Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: [srII]Grenades
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:03:34 +1000 (EST)
I've never liked the way that grenades work. I found it silly that you
could increase their damage by staging them up, and I don't like the fact
that they can't kill someone in one hit without staging. (Picky bugger,
aren't I?). Anyway, a friend of mine came up with an idea that sounds
good to me. It needs a bit of re-working, but it's a good starting point.
I just thought I'd post it and see what everyone/anyone else thinks.

The rules basically state, that a grenade now has a damage equal to the
power level. No Damage level (eg a grenade is now 10 instead of 10S).
The damage the grenade does is dependant on how far the target is from
ground zero. The number of meters is the target number for the damage to
be staged up. (Double this for defensive grenades.) Every 2 successes
raises the damage level by 1 (starts at 0).

eg, Ralph is 2 meters from ground zero. The grenade thrower rolls 10
dice, for a total of 8 successes. This means Ralph takes 10D damage.
If he had of been 4 meters away, it would probably have got 5 sucesses,
taking the damage to 10M. This means that he woulnd'nt take as much
damage, but as the power level is affected, it will probably still wound
him.

These rules also allow for a grenade to (remote chance) damage someone
that is out of the blast radius in the existing rules (a freak peice of
shrapnel?).

Anyway, that's all I've got to say.

What do you all think?

Ray.
Message no. 2
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 11:20:20 EST
could increase their damage by staging them up, and I don't like the fact
that they can't kill someone in one hit without staging. (Picky bugger,
aren't I?). Anyway, a friend of mine came up with an idea that sounds
good to me. It needs a bit of re-working, but it's a good starting point.
I just thought I'd post it and see what everyone/anyone else thinks.

The rules basically state, that a grenade now has a damage equal to the
power level. No Damage level (eg a grenade is now 10 instead of 10S). The
damage the grenade does is dependant on how far the target is from ground
zero. The number of meters is the target number for the damage to be
staged up. (Double this for defensive grenades.) Every 2 successes
raises the damage level by 1 (starts at 0).

eg, Ralph is 2 meters from ground zero. The grenade thrower rolls 10
dice, for a total of 8 successes. This means Ralph takes 10D damage.
If he had of been 4 meters away, it would probably have got 5 sucesses,
taking the damage to 10M. This means that he woulnd'nt take as much
damage, but as the power level is affected, it will probably still wound
him.

These rules also allow for a grenade to (remote chance) damage someone
that is out of the blast radius in the existing rules (a freak peice of
shrapnel?).

Anyway, that's all I've got to say.

What do you all think?

Ray.

-----------
Nononononono... successes in SR2 with grenade throwing do 2 things at
the same time: 1) reduce scatter AND 2) As per ANY weapon, they
increase the staging, grenades are rather DEADLY in sr, specially with
the chunky salsa effect... you can end up pretty easily having to save
a whopping 25+ S with 6+ successes, with only impact helping a little
bit..... and that is without IPE grenades.... and they only cost about
50 nY each.... beware of flamethrower spells if you carry them
though.. ;)
F
Message no. 3
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:00:23 +1000 (EST)
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Ferri Pagano wrote:

> Nononononono... successes in SR2 with grenade throwing do 2 things at
> the same time: 1) reduce scatter AND 2) As per ANY weapon, they
> increase the staging

This is one of my points. I don't think the thrower should be able to
stage a grenades damage up, only get it closer to the target.

> grenades are rather DEADLY in sr, specially with
> the chunky salsa effect... you can end up pretty easily having to save
> a whopping 25+ S with 6+ successes, with only impact helping a little
> bit.....

This system doesn't change that much. The power level will still
increase with the chunky salsa effect, but you still only roll the base
amount of dice. So if you're not on ground zero, you could end up with a
target number of 15-25, as usual, but the damage may not be deadly, only
serious or something, so that it becomes harder to avoid the damage, but
will probably not kill.
If you are on ground zero, and suffer the chunky salsa effect, you should
be dead, and this sytem will ensure it, pretty much as the existing rules
do.

> and that is without IPE grenades.... and they only cost about
> 50 nY each.... beware of flamethrower spells if you carry them
> though.. ;)


Ray.
Message no. 4
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:44:19 GMT + 2:00
@ could increase their damage by staging them up, and I don't like the fact
@ that they can't kill someone in one hit without staging. (Picky bugger,
@ aren't I?). Anyway, a friend of mine came up with an idea that sounds
@ good to me. It needs a bit of re-working, but it's a good starting point.
@ I just thought I'd post it and see what everyone/anyone else thinks.

<Snip method of damage>

We to disliked the rules, but all we did was to remove all
staging and placing the damage up by a category. Extra successes
translate into an increase in damage. The power of the grenade
reduces with distance as does the level.

EG. Merc Mike lobs a grenade at ganger Joe, after rolling scatter
et al, the grenade ends up 3 meters from Joe. Assuming a offensive
grenade the damage to resist would be 7S (10-3)((10 / Power drop per
meter) - 3 (distence from target)).


Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:13:20 +0100
Ferri Pagano said on 11:20/29 Jul 96...

> and they only cost about
> 50 nY each.... beware of flamethrower spells if you carry them
> though.. ;)

And of a dwarf who has a serious dislike for you, and is carrying a
rocket launcher with him without you knowing it... *grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Media pollution is a very bad solution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:21:00 GMT + 2:00
@ Ferri Pagano said on 11:20/29 Jul 96...
@
@ > and they only cost about
@ > 50 nY each.... beware of flamethrower spells if you carry them
@ > though.. ;)

If I am not mistaken most grenades are plastique based hence a
flame thrower would not trigger them unless the pin was melted. In
that case I don't think that it matters if the grenade blows,
anything that can melt metal has the PC slagged as well. ;)

@ And of a dwarf who has a serious dislike for you, and is carrying a
@ rocket launcher with him without you knowing it... *grin*

Done that once. Fired a missle into a room while in said room +/-
10 M from target. My character lost an arm for that event. ;)

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 7
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: [srII]Grenades
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 17:49:43 EST
Andre' wrote...

@ Ferri Pagano said on 11:20/29 Jul 96...
@
@ > and they only cost about
@ > 50 nY each.... beware of flamethrower spells if you carry them
@ > though.. ;)

If I am not mistaken most grenades are plastique based hence a
flame thrower would not trigger them unless the pin was melted. In
that case I don't think that it matters if the grenade blows,
anything that can melt metal has the PC slagged as well. ;)
>True, to HIM it doesn't matter if the 10 grenades blow.
To his companions standing within 10 feet it might though... :)


@ And of a dwarf who has a serious dislike for you, and is carrying a
@ rocket launcher with him without you knowing it... *grin*

Done that once. Fired a missle into a room while in said room +/-
10 M from target. My character lost an arm for that event. ;)

>But the target died, right?
-<Maniacally insane>
F.
Message no. 8
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:46:17 +0100
Andre' Selmer said on 13:21/30 Jul 96...

> @ And of a dwarf who has a serious dislike for you, and is carrying a
> @ rocket launcher with him without you knowing it... *grin*
>
> Done that once. Fired a missle into a room while in said room +/-
> 10 M from target. My character lost an arm for that event. ;)

This was a situation where we (the players) created a crossfire to catch a
vampire-worship gang in. Two of the other characters had been extremely
offensive toward my char, so when I had the opportunity I fired a rocket
into them (of course "aimed at the gangers, but hey, I missed" :) It
turned out the two chars were carrying around 10 grenades each, coupled to
the blast from the rocket gives very chunky salsa...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Media pollution is a very bad solution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 9
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 12:06:06 GMT + 2:00
<snip>
@ This was a situation where we (the players) created a crossfire to catch a
@ vampire-worship gang in. Two of the other characters had been extremely
@ offensive toward my char, so when I had the opportunity I fired a rocket
@ into them (of course "aimed at the gangers, but hey, I missed" :) It
@ turned out the two chars were carrying around 10 grenades each, coupled to
@ the blast from the rocket gives very chunky salsa...

I would think more along the line of strawberry cheesecake.
Seriously though, do modern grenades use a volitile explosive or a
plastique based explosive. If if was volitile then yes the grenade
you explode when subject to heat, lightning etc. But if it was
plastique based then it has an electronic detonation rendering it
vunerable mainly to things like lightning spells. I seem to remember
in the older greandes what happened was the pin was pulled. When the
handle was released it broke a small vial containing acid which ate
through the substance between the acid and explosive generating heat.
When the heat reached point X the grenade exploded. Do modern grenade
use the same mechanics is it a case of, the pin is pulled, releasing
handle starts a timer, when time=0 Boom, else there is a shock sensor
when force on timer is greater then X Boom, or even a possible
combination of both.

In our system we assumed the electronic version, ie with
demolitions roll can modify it into a quickie bomb with appropriate
trigger.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: [srII]Grenades
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 09:40:27 +0100
Andre' Selmer said on 12:06/ 1 Aug 96...

> Seriously though, do modern grenades use a volitile explosive or a
> plastique based explosive. If if was volitile then yes the grenade
> you explode when subject to heat, lightning etc. But if it was
> plastique based then it has an electronic detonation rendering it
> vunerable mainly to things like lightning spells.

AFAIK plastic explosives blow up only as a result of another explosion,
not by fire or electricity. An electric detonator would use a bit of normal
explosive that is set off by an electric signal, and when that detonates
the main charge goes with it.

> I seem to remember in the older greandes what happened was the pin was
> pulled. When the handle was released it broke a small vial containing
> acid which ate through the substance between the acid and explosive
> generating heat. When the heat reached point X the grenade exploded. Do
> modern grenade use the same mechanics is it a case of, the pin is
> pulled, releasing handle starts a timer, when time=0 Boom, else there
> is a shock sensor when force on timer is greater then X Boom, or even a
> possible combination of both.

A typical hand grenade timer would consist of a fly-off lever that holds
a striker down. When the lever is released, the striker pushes it away
(off the grenade) by means of a spring, and hits a primer cap. The primer
produces a flame that ignites a fuse, which burns at a known speed (say,
a centimeter per second; by making the fuse 5 cm long, it will take 5
seconds for it to burn completely). When the fuse burns up, it sets off a
detonator, which in turn blows up the main explosive charge of the
grenade.
The (in)famous "pin" of a grenade does nothing more than keep the lever
down. Pull out the pin while you're holding the lever pressed to the
grenade body, and nothing will happen. You can re-insert the pin at this
time too. Once the lever has been released, better get rid of the grenade
quickly :)

Impact grenades use a fuse that responds to shocks; more than a certain
force, and it sets off the grenade. Most impact grenades have a back-up
timer fuse, so the grenade will go off even if the impact fuse fails to
function somehow.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've been searching most my life for anything to believe in,
like God or love or something -- any kind of simple solution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: (srII) Grenades
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 96 14:25:00 PDT
>> Seriously though, do modern grenades use a volitile explosive or a
>> plastique based explosive.

Modern grenades use RDX. Plastic explosives are RDX-based explosives
with a plasticising agent mixed in.

>> If if was volitile then yes the grenade
>> you explode when subject to heat, lightning etc. But if it was
>> plastique based then it has an electronic detonation rendering it
>> vunerable mainly to things like lightning spells.

>AFAIK plastic explosives blow up only as a result of another explosion,
>not by fire or electricity.

Plastic explosives & grenades *will* blow up if subjected to either
appropriate-strength blasts or electrical discharges. In fact,
electrical charges are the most effective means of detonating *any*
explosive - it's something to do with the way an electrical current
passes through the compound, breaking down electrical bonds - It was
explained to me once, but it was in a pub, and I'm no chemist, I just
know the basics. However, certain compunds are not suitable for
electrical detonation due to their make-up ie powders & liquids make
poor contacts for electrodes.

[snip - good description of WWII grenade operation deleted]

It's quite likely that SR2 grenades could have fully electrical &
programmable detonation systems eg adjustable time delay, contact
triggers etc. There are appropriate descriptions in the main CP2020
rulebook if I recall correctly.

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
O-------------------------------------------------------------------O
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: (srII) Grenades
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:09:24 +0100
Richard M Conroy said on 14:25/ 2 Aug 96...

> It's quite likely that SR2 grenades could have fully electrical &
> programmable detonation systems eg adjustable time delay, contact
> triggers etc. There are appropriate descriptions in the main CP2020
> rulebook if I recall correctly.

Somewhere in the back of SRII it says grenades have timers that can be set
anywhere between 2 seconds and 2 minutes, or for impact detonation. This
would probably be electronic, especially because the picture in FOF shows
digital counters on most of the grenades.
The only thing they seem to lack is a booby trap setting...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't waste your time with your visions of the future and your party lines.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: (srII) Grenades
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 16:54:59 -0400 (EDT)
>Somewhere in the back of SRII it says grenades have timers that can be set
>anywhere between 2 seconds and 2 minutes, or for impact detonation. This
>would probably be electronic, especially because the picture in FOF shows
>digital counters on most of the grenades.
>The only thing they seem to lack is a booby trap setting...
>
>--
>Gurth

p. 241 in the gear description. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [srII]Grenades, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!