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Message no. 1
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 09:24:28 -0700 (PDT)
Hi all,

I'm trying to set up a group with Karsten and have
received some leads to follow up on from a local
gaming store. Unfortunately the official SR website
doesn't seem to cater to people who are entirely new
to Shadowrun. Does anyone have any good links to sites
that will give a general overview of the setting
without making it look too daunting to n00bz?

cheers,

Jan Jaap


--- Niels Kobschätzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com>
wrote:

> On Apr 10, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Phillip Gawlowski
> wrote:
>
> > Derek Hyde wrote:
> >>> Our site is using joomla - and I don't like it.
> According to my
> >>> friendly
> >>> computer geek - drupal is much better CMS than
> mambo/joomla.
> >>>
> >> As CMS's go I don't care which one, but forum
> systems....SMF unless
> >> someone's buying a license for one of the pay to
> use forum sets, I
> >> don't
> >> like any of the other forum systems at all....
> >
> > SMF is a personal favorite of mine, but I don't
> think that a Forum
> > will be necessary, if we can work with either a
> mailing list or a
> > wiki (I'll dig into Drupal, concerning access
> rights. It *can* be
> > used as a wiki, too, which is a bonus).
>
> Actually I think a blog or wiki is better for a
> character newsletter
> than a cms.
> With a wiki everyone can easily post, with a blog
> you can easily post
> news which can be commented in-character.
> The set up of a blog is rather easy (wordpress for
> example), the
> administration is easier than with CMS and the
> theming is usually
> easier (and there are offline clients you can use to
> post to a blog…)
>
> Niels
>
>
>
> --
> Jammern für Anfänger: Niels K. (25) Jammerbacke --
> auch für
> professionelles Jammern zu haben
> http://jammern.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>




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Message no. 2
From: grant.woodward@*****.com (Grant Woodward)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:07:02 -0500
On 4/10/07, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to set up a group with Karsten and have
> received some leads to follow up on from a local
> gaming store. Unfortunately the official SR website
> doesn't seem to cater to people who are entirely new
> to Shadowrun. Does anyone have any good links to sites
> that will give a general overview of the setting
> without making it look too daunting to n00bz?
>
> cheers,
>
> Jan Jaap
>
>
> --- Niels Kobschätzki <n.kobschaetzki@**********.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 10, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Phillip Gawlowski
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Derek Hyde wrote:
> > >>> Our site is using joomla - and I don't like it.
> > According to my
> > >>> friendly
> > >>> computer geek - drupal is much better CMS than
> > mambo/joomla.
> > >>>
> > >> As CMS's go I don't care which one, but forum
> > systems....SMF unless
> > >> someone's buying a license for one of the pay to
> > use forum sets, I
> > >> don't
> > >> like any of the other forum systems at all....
> > >
> > > SMF is a personal favorite of mine, but I don't
> > think that a Forum
> > > will be necessary, if we can work with either a
> > mailing list or a
> > > wiki (I'll dig into Drupal, concerning access
> > rights. It *can* be
> > > used as a wiki, too, which is a bonus).
> >
> > Actually I think a blog or wiki is better for a
> > character newsletter
> > than a cms.
> > With a wiki everyone can easily post, with a blog
> > you can easily post
> > news which can be commented in-character.
> > The set up of a blog is rather easy (wordpress for
> > example), the
> > administration is easier than with CMS and the
> > theming is usually
> > easier (and there are offline clients you can use to
> > post to a blog…)
> >
> > Niels
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jammern für Anfänger: Niels K. (25) Jammerbacke --
> > auch für
> > professionelles Jammern zu haben
> > http://jammern.wordpress.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss an email again!
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> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
>


Jan,

Honestly, I'd suggest making a photocopy of the campaign book's history
section and handing it out. That's the part of the book that sold me on
Shadowrun originally -- it's funny and well-written, gives a good overview,
provides a lot of mystery for new players to wonder about, and if you're not
going to be playing post-2070, you can copy the SR3 version instead or hide
the stuff you don't want your players to see with a piece of paper when
copying it.

Grant
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:09:53 +0200
According to Grant Woodward, on 10-4-07 19:07 the word on the street was...

> Honestly, I'd suggest making a photocopy of the campaign book's history
> section and handing it out.

That would help, provided all players speak (read) English well enough
to understand it. My own preference would be to translate/paraphrase it
in Dutch, but maybe that's because I have too much time on my hands :)

> if you're not
> going to be playing post-2070, you can copy the SR3 version instead

Jan-Jaap, if you need a Dutch version of the history up until 2050, let
me know, I have one around I made for my players that I made for my
group's previous campaign :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wij komen van Ertvelde.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: toast.in.the.machine@*****.com (Mark)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 11:41:16 -0700
On 4/10/07, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to set up a group with Karsten and have
> received some leads to follow up on from a local
> gaming store. Unfortunately the official SR website
> doesn't seem to cater to people who are entirely new
> to Shadowrun. Does anyone have any good links to sites
> that will give a general overview of the setting
> without making it look too daunting to n00bz?

If you have patient players, try to find a novel or perhaps other
creative works along those lines. I'd be hesitant to recommend
fanfics, but if that's what it takes to get something readily
available in their native language, you may be stuck with it.

I'm *still* trying to track down a copy of the Shadowrun manga.
Unfortunately, Japanese publications have such a short print run and
shelf life that I suspect it's a lost cause at this point.

Mark
Message no. 5
From: gaiamancer@***.net (Gaiamancer)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:44:35 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:41 PM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: SR introduction

>On 4/10/07, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm trying to set up a group with Karsten and have
>> received some leads to follow up on from a local
>> gaming store. Unfortunately the official SR website
>> doesn't seem to cater to people who are entirely new
>> to Shadowrun. Does anyone have any good links to sites
>> that will give a general overview of the setting
>> without making it look too daunting to n00bz?

>If you have patient players, try to find a novel or perhaps other
>creative works along those lines. I'd be hesitant to recommend
>fanfics, but if that's what it takes to get something readily
>available in their native language, you may be stuck with it.

>I'm *still* trying to track down a copy of the Shadowrun manga.
>Unfortunately, Japanese publications have such a short print run and
>shelf life that I suspect it's a lost cause at this point.

>Mark


I think the first three Shadowrun novels ("Never Deal With a Dragon",
"Choose Your Enemies Carefully", and "Find Your Own Truth".) did an
excellent job of setting up the world as it was with regard to the timeline
up to around 2053, as well as the anthology "Into the Shadows". They really
helped me understand how the world of Shadowrun worked, as well as helping
me created really enjoyable games for my old gaming group.

Gaiamancer
Message no. 6
From: mattness@**.pl (MATT)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:37:18 +0200
On 4/10/07, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest <jjvanp@*****.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to set up a group with Karsten and have
> received some leads to follow up on from a local
> gaming store. Unfortunately the official SR website
> doesn't seem to cater to people who are entirely new
> to Shadowrun. Does anyone have any good links to sites
> that will give a general overview of the setting
> without making it look too daunting to n00bz?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYO4wG4Hv_I - something like this , but for SR would be
awesome.
Message no. 7
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Ritter)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:43:11 -0400
On 4/10/07, Gaiamancer <gaiamancer@***.net> wrote:
> I think the first three Shadowrun novels ("Never Deal With a Dragon",
> "Choose Your Enemies Carefully", and "Find Your Own Truth".) did
an
> excellent job of setting up the world as it was with regard to the timeline
> up to around 2053,

Agreed. SR4 is a much harder thing to explain. Wireless changes a
lot of details, but makes the omnipresence of the matrix better. I
use the example of the advertising in the movie "Minority report".

> as well as the anthology "Into the Shadows".

That one didn't help me at all.

--
Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 8
From: mightyflapjack@*****.com (Mightyflapjack)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:47:10 -0400
I agree that movies are the key:

Show them any/all of the following and point out the Shadowrun elements:

Movies:
Ronin
Heat
Minority Report
Blade Runner
Johnny Mnemonic
Freejack
I Robot

Animes:
Battle Angel
Akira
Ghost in the Shell (Movie and TV)
Appleseed
Message no. 9
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
> Show them any/all of the following and point out the Shadowrun
> elements:
>
> Movies:
> Ronin, Heat, Minority Report, Blade Runner, Johnny Mnemonic,
> Freejack, I Robot

Equilibrium (dystopian)
Italian Job (for the planning/adapting as a group)
Cyberwars (aka Avatar)
Robocop (excellent examples of cyberlimbs, security armor, Ruger
Thunderbolt, privatized police, and so on)

Matrix... sort of (vehicle jacks, decker's on overwatch, matrix
iconography/metaphors)

> Animes:
> Battle Angel, Akira, Ghost in the Shell (Movie and TV), Appleseed

Noir
Lain (matrix stuff)
Aeon Flux (movie... not so much... anime yes)
Cowboy Bebop (some episodes)

Novels can be helpful as well.

Snowcrash (Stephenson)
Neuromancer (Gibson)

These are two of the books I point new SR players towards ASAP.

I own all of the SR novels released before SR4, but many of them
create more confusion than clarity. All too often, the author's
vision and direction don't match the Shadowrun game rules. I do
encourage new players to read some SR novels:

2XS (one of the best)
Night's pawn
Lone Wolf (also really good)
Shadowplay
Just Compensation
Dead Air
Steel Rain

These are selected for showing some aspect of SR pretty well, without
getting too far from what the players should expect their characters
to accomplish. They show a good mix of success, failure, and the
most common, partial success, for the protagonists. They stay far
away from world-shattering magic, hybrid-form lycanthropes, vampires,
immortal elves, god-like characters, and completely inaccurate
descriptions of SR technology. They keep the computer stuff and the
magical stuff to (mostly) sane levels, and don't make the whole plot
hinge on them.

======Korishinzo
--Reactivating lurkware



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Message no. 10
From: zebulingod@*****.com (Zebulin M)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:05:37 -0700
On 4/11/07, Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:

Equilibrium (dystopian)
>
>
I *love* that movie. [
Zebulin
Message no. 11
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Ritter)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 21:17:50 -0400
On 4/11/07, Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> Robocop (excellent examples of cyberlimbs, security armor, Ruger
> Thunderbolt, privatized police, and so on)

Thunderbolt? Check the pic, that's the original Ares Predator.
Granted, the stats don't match.
--
Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 12
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
--- Brett Ritter <swiftone@********.org> wrote:

> On 4/11/07, Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > Robocop (excellent examples of cyberlimbs, security armor, Ruger
> > Thunderbolt, privatized police, and so on)
>
> Thunderbolt? Check the pic, that's the original Ares Predator.
> Granted, the stats don't match.

Robocop's gun fires very much like the description of the Ruger
Thunderbolt. Or a .45 cal machine pistol... either way, it gives a
good example of why anyone without a cyberarm or a troll's strength
could control the weapon.

*smile*

======Korishinzo
--Yay, an SR debate... it's been /months/... *grin*



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Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 11:15:50 +0200
According to Ice Heart, on 12-4-07 04:17 the word on the street was...

>> Thunderbolt? Check the pic, that's the original Ares Predator.
>> Granted, the stats don't match.
>
> Robocop's gun fires very much like the description of the Ruger
> Thunderbolt.

Yes, but the pic for the Predator in SRII is clearly based on the gun
from Robocop. Of course, the Walther Palm Pistol is clearly Deckard's
gun from Blade Runner, the Colt American L36 is straight from BattleTech
Technical Readout: 3026, the CMDT shotgun is a 1960s Stoner 63 carbine,
the Colt M22A2 is a 1970s HK 36 assault rifle, etc., etc., etc. :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wij komen van Ertvelde.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: mightyflapjack@*****.com (Mightyflapjack)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:37:07 -0400
Honestly I would not place Robocop's Gun as a Heavy Pistol (large caliber
pistol).

Too much ammunition capacity to be a heavy pistol. I know that some "movie"
magic is allowed, but Robocop's pistol had a minimum of 50 rounds. No way
to fit 50 large caliber round slugs in a non-extended magazine. My guess it
would be something along the Five SeveN ammunition (5.7x28mm) steel/tungsten
or steel/aluminum core rifle type bullets. These would provide much better
armor penetration, higher velocities, and more manageable recoil.

I would place Robocop's pistol into the "machine pistol" category and also
"military" ordinance. Ammunition would be regulated like the Barrett 121.

And the Ingram Smartgun was based on the popular Mac-10 from the 80s

-MF
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:19:04 +0200
According to Mightyflapjack, on 13-4-07 03:37 the word on the street was...

> Honestly I would not place Robocop's Gun as a Heavy Pistol (large caliber
> pistol).

As far as stats go, I'd agree, but not the picture :)

> And the Ingram Smartgun was based on the popular Mac-10 from the 80s

Only the picture (see my other post for some other examples of this
practice, but there are more). The stats are as made-up as most SR
weapon stats are :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wij komen van Ertvelde.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:07:08 -0300
If you're showing them Equilibrium as an example of dystopia, don't
get surprised when it later turns out that everyone wants to make a
guy who knows Gunkata :).

I don't think I have ever seen a movie that's more similar to
Shadowrun than Nirvana (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0119794/). It has a
dystopian future, similar technology, and even a touch of mysticism.

Of the anime series mentioned so far, I'd say the planetside sequences
in Cowboy Bebop are the most similar.

Ghost in the Shell is pretty close, too, but I'd think it very amusing
if someone recommends it as a "perfect example" and later goes on to
reap scord upon the implausible nature of SR4's wireless Matrix :).


--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 17
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:00:10 +0200
On 13 Apr 2007, at 11:19, Gurth wrote:

>> And the Ingram Smartgun was based on the popular Mac-10 from the 80s
>
> Only the picture (see my other post for some other examples of this
> practice, but there are more). The stats are as made-up as most SR
> weapon stats are :)

The funniest bit in this being that most Smartgun pictures show a
Mac-10 with its huge silencer, yet the stats say the Smartgun doesn't
accept barrel-mounted accessories and thus can't be suppressed. Go
figure. ^^

-- Wild_Cat
Message no. 18
From: mightyflapjack@*****.com (Mightyflapjack)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 09:07:57 -0400
Bira wrote:

> Ghost in the Shell is pretty close, too, but I'd think it very amusing
> if someone recommends it as a "perfect example" and later goes on to
> reap scord upon the implausible nature of SR4's wireless Matrix :).
>
>
I do not find wireless Matrix to be implausible. All you need is one more
thing "Faster then light data transfer". I say in the 2060s they finally
figured out how to create, direct, and send data via "Tachyons" .

That way you can have basically unlimited bandwidth and wireless Matrix.
The only issue there becomes the fact that Tachyons are not radio waves and
can not be 'jammed' etc... but I figured if a society is advanced enough to
create Tachyons then it could also find a way to block / jam / intercept
them.

Due to that, there would still be a need for "wired systems" using Tachyons
to prevent it from being blocked / jamed / or intercepted.

.. However, Bira, If you were referring to the "rules" for SR4 wireless Web
then I agree they need some work.
Message no. 19
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 08:23:06 -0500
> The funniest bit in this being that most Smartgun pictures show a
> Mac-10 with its huge silencer, yet the stats say the Smartgun doesn't
> accept barrel-mounted accessories and thus can't be suppressed. Go
> figure. ^^
>
> -- Wild_Cat
Isn't that because it's got an integrated gas vent system?
Message no. 20
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:35:52 +0200
According to Derek Hyde, on 13-4-07 15:23 the word on the street was...

>> the stats say the Smartgun doesn't
>> accept barrel-mounted accessories and thus can't be suppressed.
>
> Isn't that because it's got an integrated gas vent system?

Yes. I've always ruled you can remove this sort of thing and fit another
accessory if you want, unless the rules explicitly say the accessory is
built-in rather than fitted to a mount.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wij komen van Ertvelde.
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:46:00 -0300
On 4/13/07, Mightyflapjack <mightyflapjack@*****.com> wrote:
> Bira wrote:
>
> > Ghost in the Shell is pretty close, too, but I'd think it very amusing
> > if someone recommends it as a "perfect example" and later goes on to
> > reap scord upon the implausible nature of SR4's wireless Matrix :).
> >
> >
> I do not find wireless Matrix to be implausible. All you need is one more
> thing "Faster then light data transfer". I say in the 2060s they finally
> figured out how to create, direct, and send data via "Tachyons" .

I took the rulebook's text to mean "don't bother tracking bandwidth
and memory usage, it's too finnicky", rather than "it's faster than
light!".

>
> .. However, Bira, If you were referring to the "rules" for SR4 wireless Web
> then I agree they need some work.

I'm refering mostly to the habit some people have of slamming those
rules. Are they completely 100% realistic and detailed? No. Do they
need to be? No.

Ghost in the Shell has an even sketchier model for wireless networks,
and characters in that world frequently do the things "wireless
Matrix" detractors constanly throw fits about. I was simply saying I'd
find it funny if someone who was heavily critical of SR's wireless
Matrix cited Ghost in the Shell as a good reference for the game.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
http://sinfoniaferida.blogspot.com
Message no. 22
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:35:35 +0000
On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 09:07:57AM -0400, Mightyflapjack wrote:
> Bira wrote:
>
> >Ghost in the Shell is pretty close, too, but I'd think it very amusing
> >if someone recommends it as a "perfect example" and later goes on to
> >reap scord upon the implausible nature of SR4's wireless Matrix :).
> >
> >
> I do not find wireless Matrix to be implausible. All you need is one more
> thing "Faster then light data transfer". I say in the 2060s they finally
> figured out how to create, direct, and send data via "Tachyons" .
>
> That way you can have basically unlimited bandwidth and wireless Matrix.
> The only issue there becomes the fact that Tachyons are not radio waves and
> can not be 'jammed' etc... but I figured if a society is advanced enough to
> create Tachyons then it could also find a way to block / jam / intercept
> them.
>
> Due to that, there would still be a need for "wired systems" using Tachyons
> to prevent it from being blocked / jamed / or intercepted.
>

Just so you know, the physicist in me is screaming in pain right now. I don't even know
where to begin saying what's wrong with this...

That said, while I do think the wireless Matrix in SR4 is fairly implausible, there are so
many things in Shadowrun that are so much more implausible it's really not worth worrying
about.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 23
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Ritter)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 13:41:26 -0400
On 4/13/07, David Kettler <davek@***.lonestar.org> wrote:
> That said, while I do think the wireless Matrix in SR4 is fairly implausible, there
are so
> many things in Shadowrun that are so much more implausible it's really not worth
> worrying about.

Pretty much. It's not reality that matters as much as suspension of
disbelief anyway. When someone says "this fantasy game is
unrealistic", they usually mean it hurts their suspension of
disbelief, not the laws of physics.

There's a Popular Science article from 1950 that projected what life
would be like in 2000. We had personal helicopters, all-plastic
houses that were hosed down (drain in the center of the room) to
clean, all-plastic dishes that were melted in the sink rather than
clean......and we had likely just orbited the moon, but hadn't yet
landed there.

Suspension of Disbelief does some funny things. Heck, I'm baffled by
modern wireless, trained as I was by the 1200 baud glory days over
copper. SR4 wireless matrix makes a lot more sense to my gut than the
SR1-3 wired matrices.

--
Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 24
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT)
> > That said, while I do think the wireless Matrix in SR4 is fairly
> implausible, there are so
> > many things in Shadowrun that are so much more implausible it's
> really not worth
> > worrying about.

> Pretty much. It's not reality that matters as much as suspension
> of
> disbelief anyway. When someone says "this fantasy game is
> unrealistic", they usually mean it hurts their suspension of
> disbelief, not the laws of physics.


Pretty much... I think we proved long ago that any of us are capable
of coming up with compelling and logical arguments on all sides of
any debate about SR*.

Truth is, everyone argues for the game they like to play, and against
the game they don't. As often as not, each person co-opts the same
argument to support their side as the opposition just used to justify
their position.

It took me a long time to realize that the "problem" with SR4 is that
I hate it. No argument of logic in its favor will change that. I
can counter with identical logic to decry it. Each side will be
utterly convinced they are "right".

In truth SR4 and SR3 both suck... or rock... or are simply "meh"...

Wireless matrix versus wired? Both completely goofy abstractions of
real world networking/computing. One, I am willing to make myself
accept, the other I am not.

Weapon weights? Astral projection? Vehicle vs. metahuman
initiative?

Pick your category of broken in one edition, and it has a counterpart
in another. The deciding factor becomes which one you are willing to
work with. Write house rules for... edit for realism... etc...

SR1-3, I was, and remain, willing. SR4, I will never be willing.

What slotted me off at the onset of the new edition, what slots me
off today, and what will slot me off every time I think of it
henceforth...

I, and a lot of other fans who've thrown their time, money, and
enthusiasm into SR since 1989, found out SR3 was getting summarily
abandoned and SR4 was the new deal after it was too late to do more
than flounder about the blogosphere (or blogoblag, or intartubes,
or... pick your favorite xkcd-ism) in impotent frustration. Too many
decision were irrevocably made before many of us had a chance to even
say "But... I... had a suggestion...?"

That the resulting product is not one I'd give time, money, or
enthusiasm to in even the smallest measure is simply icing on the
marginalized-fan cake.

There is a scene in a movie with Michael Douglas and Annette Bening
called The American President... cotton-candy romantic film. Has,
however, one scene relevant in current context. The president has
just screwed his girlfriend's pet political project to save his own.
He says "I don't want to lose you over this." Her come-back is
pithy, biting, and ultimately trite. It is also mine to the current
stewards of SR. "You have a lot more to worry about than losing me,
[Mr. President], you just lost my vote."

Having vented all that into the Interwebz, for no apparent reason,
I'll straggle back on topic (sort of).

Pick your edition, and rewrite the parts you find
lacking/implausible/etc to suit yourself. Or wait for SR5. I think
it uses a telepathic matrix, and magic requires certain color
manacrystals to power it. Vehicles may or may not be playable
character races. And oh yea, in SR5, cheetos AND underpants are both
now wireless (tip of the hat to Marc).

======Korishinzo
--recalling what prompted me to shut up for a few months...

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 25
From: mightyflapjack@*****.com (Mightyflapjack)
Subject: SR introduction
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:51:38 -0400
David Said:
Just so you know, the physicist in me is screaming in pain right now. I
don't even know where to begin saying what's wrong with this...

That said, while I do think the wireless Matrix in SR4 is fairly
implausible, there are so many things in Shadowrun that are so much more
implausible it's really not worth worrying about.


Reply:
I am not trying to make science. I am just trying to make up a
pseudo-science that works for me and is consistent.

To me its like Star Trek "The Next Generation", for seasons 1-6 they had a
strong technical department that tried to keep their pseudo-science
straight. However, in season 7 they completely threw all that information
away. It had been established that "Warp 10" was infinite speed (occupying
all space in the universe simultaneously), then suddenly in a future episode
(don't get me started on how they handled "time travel") they were going
"Warp 13"... um? huh?

I don't care if it is fake, but I do want consistency.

==

SR3 had its faults, but it was usable. SR4 tried to simplify everything,
and in doing so broke most of it.

My biggest complaints are with Fan Pro / Wiz Kids.

I met with WizKids at a convention in mid 2005. The employees I talked with
(who was introduced as a vice president) did not even know what Shadowrun
was, and after explaining it to him said curtly "We just license to them
[Fan Pro]." Then proceed to try and sell me miniatures.

Fan Pro released SR4 on Oct 2005, and did not release its first 'true'
expansion "runner havens" until July 2006 over 9 months later.


==-MF

Signature "I post this because I felt like it, not because I was trying to
convince you of anything. To defend it would require changing your opinions
and I do not have the means or will to do that. As the fortune cookie says
"If a war can not be fought; don't fight it" so I will not defend it as
anything other then opinion. "

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about SR introduction, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!