Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject:	SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:22:16 EST

Message no. 1 Okayyyyy, let's see what we've gotten here....

In answer to the question "Is Shadowrun lethal enough?" the general consensus
I've gotten has run around the form of "Yes, but...." Most people seem to
think that it's lethal enough at the "normal" level but breaks down at the
higher end of the scale.

With that in mind, I'd like to toss around a couple of ideas:

(1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee, magic,
and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and stages
the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes his
resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the attacker's
test).

(2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages the
Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
damage down one step.

This should address two problems that have been mentioned: it's a lot easier
for characters with low Combat Skills to achieve enough successes (before
including Combat Pool dice) to do real damage, and now light pistolsand knives
are a real threat (it only takes 3 successes to score these up from Light to
Deadly damage, instead of 6). By leaving the Resistance Test unchanged, it
shouldn't make it Shadowrun more lethal than it already is.

(3) Currently any additional successes (after scoring damage to Deadly) have
no effect, unless using the optional Deadlier Over-damage Rules (either the
FoF version or the SRComp version). Consider this idea: any "leftover"
successes, after staging up the damage to Deadly, increases the target number
for the Damage Resistance Test, at a rate of +1 for every *two* successes
above and beyond.

This does not necessarily nullify the Deadlier Over-damage Rules. Those rules
require that the Power be greater than a threshold (2x Body or 1.5x Body,
depending on the verion used). The +1 modifier/2 successes may apply to
weapons that do not meet the Deadlier Over-damage criteria.

One final note: as they stand, ideas (1), (2), and (3) are not interlinked
together and can stand apart from each other.

Let me know what you think. Are any of these ideas worth considering? All of
them? None of them? Some of them? Why or why not?

Thanks,
-- Jon

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:11:55 EST

Message no. 2 In a message dated 97-12-23 17:28:16 EST, JonSzeto@***.com writes:

> Okayyyyy, let's see what we've gotten here....

Handing over the Monacle of Obscured Seeing....

> In answer to the question "Is Shadowrun lethal enough?" the general
> consensus
> I've gotten has run around the form of "Yes, but...." Most people seem to
> think that it's lethal enough at the "normal" level but breaks down at the
> higher end of the scale.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to toss around a couple of ideas:

Giving Jon the beanie babies to go with the new "Toss Across"...

> (1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee,
> magic,
> and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
> target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
> changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and
> stages
> the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes
his
> resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the
attacker'
> s
> test).

Actually, we've never stopped using the "Resisted Test", and things are more
than lethal enough...even with Armor rules, things remain. What really sucks
is the levels of armor that a cybertype (or anyone for that matter) can stack
up. Especially if a magician's Barrier Magics get thrown into things.

> (2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages
the
> Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
> Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
> step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
> damage down one step.

OH MY GOD!!!! NO, I won't...no Saber Missiles under these rules...NO!!!
(warding gestures, various holy relics, and some spitting ensue)

> This should address two problems that have been mentioned: it's a lot
easier
> for characters with low Combat Skills to achieve enough successes (before
> including Combat Pool dice) to do real damage, and now light pistolsand
> knives
> are a real threat (it only takes 3 successes to score these up from Light
to
> Deadly damage, instead of 6). By leaving the Resistance Test unchanged, it
> shouldn't make it Shadowrun more lethal than it already is.

And that example alone is more than worth not utilizing things. It leaves the
rules open for major levels of abuse. I hate to say it, but the "Weapon
Damage by Target Size" stuff from AD&D is probably the best thing here.
Vehicles, and now Ships, adjust the damage codes, so that helps, but a "Sword"
being swung at a "Great Dragon" does Moderate Damage (which for people is the
equivalent of losing a Hand or Foot btw)??????????? I don't think so...

> (3) Currently any additional successes (after scoring damage to Deadly)
have
> no effect, unless using the optional Deadlier Over-damage Rules (either the
> FoF version or the SRComp version). Consider this idea: any "leftover"
> successes, after staging up the damage to Deadly, increases the target
> number
> for the Damage Resistance Test, at a rate of +1 for every *two* successes
> above and beyond.

We were just about to use this option actually...it's a variation on the
original rules actually for "reducing armor values" if you think about it.
Except it means more if the character is unarmored (I think I like this
actually).

> This does not necessarily nullify the Deadlier Over-damage Rules. Those
> rules
> require that the Power be greater than a threshold (2x Body or 1.5x Body,
> depending on the verion used). The +1 modifier/2 successes may apply to
> weapons that do not meet the Deadlier Over-damage criteria.

Oooh, the killer Backstab is BACK!!!

> One final note: as they stand, ideas (1), (2), and (3) are not interlinked
> together and can stand apart from each other.

That's Nice... ;)

> Let me know what you think. Are any of these ideas worth considering? All
of
> them? None of them? Some of them? Why or why not?

Some of them and read the above...

> Thanks,
> -- Jon

-K (peaking out, waiting for the flame war to start elsewhere)

From:	TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:09:53 -0600

Message no. 3 JonSzeto wrote:
> (1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee, magic,
> and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
> target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
> changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and stages
> the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes his
> resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the attacker's
> test).

Actually I've tried both ways.. and the second method playtests out
with a lot of problems. The problem comes in with staging the attack
"Above Deadly" - since this technically isn't possible, you run into
some creatures, NPC's and even players that simply cannot be hurt at all
by weapons smaller than an SMG despite the skill of it's user. The
first method actually makes the system deadlier than the second.

> (2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages the
> Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
> Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
> step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
> damage down one step.

Hmm.. that has possiblities. Unfortunatly that might make the game a
little too lethal. I'll run some numbers tonite and see what the
averages play out at.

> This should address two problems that have been mentioned: it's a lot easier
> for characters with low Combat Skills to achieve enough successes (before
> including Combat Pool dice) to do real damage, and now light pistolsand knives
> are a real threat (it only takes 3 successes to score these up from Light to
> Deadly damage, instead of 6). By leaving the Resistance Test unchanged, it
> shouldn't make it Shadowrun more lethal than it already is.

Personally I don't think people with low combat skills should have much
damage potential in combat without taking the time to aim. I think of
it as the "stay out of the way" syndrome. People who are not trained
for combat are usually far to busy trying to keep from getting killed
and as a result they don't shoot very straight or very well. If they
actually take the time to aim, it reduces their target numbers and
allows them to do more damage. I find this a more than adequate
simulation of reality. Just my opinion, but I think the damage system
is just fine as is.

> (3) Currently any additional successes (after scoring damage to Deadly) have
> no effect, unless using the optional Deadlier Over-damage Rules (either the
> FoF version or the SRComp version). Consider this idea: any "leftover"
> successes, after staging up the damage to Deadly, increases the target number
> for the Damage Resistance Test, at a rate of +1 for every *two* successes
> above and beyond.

Hmm.. now that also has some possiblities, but once again I'll have to
run some numbers to see how it plays out. But as I mentioned before, I
personally think the damage rules as is are just fine. Although you
might wish to suggest these as alternates in SR3, I for one thing it
would be very unfortunate to alter the original rules in this regard as
a baseline.

Digger

From:	Ralph and Ivy Ryan <sgmpaws@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:51:03 -0500

Message no. 4 Hi,

The system that we have is better. The unskilled aren't dangerous anyway.

Ivy K

----------
> From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: SR Lethality Follow-up
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 5:22 PM
>
> Okayyyyy, let's see what we've gotten here....
>
> In answer to the question "Is Shadowrun lethal enough?" the general
consensus
> I've gotten has run around the form of "Yes, but...." Most people seem to
> think that it's lethal enough at the "normal" level but breaks down at
the
> higher end of the scale.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to toss around a couple of ideas:
>
> (1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee,
magic,
> and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
> target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
> changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and
stages
> the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes
his
> resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the
attacker's
> test).
>
> (2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages
the
> Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
> Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
> step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
> damage down one step.
>
> This should address two problems that have been mentioned: it's a lot
easier
> for characters with low Combat Skills to achieve enough successes (before
> including Combat Pool dice) to do real damage, and now light pistolsand
knives
> are a real threat (it only takes 3 successes to score these up from Light
to
> Deadly damage, instead of 6). By leaving the Resistance Test unchanged,
it
> shouldn't make it Shadowrun more lethal than it already is.
>
> (3) Currently any additional successes (after scoring damage to Deadly)
have
> no effect, unless using the optional Deadlier Over-damage Rules (either
the
> FoF version or the SRComp version). Consider this idea: any "leftover"
> successes, after staging up the damage to Deadly, increases the target
number
> for the Damage Resistance Test, at a rate of +1 for every *two* successes
> above and beyond.
>
> This does not necessarily nullify the Deadlier Over-damage Rules. Those
rules
> require that the Power be greater than a threshold (2x Body or 1.5x Body,
> depending on the verion used). The +1 modifier/2 successes may apply to
> weapons that do not meet the Deadlier Over-damage criteria.
>
> One final note: as they stand, ideas (1), (2), and (3) are not
interlinked
> together and can stand apart from each other.
>
> Let me know what you think. Are any of these ideas worth considering? All
of
> them? None of them? Some of them? Why or why not?
>
> Thanks,
> -- Jon

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:14:24 +0100

Message no. 5 JonSzeto said on 17:22/23 Dec 97...

> In answer to the question "Is Shadowrun lethal enough?" the general
consensus
> I've gotten has run around the form of "Yes, but...." Most people seem to
> think that it's lethal enough at the "normal" level but breaks down at the
> higher end of the scale.

Pretty accurate summary, I think.

> (1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee, magic,
> and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
> target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
> changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and stages
> the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes his
> resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the attacker's
> test).

IOW, reaching back to SR1's damage handling rules. To be honest, I don't
think it'll make all that much of a difference. With this system, the
attacker rolling an odd number of successes doesn't help, while in the
current system it does because the target needs to remove one additional
success. The other side is that rolling an odd number of successes won't
help the defender either, since the last one is left over as well.

On the whole, everything would probably stay as it is, except if it's
combined with your second suggestion:

> (2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages the
> Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
> Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
> step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
> damage down one step.

This would work to make firearms much more lethal to strong (high Body)
characters with plenty of armor as well as unarmored, low-Body folks. It
could easily confuse new players, though, as the number of successes
required to stage up the damage is different from those needed to stage it
down again.

My own favorite is still to go back to SR1 and re-introduce Staging
numbers for damage codes.

> One final note: as they stand, ideas (1), (2), and (3) are not interlinked
> together and can stand apart from each other.

I think #1 doesn't really change much unless #2 is implemented as well.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:03:28 +0100

Message no. 6 >(1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee,
magic,
>and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
>target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
>changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and stages
>the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes his
>resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the
attacker's
>test).

I would prefer that all combat tests are opposed tests (remem that melee
combat is resisted test in SR2). The reason is that if the TN is too low,
you can't kill the target. Lets say you fire with your sniper rifle and get
6 successes (a great shot). Your target gets (with luck!) 2 successes and
so takes a serious wound. So, what ? As we can see, luck becomes more
important than skill. If you're lucky, whatever your opponent, you won't
die. I don't like it but I can easily understand one would like such a system.

>(2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages the
>Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
>Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
>step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
>damage down one step.

Ouch!

>This should address two problems that have been mentioned: it's a lot easier
>for characters with low Combat Skills to achieve enough successes (before
>including Combat Pool dice) to do real damage, and now light pistolsand
knives
>are a real threat (it only takes 3 successes to score these up from Light to
>Deadly damage, instead of 6). By leaving the Resistance Test unchanged, it
>shouldn't make it Shadowrun more lethal than it already is.

It doesn't change resistance test for a resisted test, not an opposed one.
In fact, this rule won't change most results. A lot of shadowrunners do get
at least 4 successes at their hit. What does such a sytem :
* First, you will have a deadly wound with most weapons. So, why use a
shotgun which is difficult to conceal instead of a pistol. Same, there's no
need to fire in an automatic mode because you really easily get a deadly
wound.
* If the system keeps opposed, I think it will become far too deadly.
Everyone will be killed by almost every one. Lets take an exemple : Joe the
sammy has a pistol loaded with APDS and is facing a dragon. Joe gets init
and fires on the dragon. With a TN of 2, he gets something like 10
successes. The dragon uses its body of 30 against a TN of 5(9 - 8/2) and
gets 10 successes. The result is that the dragon is dead... I don't think
SR universe makes dragons so easily killed.

>(3) Currently any additional successes (after scoring damage to Deadly) have
>no effect, unless using the optional Deadlier Over-damage Rules (either the
>FoF version or the SRComp version). Consider this idea: any "leftover"
>successes, after staging up the damage to Deadly, increases the target number
>for the Damage Resistance Test, at a rate of +1 for every *two* successes
>above and beyond.

I agree. Those rules are to be chosen by each GM. It's their choice to make
the game deadly or not. With the original system, the character is out of
combat and with the second, he's dead...

>One final note: as they stand, ideas (1), (2), and (3) are not interlinked
>together and can stand apart from each other.

I tried to interpret it like this. :)

>Let me know what you think. Are any of these ideas worth considering? All of
>them? None of them? Some of them? Why or why not?

Since I don't like to criticize without giving some proposition/explanation
(I know at least one person in this list who doesn't...), I'll explain the
system I use and the reasons why I use it.

I was searching for a system allowing me to have a more deadly system which
won't allow a great creature to be killed too easily. Another thing was to
have a system for burst/automatic fire that would be more *reallistic*.
Here is what I came with :
* Combat : You have two different ways of firing. The first is the wild
shot (normal TN). The second is the aimed shot (TN +4 or +2 with smartlink
II). This is the same for melee combat.
* Health : You have 5 wound categories : Scartch, light, moderate, serious
and deadly with a variable number of boxes. These numbers are calculated
like this (always round down):

scratch (+0 TN) : [B+W]/4
light (+1 TN) : [B+W]/2
moderate (+2 TN) : [B+W]*1.5
serious (+3 TN) : [B+W]/2
deadly (+5 TN) : W

Each wounds are monitored on this condition monitor. Mental wound are noted
with a / and physical with a cross.
* Damage : For firearms, you get some characteristics. To calaculate
damage, you have power and penetration. For exemple, a light pistol has 5/4
and an assault rifle has 10/8. When it's capable of burst fire, you also
have a rate of fire (RF). For an assault rifle, it would be 15 (calculated
on number of rounds per second).
For melee weapons, you have a minimum strength to use the weapon (and a
quickness factor for speed, but it's typical to the init system I use) and
a power (no penetration). To get the damage of your weapon, you takethe
power and sum half the difference from your strength and the minimum
strength. Thus a sword would have a power of 6 and min. strength of 4. If
you have a strength of 8, this will give a final damage of 8.
* Fight : Okay. Now let's go to the fight. You make your attack and the
defender tries to dodge. The TN for dodge is 4 with modifiers depending on
the environnment (a wall to hide...). You count the net successes of the
attack and add it to the damage of the weapon. If your penetration is 2
times higher than the armor, you have no armor. If it is higher than armor,
you have an armor value of 2*armor - penetration and with a penetration
less than armor, you don't get any primary damage damage (see below) and
apply your impact armor on secondary damage. If your armor is soft, you
always have a secondary damage. It is equal to half the damage of the
attack. It is mental if attack is physical and physical if attack is mental.
Now, if you made an aimed shot, you don't add your successes but multiply
the base damage by your number of successes. Scary thought neh...
So, if Joe fires with his AR, he will score 10 successes which will make a
base damage of 18 and secondary damage of 9. Enough to kill most people
except the big ones. If he had made an aimed shot (with a smartlink II), he
would have scored 6 successes for a total damage of 48 and secondary damage
of 24. If you think it's too much, use half the successes instead of every
success.
For melee weapons, you do the same but the base power is power - impact.
With a sword, Joe would have scored 6 successes (for a TN 4) for total
damage of 14 and secondary damage of 7. With an aimed shot, he would have
scored 2 success for a total damage of 16 and secondary damage of 8.

Automatic fire : You get one more die to roll for your test. Thus, if you
fire fire with your AR, you will get 15 more dices to roll ! Automatic fire
is always considered wild shot.
Now for technics. With your roll, you will find how many shots hit. To now
this, check if you have a success for every bullet. The recoil is +2 for
every bullet after the first one. Lets say Joe fires and scores these
successes :
1,1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,6,6,7,8,10,10,11,17,18
He also supresses 5 levels of recoil. This makes difficulties for his
bullets of : 4, 4 (recoil 2), 4 (recoil 4), 5 (recoil 6), 7 (recoil 8), 9
(recoil 10), 11 (recoil 12) to the last bullet 21 (recoil 22).
He gets 4 dices at 4 and so gets the three first bullets with a net success.
He gets 4 dices at 5+ and so gets the 4th bullet with 3 net success.
He gets 2 dices at 7+ and so gets the 5th bullet with 1 net success.
He gets 2 dices at 9+ and so gets the 6th bullet with 1 net success.
He gets 1 dice at 11+ and so gets the 7th bullet.
He gets 1 dice at 13+ and so gets the 8th bullet.
He gets 1 dice at 15+ and so gets the 9th bullet.
The total damage is equal to the base damage multiplied by the number of
bullets that hit and then summing the net successes. Thus Joes does a
damage equal to 8*9 + 5 = 77 !!!

I have some more items but I'm getting tired of writing this. If you're
interested in it, perhaps I could send you the entire system. Whatever your
point of view (I think it would be difficult to use it in the actual SR
system), please send a reply ! It took me some time to write all this.

>Thanks,
You're welcome. I really mean it. It's pleasant to see that conceptors in
FASA do care about opinions of players.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

From:	Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:09:35 -0800

Message no. 7 Ralph and Ivy Ryan wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The system that we have is better. The unskilled aren't dangerous anyway.
>
> Ivy K

[Remainder of quoted, uncommented post snipped]

Ivy dear, be a doll and read the FAQ. If you've been away as long as you
say, I say your posting ettiquette is a touch rusty.

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
Women. Can't live with them, can't hit them back.
FAQ Flunky of the SRcard and ShadowRN Mailing Lists
http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/shadowrn/srnfaq1.html <= Get it. Memorize!
Required Reading => http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srtcg/tcgfaq1.html

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 07:53:23 -0700

Message no. 8 JonSzeto wrote:
/
/ (1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee, magic,
/ and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
/ target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
/ changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and stages
/ the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes his
/ resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the attacker's
/ test).

It must be all the holiday food clogging my arteries and slowing down
the oxygen to my brain, but what's the difference?

/ (2) For both the Attack and Resistance Tests, every two successes stages the
/ Damage Level up (or down) by one step. Consider this idea: during the
/ Attacker's Test, every *single* success stages the Damage Level up by one
/ step; for the Resistance Test, it still takes two successes to stage the
/ damage down one step.

If one of my players had to do it this way his head would explode :)

Stick with KISS and have the same staging for both the attacker and the
defend, IMHO.

/ (3) Currently any additional successes (after scoring damage to Deadly) have
/ no effect, unless using the optional Deadlier Over-damage Rules (either the
/ FoF version or the SRComp version). Consider this idea: any "leftover"
/ successes, after staging up the damage to Deadly, increases the target number
/ for the Damage Resistance Test, at a rate of +1 for every *two* successes
/ above and beyond.

Again, needless math (again IMHO). Rotating through the staging like
Gurth does (Deadly to Deadly+Light to Deadly+Moderate, etc) is much
simpler. Or adding to the staging chart (Deadly(10), Deadly(15),
Deadly(21), etc).

/ Let me know what you think. Are any of these ideas worth considering? All of
/ them? None of them? Some of them? Why or why not?
/
/ Thanks,
/ -- Jon

Hope I helped :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:21:56 +0100

Message no. 9 David Buehrer said on 7:53/24 Dec 97...

> / (1) Currently the basic combat test (in other words, for ranged, melee, magic,
> / and so on) is an Opposed Test: whoever gets more successes (attacker or
> / target) stages up or stages down the damage, as appropriate. How about
> / changing this back to a Resisted Test: The attacker makes his test and stages
> / the damage up, based on the number of successes. Then the defender makes his
> / resistance test, staging down the damage from the result (after the attacker's
> / test).
>
> It must be all the holiday food clogging my arteries and slowing down
> the oxygen to my brain, but what's the difference?

The difference appears when you roll an odd number of successes. For
example, Bill takes a shot at Wally with his SMG (7M) and gets 5
successes. Wally gets 6 successes.

Under SRII rules, Wally would take a Moderate wound: his 6 successes
negate the 5 Bill got, and the one left over isn't enough to stage it down
to Light.

Under SR1 rules, and Jon's suggestion, Wally would take a Light wound:
Bill's first four successes stage damage up to Deadly, and the fifth
doesn't do anything. Wally's 6 successes then stage the Deadly down to
Light.

> Again, needless math (again IMHO). Rotating through the staging like
> Gurth does (Deadly to Deadly+Light to Deadly+Moderate, etc) is much
> simpler. Or adding to the staging chart (Deadly(10), Deadly(15),
> Deadly(21), etc).

That last option is _really_ deadly. I remember I thought about using it
before setting on the system I use now, and it's probably a good thing I
didn't try it out in a game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR Lethality Follow-up
Date:	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:02:30 +0000

Message no. 10 And verily, did Dvixen hastily scribble thusly...
|Ivy dear, be a doll and read the FAQ. If you've been away as long as you
|say, I say your posting ettiquette is a touch rusty.

Understatement of the year?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

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