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Message no. 1
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:08:46 -0700
The SRIII Companion says that ghouls:

a. are Dual-Natured
b. have Astral Perception
c. suffer from the Blindness flaw
d. may obtain cyber-eyes to offset their crappy physical vision.

So, let's suppose I get those new eyes:

1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally, and if
so, how?
2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point blindness flaw, or none
at all?
3. Must cybernetic vision magnification be of the optical variant, or does
it matter?
4. Does anybody have any other resources (online or hard-copy) for playing
a ghoul?

Thanks.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 2
From: Jeff axter@*****.com
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
> 1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to
> perceive astrally, and if
> so, how?

They take cyber-eyes to "hide their telltale
milky-white, pupilless eyes", they are blind and
cannot see with they, and astral perception/projection
is described as being a "psychic ability". They don't
need their eyes to see.

> 2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point
> blindness flaw, or none
> at all?

they freely have the -6 point flaw, so none at all

> 3. Must cybernetic vision magnification be of the
> optical variant, or does
> it matter?

don't matter, see no 1

> 4. Does anybody have any other resources (online or
> hard-copy) for playing
> a ghoul?

one of my player has a ghoul adept, the setting is low
budget in Puyallup (mafia/yakuza) and he find it very
hard to adapt to the scene being unwanted everywhere,
chased to death (extermination ?) and suffering from
exposure to the sun.

But he think it's fun and a lot of role-play
==Jeff
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Message no. 3
From: stefan casanova@***.passagen.se
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 05:37:00 +0000
> > 4. Does anybody have any other resources (online or
> > hard-copy) for playing
> > a ghoul?
>
> one of my player has a ghoul adept, the setting is low
> budget in Puyallup (mafia/yakuza) and he find it very
> hard to adapt to the scene being unwanted everywhere,
> chased to death (extermination ?) and suffering from
> exposure to the sun.
>
> But he think it's fun and a lot of role-play

Just one question here since I have never had a Ghoul player, but how
do you people or your other players for that matter deal with the
fact that this characters eats human flesh ?

.stefan


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Message no. 4
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:50:11 +0200
According to Snake Eyes, at 20:08 on 27 Aug 99, the word on
the street was...

> So, let's suppose I get those new eyes:
>
> 1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally, and if
> so, how?

It doesn't affect astral perception at all. Astral perception is _not_
vision, and so eyes don't come into it at all.

> 2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point blindness flaw, or none
> at all?

IMHO, none at all. (Unless I misunderstood your question, which I think I
did...)

> 3. Must cybernetic vision magnification be of the optical variant, or does
> it matter?

Doesn't matter. The data coming from the vision mag gets turned into the
same kind of neural signals anyway, else the brain wouldn't be able to
interpret it. At any rate, ghouls can't use cybereyes to see anyway, so
this question is not really relevant, IMHO.

> 4. Does anybody have any other resources (online or hard-copy) for playing
> a ghoul?

Bull wrote upsome rules for playing ghouls. I think they're in an issue of
TSS, and/or on his web page. Both of these can be found at the Deep
Resonance (http://shadowrun.html.com).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:44:30 -0500
> The SRIII Companion says that ghouls:
>
> a. are Dual-Natured
> b. have Astral Perception
> c. suffer from the Blindness flaw
> d. may obtain cyber-eyes to offset their crappy physical vision.

With you so far.

> 1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally, and if
> so, how?


No. Astral perception, especially for the dual-natured, does not rely on
eyes. Especially since a ghoul's eyes are useless because of the cataracts
that accompany their condition.

> 2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point blindness
> flaw, or none at all?

A ghoul already has the 2-point Blind flaw as part of the package (he only
gets the 2-point version because of his astral perception).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:44:33 -0500
> > 2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point
> > blindness flaw, or none at all?
>
> they freely have the -6 point flaw, so none at all

Actually, no. Read the description again; as dual-natured beings, ghouls
have constant astral perception, and so only have a 2-point Blind Flaw.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:44:36 -0500
> Just one question here since I have never had a Ghoul player, but how
> do you people or your other players for that matter deal with the
> fact that this characters eats human flesh ?

We're just getting used to it, since I just got transformed recently (thanks
a *whole* lot, James), but I've got a couple of gangers in my fridge
(formerly of my own gang; I was a little crazy at the time, and James tells
me that they were game-breaker NPCs anyway, so it's good that they're gone),
and my character lost his family to organleggers...so I anticipate a
reduction in the organlegger population as I start looking for dinner. In
any event, there are a variety of criminal elements that not many people are
going to shed a tear over.

Psychologically, it's really screwing with Bane's head right now, and his
friends aren't quite sure how to deal with it.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 8
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:49:53 -0700
> The SRIII Companion says that ghouls:
>
> a. are Dual-Natured
> b. have Astral Perception
> c. suffer from the Blindness flaw
> d. may obtain cyber-eyes to offset their crappy physical vision.
>
> So, let's suppose I get those new eyes:
>
> 1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally, and if
> so, how?

No.

Astral perception is not linked to the eyes.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
Resume http://resumes.dice.com/arcady
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:08:22 EDT
In a message dated 8/28/1999 4:50:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> > 1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally, and
if
> > so, how?
>
> It doesn't affect astral perception at all. Astral perception is _not_
> vision, and so eyes don't come into it at all.

I agree with Gurth here, but have to point out, that "LOS" is still the rule
in game mechanics, regardless of the "Psychic Sense" concept of Astral
Perception.

-K
Message no. 10
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:34:45 -0700
At 11:44 AM 8/28/99 -0500, Patrick Goodman wrote:

> > > 2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point
> > > blindness flaw, or none at all?
> >
> > they freely have the -6 point flaw, so none at all
>
>Actually, no. Read the description again; as dual-natured beings, ghouls
>have constant astral perception, and so only have a 2-point Blind Flaw.

I read the description. I was just confused about the astral aspect. I
can see that since ghouls are dual-natured they get the 2-point blind
flaw. However in SRIII Companion, the ghoul description section on page 33
says ghouls can get cyber-eyes to offset their cataracts (or whatever), but
the description of the blind flaw on page 19 clearly states that cybereyes
cannot correct the Blindness flaw.

So it would seem to follow that a standard ghoul without cyber-eyes takes
2-points of Blindness, but a ghoul with cyber-eyes actually takes no
Blindness flaw, and keeps his astral perception, too.

Is that about right?

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 11
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:59:22 -0700
> > > > 2. Does the ghoul then take the 2-point or 6-point
> > > > blindness flaw, or none at all?
> > >
> > > they freely have the -6 point flaw, so none at all
>
> can see that since ghouls are dual-natured they get the 2-point blind
>
> So it would seem to follow that a standard ghoul without cyber-eyes takes
> 2-points of Blindness, but a ghoul with cyber-eyes actually takes no
> Blindness flaw, and keeps his astral perception, too.

I wouldn't give flaw points for something that's already built into the
racial description unless the book specifically told me to do so.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
Resume http://resumes.dice.com/arcady
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 12
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:11:47 -0700
--=====================_56194767==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 06:08 PM 8/28/99 -0400, Ereskanti wrote:

> > > 1. Do cyber-eyes affect the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally,
> and if
> > > so, how?
> >
> > It doesn't affect astral perception at all. Astral perception is _not_
> > vision, and so eyes don't come into it at all.
>
>I agree with Gurth here, but have to point out, that "LOS" is still the rule
>in game mechanics, regardless of the "Psychic Sense" concept of Astral
>Perception.

While I understand that astral perception is not the same as vision, I
don't remember seeing anywhere that it is limited by LOS. If it is truly a
psychic sense, what's to stop you from "seeing" in 360 degrees or looking
through walls like a magical infrared scope? An LOS restriction sounds
completely reasonable, but I can't find where that is actually specified
anywhere in SRIII, the Companion or MitS.

The best I could find is that astral barriers appear as opaque walls that
impose vision modifiers equal to their ratings. It seems to me there was a
better description of astral perception in some of the older material.

Please enlighten me.

~ Snake Eyes

--=====================_56194767==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
At 06:08 PM 8/28/99 -0400, Ereskanti wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>&gt;&nbsp; &gt; 1.&nbsp; Do cyber-eyes
affect
the ghoul's ability to perceive astrally, and if <br>
&gt;&nbsp; &gt; so, how?<br>
&gt;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&nbsp; It doesn't affect astral perception at all. Astral perception
is _not_ <br>
&gt;&nbsp; vision, and so eyes don't come into it at all.<br>
<br>
I agree with Gurth here, but have to point out, that &quot;LOS&quot; is
still the rule <br>
in game mechanics, regardless of the &quot;Psychic Sense&quot; concept of
Astral <br>
Perception.</blockquote><br>
While I understand that astral perception is not the same as vision, I
don't remember seeing anywhere that it is limited by LOS.&nbsp; If it is
truly a psychic sense, what's to stop you from &quot;seeing&quot; in 360
degrees or looking through walls like a magical infrared scope? An LOS
restriction sounds completely reasonable, but I can't find where that is
actually specified anywhere in SRIII, the Companion or MitS.<br>
<br>
The best I could find is that astral barriers appear as opaque walls that
impose vision modifiers equal to their ratings.&nbsp; It seems to me
there was a better description of astral perception in some of the older
material.<br>
<br>
Please enlighten me.<br>
<br>
~ Snake Eyes<br>
</html>

--=====================_56194767==_.ALT--
Message no. 13
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:22:10 -0700
At 03:59 PM 8/28/99 -0700, Arcady wrote:

> > So it would seem to follow that a standard ghoul without cyber-eyes takes
> > 2-points of Blindness, but a ghoul with cyber-eyes actually takes no
> > Blindness flaw, and keeps his astral perception, too.
>
>I wouldn't give flaw points for something that's already built into the
>racial description unless the book specifically told me to do so.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't mean to imply that the character
should get any build points back from taking the Blindness flaw, I was just
using the point comparison to delineate the difference between the two
levels as illustrated in the Companion. It seems pretty clear to me that
players starting the game as ghouls build the character first and then
apply the infection modifiers as the last step, with no build point refunds
allowed. The same should apply to PC's who become infected during the
course of play.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:01:36 -0500
> It seems pretty clear to me that players starting the game as ghouls
> build the character first and then apply the infection modifiers as
> the last step, with no build point refunds allowed.

Precisely right.

> The same should apply to PC's who become infected during the course of
> play.

Yep, trust me, that's how it's done....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:01:39 -0500
> However in SRIII Companion, the ghoul description section on page 33
> says ghouls can get cyber-eyes to offset their cataracts (or whatever),
> but the description of the blind flaw on page 19 clearly states that
> cybereyes cannot correct the Blindness flaw.

And they can't. They just make the ghoul a little more socially acceptable
(at least as socially acceptable as a cannibal who smells like the grave can
be).

> So it would seem to follow that a standard ghoul without cyber-eyes
> takes 2-points of Blindness, but a ghoul with cyber-eyes actually
> takes no Blindness flaw, and keeps his astral perception, too.
>
> Is that about right?

Nope, since the cybereyes can't actually restore his lost sight. At least
here in the local games.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 16
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@********.att.net
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:48:34 -0700
At 07:01 PM 8/28/99 -0500, Patrick Goodman wrote:

> > So it would seem to follow that a standard ghoul without cyber-eyes
> > takes 2-points of Blindness, but a ghoul with cyber-eyes actually
> > takes no Blindness flaw, and keeps his astral perception, too.
> >
> > Is that about right?
>
>Nope, since the cybereyes can't actually restore his lost sight. At least
>here in the local games.

Hey, whatever works for you guys is fine by me. Although, while I
certainly respect the ruling of your local group, I must quote from the
SRIII Companion, page 33:

"Ghouls cannot see colors or fine details in non-living objects,
which keeps them from making effective use of most technological
devices. Many of the more socially adapted ghouls use cybereyes to
overcome this problem, provided they can find a street doc willing to
implant cyberware in a ghoul."

So, assuming the ghoul actually gets his new eye implants, the above
excerpt implies more than just a cosmetic replacement to change the
socially repulsive appearance of his milky-white, cataracted, pupil-less
ghoul eyes -- and further, it appears to contradict the information
regarding cybernetic vision restoration found under the Blindness flaw,
irrespective of any point value attached to it.

Baffling indeed, yes?

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 17
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:52:44 EDT
In a message dated 8/28/1999 6:17:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
snake.eyes@********.att.net writes:

>
> The best I could find is that astral barriers appear as opaque walls that
> impose vision modifiers equal to their ratings. It seems to me there was
a
> better description of astral perception in some of the older material.
>
> Please enlighten me.

Hmmm...you seem to be right on this. I wonder if something's been changed,
for in the past versions of SR, LOS (as in direct, unhindered, generally
unaided by means of electronic technology) was required for casting spells at
a target. With the exception of Ritual Sorcery of course. Now I'm not sure.
Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong places (shrug).

-K
Message no. 18
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SRIII Companion: Ghouls with cyber-eyes
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:03:16 +0200
According to Snake Eyes, at 16:11 on 28 Aug 99, the word on
the street was...

> While I understand that astral perception is not the same as vision, I
> don't remember seeing anywhere that it is limited by LOS. If it is truly a
> psychic sense, what's to stop you from "seeing" in 360 degrees

In this case, the GM's interpretation. I play it that it's fixed to a
certain field of "view" (for want of a better word) while others use it as
a 360-degree sense, somewhat like hearing is.

> or looking through walls like a magical infrared scope?

Physical objects that are not transparent on the physical plane, are
equally untransparent on the astral plane. So, you cannot see through a
wall, but you can see through a window.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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