. In fact, normally when
the topic isn't interesting to Mike or he has to get to sleep, he says
goodnight and signs off. He liked the debate enough to stay on for four
hours, not was forced to stay or bugged into staying.




-Twist
Message no. 170
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:17:32 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> Twist is not bitching, whining or complaining. He is making a valid
observation on a reference he thinks the game could use. Maybe those of
you that have been playing for years think it's not necessary. And it
may not be for you. But there are others that would like to see this
kind of reference made available. And for those of you who don't want
it, I'll bet you buy it if it is published anyway...
>
> Just another opinion from one of those that may or may not be
"creatively challenged" but still enjoys the game...
<Matty-boy>

Matt,

I don't know about everyone else *Doc' looks pointedly at K :)*, but I
was never disagreeing with Twist that such books were and would be
useful. As I've said a number of times, I think they'd be wonderful.

My point is that I don't think to expect FASA to make them is
realistic. They simply are not the kinds of things that sell well and
all game companies have to look at the bottom line.

Oh, and one other thing. Twist WAS bitching, whining and/or complaining
- or at least, that's how it came across. No offense, Twist.

I honestly think that we all agree on a basic principle here -
atmosphere books of the kind Twist wants would be wonderful. The
disagreement comes because Twist thinks FASA isn't making them (or
enough of them) and we them they are (or that it's unreasonable to
expect them to produce the exact KINDS of books he's asking for).

Like Jon said, let it die. No one is going to convince anyone on the
other side of the fence. It's much too subjective a matter. And there's
no point bitching, whining, complaining or even discussing it, because
that gets nowhere. If we want a book like Twist is suggesting, then we
need to talk to FASA and convince them there's a market for it.

*Doc' makes eerie whistling noises...

<whisper>
"If they make it...I will buy..."
</whisper>*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 171
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:33:19 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/1999 2:46:51 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rtomasso@*******.com writes:

> > It has just as many inconsistancies as it did before -- they're just
> > different parts of the system.
>
> I'm curious, could you list them?
***
> > >And what's lacking in the subtlety for SR3 plot-line? (Such as it is so
> far.)
> >
> > How about subtlety?
>
> Again, I'd like an example, just so I understand where you're coming from.


I'm with Richard here Robert...please, give us some.

-K
Message no. 172
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:39:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/1999 4:13:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Wildfire@*************.com writes:

> I agree with you there. In the position of having little money, and even
> smaller
> availability, I haven't read but one novel, and the things that people
> mention from
> them lose me. I have yet to find a library that has any. I think its a
> good idea
> *in theory* but doesn't pan out well in practice. Perhaps if the books
were
> a
> little more available it would be better.

Concerning this, do you have a public library? If so, request the novel be
aquired by way of the US Bookshare program that nearly all libraries operated
by the civil authority (IE; the towns/cities they are located in) partake in.
It may take a bit, but it should help.

-K
Message no. 173
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:32:03 -0400
>I honestly think that we all agree on a basic principle here -
>atmosphere books of the kind Twist wants would be wonderful. The
>disagreement comes because Twist thinks FASA isn't making them (or
>enough of them) and we them they are (or that it's unreasonable to
>expect them to produce the exact KINDS of books he's asking for).
>
>Like Jon said, let it die. No one is going to convince anyone on the
>other side of the fence. It's much too subjective a matter. And
there's
>no point bitching, whining, complaining or even discussing it,
because
>that gets nowhere. If we want a book like Twist is suggesting, then
we
>need to talk to FASA and convince them there's a market for it.


Not to sound naive, but writing reams of material on atmosphere,
setting, new gear...isn't that what the GM's are for? I mean with the
basics (breakup of the superpowers, the rise of the Tirs, the
Awakening, etc.), we need FASA's help (I love my Tir books for this
reason), but can't we just make stuff up as we go along, or do we
really need FASA's Seal of Approval on everything we do?

For instance, I'm sure someone's started writing about Japan in
2050-60 already...

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"
Message no. 174
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 04:09:14 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 1:26:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arcady@***.net
writes:

> There's also money orders that you can get at the post office.
>
> May not work for Amazon or FASA but it will with eBay.


They work for all three.




-Twist
Message no. 175
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 05:37:16 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 12:23:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us writes:

> >
> > Considering he's an end-user of the product that Mike's developing in the
> > first place, one of the many consumers who's money it is that provides
> > FASA Corp. with the income from which they pay Mike's salary, what's
wrong
> > with telling the guy what he'd like to see in future products? :)
>
> I don't consider "arguing" (his word, not mine) for four hours
> telling him what he'd like to see. Sounds more like pestering
> him to death, but then again, that's just me, hell, maybe Mike
> enjoyed the chat.
>
> Kinda' reminds me of a local businessman bringing up town
> business to a town councilman the other day when we were
> all sitting there getting our oil changed. After the first two
> minutes, I could tell the councilman didn't want to discuss the
> subject, but the businessman wouldn't leave it alone.



See, the AOL chat just isn't like that. There are like six or seven other
people in the room who are talking, too, and if Mike wanted to change the
subject he could have easily jumped into a different conversation or started
one. If a person goes on pestering a topic someone doesn't want to hear,
the Ignore function is used.
Since my mail is wonky tonight and I can't access Jon's e-mail, I'm not
sure what he said, so I may be repeating him right now. Jon was also at that
chat and sometimes comes to the others (with the Cons recently he hasn't, but
normally), so he might be able to give you an opinion of what happened that
night that you'll trust more than mine.



-Twist
Message no. 176
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 05:45:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 5:13:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Wildfire@*************.com writes:

> I agree with you there. In the position of having little money, and even
> smaller
> availability, I haven't read but one novel, and the things that people
> mention from
> them lose me. I have yet to find a library that has any. I think its a
> good idea
> *in theory* but doesn't pan out well in practice. Perhaps if the books
were
> a
> little more available it would be better.
>
> Wildfire
>


The novels on-sale at eBay are usually bundled and go very cheap. For
instance: BEYOND THE PALE by Jak Koke, BURNING BRIGHT by Tom Dowd, RUN HAR,
DIE FAST by Mel Odom, CHANGELING by Chris Kubasik, FADE TO BLACK by Nyx
Smith. This lot of books is currently going for $5.50. So normally 5 SR
books go for around $30 retail. eBay is a lot of bad things sometimes, but
for SR novels it's a haven for cheap buys. If you don't mind them being
used, that is, which is a lot more visible with paperbacks.



-Twist
Message no. 177
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:44:46 +0100
>>Maybe. Except for the fact that, well....my parents have begun to
>>show...disapproval of my RPG habit. So I giotta pay with my own cash. And both
>>require either: A. A checking account or B. A credit card. I have neither.

Surely any small local independant bookseller would order them for you? And
if a salesperson told you otherwise at a big shop - they're lying. Ask to see the
floor manager and explain your problem to them. Bookshops can and will order
pretty much *anything* for you - it's the way they make money!

Oh yes, while I'm here (sorry, busy writing for ShadowTK at the mo') - this thing
about SR3 having no 'atmosphere' and not enough detail. Well....DUH! Sorry,
but like someone says, if my players ask "How much does a Crunchie bar
sell for?", I don't look it up - I *make* it up. Part of being a GM is filling in the

cracks in the world FASA give us - crikey, in the Good Old Days, with B2
etc. - you made up your campaign world entirely - being given all this information
is a bonus - I'm sure there are S-run campaigns being run that *completely*
ignore the FASA world. Wouldn't be difficult....

J.
Message no. 178
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:00:16 -0400
IronRaven wrote:

> You can also look at B&N, Amazon and eBay for used versions, but for a
> book that might be falling apart (you can't tell, becuase you can't examine
> it) that has a cover price of $15 and pay $30 for it.
>

Just a comment - the key to getting things cheap on eBay is patience. All but one of
my sourcebooks have come from eBay and I've never paid more than $8 for a
sourcebook(that was the 2nd ed. hardcover). If you watch and don't bid just to outbid
someone else, you can get great deals on books. Its also amazing how much can be
fixed with a little polystyrene cement and contact paper.

Wildfire
Message no. 179
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:34:46 -0400
> Concerning this, do you have a public library? If so, request the novel be
> aquired by way of the US Bookshare program that nearly all libraries operated
> by the civil authority (IE; the towns/cities they are located in) partake in.
> It may take a bit, but it should help.
>

This is usually a good way to get things. Ask at the reference desk about
Interlibrary loans. Usually free or a small charge. Only problem is they
usually need at least title, autor, and publisher. Is there anywhere to get a
list of the Shadowrun Novels published?

Wildfire
Message no. 180
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:49:59 -0400
At 19.10 08-16-99 -0700, you wrote:
> They were put out too early. When they premiered SR was a new game >and
everyone was busy buying the rulebooks and the people playing for just
>actions sake were still in it in large numbers.

Doesn't that seem to be where we are returning to?

>then they want to get all the toys. Only after that do they start wondering
>what color the sky is.

Huh?
First question I asked when I was making up SR was "Who screwed up is the
weather? Should I invest in a couple of acid-raincoats and a small
respirator?" (Actully, it was two, but they were related.)

>want them from day one. But a lot of people start off small in
>interest/budget and then build up.

No argueement. My first books were the core and FoF. But if there had
been something like a copy of Shadowbeat on the shelf, I would have put off
Fof. Then again, I amy be the only person in North America who would make
that same choice.




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 181
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:55:17 -0700
<snip all>
OK..when ARE these AOL chats, and WHERE on AOL? I have a secondary AOL account
that I use.
Message no. 182
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:11:31 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to IronRaven."
] No argueement. My first books were the core and FoF. But if there had
] been something like a copy of Shadowbeat on the shelf, I would have put off
] Fof. Then again, I amy be the only person in North America who would make
] that same choice.

Probably not. But, as this discussion has shown, there are many,
many people who like many, many different aspects of SR. FASA somehow
has to please all of them, so obviously some of us aren't going to be
happy all the time, for different reasons, and conversely, sometimes
we'll be very, very pleased.
Me, I'm easy to please. The only thing _I_ really want is cheaper
books :) And we all know how soon FASA's going to address that
particular concern!

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 183
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:17:29 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 9:56:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cpenta@*****.com
writes:

> OK..when ARE these AOL chats, and WHERE on AOL? I have a secondary AOL
> account
> that I use.
>


The AOL shadowrun chats take place oddly enough in Shadowrun Chat (a private
room) every Thursday night at 9pm eastern.



-Twist
Message no. 184
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:45:11 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such


> > Concerning this, do you have a public library? If so, request the
novel be
> > aquired by way of the US Bookshare program that nearly all libraries
operated
> > by the civil authority (IE; the towns/cities they are located in)
partake in.
> > It may take a bit, but it should help.
> >
>
> This is usually a good way to get things. Ask at the reference desk
about
> Interlibrary loans. Usually free or a small charge. Only problem is
they
> usually need at least title, autor, and publisher. Is there anywhere
to get a
> list of the Shadowrun Novels published?
>


You can start at http://www.fasa.com/Shadowrun/Catalog/subline1043.html
. That is the listing of novels on Fasa's site. Once you have gotten
one or two, most of them have either lists or ads that you can use to
find out about the others.

Mockingbird
Message no. 185
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
> > I guess I'm not seeing the lack of atmosphere. If anything, the atmosphere
> > is getting richer from where I'm sitting. Please clarify how there's a
> > lack of atmosphere in the recent (say, the last two years or so) crop of
> > material.
>
> Just look at the books released in the last couple years. You have books
> offering jobs (BitB and Shutdown) and rulebooks and place books. It's all a
> set up for shadowruns, not a sense of what living in the world of shadowrun
> is like. (Not everying is a job or a travel brochure.) The closest we've
> come so far is the "Effect of magic on religion" section in MitS as it
deals
> with the standard world most people live in and the effect the Shadowrun
> changes has had on them. But that was just a few pages in one book.

I'll have to agree with the first post. The books under Mike's development
have given a good sense of the world. The core rulebook answered a lot of
questions I had, for one. Corporate Download had tons of useful stuff on
working for the corps and how much influence they had (and what's changed
since previous editions). Super Tuesday gave a glimpse of the UCAS.
Granted, not all of it is stated right out, you have to infer a few things,
but overall there's plenty of setting details out there.

Don't forget, the target and other setting books are written as though
they were real docs from the Sixth World, therefore they won't go into
the "day in the life" stuff you seem to need.
Message no. 186
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:20:56 -0400 (EDT)
Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
> Matt does make a good point. However, I've been the new person who had to
> figure out what was what in the SR universe by myself. However, I managed.
> Know why? THE NOVELS. They've fleshed stuff out tremendously. Personally,
> I hate it when the company gives out too much detail on what the world is.
> IMO FASA (and a lot of other rpg compainies) have hit the nail on the head
> with the idea of using novels to flesh out the world.

I'm curious, what could you not figure out w/o the novels? I know lots
of players who haven't read any of the novels, but keep up on the sourcebooks
and have no trouble knowing what's going on.
Message no. 187
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:12:37 -0500
> > > > *sniff* I miss Tom.
> > >
> > > You would...
> > >
> > Um, what exactly is this supposed to mean?
> >
> > (As if it were a sin to miss Tom)
>
> There are mixed stories and opinions that people have of Tom here Mark.
> One
> of them is the fact that Tom would not, nor could he, answer the question
> to
> the same person if asked more than once, the same way, twice. It happened
>
> with someone I know, and to myself.
>
> I later discovered, after going heavy net-interactive, that Tom had
> performed
> this little "I'll answer his question *this* way today" function as a
> general
> rule of thumb for him. In the end, that can make for some very confused
> players and GMs in general.
>
Aah. That still doesn't explain how exactly the above statement was meant,
but thanks anyway.
Message no. 188
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:31:50 -0500
> >From: "Matt Teixeira" <MTeixeira@*******.com>
> (THE BIGGEST SNIP tm)
>
> Matt does make a good point. However, I've been the new person who had to
>
> figure out what was what in the SR universe by myself. However, I
> managed.
> Know why? THE NOVELS. They've fleshed stuff out tremendously.
> Personally,
> I hate it when the company gives out too much detail on what the world is.
>
> IMO FASA (and a lot of other rpg compainies) have hit the nail on the head
>
> with the idea of using novels to flesh out the world.
>
Fleshing out the world is nice in novels, but not all of us buy them. That
leaves some of us in the dirt. And I don't think anyone's asking for extreme
detail (I doubt the average shadowrunner cares what a wage slave eats for
breakfast), but some additional info would be nice.
Message no. 189
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:46:14 -0500
> >> > *sniff* I miss Tom.
> >>
> >> You would...
> >>
> >Um, what exactly is this supposed to mean?
> >
> >(As if it were a sin to miss Tom)
>
> Yeah. It is.
> Tom was a pud.
> Ever wonder WHY he got dumped into FASA Interactive????
>
I delight in opening my mail each day and reading comments from open-minded
players from around the globe. Tom was not a pud. He had some problems, I'm
sure. As everyone does. Please recall that he was one of the people that
invented this game to begin with. You gotta' give the guy some credit.

(and somehow I don't see FASA Interactive as being a step down. I'm
practically positive that FASA computer games make more than the RPG line).
Message no. 190
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:26:23 CST
>From: Schizi@***.com

>Actually, the AOL chats can easily last that long, and it most likely
>wasn't
>the only subject at the time, so it is not too bad.


Ah! I don't chat much. I'll take your word for it. :)


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 191
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: SR Future Products and such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:54:12 -0400
>I delight in opening my mail each day and reading comments from open-minded
>players from around the globe. Tom was not a pud. He had some problems, I'm
>sure. As everyone does. Please recall that he was one of the people that
>invented this game to begin with. You gotta' give the guy some credit.

I can agree with that. Dowd set up a nice framework, but IMO the world is in
better hands now.

>(and somehow I don't see FASA Interactive as being a step down. I'm
>practically positive that FASA computer games make more than the RPG line).

Well, anything can be a step down if you're being forced to go. ;-)
I have no idea personally if that's the case, but there are rumors that
point that direction.
As for the profitability. I beg to differ.
When you consider the time frame needed to make a single Battletech game (At
least 1 year or more) and compare that to the few months of actual work that
go into a single SR book.
Factor in the need for multitudes of programmers, compared to a few writers
for SR, and add in the fact that there's a TON of fans that CAN and DO write
games on spec for FASA (several cents per word payment) compared to the BIG
money that programmers earn.
Computers that can handle a big programming job cost $$$ The old Apples that
SR is composed on are dirt cheap.
Consider the massive advertising needed for Mechwarrior 3, compared to free
previews in Dragon and Inquest for SR.
And lastly recall that ALL of FASA Interactives titles have been
produced/distributed by thrid or fourth parties, who all get a share of the
revenue.

I can almost GUARANTEE that FASA's rpg lines make more cash per item than
FASA Int.
Of course, since video games have a wider audience, they are sure to sell
more units, making a higher total gross.

Wanna know who probably makes the most cash for FASA?
Ral Partha! ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 192
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Future Products and such
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:06:21 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 10:57:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> I can almost GUARANTEE that FASA's rpg lines make more cash per item than
> FASA Int.

Don't bet on it. MW3 will make more money in one year than all of FASA's
stuff put together in the same year, most likely.





-Twist
Message no. 193
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:22:22 -0500
> In a message dated 8/16/99 1:38:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> markf@******.com
> writes:
>
> > > I argued with him for four hours in a chat room about this. That's
> the
> > > case,
> > > like it or not. Atmosphere out, shadowrunning in.
> > >
> > He actually said this? (I was running on the assumption that this was
> what
> > you had picked up from the books - of which I agreed with). Do you have
> any
> > remembrances of this conversation as to why?
>
>
> The conversation was about the change-up between the "old, outdated SR"
> and
> the "darker, more gritty SR". In other words, the change between SR2 and
> SR3. I believe Mike spoke about the general atmosphere books (herein
> described as Place Books and the Neo-A books and Lone Star/Prime Runners)
> being poor sellers, and so to reinvigorate the line he was going to toss
> out
> a lot of the atmosphere stuff and concentrate down on shadowrunning. (You
>
> can see a very clear distinction between SR2 and SR3 illustrating this.
> Just
> take a look at the color plates. SR2 has a walkabout of the Shadowrun
> world
> while SR3 has shadowrunners doing their thing.) I feel he has gone too
> far
> in this, however, but I've already posted on that.
> A funny thing that came up in the chat was if not for Nigel Findley,
> there would be no more Place Books. And this is the guy who wrote
> Shadowfiles and Lone Star, two of the most bashed SBs. Aztlan is what
> saved
> Place Books. FASA had said if it didn't sell well, there would be no
> more.
>
Thanks for the info.

*sniff* Now I miss Nigel.
Message no. 194
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:35:45 CST
>From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
>I'm curious, what could you not figure out w/o the novels? I know lots
>of players who haven't read any of the novels, but keep up on the
>sourcebooks
>and have no trouble knowing what's going on.


A lot of the day-to-day stuff. Y'know, what stuff looks or sounds like,
what the fashion trends are, how a corp works, how to roleplay ettiquette
skills, what weaponry makes sense to carry on the street, what it's like to
be an ork, troll, dwarf, elf, other. Y'know, the stuff that I wouldn't know
personally.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 195
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:07:22 CST
>From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>
>Fleshing out the world is nice in novels, but not all of us buy them. >That
>leaves some of us in the dirt. And I don't think anyone's asking >for
>extreme detail (I doubt the average shadowrunner cares what a >wage slave
>eats for breakfast), but some additional info would be >nice.

I suppose it would be nice. I don't really want it or need it (like I said,
I've read a lot of the novels), but I could see how others would I suppose.
I prefer ad libbing what I don't know. If the GM doesn't like it, I'll
change it, no biggie.


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 196
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:39:31 -0400 (EDT)
Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
>
> >From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
> >I'm curious, what could you not figure out w/o the novels?
>
> A lot of the day-to-day stuff. Y'know, what stuff looks or sounds like,
> what the fashion trends are

Hmm, never had much trouble with this myself. The art in the books certainly
gives a sense of what things look like. Sounds, OK trickier, but easy
enough to fake. Fashion I would guess to be campaign filler.

> how a corp works,

Both Corp books give a good look at how they work.

> how to roleplay ettiquette skills,

Yeah, that'd be a good one. (but I guess every game has this problem)

> what weaponry makes sense to carry on the street,

I think the sourcebooks and rulebooks cover this one well. Just check the
legality code and concealment ratings for a really good start.

> what it's like to be an ork, troll, dwarf, elf, other.

Again, I think the sourcebooks have plenty of info on this.

> Y'know, the stuff that I wouldn't know personally.

Interesting list. I'll admit I hadn't thought of most of it.
Message no. 197
From: Christopher Pratt valen@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:00:40 -0400
It seems to me that you could get most of that sorta information form
reading the novels. Espically info on fashion, etiquette, and accessories
(guns of course) from the scenes in the books based on the locations that
the action in the novels takes place in.

"Windows 95: 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to
an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor,
written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition." -
Unknown
Christopher Pratt
valen@*******.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such


> Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
> >
> > >From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
> > >I'm curious, what could you not figure out w/o the novels?
> >
> > A lot of the day-to-day stuff. Y'know, what stuff looks or sounds like,
> > what the fashion trends are
>
> Hmm, never had much trouble with this myself. The art in the books
certainly
> gives a sense of what things look like. Sounds, OK trickier, but easy
> enough to fake. Fashion I would guess to be campaign filler.
>
> > how a corp works,
>
> Both Corp books give a good look at how they work.
>
> > how to roleplay ettiquette skills,
>
> Yeah, that'd be a good one. (but I guess every game has this problem)
>
> > what weaponry makes sense to carry on the street,
>
> I think the sourcebooks and rulebooks cover this one well. Just check the
> legality code and concealment ratings for a really good start.
>
> > what it's like to be an ork, troll, dwarf, elf, other.
>
> Again, I think the sourcebooks have plenty of info on this.
>
> > Y'know, the stuff that I wouldn't know personally.
>
> Interesting list. I'll admit I hadn't thought of most of it.
>
Message no. 198
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:32:55 CST
>From: Richard Tomasso <rtomasso@*******.com>
>Hmm, never had much trouble with this myself. The art in the books
>certainly
>gives a sense of what things look like. Sounds, OK trickier, but easy
>enough to fake. Fashion I would guess to be campaign filler.

I only had the BBB to work with tho'. :) It didn't have everything.

>Both Corp books give a good look at how they work.

I didn't get the first one until last summer. :)

>Yeah, that'd be a good one. (but I guess every game has this problem)

True <heh>, which is probably why some characters have no social skills
(insert joke here).

>I think the sourcebooks and rulebooks cover this one well. Just check the
>legality code and concealment ratings for a really good start.

The SR2 BBB didn't have legality codes AFAIK, and the concealment ratings
were nice (although fragged for a Roomsweeper), but I meant what weapons
were a good idea to carry. Being Cdn, I don't have the large experience
with anti-personnel weaponry that you Yanks have. :)

>Again, I think the sourcebooks have plenty of info on this.

I thought differently. I mean the mindset, the actual physical stuff
(fitting thru doorways, looming over people, etc). The BBB gave a dry
academic viewpoint IMO (although the short story helped).

>Interesting list. I'll admit I hadn't thought of most of it.

I've been told that I'm a perfectionist. It kinda extends to my
role-playing. I was the first one to realize in my AD&D group the strategic
advantages that dwarfs have over human males (think about it), and how irate
one would get if EVERTHING was too tall and NOONE noticed you in a crowd due
to your height. :)

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 199
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:46:31 CST
>From: "Christopher Pratt" <valen@*******.com>

>It seems to me that you could get most of that sorta information form
>reading the novels. Espically info on fashion, etiquette, and accessories
>(guns of course) from the scenes in the books based on the locations that
>the action in the novels takes place in.


That's what I said :)

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 200
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and such
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:48:38 -0500
> >I delight in opening my mail each day and reading comments from
> open-minded
> >players from around the globe. Tom was not a pud. He had some problems,
> I'm
> >sure. As everyone does. Please recall that he was one of the people that
> >invented this game to begin with. You gotta' give the guy some credit.
>
> I can agree with that. Dowd set up a nice framework, but IMO the world is
> in
> better hands now.
>
Depends on what you're after. Some like detailed rules for stuff (again).
Others want source material. Tom provided more source material (so far).

> >(and somehow I don't see FASA Interactive as being a step down. I'm
> >practically positive that FASA computer games make more than the RPG
> line).
>
> Well, anything can be a step down if you're being forced to go. ;-)
> I have no idea personally if that's the case, but there are rumors that
> point that direction.
> As for the profitability. I beg to differ.
> When you consider the time frame needed to make a single Battletech game
> (At
> least 1 year or more) and compare that to the few months of actual work
> that
> go into a single SR book.
> Factor in the need for multitudes of programmers, compared to a few
> writers
> for SR, and add in the fact that there's a TON of fans that CAN and DO
> write
> games on spec for FASA (several cents per word payment) compared to the
> BIG
> money that programmers earn.
> Computers that can handle a big programming job cost $$$ The old Apples
> that
> SR is composed on are dirt cheap.
> Consider the massive advertising needed for Mechwarrior 3, compared to
> free
> previews in Dragon and Inquest for SR.
> And lastly recall that ALL of FASA Interactives titles have been
> produced/distributed by thrid or fourth parties, who all get a share of
> the
> revenue.
>
> I can almost GUARANTEE that FASA's rpg lines make more cash per item than
> FASA Int.
> Of course, since video games have a wider audience, they are sure to sell
> more units, making a higher total gross.
>
So, you're agreeing with me?

> Wanna know who probably makes the most cash for FASA?
> Ral Partha! ;-)
>
Probably true.
Message no. 201
From: Peter Andersson wolfbane@***.passagen.se
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: 05 Sep 99 23:45:06 +0100
Originally written by: Hunter <griffinhq@****.com>

Subject: Re: SR Future Products and Such

On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:33:22 -0400 Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
writes:
[small snip]

>The old style also seemed more of the Shadowrun "feel", grab something
you
>shouldn't have, tweak it, disperse it, more of what characters would
read. The
>new style just seems somehow less, geared more towards player knowledge
than
>fitting it into a context that characters would read.
>
I tend to agree. The older books, especially ones like Shadowbeat, give
the SR universe it's "flavor". It gives both players and GMs a look at
how the entire SR universe is, not just the little corner labeled:
"Shadowrunners only".
Personally, I like "flavor" books because they give the campaign an
atmosphere that everyone understands. Yes it's nice to know that you
can do such and such with this and that, but it's just numbers without
any view on how it affects the rest of the world.
What happens outside the shadows strongly influences what happens inside
the shadows. If a universe is static than it just dies. Unless there's
growth (which usually but not always) implies expansion. As concepts are
developed, then give the entire game a richer flavor that makes it more
appealing not only to those of us who play regularly but to potential
players as well.

*************************************************************************
********************
Griffin Industries
"A Shadowrunner's Corp."

http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

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Message no. 202
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: SR Future Products and Such
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 04:43:48 GMT
> I tend to agree. The older books, especially ones like Shadowbeat, give
>the SR universe it's "flavor". It gives both players and GMs a look at
>how the entire SR universe is, not just the little corner labeled:
>"Shadowrunners only".
> Personally, I like "flavor" books because they give the campaign an
>atmosphere that everyone understands. Yes it's nice to know that you
>can do such and such with this and that, but it's just numbers without
>any view on how it affects the rest of the world.
> What happens outside the shadows strongly influences what happens inside
>the shadows. If a universe is static than it just dies. Unless there's
>growth (which usually but not always) implies expansion. As concepts are
>developed, then give the entire game a richer flavor that makes it more
>appealing not only to those of us who play regularly but to potential
>players as well.

Hey you are right, the Worlds development is IMHO the most important part of
an RPG, if not, then you are just plaing Hack and Slash pointless adventures
which do not afect anithingbut your pocket, while on the other hand if
everytjing is conected, as it should be in the SR Universe, or at least in
your personal campaigns the players get more involved in what happens
outside the shadows, and that is one of the most important parts of being a
Shadowrunner, you get to know the truth, more important you become a part of
that truth.

Fortunately my GM conects every run, so it will afect the future of our
characters and tha atmosfere of the world itself, If a run fails the outcome
of it will not only afect our pockets or reputation but what hapens upstairs
in the corps or power circles.

Currently, and I hope this doesnt bother you MUNDO we are running a campaign
called PMP or to english WWP (Worst of the Worlds Posible) An idiea he and
some friends came up whith, by mixing mosto of fasa´s campaigns and their
own And asked themselves what would happen if all the runners failed in
theri tasks, all the "Bad guys" would have won And SO IT CAME TO PASS WWP
was created, now our characters are involved in restoring things to normal
and every piece of run counts and changes the future, I think not even my GM
knows how this is going to end.

All this was said because I gess the new books let the GM create hi own
atmosfere, leting him decide how each run afects the players atmosfre

This is MHO of course
ATTE el MORRIS

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