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Message no. 1
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:40:46 -0700
> concentrate on atmosphere. He thinks SR should be very focused on the
> business of shadowrunning only (but the BOO and 50 Years of the Awakening
> books look promising). I think he is wrong in this criminal-only
viewpoint,
> but a lot of other people seem happy with it. His biggest crime was
killing
> the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. "Target" is soulless and

Straw poll time here.

Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals
only?

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 2
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:01:52 -0700
Arcady wrote:

> > concentrate on atmosphere. He thinks SR should be very focused on the
> > business of shadowrunning only (but the BOO and 50 Years of the Awakening
> > books look promising). I think he is wrong in this criminal-only
> viewpoint,
> > but a lot of other people seem happy with it. His biggest crime was
> killing
> > the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. "Target" is soulless
and
>
> Straw poll time here.
>
> Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals
> only?

Not me
Message no. 3
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 17:08:11 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."
] Straw poll time here.
]
] Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals
] only?

Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker and
Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat, hasn't every edition of Shadowrun
focused on the character as criminal (heck, even the Rocker and
Reporter had their criminal side, otherwise they wouldn't be very
useful characters). Granted, some adventures/novels had runners
portrayed as do-gooders, but it all boiled down to the same gruel:
runners are criminals. How is Mike's involvement a change?

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 4
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:08:53 +0200
Scott W wrote:
>
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."
> ] Straw poll time here.
> ]
> ] Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals
> ] only?
>
> Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker and
> Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat,

umm, whats silly about it?
I don't think a RPG should be narrowed on a single aspect, I want to
play what i have in mind for a character and not what the system wants
to limit me to.


--
Barbie

"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler

barbie@********.de
http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie/index.html

SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+++ SR3--- h++++ b++ b--- UB++ IE- RN+ SR_D+++ W++
dk sh++++ ri++++ sa+++ ad+++ m+++(x+++) gm++ m+++ P+++(P*)
Message no. 5
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:24:26 +0200
> Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker and
> Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat, hasn't every edition of Shadowrun
> focused on the character as criminal

Nope,...I think there are books out there, for instance the Blood in the
Boardroom adventure book, that give you the opportunity to play "the good
guys" and guidelines to do so.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 6
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:49:15 -0700
Ok. Even it's not a narrowing. If it's just a focus. The question is still
there.
The awakened world of 2060 has so much potential, even for non criminals.
But there is a definite focus on the criminal in most products.

And even Shadowrunners don't need to be criminals. There are other types.
There are outlaws like the Robin Hood motif or Bubble Gum Crisis.
Technically criminals, but heroic ones.
There are the legal options. I'm surprised Companion didn't cover running a
detective agency...

And so on.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Scott W
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 1:08 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: SR Narrowing of focus
>
>
> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Arcady."
> ] Straw poll time here.
> ]
> ] Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down
> to criminals
> ] only?
>
> Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker and
> Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat, hasn't every edition of Shadowrun
> focused on the character as criminal (heck, even the Rocker and
> Reporter had their criminal side, otherwise they wouldn't be very
> useful characters). Granted, some adventures/novels had runners
> portrayed as do-gooders, but it all boiled down to the same gruel:
> runners are criminals. How is Mike's involvement a change?
>
> -------------------------------------------
> PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
> NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
>
>
Message no. 7
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:47:06 -0400
At 12.40 08-14-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Straw poll time here.
>Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals

Not only "no, but "HELL NO!!!" is my vote. I would love to see them do
something more on mercs, and I'm not talking runner riff-raff, maybe a DW
or military sourcebook. And they need to update a bringback the old stuff.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 8
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:50:18 -0400
At 17.08 08-14-99 -0300, you wrote:
>portrayed as do-gooders, but it all boiled down to the same gruel:
>runners are criminals. How is Mike's involvement a change?

So your PCs have never taken a humanitarian op? I throw those at all of
my groups, reguardless of system, every no and then to keep them from
getting complacent and to rattle the muchies and loonies.
Here's one for all you LA runners: earthquake. What do you do, and why?
It is a biggy, R7+. It screws with the published timeline, but "oh well".


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 9
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:20:55 -0400
>Ok. Even it's not a narrowing. If it's just a focus. The question is
still
>there.
>The awakened world of 2060 has so much potential, even for non
criminals.
>But there is a definite focus on the criminal in most products.
>
> And even Shadowrunners don't need to be criminals. There are other
types.
>There are outlaws like the Robin Hood motif or Bubble Gum Crisis.
>Technically criminals, but heroic ones.
> There are the legal options. I'm surprised Companion didn't cover
running a
>detective agency...
>
> And so on.


This might sound a bit crazy, but has anyone ever tried a Scooby
Doo/A-Team-esque campaign? Y'know get some players, pack 'em into a
Roadmaster or something, then have them wander around UCAS like a
bunch of beatniks with mil-spec weaponry? I think that'd be kind of
fun...not having to wait for a Johnson, you just find a town with a
ghost that looks a lot like a troll under a tablecloth... Seriously,
though, that'd put more of an 'adventuring' aspect into the game
rather than a 'surviving in the metroplex' kind of thing, you know?

But on the 'criminal element' focus of Shadowrun, I don't like it,
nosiree. Shadowrunners don't need to be criminals. Why not go for
the vigilante aspect, or as Arcady said, detectives?

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."

>> ] Straw poll time here.
>> ]
>> ] Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down
>> to criminals
>> ] only?
>>
>> Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker
and
>> Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat, hasn't every edition of
Shadowrun
>> focused on the character as criminal (heck, even the Rocker and
>> Reporter had their criminal side, otherwise they wouldn't be very
>> useful characters). Granted, some adventures/novels had runners
>> portrayed as do-gooders, but it all boiled down to the same gruel:
>> runners are criminals. How is Mike's involvement a change?
Message no. 10
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 01:03:59 +0100
In article <3.0.5.32.19990814170811.007be800@********.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Scott W <iscottw@*****.nb.ca> writes
> Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker and
>Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat, hasn't every edition of Shadowrun
>focused on the character as criminal (heck, even the Rocker and
>Reporter had their criminal side, otherwise they wouldn't be very
>useful characters).

Private Detective. Easily able to dip into shadowrunning within the terms
of their licence.

Bodyguard, ditto. Just need to be careful about the jobs you take.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 11
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:56:04 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Barbie, Dennis, and Paul."
] > ] Straw poll time here.
] > ]
] > ] Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to
criminals
] > ] only?
] >
] > Maybe I missed something, but apart from the rather silly Rocker and
] > Reporter archetypes in Shadowbeat,
]
] umm, whats silly about it?
] I don't think a RPG should be narrowed on a single aspect, I want to
] play what i have in mind for a character and not what the system wants
] to limit me to.
]
] --
] Barbie

Darn good point. I still think the Rocker's a bit goofy, but you're
right about going beyond the traditional archetypes. You got me there :)

] Nope,...I think there are books out there, for instance the Blood in the
] Boardroom adventure book, that give you the opportunity to play "the good
] guys" and guidelines to do so.
]
] Dennis

Oh. I guess I _have_ missed something. Strike two...

] Private Detective. Easily able to dip into shadowrunning within the terms
] of their licence.
]
] Bodyguard, ditto. Just need to be careful about the jobs you take.
]
] --
] Paul J. Adam

Well, I've sure been told <sheepish look>. You're all right, there
are plenty of alternate, non-criminal things to do in the SR world
(someone else mentioned mercs, Kevin, I think, and then there's the
stuff in the Companion). Thanks for setting me straight so politely,
guys :)

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 12
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:14:22 +1000
At 19:20 14/08/99 -0400 Angelkiller 404 wrote
>This might sound a bit crazy, but has anyone ever tried a Scooby
>Doo/A-Team-esque campaign?

Damn you meddling kids!!!

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 13
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:27:21 +1000
>>This might sound a bit crazy, but has anyone ever tried a Scooby
>>Doo/A-Team-esque campaign?
>
>Damn you meddling kids!!!

Hell, why stop with Scooby Doo? Why not go on to every OTHER dodgy kids'
cartoon?

Shadowrun with Smurfs... the Jetsons... the Flintstones... the Gummi
Bears... shall I go on? ;-)


Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 02:55:43 EDT
In a message dated 8/14/1999 2:37:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
arcady@***.net writes:

>
> Straw poll time here.
>
> Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals
> only?

I was NOT aware the focus was being narrowed in the way you are
suggesting...in fact, I have a fair amount of proof that "that" is simply not
the case.

-K
Message no. 15
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 04:23:49 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Manx <timburke@*******.com.au>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: SR Narrowing of focus


>At 19:20 14/08/99 -0400 Angelkiller 404 wrote
>>This might sound a bit crazy, but has anyone ever tried a Scooby
>>Doo/A-Team-esque campaign?
>
>Damn you meddling kids!!!


And I would've gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling
shadowrunners!

*L*

Thinking about the shapeshifter Dog and a Dog shaman with a constant
case of the munchies and a questionable habit to those equally
questionable Scooby Snacks, the likes of which are resistant to all
forms of examination, but would be the favorite food of munchkins
everywhere, with it's +1 to all attributes and skills, +4 to Reaction
(the better to run away with), +4d6 Initiative (MUCH better to run
away with), and five seconds of the Bravery Edge.

...if you could possibly get the box away from Velma.

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

*running in fear from Scrappy Doo, the sole representative of the
toxic Dog totem*
Message no. 16
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 06:13:48 -0400 (EDT)
At 12:40 PM 8/14/99 -0700, Arcady wrote these timeless words:
>> concentrate on atmosphere. He thinks SR should be very focused on the
>> business of shadowrunning only (but the BOO and 50 Years of the Awakening
>> books look promising). I think he is wrong in this criminal-only
>viewpoint,
>> but a lot of other people seem happy with it. His biggest crime was
>killing
>> the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. "Target" is soulless
and
>
>Straw poll time here.
>
>Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to criminals
>only?
>
Umm, ok, maybe I missed something here, but... The only "Non Criminal" SR
characters, when you want to get right down to it, came under Mike's
command: Playing Doc Wagon from the Companion and Missions. Other than
that, everything else is pretty much justa different type of Shadowrunner,
which, when you break it down, is nothing but a Criminal at his core. A
Shadowrunner is a mercenary who breaks the law for money.

Now that's a simplified version of it, granted. Some runners will do
anything for cash, including murder and destruction. Some runners have
values or an honor code that they follow. But at their core, they steal,
kill, plunder, kidnap, and break pretty much any and all laws known to man,
if they feel the need. And even after playing Bull, probably the most
goody two shoes runner you'ld ever meet, I can tell you that the only time
the question of whether or not they were breaking a law camne up was when
they had to get through security at an airport or some such. Otherwise,
who cared?

Sure, Shadowbeat had Rockers and Reporters. But it really didn;t ive you
much to work with as far as incorporating that into the Shadowrun world
that the rest of us play in. Unless, of course, you really wanted to
follow the day to day progress of a band struggling to get gigs, get
famous, and stay famous. While this can make for a cool game, with the
right group, it just seems to have a REAL limited focus. Unless of course
the character is also a Runner on the side (Buckaroo Bonzai, anyone? :)).
Which means it's effectively just another "class" (To be vulgar :)) of
Runner. More likely a Sub Class (Mage Rocker, or Sammy Rocker).

On that note, also, I've never once heard Mike say he didn;t like SB. But
I HAVE heard him say several times that he'd like to do more with Shadowrun
than just runners. That's what Corp War, Missions, and Underworld were all
about. They were storyline, they were adventures, and they were something
RUnners could interact with, but they also gave you the flavor and option
of playing something other than a straight runner. Same with Cyberpirates,
and a lot of other stuff...

Well, it's late, and I'm done :] More later, maybe :]

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 17
From: NightRain nightrain@***.com.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:54:15 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: Arcady <arcady@***.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>


>
> Straw poll time here.
>
> Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to
criminals
> only?

Personally, I don't see the narrowing down that everyone is talking about.
But that aside, I much prefer a more 'narrow' view. With the alternate
campaign ideas, FASA either suggests them and then ignores them (why
bother), or they then have to spread their focus too much, so nothing gets
the attention it really needs. So I'd much rather see a tight focus,
leaving other players and GM's to simply use their imagination if they want
to escape the stereotype.

NightRain.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Whatever you do, don't vote! |
| It will only encourage them. |
| ============================== |
| http://nightrain.pagehub.com |
| http://earthdawn.pagehub.com |
| email:nightrain@***.com.au |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 18
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:59:24 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 6:26:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
nightrain@***.com.au writes:

> > Straw poll time here.
> >
> > Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to
> criminals
> > only?
>
> Personally, I don't see the narrowing down that everyone is talking about.
> But that aside, I much prefer a more 'narrow' view. With the alternate
> campaign ideas, FASA either suggests them and then ignores them (why
> bother), or they then have to spread their focus too much, so nothing gets
> the attention it really needs. So I'd much rather see a tight focus,
> leaving other players and GM's to simply use their imagination if they want
> to escape the stereotype.
>
> NightRain.
>


This has veered slightly off topic. Let me explain: When I said Mike was
concentrating down on the criminal aspect of Shadowrun, I never meant that
the game should be a bunch of alternate campaigns. I loathe alternate
campaigns. Shadowrun is always the best to me when it's about shadowrunning.

What this topic was supposed to be about was the lack of atmosphere books
under Mike's direction. Shadowrun was always about shadowrunning (okay,
Shadowbeat aside, at least part of it) but before we had a broad view of the
shadowrun world and what social system we were working under. Shadowrun was
fleshed out as a real living and breathing world that our characters just
operated in, not dominated the spotlight of. The problem with the current
books is the "runner-centric" attitude they have. Everything is about the
business of shadowrunning, how to pull of better shadowruns, which place is
ripe for a shadowrun, ect. And that narrow perspective results in less
satisfying roleplaying experiences. Sure, GMs from before the new system can
do whatever they want and keep the old flavor alive, but what about the new
players SR3 was supposed to bring in? And for the vet GMs the lack of new
sourcebook material fleshing out the world of Shadowrun other than the
business of shadowrunning makes their jobs all the more difficult.

If Shadowrun was just a game about stealing stuff or killing people without
reasons, it wouldn't be interesting at all. It might as well be a GURPS
system. The mechanics are important, and the business of shadowrunning is
central, **but it's the whole reason behind shadowrunning that is being lost
on the youngsters and not supported under the new line**. Look at the
short stories in SR2 and SR3 for this difference. There are clear
atmosphere changes being inflicted on the game world that are pretty
disturbing to this old-timer. SR3's story is really just a "we're commiting
a crime, we get set-up, we seek payback" situation. While SR2 used this same
structure, it filled out the world with actual colors and flavors and
attitudes. It made the world seem real, it gave the actions a purpose and
double-crosses poigancy. I felt nothing when the decker in SR3 died. When
you find out the girl's parents died under torture in SR2, that was shocking
and disturbing in the way it was set-up. (And this situation can't be blamed
on the author of the short in SR3 either. Diane Piron-Gelman is a hell of a
writer based off her Shattered Sphere book. It's the shift in SR's focus
that's the problem.)

The example that came up during my and Mike M.'s debate was Shadowland.
Shadowland only exists because of Neo-Anarchists. And yet Neo-Ananarchists
don't seem to exist in SR3. And then what purpose does Shadowland serve?
When I asked Mike this, he said it was to help shadowrunners, to get them
info the corps don't want them to have, to help them pull of their various
shadowruns. And then I asked why, why would CaptainChaos even care whether
or not some shadowrunners pull off a run or the corps keep their top-secrets
top secret?

The only reason I could think of for this is that shadowrunners are the wild
cards of the Shadowrun universe. They are the only ones who have a chance of
making a difference in an endlessly corrupt world and have a chance to put a
few things right.

And with my opinion of this, Mike agreed completely. But the sourcebook
material that helps new players understand the situation and reinforces the
older player's own worlds isn't being put out there. Shadowrun is now just a
game of crimes and how to commit better ones. Stuff like the Neo-A screed
in NAGNA and Shadowbeat and Shadowfiles and the Neo-A Guide to Real Life and
the science in Shadowtech and the ideals in the merc section of Fields of
Fire presented a dynamic of a world that we currently lack. All those were
groundings in reality which provided meaning to the game through letting us
understand just what condition our players were operating under. They
weren't just about the business of shadowrunning, but they applied to it as a
focus on background.

Of course, SR3 has brought a lot of new players to the game, so maybe people
prefer this different approach. I tend to think SR3 has brought in new
people because it looks crisper and has the actual rules necessary to play
the game rather than the out-dated SR2, but that's just IMHO.



-Twist
Message no. 19
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:04:58 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 2:57:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > Straw poll time here.
> >
> > Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to
> criminals
> > only?
>
> I was NOT aware the focus was being narrowed in the way you are
> suggesting...in fact, I have a fair amount of proof that "that" is simply
> not
> the case.
>
> -K


Examples?




-Twist
Message no. 20
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:35:26 -0700
Twist0059@***.com wrote at 0753 on 15 Aug 99:
<kersnip it all>

I agree. TOTALLY. Yeah, SR3's brought in new players. Maybe it's crisper. But,
y'know what? It doesn't feel that great. It almost is seeming cookie-cutter. "Go
on run. Commit Crime. Get Double-crossed. End. Repeat as necessary."

John
Message no. 21
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:19:07 -0400
At 19.20 08-14-99 -0400, you wrote:
>This might sound a bit crazy, but has anyone ever tried a Scooby
>Doo/A-Team-esque campaign? Y'know get some players, pack 'em into a

Yep. My college's SR group last year was very much like that. We were
tied to a location, but we specialized in missions of mercy with
sideorders of leech hunting and talisman finding.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 22
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:36:09 -0400
At 06.13 08-15-99 -0400, you wrote:
>Sure, Shadowbeat had Rockers and Reporters. But it really didn;t ive you
>much to work with as far as incorporating that into the Shadowrun world

OK, there is a way to incorporate a reporter. You usea team thatfloats
between Knight Errent, Ares military outfit (Hard Corps?), and general
security for differnt divisions, and they have a representative from the
Ares Info/Edutainment Division along. Something like a combat
correspondent, but if you need a PR man, it is already attached to the team.
Or, you can go as a mercenary war correspondent, if you were running a
military/mercenary campain.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 23
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:03:36 -0400
Once upon a time, Penta wrote;

>I agree. TOTALLY. Yeah, SR3's brought in new players. Maybe it's crisper.
>But,
>y'know what? It doesn't feel that great. It almost is seeming
>cookie-cutter. "Go
>on run. Commit Crime. Get Double-crossed. End. Repeat as necessary."

Hey that sounds like SR2. no wait, SR1. Come to think of it what is your
comparison?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"THAT'S NOT FAIR!"
"You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
-Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth

I am MC23
Message no. 24
From: Ken Ken@********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:14:47 -0400
<snip>
> Once upon a time, Penta wrote;
>
> >I agree. TOTALLY. Yeah, SR3's brought in new players. Maybe it's
> crisper.
> >But,
> >y'know what? It doesn't feel that great. It almost is seeming
> >cookie-cutter. "Go
> >on run. Commit Crime. Get Double-crossed. End. Repeat as necessary."
>
> Hey that sounds like SR2. no wait, SR1. Come to think of it what is your
> comparison?
>
>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
> "THAT'S NOT FAIR!"
> "You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
> -Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth
>
> I am MC23
If thats the way things are beginning to seem, maybe you should look at the
gaming group, who Gms, How often, etc...there is MUCH more to be done with
SR1-3 than just go out, get double-crossed, try and survive the doublecross,
etc...

Ken
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:47:59 -0500
> >Straw poll time here.
> >
> >Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down
> >to criminals only?
>
> Umm, ok, maybe I missed something here, but... The only "Non Criminal"
> SR characters, when you want to get right down to it, came under Mike's
> command: Playing Doc Wagon from the Companion and Missions. Other than
> that, everything else is pretty much justa different type of
> Shadowrunner, which, when you break it down, is nothing but a Criminal
> at his core. A Shadowrunner is a mercenary who breaks the law for money.

<major snip>

<2-Step stands up and applauds Bull> Man, you got it in one. If I might be
allowed to quote from the original Big Blue Book, where it gives the
definition of "shadowrun" <rummages around finding BBB>:

"SHADOWRUN n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in carrying
outplans which are illegal or quasilegal." -- WorldWide WordWatch, 2050
update

That's on page 8 of the BBB (the original one).

The focus has *always* been on criminals. I don't understand what most of
you are griping about, since if anything it's a return to the *original*
focus.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 26
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:48:02 -0500
> With the alternate
> campaign ideas, FASA either suggests them and then ignores them (why
> bother), or they then have to spread their focus too much, so nothing
> gets the attention it really needs.

I really think that there's a middle ground that can be reached. Have FASA
suggest the alternate stuff, then leave it and let a freelancer do something
really killer with it, while the primary focus remains on the core of the
system.

Which is sort of what you said in the part I snipped, but it didn't seem too
clear to me for some reason, so here we are again....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 27
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:58:11 -0500
> I agree. TOTALLY. Yeah, SR3's brought in new players. Maybe it's crisper.
> But, y'know what? It doesn't feel that great. It almost is seeming
> cookie-cutter. "Go on run. Commit Crime. Get Double-crossed. End. Repeat
> as necessary."

Are we playing the same game? I'm beginning to think not.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 28
From: Jalong1@***.com Jalong1@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:13:45 EDT
>I agree. TOTALLY. Yeah, SR3's brought in new players. Maybe it's crisper.
But,
>y'know what? It doesn't feel that great. It almost is seeming cookie-cutter.
"Go
>on run. Commit Crime. Get Double-crossed. End. Repeat as necessary."

It is up to the GM to place variety into the game. Some of the best ideas
can come from the players themselves if the GM allows for the team to
role-play some of their personal time.

Such things as Enemies (Slash is still mad at me for stealing his girl),
personal interests (nothing like getting the 'good seat' hidden on the field
of the next urban Brawl game), hobbies (All I need to complete my stamp
collection is the rare upside down biplane stamp that someone else has), or
even the old revenge game (they killed my father, they must die) can be used
to break up the routine.

While many may follow the same general commit crime routine the main
difference is that the players are doing it for themselves and not to further
someone else's goals.

The limit is ultimately up to the Gm and the players.

Jalong1
Message no. 29
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:03:34 -0400
At 11.47 08-15-99 -0500, you wrote:
>The focus has *always* been on criminals. I don't understand what most of
>you are griping about, since if anything it's a return to the *original*

Easy- you can restart with new characters all you want, but if the runs
are the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, people get
bored with the game.

"Not another batch of bugs, we've killed them by the thousands!"
"It's another snatch-and-grab. Yawn."

A lot of this about bad roleplaying, but GMs aren't a limitless pool of
ideas. While we all specialize in a certain kind of op, it helps to have
fresh materials every now and then, and printing new crap that is same old
run gets boring after a while.
FASA's way of dealing with it is to jump ahead five years. While that is
OK, it screws with the histories that GMs might have developed. (ie, The
CFS retakes San Diego, but the last Azzie Colonel to leave the city pulled
the pin on a nuke.) I also disagree with it because it forces people to
upgrade and buy the novels to find out what the hell is being talked about
in sourcebooks. (The first time I read a reference to Dunk's death, it
shocked the hell out of me, almost as much as him having been elected.)
I like then mid-50's, and am advancing at my own rate, but I get sick of
FASA saying that if you want to be able to use the new materials without
extensive editing of the books and having to look over everyone's houlders
during character creation to make sure they don't grab somehting that isn't
availalable yet. I don't know about anyone else, but think forcing
time-line acceleration on players and GMs alienates people to varying degrees.



>focus.
>
>--
>(>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
>
>
>
>
>
Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 30
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:13:26 -0700
> I agree. TOTALLY. Yeah, SR3's brought in new players. Maybe it's
> crisper. But,
> y'know what? It doesn't feel that great. It almost is seeming
> cookie-cutter. "Go
> on run. Commit Crime. Get Double-crossed. End. Repeat as necessary."

I'm one of those new players. And also one of the old players.

I picked up the game when it first came out, liked the setting but couldn't
find people to game it with. So I dropped away until 1998 when I bought the
new edition.

It's definitely a more narrow and less 'appetizing' flavor in the game. In
the old game I could feel at ease with playing the 'Rebel against the
system'. In the new game I feel I'm being asked to play an amoral thug.
There's less for me to identify with.
Why did I buy back in? Cause the new game had a slick look to it and
promised to give me all the rules in a narrowed down focused presentation.
And cause it seemed to fix a few of the things I had seen as major bugs in
the system (I remember playing Food Fight in 1st edition and having a PC
unload a full clip of ammo on auto fire at an unarmored NPC (or the other
way around, can't remember to well) and the victim not even take a single
wound... Then somebody pulling out a knife and killing another character in
one action. I didn't see this and still haven't seen this problem in the new
edition.

But it was definitely not the narrow focus that brought me in. If anything
it may drive me away in a few years after I run dry on ideas from all the
old sourcebooks I've collected...
Hopefully not though.

I brought in a new player last week. After the game he commented to me
about how it looked like it was just a game about thugs and mercenary the
players had been. I told him to give it time as I am trying to see if I can
break my players of that and expand the focus to be a bit more 'romantic'
(as in epic/heroic, not HQ romance novel).

I think Shadowrun is in risk of gaining a lot of new people and then losing
them. Which is actually worse for the long term bottom line than ever
gaining them at all to begin with.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 31
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:13:12 -0700
> I get sick of
> FASA saying that if you want to be able to use the new materials without
> extensive editing of the books and having to look over everyone's houlders
> during character creation to make sure they don't grab somehting
> that isn't
> availalable yet. I don't know about anyone else, but think forcing
> time-line acceleration on players and GMs alienates people to
> varying degrees.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Ok, no one forces you to follow FASA's timeline. You don't like it, you
scrap it. But the big thing in Shadowrun is that it's not a fixed world
<cough>Cyberpunk 2020</cough> and it evolves. Clearly, given that's not the
real world, there has to be somoeone that decides how this evolution is
happening and where it's going. In this case it's FASA.

And I very much like having an evolutionary world setting than a fixed one.

Don't forget that the focus now is on releasing the set of beginners and
advanced rules for 3rd edition. Once this will be done (CC, M&M, Matrix, RR)
we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you call RA:S? A
rule book? And later this year there will be Year of The Comet and related
products, next year Survival of The Fittest and related products....

--Paolo
Message no. 32
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:28:49 -0700
> we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you
> call RA:S? A rule book?

Actually it looked like a Shadowrun version of that dungeon that's in the
middle of Waterdeep in AD&D.
Personally all I've used it for is to set up scenes where the players see a
Lone Star cop and a UCAS soldier on opposite sides of a street glaring each
other down with that "I don't like having you on my turf" look.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 33
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:26:39 CST
>From: "Arcady" <arcady@***.net>
>It's definitely a more narrow and less 'appetizing' flavor in the >game. In
>the old game I could feel at ease with playing the 'Rebel against the
>system'. In the new game I feel I'm being asked to play an >amoral thug.

I disagree there. I'm in an SR3 campaign now and most of the characters (to
my knowledge) are not amoral thugs. For example, I'm playing a merc
character. He has ethics: he won't do wetwork,, hurt folks unneccesarily
(sp), etc. However, he is also new to "indie work" (as he puts it).
However, he is now a runner for the money (he sends a lot home to his mom).
So my character is basically a person who is willing to commit crimes for
money to support his mother, but there are limits to what he will do.

Also, the campaign is different as well. We were all hired to help find out
what happened to an archeological (sp) dig. I think that there is a variety
of runs, you just have to come up with ideas.

> But it was definitely not the narrow focus that brought me in. If anything
>it may drive me away in a few years after I run dry on ideas from all the
>old sourcebooks I've collected...
> Hopefully not though.

Again, it all depends on the GM's creativity. There are scads of different
ideas out there, you just have to think of them.

> I brought in a new player last week. After the game he commented to me
>about how it looked like it was just a game about thugs and mercenary the
>players had been. I told him to give it time as I am trying to see if I can
>break my players of that and expand the focus to be a bit more 'romantic'
>(as in epic/heroic, not HQ romance novel).

You know, I'm always amazed at how often people equatye criminals with
slime. Criminals are people too. Some of the most intersting characters
I've seen had raised themselves out of the gutter with skill, luck and a
sense of honour. Runners may be criminals, but thgat doesn't mean that they
have to be thugs.

>
> I think Shadowrun is in risk of gaining a lot of new people and then
>losing
>them. Which is actually worse for the long term bottom line than ever
>gaining them at all to begin with.

I dunno, most folks I've talked to like the idea of playing "criminals".



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 34
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:35:06 CST
>From: "Arcady" <arcady@***.net>
>
>Actually it looked like a Shadowrun version of that dungeon that's in the
>middle of Waterdeep in AD&D.
> Personally all I've used it for is to set up scenes where the players see
>a
>Lone Star cop and a UCAS soldier on opposite sides of a street glaring each
>other down with that "I don't like having you on my turf" look.


Then you've missed a great opportunity to create an alternate campaign. Try
setting up a campaign artound a resistance cell, an elite group of deckers
trying to get into the arc, a SpecForce sqad trying to clean up the arc, the
possibilities are endless.

Personally, I agree that it's a bit like a "Dungeon Crawl" but who says
those are bad. Some of the best roleplaying I've seen and been a part of
had been in those types of adventures. Think of it. The character are
alone in a hostile environment with no support. See "The Blair Witch
Project" for an idea of what that should be like. Things will go wrong for
the characters. If the characters are in character (which they should be :)
then they should be getting stressed and short-tempered. This leads to
great role-playing.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 35
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:34:22 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 1:21:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jalong1@***.com
writes:

> It is up to the GM to place variety into the game. Some of the best ideas
> can come from the players themselves if the GM allows for the team to
> role-play some of their personal time.
>
I'm gonna agree with Jalong, but add;
in any of the many games out there, the game really is what you make of it.
If someone wants to play a Dungeon-crawl in AD&D, that is fine. Usually these
are the easier runs to GM and, hopefully, eventually the GM and Players will
"evolve" into more role-playing emphasis, and less on combat for its own
sake. (if they don't, but they still have fun, thats fine for them too)
Replace Dungeon-Crawl with "Corporate Raid" or somesuch, and it is the same
thing. Those new players that SR3 is bringing in may just start out that way
and evolve on their own, or not. It does however make it easier than trying
to "teach them to roleplay" when they really are not ready for it yet, etc.
Of course, I also love the old atmosphere stuff, but if YotC is as good as
BitB, then I will like it and keep going.
Message no. 36
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:28:48 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 3:14:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
thatpaolo@****.com writes:

> Don't forget that the focus now is on releasing the set of beginners and
> advanced rules for 3rd edition. Once this will be done (CC, M&M, Matrix,
RR)
> we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you call RA:S?
A
> rule book? And later this year there will be Year of The Comet and related
> products, next year Survival of The Fittest and related products....
>
> --Paolo


Those aren't really atmosphere books, they are situation books and straight
adventures. Atmosphere literally gives you the atmosphere of the SR
universe, not direct job ops.
The look-back on the Awakening will probably be the only atmosphere book, and
I'm looking forward to it myself.

-Twist
Message no. 37
From: Paolo Marcucci thatpaolo@****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:45:41 -0700
> Those aren't really atmosphere books, they are situation books
> and straight
> adventures. Atmosphere literally gives you the atmosphere of the SR
> universe, not direct job ops.
> -Twist

Well, at this point I don't recall a single atmosphere book. Even Shadowbeat
was a "situation" book. I understand your concerns, but SR3 is just a year
old and, with 8-9 new Shadowrun products coming out every year, we can
expect more atmosphere books soon.

Really :)

BTW, I didn't have the occasion to greet everyone on ShadowRN. I'm sort of
back after a long hiatus... HI ALL!

-Paolo
Message no. 38
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:59:05 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 9:09:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
thatpaolo@****.com writes:

> > Those aren't really atmosphere books, they are situation books
> > and straight
> > adventures. Atmosphere literally gives you the atmosphere of the SR
> > universe, not direct job ops.
> > -Twist
>
> Well, at this point I don't recall a single atmosphere book. Even
Shadowbeat
> was a "situation" book. I understand your concerns, but SR3 is just a year
> old and, with 8-9 new Shadowrun products coming out every year, we can
> expect more atmosphere books soon.


No, Shadowbeat was not a situation book. Shutdown and BitB offered definite
activities that the runners can get involved in. They are adventures in a
free-form style of presentation, so they were situation books for lack of a
better term. Shadowbeat was all atmosphere with some alternate-campaign
rules.



-Twist
Message no. 39
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:13:19 -0500
> While we all specialize in a certain kind of op, it helps to have
> fresh materials every now and then, and printing new crap that is same
> old run gets boring after a while.
> FASA's way of dealing with it is to jump ahead five years.

Eh? How did they jump? I've read the sourcebooks, and I've watched the
time pass rather smoothly. How and where did they "jump ahead five years"?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 40
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> What this topic was supposed to be about was the lack of atmosphere
books under Mike's direction.

Just wanted to say a couple of things. Firstly, yes, there has been a
lack of atmosphere books recently. But that's ALL due to SR3, IMO. With
the updated books being released, of COURSE you're going to have less
atmosphere books. But they still got New Seattle out shortly after SR3.
And then there's Corp Download. And before SR3 there was PoaD and
Cyberpirates and the Target books and a whole bunch of others. Just
because there haven't been another NAGtRL or Shadowbeat doesn't mean
there hasn't been atmosphere books. They've just focused on different
things. Anyway, once those two were done, there wasn't really a lot of
"pure atmosphere" stuff to be talked about. And IMO a pure atmosphere
book (i.e. one that talks about the world with absolutely no relation
to running) a) is a stupid idea and b) has not been done before, not
even under Tom Dowd. EVERYTHING has related to running in some way or
another. Even Shadowbeat - that just looked at running for different
reasons.

If you ask me, the best "atmosphere" book ever done for Shadowrun was
Awakenings. A 1/3 or a 1/4 quarter of it was rules, but everything else
was looking at magic in new and EXTREMELY interesting ways. What it's
like to be a mage, how it affects the world etc. Now, I'm a big magic
fan, so maybe it isn't that good for non-magicker players. But it's
still VERY useful and a wonderfully entertaining book (hell, even the
most rabid street sam lover is going to run up against mages and he'll
need to know how to deal with them). Now I might be wrong, but wasn't
MM line developer at that time? :)

> Look at the short stories in SR2 and SR3 for this difference. There
are clear atmosphere changes being inflicted on the game world that are
pretty disturbing to this old-timer. SR3's story is really just a
"we're commiting a crime, we get set-up, we seek payback" situation.
While SR2 used this same structure, it filled out the world with actual
colors and flavors and attitudes. It made the world seem real, it gave
the actions a purpose and double-crosses poigancy. I felt nothing when
the decker in SR3 died. When you find out the girl's parents died
under torture in SR2, that was shocking and disturbing in the way it
was set-up. (And this situation can't be blamed on the author of the
short in SR3 either. Diane Piron-Gelman is a hell of a writer based
off her Shattered Sphere book. It's the shift in SR's focus that's the
problem.)
> -Twist

No it's not. The problem in this particular case was the STYLE of
story. Of COURSE you're going to be sadder when a couple of innocents
get tortured and murdered than when a decker who knows the risks goes
in and gets herself shot. And the death was treated in a very clinical
manner. If the main character isn't particularly disturbed by his
friend's death, why is the reader going to be?

Now aside from that, I don't see that this is the direction SR is
beginning to take. It's just a current trend in the most recent books
and I bet you dollars to donuts it'll change when something else
interesting comes along.

*Doc' thinks there's plenty of atmosphere in SR...which is a good
thing. Otherwise his head would pop whenever he cast a spell...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 41
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:36:06 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 10:33:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> If you ask me, the best "atmosphere" book ever done for Shadowrun was
> Awakenings. A 1/3 or a 1/4 quarter of it was rules, but everything else
> was looking at magic in new and EXTREMELY interesting ways. What it's
> like to be a mage, how it affects the world etc. Now, I'm a big magic
> fan, so maybe it isn't that good for non-magicker players. But it's
> still VERY useful and a wonderfully entertaining book (hell, even the
> most rabid street sam lover is going to run up against mages and he'll
> need to know how to deal with them). Now I might be wrong, but wasn't
> MM line developer at that time? :)


He was, and that was a great book. But Mike has said before in chats that he
doesn't cae much for atmosphere books, and Awakenings was really concerned
with smart applications of magic in the business, not really the day-to-day
life of what it's like to live in Shadowrun. But, again, the 50 Yrs book
looks promising.



-Twist
Message no. 42
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:39:05 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 10:33:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Anyway, once those two were done, there wasn't really a lot of
> "pure atmosphere" stuff to be talked about. And IMO a pure atmosphere
> book (i.e. one that talks about the world with absolutely no relation
> to running) a) is a stupid idea and b) has not been done before, not
> even under Tom Dowd. EVERYTHING has related to running in some way or
> another. Even Shadowbeat - that just looked at running for different
> reasons.


Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the ability to
play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning. (Unless you
consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules, which were sweet.)




-Twist
Message no. 43
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > Anyway, once those two were done, there wasn't really a lot of
"pure atmosphere" stuff to be talked about. And IMO a pure atmosphere
book (i.e. one that talks about the world with absolutely no relation
to running) a) is a stupid idea and b) has not been done before, not
even under Tom Dowd. EVERYTHING has related to running in some way or
another. Even Shadowbeat - that just looked at running for different
reasons.
>
> Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the
ability to play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning.
(Unless you consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules,
which were sweet.)
> -Twist

Oh, c'mon, Twist! That was just the first 10 or 15 pages of the book.
The rest of it including rules for reporters (who, by the nature of
muckraking, are almost certainly going to get involved with
shadowrunners). Yes, there was also a lot that WASN'T directly related
to shadowrunning, but there was a lot that WAS related and all of it
COULD be used for shadowruns.

I do love my urban brawl-playing adept. :)

Anyway, what's so good about that compared to, say, New Seattle or the
Target books? Sure there's more non-runner stuff, but if the point of
the game is to shadowrun, why have it? The fact that they do have some
- actually, quite a lot compared to other games - is pretty bloody good
IMO. Anyway, even if the newer source books ARE more directed towards
runners, there's still a lot in there that helps build the SR world.
Maybe not as much as you'd like, but it seems to me most players are
satisfied. If you really need/want more, talk to FASA about it and/or
get other people who feel the same way to petition with you or
something. Or make it up yourself.

Hell, Twist, why not make it up and submit it to FASA for publishing?

*Doc' thinks rockers are the dumbest thing ever put into a cyberpunk
game, btw...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 44
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:25:29 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 11:23:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Hell, Twist, why not make it up and submit it to FASA for publishing?
>


Because I spend too much time replying to the List? :-)




-Twist
Message no. 45
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:27:56 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/99 11:23:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Anyway, what's so good about that compared to, say, New Seattle or the
> Target books? Sure there's more non-runner stuff, but if the point of
> the game is to shadowrun, why have it?


Because most GMs have to wing the worlds that the shadowrunners pass through
in any given shadowrun. Having a whole sourcebook devoted to life in the
2050-60s would be a great help in conceptualization for the shadowrun players
and planning for the GMs.



-Twist
Message no. 46
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:41:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > If you ask me, the best "atmosphere" book ever done for Shadowrun
was Awakenings. A 1/3 or a 1/4 quarter of it was rules, but everything
else was looking at magic in new and EXTREMELY interesting ways. What
it's like to be a mage, how it affects the world etc. Now, I'm a big
magic fan, so maybe it isn't that good for non-magicker players. But
it's still VERY useful and a wonderfully entertaining book (hell, even
the most rabid street sam lover is going to run up against mages and
he'll need to know how to deal with them). Now I might be wrong, but
wasn't MM line developer at that time? :)
>
> He was, and that was a great book. But Mike has said before in chats
that he doesn't cae much for atmosphere books, and Awakenings was
really concerned with smart applications of magic in the business, not
really the day-to-day life of what it's like to live in Shadowrun.
But, again, the 50 Yrs book looks promising.
> -Twist

Twist, be reasonable. What you're talking about could never and WOULD
never happen in an RPG. At least not in one that in any way resembles
an action/adventure game. A book about the "real life" of the setting
simply WOULD NOT SELL. And thus it wouldn't be published by the corp
who makes the game. As so many people have said, FASA, just like any
other gaming house, is a corp and must act that way if they want to
survive. A day-to-day life book (which neither Shadowbeat nor NAGtRL
were, if you're honest) is not the kind of thing that would sell except
to the most rabid collectors or to GMs who REALLY go into depth with
their games.

Sure, Shadowrun could have more atmosphere, but look at it this way -
it already has a hell of a lot more than most gaming systems. So maybe
it doesn't measure up to your standards, but I'm pretty darn pleased
with it and I'm not alone.

You are NOT WRONG. You are simply not being reasonable in your
expectations. Can you see that?

*Doc' also thinks the Neo-As sucked and he loved it when Captain Chaos
took over the Shadowland duties solely...*

Oops - that was just supposed to be my comment to tweak Twist's nose a
little ( :) ), but I just thought I'd mention this. I think Captain
Chaos is WONDERFUL and, despite that fact that he's a self-professed
Neo-A, he's much better than they ever were. By having him introduce
and coordinate all the books, they give SR a feeling of continuity.
Which is a smart move, in my book.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 47
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:50:44 -0700 (PDT)
> > Hell, Twist, why not make it up and submit it to FASA for
publishing?
>
>
> Because I spend too much time replying to the List? :-)
> -Twist

*Doc' grins. "Let's make it easier on the poor boy. Twist, GO AWAY."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 48
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
> > Anyway, what's so good about that compared to, say, New Seattle or
the Target books? Sure there's more non-runner stuff, but if the point
of the game is to shadowrun, why have it?
>
> Because most GMs have to wing the worlds that the shadowrunners pass
through in any given shadowrun. Having a whole sourcebook devoted to
life in the 2050-60s would be a great help in conceptualization for the
shadowrun players and planning for the GMs.
> -Twist

That's a good point - but it ain't gonna happen unless you write it and
get it published.

Like Steve said, go for it, Twist. I for one would actually love such a
book - but I don't expect it to happen. I also don't think it's a
reasonable thing to demand of FASA, which is why I'm not doing so.

*Doc' gives Twist three months on the project before he goes stark,
raving mad. Any takers?*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 49
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:26:04 -0500
> > Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the
> ability to play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning.
> (Unless you consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules,
> which were sweet.)
> > -Twist
>
> Oh, c'mon, Twist! That was just the first 10 or 15 pages of the book.

Give it up, Doc'. You're never gonna convince him because he doesn't want
to be convinced. We're running in circles with this, and it's getting
tired.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 50
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:29:54 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Sunday, August 15, 1999 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: SR Narrowing of focus


>> >Straw poll time here.
>> >
>> >Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down
>> >to criminals only?
>>
>> Umm, ok, maybe I missed something here, but... The only "Non
Criminal"
>> SR characters, when you want to get right down to it, came under
Mike's
>> command: Playing Doc Wagon from the Companion and Missions. Other
than
>> that, everything else is pretty much justa different type of
>> Shadowrunner, which, when you break it down, is nothing but a
Criminal
>> at his core. A Shadowrunner is a mercenary who breaks the law for
money.
>
><major snip>
>
><2-Step stands up and applauds Bull> Man, you got it in one. If I
might be
>allowed to quote from the original Big Blue Book, where it gives the
>definition of "shadowrun" <rummages around finding BBB>:
>
>"SHADOWRUN n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in
carrying
>outplans which are illegal or quasilegal." -- WorldWide WordWatch,
2050
>update
>
>That's on page 8 of the BBB (the original one).
>
>The focus has *always* been on criminals. I don't understand what
most of
>you are griping about, since if anything it's a return to the
*original*
>focus.


The question being, what does the group do when crime just isn't fun
anymore? you have all the toys, you have all the skills, you have all
the spells, and regardless of what the GM throws at you at the street
level, it's no longer a challenge, no longer exciting. Like when
insect shamans get boring. When the Mafia owes YOU favors. When you
can command the big bucks per run just because you can? Even if you
retire your characters and start all over again, you're still stuck at
the street-criminal level. What's next?

As much as I'd hate to bring up AD&D, I think they had something of a
good idea there: there comes a time when you outgrow your foes, you've
realized your goals, but something still beckons to you. I don't have
a problem with the street-level focus myself, but where do we go
beyond that?

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"
Message no. 51
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:40:06 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Twist0059@***.com."
] Because most GMs have to wing the worlds that the shadowrunners pass
through
] in any given shadowrun. Having a whole sourcebook devoted to life in the
] 2050-60s would be a great help in conceptualization for the shadowrun
players
] and planning for the GMs.

Unfortunately, as others have said, it wouldn't sell. That being
said, there's nothing to prevent authors putting the odd "atmospheric"
bit into their rules, place, or situations book. They do it all the
time, as a matter of fact. I agree that it's difficult to form an
entire picture of What Life's Like in the SR world, but have you ever
thought that maybe that's a good thing? Consider: if they nailed down
every social more, every custom, every piece of tech, every trid
broadcast, then there wouldn't be any way for a GM (or writer) to alter
the game universe. Some folks like a darker game, where the corps rule
with an iron hand, others like a heavily magical game. _Not_ defining
everything that makes up the SR world gives GMs some latitude in
detailing their campaign, and that's a good thing, to me at least.
I used to be of the school that thought that if it wasn't written
down, it shouldn't be invented, i.e. if there's not a book on Saudi
Arabia, don't send your runners to Saudi Arabia, because it won't be
canon, and therefore won't be good (aw hell, I'm still mostly of that
school, but I'm trying to change, really I am). Now I think it's okay
to mess with some things. I'm using some House Rules (gasp!), and
describing bits of "atmosphere" that I think might exist in the SR
world (even if they ain't written down in a sourcebook).
It all comes down to how creative you want to be. I really don't
need (or want) FASA to hold my hand throughout my playing career,
telling me exactly how everything shall be. Granted, sometimes I could
use some guidance, and I get that, when possible, from bits and pieces
that authors have tossed into their work. If there's nothing to tell
me about the price of chickens in 2060, well, I make a guess. I'm not
always happy doing that, but I'm not going to wait for FASA to come out
with Target: Livestock :)
Boy, I tend to ramble on. I hope you got what I was saying: you have
a darn good point, but I feel if you looked at it a different way, you
might find things aren't so bad after all.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 52
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:42:01 -0400
>"pure atmosphere" stuff to be talked about. And IMO a pure atmosphere
>book (i.e. one that talks about the world with absolutely no relation
>to running) a) is a stupid idea and b) has not been done before, not
>even under Tom Dowd. EVERYTHING has related to running in some way or
>another. Even Shadowbeat - that just looked at running for different
>reasons.


Well, under the old format, I believe everything was a legal or
quasi-legal product that was obtained through less-than-legal means
then twisted to be of use to shadowrunners, like the NAGRL. I liked
NAGRL; it fianlly gave me an larger idea of what was out there, now to
hob-nob with the snobs, how to run better, and how to role-play
better. If anything, it emphasized the nature of what it was
shadowrunners were doing by taking a line and putting right between
"our world" and "their world."

>If you ask me, the best "atmosphere" book ever done for Shadowrun was
>Awakenings. A 1/3 or a 1/4 quarter of it was rules, but everything
else
>was looking at magic in new and EXTREMELY interesting ways. What it's
>like to be a mage, how it affects the world etc. Now, I'm a big magic
>fan, so maybe it isn't that good for non-magicker players. But it's
>still VERY useful and a wonderfully entertaining book (hell, even the
>most rabid street sam lover is going to run up against mages and
he'll
>need to know how to deal with them). Now I might be wrong, but wasn't
>MM line developer at that time? :)


Yeah, I liked Awakenings, too, but wasn't Awakenings originally a
NERPS thing? No, to me, the best post-SR1 atmosphere book was
Cybertechnology, not because it presented cyberzombies or new ways to
burn Essence, but because it looked at cyberware in new ways. When
even a pro like Hachetman feels uncomfortable about new 'ware, how
comfortable should the PC be when considering his options? The wired
reflexes and cyberlimb sections (as short as they were) were nice for
role-playing as well. The tapped phone call gave me a better sense of
what was "out there" as far as magical societies were concerned, and
lent out more mystery to the SR world.

Ah well, give it some time, I say. Or at least demand that FASA
reprint those OOP books.

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"
Message no. 53
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:08:47 -0600
At 00:42 8/16/99 -0400, Angelkiller 404 wrote:

>Yeah, I liked Awakenings, too, but wasn't Awakenings originally a
>NERPS thing?

No.

It was written by Steve Kenson, and parts of it were published in Scrawls
from the Sprawls (The Shadowrun APA), before the actual book was published.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
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< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
Message no. 54
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
> It was written by Steve Kenson, and parts of it were published in
Scrawls from the Sprawls (The Shadowrun APA), before the actual book
was published.
> Adam

Speaking o' which, anyone know where Scrawls can be found these days?
Last I heard it was going on-line, but the old DLOH-type-dude
apparently forgot to tell the new DLOH-type-dude to get in touch with me.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 55
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:00:04 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: SR Narrowing of focus


>> It was written by Steve Kenson, and parts of it were published in
>Scrawls from the Sprawls (The Shadowrun APA), before the actual book
>was published.
>> Adam
>
>Speaking o' which, anyone know where Scrawls can be found these days?
>Last I heard it was going on-line, but the old DLOH-type-dude
>apparently forgot to tell the new DLOH-type-dude to get in touch with
me.


Um, what's an APA?

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"
Message no. 56
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:09:40 -0400
Once upon a time, Twist0059@***.com wrote;

>Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the ability to
>play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning. (Unless you
>consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules, which were sweet.)

Funny you should say that. I used that information to run my Trideo
Free Charlotte pirate station. Of course that involved some shadowrunning
even by a definition I accept...

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 57
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:15:41 -0400
Once upon a time, Angelkiller 404 wrote;

>Um, what's an APA?

Amateur Press Alliance

-MC23, who was a former member of Clobberin' Times*-






*Champions APA and the first place I used the name MC23
Message no. 58
From: Peter Mikulsky PeterMikulsky@********.de
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:27:57 +0200
Scott W wrote:

> Unfortunately, as others have said, it wouldn't sell. That being
> said, there's nothing to prevent authors putting the odd "atmospheric"
> bit into their rules, place, or situations book.
<snip>

I have to agree with you. We are five peolpe in the group here. Three of us
are GM's with their own campaign (two in Seattle one in Germany) and all are
different in the atmosphere. I think it's better to use my own sight of the
SR universe than a from a corp dictated one. From my opinion it's lot of
more fun.
Thats my two cent.

Peter Mikulsky
Message no. 59
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:52:25 +0200
> I disagree there. I'm in an SR3 campaign now and most of the characters
(to
> my knowledge) are not amoral thugs. For example, I'm playing a merc
> character. He has ethics: he won't do wetwork,, hurt folks unneccesarily
> (sp), etc. However, he is also new to "indie work" (as he puts it).
> However, he is now a runner for the money (he sends a lot home to his
mom).
> So my character is basically a person who is willing to commit crimes for
> money to support his mother, but there are limits to what he will do.
>
> Also, the campaign is different as well. We were all hired to help find
out
> what happened to an archeological (sp) dig. I think that there is a
variety
> of runs, you just have to come up with ideas.

I think it's all up to the players and the GM. If you get bored of the
typical "get hired, buy goodies, kill
several people, steal something, get out, get screwed; repeat as desired"
(Thanks IronRaven), then play something else. If you don't get bored with
it, your probably enjoying it, so don't change it.

I myself don't like to do anything twice, and I think Shadowrun is one of
the games that offers you an incredible amount of background information,
especially because it's an evolving world with a timeline (like someone
mentioned before). If you don't like something, or if something screws with
your plans, then you shouldn't use it in your game, or perhaps you can use
it later.

Bottom line is that I think Shadowrun lends itself beautifully for a variety
of adventures. There are limitless ways you can travel through the SR
Universe,...and if someone is out of ideas then he or she can drop me a line
and I'll help them out, cause I am full of ideas.

Dennis


"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 60
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:33:53 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 10:06:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

> > I was NOT aware the focus was being narrowed in the way you are
> > suggesting...in fact, I have a fair amount of proof that "that" is
simply
>
> > not
> > the case.
> >
> > -K
>
>
> Examples?

They've already been given actually, and you've even remarked upon it. Your
choice of words is, I am being revelized to discovered, incredibly inept at
times and lacking in others (worse than mine own).

-K
Message no. 61
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:49:23 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 2:04:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

> >The focus has *always* been on criminals. I don't understand what most of
> >you are griping about, since if anything it's a return to the *original*
>
> Easy- you can restart with new characters all you want, but if the runs
> are the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, people get
> bored with the game.

THAT, is not the fault of FASA and most people should be able to see that
fact. That is the, IMO, the limited imaginations of the GM(s) of the game
group as well as the dolldrumic mentalities of the less-than-average
player(s).

> "Not another batch of bugs, we've killed them by the thousands!"
> "It's another snatch-and-grab. Yawn."

Actually, here's a twisted thought. We *are* replaying one of the crazier
timelines in our games. The "Giant Worms in Astral Space" concept has been
done before in our games during a time when the players were into a more
"confrontational/combative" mode of play. Now its' being done, and the
players are going in the direction of "Hunter - Seeker" mode, with heavy
bents on intervention and pre-emptive action.

Our bug games became the same way back when as well. Actually, until
yesterday, "the Bugs" haven't even been mentioned in the games here in over a
year.

> A lot of this about bad roleplaying, but GMs aren't a limitless pool of
> ideas. While we all specialize in a certain kind of op, it helps to have
> fresh materials every now and then, and printing new crap that is same old
> run gets boring after a while.

Hold it right there IR. the GM(s) involved may or may not be a limitless
source of inspirations, but if its' up to ONLY the GM(s), then the group is
truly doomed at some point in time. Here's an idea that Mike B. occasionally
does here. Every so often, he takes a player-poll with the question .. "what
kind of stuff would you like to do for a bit?" The group gives what opinions
it may have at the time, and we (Mike and I) try and integrate into the
general storyline that we have moving at the time.

RPGs are supposed to be interactive. Let them be so.

> FASA's way of dealing with it is to jump ahead five years. While that is
> OK, it screws with the histories that GMs might have developed. (ie, The
> CFS retakes San Diego, but the last Azzie Colonel to leave the city pulled
> the pin on a nuke.) I also disagree with it because it forces people to
> upgrade and buy the novels to find out what the hell is being talked about
> in sourcebooks. (The first time I read a reference to Dunk's death, it
> shocked the hell out of me, almost as much as him having been elected.)
> I like then mid-50's, and am advancing at my own rate, but I get sick of
> FASA saying that if you want to be able to use the new materials without
> extensive editing of the books and having to look over everyone's houlders
> during character creation to make sure they don't grab somehting that isn't
> availalable yet. I don't know about anyone else, but think forcing
> time-line acceleration on players and GMs alienates people to varying
> degrees.

First of all, you are incredibly over-generalizing. If you want to get a
clearer view of what is going on, start looking into the details of the
bigger picture.

And, I don't really know where you've gotten the idea that you have to
rewrite stuff in order to incorporate it. We haven't done *those* kinds of
rewrites in ages here, so I can say with some amount of experience and
certainty, that it IS possible to have a game continue with or without the
help of FASA. FASA gives us the basic storylines and basic inspirations.
But ultimately, it remains in the hands of the GM(s) and Player(s) what is
going to go down in their game universe.

Hell, we've reverse-engineered whole timelines for the sake of fun and trying
something different with the same characters ... or even changed characters
just to try out the same thing, but from a different POV.

-K (who wonders if perhaps this is one of the "debating cycles" the list
goes into once in a while)
Message no. 62
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:10:04 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
>No, Shadowbeat was not a situation book. Shutdown and BitB offered
>definite
>activities that the runners can get involved in. They are adventures in a
>free-form style of presentation, so they were situation books for lack of a
>better term. Shadowbeat was all atmosphere with some alternate-campaign
>rules.

I think you're getting bogged down in semantics Twist. RA:S had a LOT of
atmosphere IMO. Sure RA:S and BitB provided adventure ideas as well, but
that doesn't mean they can't supply atmosphere, does it??

>-Twist

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 63
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:37:04 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 11:49:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

> <2-Step stands up and applauds Bull> Man, you got it in one. If I might be
> allowed to quote from the original Big Blue Book, where it gives the
> definition of "shadowrun" <rummages around finding BBB>:
>
> "SHADOWRUN n. Any movement, action, or series of such made in carrying
> outplans which are illegal or quasilegal." -- WorldWide WordWatch, 2050
> update
>
> That's on page 8 of the BBB (the original one).
>
> The focus has *always* been on criminals. I don't understand what most of
> you are griping about, since if anything it's a return to the *original*
> focus.

YES!!! Thank You Patrick...all my original BBB's are either destroyed (fire
for one, worse for another) or borrowed so I wouldn't have been able to
relocate this.

This is exactly the proof at its' very core.

-K
Message no. 64
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:52:36 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 2:25:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
arcady@***.net writes:

> > we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you
> > call RA:S? A rule book?
>
> Actually it looked like a Shadowrun version of that dungeon that's in the
> middle of Waterdeep in AD&D.
> Personally all I've used it for is to set up scenes where the players see
a
> Lone Star cop and a UCAS soldier on opposite sides of a street glaring each
> other down with that "I don't like having you on my turf" look.

BUT, that means you have incorporated it to some extent. Look at it for what
it is. It's background. MOST player-groups will NEVER have the ability to
go into it. Some player groups on the flipside will have the ability to go
in and do some major damage before they die. And still more groups will have
the ability to look the RA:S concept straight in the face and say "..there's
not enough beer in the world..."

Even if you never use what is inside the Arc itself, you HAVE included just
enough to make people wonder and add a bit of alternate flavor.

-K (one tiny step ... )
Message no. 65
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:10:27 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 9:40:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
>
> Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the ability to
> play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning. (Unless you
> consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules, which were
sweet.)
>

And already there...

-K (Behold, the Dataline Tap)
Message no. 66
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:19:34 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 11:10:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> *Doc' gives Twist three months on the project before he goes stark,
> raving mad. Any takers?*

<K accepts the bet...> "10 KARMA!!"

-K (who thinks he'd faulter within 3 weeks, let alone 3 months)
Message no. 67
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:15:34 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 10:28:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Twist0059@***.com writes:

>
> Because I spend too much time replying to the List? :-)

No, because you spend too much time commenting without detail to the list.

-K
Message no. 68
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:25:25 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 11:42:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> I'm not
> always happy doing that, but I'm not going to wait for FASA to come out
> with Target: Livestock :)

Okay, I wanna know...would that Grade A, Double A, or Triple A calibre
stuff...and would it have genetically fed things going on, because damn it, I
WANT GENETICS!!!

-K ;-)
Message no. 69
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:07:55 -0500
> > concentrate on atmosphere. He thinks SR should be very focused on the
> > business of shadowrunning only (but the BOO and 50 Years of the
> Awakening
> > books look promising). I think he is wrong in this criminal-only
> viewpoint,
> > but a lot of other people seem happy with it. His biggest crime was
> killing
> > the Neo-As in favor of the Target books, IMHO. "Target" is soulless
and
>
> Straw poll time here.
>
> Is anyone out there satisfied with the narrowing of focus down to
> criminals
> only?
>
Yes. I think SR should concentrate on criminals, but not neglect the other
elements that exist in SR.
Message no. 70
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:09:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 9:14:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

>
> Eh? How did they jump? I've read the sourcebooks, and I've watched the
> time pass rather smoothly. How and where did they "jump ahead five
years"?
>

There actually is a 18 month or more leap at one point made rather recently...

-K
Message no. 71
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:23:56 -0400
Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/15/99 3:14:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> thatpaolo@****.com writes:
>
> > Don't forget that the focus now is on releasing the set of beginners and
> > advanced rules for 3rd edition. Once this will be done (CC, M&M, Matrix,
> RR)
> > we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you call RA:S?
> A
> > rule book? And later this year there will be Year of The Comet and related
> > products, next year Survival of The Fittest and related products....
> >
> > --Paolo
>
> Those aren't really atmosphere books, they are situation books and straight
> adventures. Atmosphere literally gives you the atmosphere of the SR
> universe, not direct job ops.
> The look-back on the Awakening will probably be the only atmosphere book, and
> I'm looking forward to it myself.
>
> -Twist

If one looks at the BBB3 and compares it to BBB2, there isn't really a change
in the amount of atmosphere. Sure, the story in each is different, and the 2nd
edition one has more of an atmosphere, but the 3rd edition's "And so it came to
pass" section has a TON more atmosphere than the 2nd edition. First of all, it is
written by Captain Chaos, Mr. Neo-A himself. It gives the reader a perspective on
the events, rather than just "on October 12, 2012, such and such happened." It
gives the how and why.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 72
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:24:10 EDT
In a message dated 8/15/1999 11:31:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.net writes:

> > Oh, c'mon, Twist! That was just the first 10 or 15 pages of the book.
>
> Give it up, Doc'. You're never gonna convince him because he doesn't want
> to be convinced. We're running in circles with this, and it's getting
> tired.

Na, we're just tired, I have a feeling he's just getting started...

-K
Message no. 73
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:08:59 -0500
> This has veered slightly off topic. Let me explain: When I said Mike was
>
> concentrating down on the criminal aspect of Shadowrun, I never meant that
>
> the game should be a bunch of alternate campaigns. I loathe alternate
> campaigns. Shadowrun is always the best to me when it's about
> shadowrunning.
>
> What this topic was supposed to be about was the lack of atmosphere books
> under Mike's direction. Shadowrun was always about shadowrunning (okay,
> Shadowbeat aside, at least part of it) but before we had a broad view of
> the
> shadowrun world and what social system we were working under. Shadowrun
> was
> fleshed out as a real living and breathing world that our characters just
> operated in, not dominated the spotlight of. The problem with the current
>
> books is the "runner-centric" attitude they have. Everything is about the
>
> business of shadowrunning, how to pull of better shadowruns, which place
> is
> ripe for a shadowrun, ect. And that narrow perspective results in less
> satisfying roleplaying experiences. Sure, GMs from before the new system
> can
> do whatever they want and keep the old flavor alive, but what about the
> new
> players SR3 was supposed to bring in? And for the vet GMs the lack of new
>
> sourcebook material fleshing out the world of Shadowrun other than the
> business of shadowrunning makes their jobs all the more difficult.
>
> If Shadowrun was just a game about stealing stuff or killing people
> without
> reasons, it wouldn't be interesting at all. It might as well be a GURPS
> system.
>
Or, more correctly, AD&D. Replace corporations with evil wizards and
corporate security with dungeon and you have a good approximation. Not that
AD&D lacks all roleplaying interaction, but it is certainly not stressed.
This seems to be the case with SR3 as well.

> The mechanics are important, and the business of shadowrunning is
> central, **but it's the whole reason behind shadowrunning that is being
> lost
> on the youngsters and not supported under the new line**. Look at the
> short stories in SR2 and SR3 for this difference. There are clear
> atmosphere changes being inflicted on the game world that are pretty
> disturbing to this old-timer. SR3's story is really just a "we're
> commiting
> a crime, we get set-up, we seek payback" situation. While SR2 used this
> same
> structure, it filled out the world with actual colors and flavors and
> attitudes. It made the world seem real, it gave the actions a purpose and
>
> double-crosses poigancy. I felt nothing when the decker in SR3 died.
> When
> you find out the girl's parents died under torture in SR2, that was
> shocking
> and disturbing in the way it was set-up. (And this situation can't be
> blamed
> on the author of the short in SR3 either. Diane Piron-Gelman is a hell of
> a
> writer based off her Shattered Sphere book. It's the shift in SR's focus
> that's the problem.)
>
Couldn't agree more. SR2's story was interesting and inspired me to run a
better game every time I read it. SR3's story was a very nice description of
combat.

> The example that came up during my and Mike M.'s debate was Shadowland.
> Shadowland only exists because of Neo-Anarchists. And yet
> Neo-Ananarchists
> don't seem to exist in SR3. And then what purpose does Shadowland serve?
>
> When I asked Mike this, he said it was to help shadowrunners, to get them
> info the corps don't want them to have, to help them pull of their various
>
> shadowruns. And then I asked why, why would CaptainChaos even care
> whether
> or not some shadowrunners pull off a run or the corps keep their
> top-secrets
> top secret?
>
Yet, not all of the Neo-A has been stripped out. Captain Chaos's name for
instance. In the context of Neo-A's it makes sense. As the support network
for Shadowrunners, it doesn't.

> The only reason I could think of for this is that shadowrunners are the
> wild
> cards of the Shadowrun universe. They are the only ones who have a chance
> of
> making a difference in an endlessly corrupt world and have a chance to put
> a
> few things right.
>
Yet this isn't stressed either. In fact, most books tend to state, over and
over, that the corps aren't the bad guys. They are simply jobs. The attitude
of being the only hope for a dying and dystopian future isn't there.

> And with my opinion of this, Mike agreed completely. But the sourcebook
> material that helps new players understand the situation and reinforces
> the
> older player's own worlds isn't being put out there. Shadowrun is now
> just a
> game of crimes and how to commit better ones. Stuff like the Neo-A
> screed
> in NAGNA and Shadowbeat and Shadowfiles and the Neo-A Guide to Real Life
> and
> the science in Shadowtech and the ideals in the merc section of Fields of
> Fire presented a dynamic of a world that we currently lack. All those
> were
> groundings in reality which provided meaning to the game through letting
> us
> understand just what condition our players were operating under. They
> weren't just about the business of shadowrunning, but they applied to it
> as a
> focus on background.
>
> Of course, SR3 has brought a lot of new players to the game, so maybe
> people
> prefer this different approach. I tend to think SR3 has brought in new
> people because it looks crisper and has the actual rules necessary to play
>
> the game rather than the out-dated SR2, but that's just IMHO.
>
>
>
> -Twist
Message no. 74
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:04:23 -0500
> > I get sick of
> > FASA saying that if you want to be able to use the new materials without
> > extensive editing of the books and having to look over everyone's
> houlders
> > during character creation to make sure they don't grab somehting
> > that isn't
> > availalable yet. I don't know about anyone else, but think forcing
> > time-line acceleration on players and GMs alienates people to
> > varying degrees.
> > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
>
> Ok, no one forces you to follow FASA's timeline. You don't like it, you
> scrap it. But the big thing in Shadowrun is that it's not a fixed world
> <cough>Cyberpunk 2020</cough> and it evolves.
>
Beg to differ, but CPunk was throwing out some changes in their world at the
tail end of 2020. There was that whole corp war thing. Granted, it was
probably too little too late, but it was there.

Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place in
Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came out. It was
fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it was fun.
Message no. 75
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:40:06 -0400
>I think you're getting bogged down in semantics Twist. RA:S had a LOT of
>atmosphere IMO. Sure RA:S and BitB provided adventure ideas as well, but
>that doesn't mean they can't supply atmosphere, does it??

The best decking atmoshpere I have ever seen in SR game material is in RA:S
The whole scene where Dodger, Fastjack, et. al. fight off the angels is the
best written example of what cyberspace combat should feel like I have ever
seen.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"God is my co-pilot, but the Devil is my bombardier."
Message no. 76
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:00:16 -0700
Tinner said:

> The best decking atmoshpere I have ever seen in SR game material is in RA:S
> The whole scene where Dodger, Fastjack, et. al. fight off the angels is the
> best written example of what cyberspace combat should feel like I have ever
> seen.

YES! Agreed. HIGHLY. Another great example:The very FACT that there are *troops
in the streets*. For those who have no CLUE how to RP this:
1. Those troops are COMBAT troops. Full gear. ARMED. Every so often there are
maybe TANKS, maybe simple APCs.
2.To put it bluntly, it should scare ANYONE *shitless* (Gridsec, apologies for
the language. Best way to express this.). The UCAS is supposed to be a
democracy. This would mark maybe the FIRST time outside of WAR that a democracy
has active combat troops in its own STREETS. It should make *everybody* scared.

3.Quite simply: The sound of combat choppers. The sound of tanks....Make
players wonder: what EXACTLY is this country turning into?

It remains to be seen what happens....anybody here remember that thread on
possible changes to Corp Extraterritoriality? FASA, I hope you're listening....

John
Message no. 77
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:29:27 -0500
> > If Shadowrun was just a game about stealing stuff or killing people
> > without reasons, it wouldn't be interesting at all. It might as well
> > be a GURPS system.
>
> Or, more correctly, AD&D. Replace corporations with evil wizards and
> corporate security with dungeon and you have a good approximation.

Where the hell did *that* bit of misinformation come from? I've been
playing D&D and/or AD&D for 23 years or so, and I've never seen it played
like you seem to imply.

> Not that AD&D lacks all roleplaying interaction, but it is certainly
> not stressed. This seems to be the case with SR3 as well.

Stress on role-playing is the responsibility of the GM and the players, not
the game system. IMHO.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 78
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:50:48 -0400
At 13.26 08-15-99 CST, you wrote:
>sense of honour. Runners may be criminals, but thgat doesn't mean that they
>have to be thugs.

While that is true, the "feel", at least to a number of us, is that the
book is pushing for the amoral, kill-thier-own-mothers-for-10K¥ type of
characters. There is nothing in the rescent books that I've seen that
shows nobility and honor (other than the seriously hacked up version of
bushido that street scams use), or room for heros, or anything like that.
Instead, it is pushing more towards everyone being hired by multinational
corps, corporate nations and a handful of mega-trillionares hiring runners
to do stuff that thier own folks can't get caught doing, and most of that
being thug work that any moron with a few thousand worth of cyber and a big
gun can do.




Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 79
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:50:56 -0400
At 12.13 08-15-99 -0700, you wrote:
>scrap it. But the big thing in Shadowrun is that it's not a fixed world
><cough>Cyberpunk 2020</cough> and it evolves. Clearly, given that's not
the

I like evolution as much as the next guy, but explain to me why outside of
FASA most games don't stop supporting thier older time frames?
AD&D doesn't, and it is still one of the most popular games on the market.
Star Wars didn't, and most of the stores I've delt with had a hard time
keeping so much as core book in stock until WEG was run into the round.
White Wolf is fairly time stable, and is fairly friendly to those who wish
to use a setting that is prior to the latest and greatest upgrade.
RuneQuest didn't even bother to figure in times, and it survived until
mismanagement killed it. Traveller is fairly time stable. GURPS and Rifts
have to face built in munchkinization with each source book, but that is
it. (CP is hurt by sucky mechanics, that is all.)

Only FASA abandons older timeframes (from what I've seen). A great
example of this is BattleTech/MechWarrior- I hate the Clans. I think they
are a great idea, but one that could have been handled better. If you want
to play in the 3025 era, forget it. Everything is written from the 3060
era now. My conmplaint with that is that technology has just jumped too fast.
This is one of my my complaints with Shadowrun. Technology has moved too
fast. Add that to the other percieved problems that I've mentioned, and it
almost isn't even worth it to buy new location books. I want to know what
is happening in Australia (a land I personally know slightly more than
didly about), for example, without having to edit out a lot of stuff that
there is no way my players are going to touch it, or even know about. If,
when it becomes available, if 90% of it is post-2055, I'm putting it back
on the shelf, I don't care how well written it is.

>Don't forget that the focus now is on releasing the set of beginners and
>advanced rules for 3rd edition. Once this will be done (CC, M&M, Matrix, RR)

OK, here's a question for everyone:
Was SR3 needed, or could have a revised and expanded version of SR2 been
sufficent?
Seriously, of the stuff that was broken in SR2, what was fixed in SR3?
Vehilces? There was nothing wrong with that. Character creation? Worked
fine. Combat? I've yet to see a game handle it real well, but thier rules
for the most part were good enough for most people. Matrix? It worked.
Magic? It was screwed up in SR2 and from what I've read ofthem, they still
screwed up, but in different ways, in SR3.

>we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you call RA:S? A

At the total abandonment of older time settings.

>rule book? And later this year there will be Year of The Comet and related
>products, next year Survival of The Fittest and related products....

I'll comment on those being setting when they make it to the market. I'll
I've seen so far is a lot of hype that sounds like adventures and
situations that are played once, and then they are history with books on
the way to the second-hand rack as trade ins. When I say settings, I'm
talking things like the CFS, London and Atzlan books that actually talk
about a place, not a very specific (less than a year) time in that place,
or groups (like Lone Star), that I can use for reference over a couple of
years of game time.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 80
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:54:11 -0400
> Eh? How did they jump? I've read the sourcebooks, and I've watched the

That is X numberof sourcebooks costing around $18 a pop? I don't have
that kind of cash. That is why they should have published a five-year
(game time) update when they released SR3. If they had done that, I would
not have said that the timeline jumped.
Remember, that a lot of us can not comfortably buy every product for every
game we play. Core rules, a few stuff books, some location SBs, and that
is it. I don't want to be forced to buy a new set of core rules every few
years to use the new books because they have made the older rules
effectively obsolete, along with most of the stats and mechnaics in the
accessory books. I can't see very many people who are able to constantly
be able to upgrade thier libraries like that, not for RPGs with a target
audience of around 16 years old. If I have to do that, I sure as hell
can't buy every SB that goes out.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 81
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:37:41 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 6:42:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

> The best decking atmoshpere I have ever seen in SR game material is in RA:S
> The whole scene where Dodger, Fastjack, et. al. fight off the angels is the
> best written example of what cyberspace combat should feel like I have ever
> seen.
>
Yeah, it was cool, but hard to say since it was just "written" :-)
Message no. 82
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:52:52 -0700 (PDT)
> I like evolution as much as the next guy, but explain to me why
outside of FASA most games don't stop supporting thier older time
frames?

Because only FASA provides "time-critical" games. Once certain events
have taken place, especially in Shadowrun, it makes older stuff
redundant. The essence of Shadowrun is secrets - and once the cat's out
of the bag, there's little or no point continuing the older stuff.

> AD&D doesn't, and it is still one of the most popular games on the
market. Star Wars didn't, and most of the stores I've delt with had a
hard time keeping so much as core book in stock until WEG was run into
the round.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> Tengu

Bad examples, Kevin. With both AD&D and Star Wars, the "older events"
take place centuries, if not millenia, prior to current events. Over
that long a time frame, events in the older setting aren't likely to
change anything in the newer one. In, what, 10 years(?), that's about
as far as Shadowrun has aged. They CAN'T continue to support 2050
games, because if they did and any discrepancies cropped up, it could
possibly be disastrous (for the setting at least). Over such a short
period of time, something happening in an older setting can SEVERELY
effect the new one. Hell, you've seen how much difficulty all the ED
links to SR have caused (turning SR into a pulp Cthulu-type setting for
a period) and those things happened thousands of years before SR.

It's not feasible to do that in the SR setting.

I can't comment on your other examples, because I don't know the games
well, but consider this. MANY of them are not selling well. SR is. So
should FASA really go in the same direction as they took?

Oh, and you mentioned that a number of them are very "time-stable". No
offense, but HOW ON EARTH is that a good thing??? Probably the most
remarkable and interesting thing about SR is that it IS a developing
world. Same with BattleTech. Time doesn't stand still, nor should it.

*Doc' looks thoughtfully at what he just typed. "Was that a rant? It
looks kinda like a rant to me. Ummm...I'm not sure though...ah, what
the hell."

</rant>*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 83
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:11:26 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 11:48:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> >
> > Examples?
>
> They've already been given actually, and you've even remarked upon it.
Your
>
> choice of words is, I am being revelized to discovered, incredibly inept
at
> times and lacking in others (worse than mine own).
>
> -K
>


Revelized??



-Twist
Message no. 84
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:27:34 -0700 (PDT)
> Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place
in Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came out.
It was fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it was
fun.
<Mark Fender>

Mark, there's nothing wrong with that - for a campaign. But it sure
isn't a good idea for a game system.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 85
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:32:37 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 2:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> >
> > Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the ability
> to
> > play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning. (Unless you
> > consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules, which were
> sweet.)
> >
>
> And already there...
>
> -K (Behold, the Dataline Tap)


Well, the Shadowbeat rules went a tad farther than the dataline tap, you know.




-Twist
Message no. 86
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:36:52 -0400
At 17.52 08-16-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Bad examples, Kevin. With both AD&D and Star Wars, the "older events"

Not in SW. If you are playing in the New Republic (post Endor, set
duringthe novels), then "classic" SW (ANH, ESB, ROTJ) are historical.

>period of time, something happening in an older setting can SEVERELY
>effect the new one. Hell, you've seen how much difficulty all the ED

Hell, no need for anything new, except for the setting books (and that
just means some more detail on the events of the past ten years), but
occasionally reprinting older stuff (ie: the infamous Universal Brotherhood
module) might be nice, and it would sell.

>*Doc' looks thoughtfully at what he just typed. "Was that a rant? It

No big deal. You gave me some points to think about.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 87
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:06:06 -0700 (PDT)
> >Bad examples, Kevin. With both AD&D and Star Wars, the "older
events"
>
> Not in SW. If you are playing in the New Republic (post Endor, set
duringthe novels), then "classic" SW (ANH, ESB, ROTJ) are historical.

Okay, good point. But SW is a big enough universe to absorb changes. SR
definitely is not. A planet being destroyed in SW is no big deal
(unless you destroy Coruscant or Tatooine :) ). A (comparitively)
simple nuclear bomb in SR, however, would have ENORMOUS impact on the
game world - and if you ever blew up Earth or even one of the other
planets - well, it's a big deal.

> >period of time, something happening in an older
> setting can SEVERELY
> >effect the new one. Hell, you've seen how much
> difficulty all the ED
>
> Hell, no need for anything new, except for the setting books (and
that just means some more detail on the events of the past ten years),
but occasionally reprinting older stuff (ie: the infamous Universal
Brotherhood module) might be nice, and it would sell.

Yes, it would. At first. And I'd love to see that one back in print.
But FASA cannot live on bread (or setting books) alone. And neither can
the game. As I've said before, I think you'll find that one of the
greatest attractions to SR for most people (after they initially become
involved with it because it's just SO cool) is that it's a living,
breathing world. Very few game systems can make that claim.

> >*Doc' looks thoughtfully at what he just typed.
> "Was that a rant? It
>
> No big deal. You gave me some points to think
> about.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> Tengu

*Doc' grins evilly. "Oh, I wasn't apologising. I NEVER apologise..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 88
From: Angel Ramos T. angelramos@*****.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:16:23 -0400
Mark wrote:
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 6:04 PM
To: 'shadowrn@*********.org'
> Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place in
> Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came
> out. It was
> fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it was fun.

My gaming group is actually playing within the official timeline but a few
years back (actually Nov 2056). Our GM decided that some of the events will
be fun to play and we are following our own pace so I believe that if you do
not like some of the thing that are published do not use them and if you do
please have fun.

Angel "Of Death" Ramos AKA the Elven Mage
Message no. 89
From: Tamino tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:37:18 +1000
At 06:40 16/08/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>I think you're getting bogged down in semantics Twist. RA:S had a LOT of
>>atmosphere IMO. Sure RA:S and BitB provided adventure ideas as well, but
>>that doesn't mean they can't supply atmosphere, does it??
>
>The best decking atmoshpere I have ever seen in SR game material is in RA:S
>The whole scene where Dodger, Fastjack, et. al. fight off the angels is the
>best written example of what cyberspace combat should feel like I have ever
>seen.


Hahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! *sounds of hysterical laughter
followed by Tam falling off his chair*

I shouldn't laugh, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but
frankly I felt that that particular scene was one of the worst in the
whole module. It was grossly overdone, and all that name dropping was
making me quite naseous...it wouldn't have been so bad if Dave had
managed to get all the characterisations right, I'm afraid old Dodger
didn't sound like himself at all (and that was just one of the minor
points of why I dislike that scene)anyway I don't want to get into it
, that is my opinion, do of it as you will... =)



-Tamino ...All too easy

"ISTI MIRANT STELLA" - Bayeux Tapestry
tamino@**********.wow.aust.com
Message no. 90
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:43:05 -0400
Mark Fender wrote:

> Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place in
> Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came out. It was
> fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it was fun.

That was our take, too. None of us really had the time or inclination to buy
more books than the basic rulebook and the companion, so we played for nearly 2
years real time where game time advanced about a year in Seattle. We had a
great time of it, and the GM invented his own world-shaking events if we seemed
to be getting a little complacent. On the other hand, he GMed a game when he
went home that followed FASA's timeline exactly. I tend to think of FASA's
timeline as more of a suggestion than a hard, fast rule. It's more fun that
way.

Wildfire
Message no. 91
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:44:48 -0400
At 19.06 08-16-99 -0700, you wrote:
>involved with it because it's just SO cool) is that it's a living,
>breathing world. Very few game systems can make that claim.

No argueement. It just seems that FASA's materials are from the same camp
as the one that says that history doesn't need to be taught in school.
There is very, very little out there that does anything more than an
immediate background, at least that I've found.

>*Doc' grins evilly. "Oh, I wasn't apologising. I NEVER apologise..."*

Raven grins (it isn't a pretty sight- squirrel out side my window faints)
I wasn't forgiving you. I was mearly dismissing your lack of protocal as
inconsiquential.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 92
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:51:48 -0500
> > > Hell, Twist, why not make it up and submit it to FASA for
> publishing?
> >
> >
> > Because I spend too much time replying to the List? :-)
> > -Twist
>
> *Doc' grins. "Let's make it easier on the poor boy. Twist, GO AWAY."*
>
You know, this was probably meant in fun, but that sort of attitude really
sucks. So Twist has some conceptual problems with the game. Does that mean
he has no right to be on this list? Is this list your personal little
playground? Do you own it?

Opinions are what make this list happen. If everyone agreed with everyone,
no one would say anything except "Me, too."
Message no. 93
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:58:57 -0500
> > > Well, Shadowbeat examined the entertainment biz and offered the
> > ability to play rocker types, but nothing really about shadowrunning.
> > (Unless you consider the Steal-Phone-Service-And-Cable-Service rules,
> > which were sweet.)
> > > -Twist
> >
> > Oh, c'mon, Twist! That was just the first 10 or 15 pages of the book.
>
> Give it up, Doc'. You're never gonna convince him because he doesn't want
> to be convinced. We're running in circles with this, and it's getting
> tired.
>
Um, you don't want to be convinced either. There are two sides to this
argument.
Message no. 94
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:42:08 -0500
>> Give it up, Doc'. You're never gonna convince him because he doesn't
>> want to be convinced. We're running in circles with this, and it's
>> getting tired.
>
>Um, you don't want to be convinced either. There are two sides to this
>argument.

I've been perfectly willing to be coninced, but there hasn't been a
compelling argument against my beliefs. There have been some interesting
points made, which I've taken note of, but to date no one has presented
what is, to me, a compelling argument that the atmospheric pieces that have
been published since, say, 1997 or so, are not contributing to atmosphere.

Patrick
Message no. 95
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:57:42 -0500
> > > If Shadowrun was just a game about stealing stuff or killing people
> > > without reasons, it wouldn't be interesting at all. It might as well
> > > be a GURPS system.
> >
> > Or, more correctly, AD&D. Replace corporations with evil wizards and
> > corporate security with dungeon and you have a good approximation.
>
> Where the hell did *that* bit of misinformation come from? I've been
> playing D&D and/or AD&D for 23 years or so, and I've never seen it played
> like you seem to imply.
>
Well the basic structure of a SR seems to fit this description. Team enters
corp complex (dungeon) to drag out some info (rescue the princess/grab the
Ring of One True Power) from the evil corp (evil wizard). Along the way,
there are various vile beasties (corp guards/paranormal critters) to fight.
And I agree that I've never seen it played this way either, but it IS called
Shadowrun (which the equivalent in a fantasy setting would be Dungeoncrawl).

> > Not that AD&D lacks all roleplaying interaction, but it is certainly
> > not stressed. This seems to be the case with SR3 as well.
>
> Stress on role-playing is the responsibility of the GM and the players,
> not
> the game system. IMHO.
>
Well, it is up to the GM and players to get that roleplaying in there, but
it helps point them in the right direction when the game system stresses
that. I've roleplayed in AD&D and Rifts, both of which don't stress the
roleplaying aspect. But I've hardly ever seen anyone make a straight up
combat monster in Vampire. The setting encouraged roleplaying and this
attitude was generally supported by the players/GMs. SR stresses the
combat/action/adventure aspect rather than the roleplaying one. While it is
possible to roleplay in it (and do a damned fine job of it), the stress is
not there in the rulebooks. That's all.
Message no. 96
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:05:27 -0500
> >Don't forget that the focus now is on releasing the set of beginners and
> >advanced rules for 3rd edition. Once this will be done (CC, M&M, Matrix,
> RR)
>
> OK, here's a question for everyone:
> Was SR3 needed, or could have a revised and expanded version of SR2
> been
> sufficent?
>
Why an expanded version would have been fine. I think a Shadowrun, Deluxe
Edition would have been better. Update the Matrix and the Vehicles and keep
the core SR2 stuff would have been great. New players don't have to worry
about catching up on all back books, while old hands could pick up the new
one if they wanted it all in one place.

> Seriously, of the stuff that was broken in SR2, what was fixed in
> SR3?
> Vehilces? There was nothing wrong with that. Character creation? Worked
> fine. Combat? I've yet to see a game handle it real well, but thier
> rules
> for the most part were good enough for most people. Matrix? It worked.
> Magic? It was screwed up in SR2 and from what I've read ofthem, they
> still
> screwed up, but in different ways, in SR3.
>
> >we'll start to see more atmosphere books. After all, how do you call
> RA:S? A
>
> At the total abandonment of older time settings.
>
> >rule book? And later this year there will be Year of The Comet and
> related
> >products, next year Survival of The Fittest and related products....
>
> I'll comment on those being setting when they make it to the market.
> I'll
> I've seen so far is a lot of hype that sounds like adventures and
> situations that are played once, and then they are history with books on
> the way to the second-hand rack as trade ins. When I say settings, I'm
> talking things like the CFS, London and Atzlan books that actually talk
> about a place, not a very specific (less than a year) time in that place,
> or groups (like Lone Star), that I can use for reference over a couple of
> years of game time.
>
This is a good point. I think the only books that have come out recently
that can be used for years to come are Cyberpirates and Underworld. They did
have some current stuff in them, but most of it wasn't year specefic.
Message no. 97
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:15:08 -0500
> > I like evolution as much as the next guy, but explain to me why
> outside of FASA most games don't stop supporting thier older time
> frames?
>
> Because only FASA provides "time-critical" games. Once certain events
> have taken place, especially in Shadowrun, it makes older stuff
> redundant. The essence of Shadowrun is secrets - and once the cat's out
> of the bag, there's little or no point continuing the older stuff.
>
Well, not only FASA make time critical games. There are others.

> > AD&D doesn't, and it is still one of the most popular games on the
> market. Star Wars didn't, and most of the stores I've delt with had a
> hard time keeping so much as core book in stock until WEG was run into
> the round.
> > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> > Tengu
>
> Bad examples, Kevin. With both AD&D and Star Wars, the "older events"
> take place centuries, if not millenia, prior to current events. Over
> that long a time frame, events in the older setting aren't likely to
> change anything in the newer one. In, what, 10 years(?), that's about
> as far as Shadowrun has aged. They CAN'T continue to support 2050
> games, because if they did and any discrepancies cropped up, it could
> possibly be disastrous (for the setting at least).
>
Whenever that first sourcebook came out, Street Samurai Catalog, FASA made a
conscious decision to set if AFTER the rulebook. If they had not done that,
none of the "time-critical" things you mentioned would have mattered. They
can continue to support 2050 games if they wanted to. They just don't
because of a decision made 10 years ago.


> I can't comment on your other examples, because I don't know the games
> well, but consider this. MANY of them are not selling well. SR is. So
> should FASA really go in the same direction as they took?
>
This point about selling well really isn't valid. Just because a game sells
well doesn't mean that everyone likes it. M:tG sells like crack and I hate
it. But, according to this argument, I'm in the wrong. I don't think so, I
just don't like card games. (The truth is I never learned how to shuffle.
*Sniff*)

> Oh, and you mentioned that a number of them are very "time-stable". No
> offense, but HOW ON EARTH is that a good thing???
>
Because you don't have to buy every damn book that comes out to keep up with
what the hell's going on, even if it interests you not at all??
Message no. 98
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:18:22 -0500
> > Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place
> in Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came out.
> It was fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it was
> fun.
> <Mark Fender>
>
> Mark, there's nothing wrong with that - for a campaign. But it sure
> isn't a good idea for a game system.
>
Why not? I don't see any world advancing plots in many AD&D game lines and
they do quite well for themselves.

Perhaps you could provide me with some examples of how this is bad and we
could continue to debate this like gentlemen.
Message no. 99
From: Fanguad fanguad@*******.org
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:20:25 -0400
>Well, it is up to the GM and players to get that roleplaying in there, but
>it helps point them in the right direction when the game system stresses
>that. I've roleplayed in AD&D and Rifts, both of which don't stress the
>roleplaying aspect. But I've hardly ever seen anyone make a straight up
>combat monster in Vampire. The setting encouraged roleplaying and this
>attitude was generally supported by the players/GMs. SR stresses the
>combat/action/adventure aspect rather than the roleplaying one. While it is
>possible to roleplay in it (and do a damned fine job of it), the stress is
>not there in the rulebooks. That's all.

I have to disagree with you here. Most of the gamers in my area are into White Wolf
Games. It seems that the only characters we ever get are combat monsters. I know for a
fact that this is the GM's fault. Yet, as you say, the stress in Vampire & other WW
games is roleplaying.
SR encourages roleplaying just as much as the next game, and I think that the GM is
usually the one that stresses the combat/action/adventure vs. roleplaying.
I don't think that game system determines play style nearly as much as the GM.
Just my 20 mils.

-Fanguad

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Message no. 100
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took
place in Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever
came out. It was fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but
it was fun.
> > <Mark Fender>
> >
> > Mark, there's nothing wrong with that - for a campaign. But it sure
isn't a good idea for a game system.
> >
> Why not? I don't see any world advancing plots in many AD&D game
lines and they do quite well for themselves.
>
> Perhaps you could provide me with some examples of how this is bad
and we could continue to debate this like gentlemen.

I would, but I'm getting bored with this.

As far as AD&D goes, it's NAME RECOGNITION. It's not that the games are
particularly good or interesting, although some are. To a great extent,
they sell because AD&D is the big granddaddy of them all. Many (or
most) roleplayers start out with AD&D because of that fact and they
stay with it out of loyalty and because it's usually a pretty fun game.
But that's it.

I for one started out with AD&D. I was an absolute freak. I bought
literally hundreds of their books (inc. novels). Then I was introduced
to Shadowrun. I ended up selling most of my AD&D gamebooks (I probably
have about 5 now) and the only thing I've bought for it in the past 5
years now has been ONE SINGLE NOVEL.

Shadowrun and BattleTech are the games that are on the rise at the
moment - and they're the ones with the least static worlds.

'Kay?

I'm not saying that static is bad entirely - but as other people have
also pointed out, the gaming industry on the whole is in a slump, and
it isn't the static settings that are rising above that.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 101
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > Because only FASA provides "time-critical" games. Once certain
events have taken place, especially in Shadowrun, it makes older stuff
redundant. The essence of Shadowrun is secrets - and once the cat's out
of the bag, there's little or no point continuing the older stuff.
> >
> Well, not only FASA make time critical games. There are others.

Examples, pliss?

> > Bad examples, Kevin. With both AD&D and Star Wars,
> the "older events"
> > take place centuries, if not millenia, prior to
> current events. Over
> > that long a time frame, events in the older
> setting aren't likely to
> > change anything in the newer one. In, what, 10
> years(?), that's about
> > as far as Shadowrun has aged. They CAN'T continue
> to support 2050
> > games, because if they did and any discrepancies
> cropped up, it could
> > possibly be disastrous (for the setting at least).
>
> >
> Whenever that first sourcebook came out, Street Samurai Catalog, FASA
made a conscious decision to set if AFTER the rulebook. If they had not
done that, none of the "time-critical" things you mentioned would have
mattered. They can continue to support 2050 games if they wanted to.
They just don't because of a decision made 10 years ago.

You may be right about that (and I can't disprove it), but that was a
very sound marketing decision. As for me personally, I simply don't see
the sense of putting out more and more game products set in the year
2050 when everything else is set after that.

Hell, there's only so much that can happen in one place in one year. If
every single Shadowrun product had been set between, say, 2050 to 2052,
the game would look RIDICULOUS.

> This point about selling well really isn't valid.

Why not? My point to you is that FASA is doing well with a dynamic game
system. I think sales are a pretty good measure of that. As far as
whether the game is good or not, I think it is. Obviously you do as
well, to a large extent, or you wouldn't be on this list.

> Just because a game sells well doesn't mean that everyone likes it.
M:tG sells like crack and I hate it. But, according to this argument,
I'm in the wrong. I don't think so, I just don't like card games. (The
truth is I never learned how to shuffle. *Sniff*)

Ummm...I can just say one thing here...duh?? If a game is selling like
Magic, that means a HELL of a lot of people like it. It doesn't mean
it's a good game, but it means it's a popular game. I personally hate
Magic too - but it SELLS! No, not everyone likes it - but it seems the
majority do. I don't even know what you're trying to say here - a game
that sells well isn't necessarily popular? That just doesn't make
sense, Mark.

> > Oh, and you mentioned that a number of them are very "time-stable".
No offense, but HOW ON EARTH is that a good thing???
> >
> Because you don't have to buy every damn book that comes out to keep
up with what the hell's going on, even if it interests you not at all??

Okay, that's a good thing for a GM on a budget. But it a) isn't a good
thing for a gaming company and b) isn't a good thing as far as the
development of the game goes.

Btw, if you ARE on a budget, but you have a regular group, why not try
the team karma pool idea? If you want to get something for the group,
have everyone chip in a bit. The GM holds onto the book, as he's the
one who's going to be using it most (probably), but everyone has access
to it. That way no single person has to bear the brunt of the costs.

Just an idea.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 102
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:46:28 -0400
At 17.33 08-17-99 -0700, you wrote:
>> Because you don't have to buy every damn book that comes out to keep
>up with what the hell's going on, even if it interests you not at all??
>
>Okay, that's a good thing for a GM on a budget. But it a) isn't a good
>thing for a gaming company and

Sort term profits from new players that will move on in a year vs. long
term profits from players who will stick with the game for a decade or
better? As I've said, I think everythime they release a book that might
hold the key to some major event, but they only mention it in that book and
one rarer than hen's teeth novel, they earn ire from thier customers.

>b) isn't a good thing as far as the
>development of the game goes.

It also isn't a bad thing. I'm saying that they need to make the setting
totally static, but I do think they need to rerelease older amterial that
provides background, or print "yearbooks" (Call them part of the Target
line, ie Target: 2050-2055.) that are mainly reference and some game hooks,
maybe a sketched adventure and some historically prominant NPCS,
organizations and gizmos.
If the later, they can take 60-80% of thier content from previoulsy
published materials.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your pholosophy."
Message no. 103
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:11:33 CST
Mark Fender wrote:

>Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place >in
>Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came >out. It
>was fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it >was fun.


I think Mark here has touched on something key. An old quote seems to apply
best to rpg's. "Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the law" I think
I might have mangled the words, but nailed the idea. If the group doesn't
mind then hey, everything's good. Anything else doesn't really matter.


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 104
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:20:56 -0700 (PDT)
> >> Because you don't have to buy every damn book that comes out to
keep up with what the hell's going on, even if it interests you not at
all??
> >
> >Okay, that's a good thing for a GM on a budget. But it a) isn't a
good thing for a gaming company and
>
> Sort term profits from new players that will move on in a year vs.
long term profits from players who will stick with the game for a
decade or better?

On average, those long term players are going to be MUCH fewer in
numbers and thus buy a smaller volume of books - over a longer period,
no less. I'm afraid that doesn't work out in any equation. Relying on
people like us is the kind of thing that got FASA in a situation where
they had to sell off Interactive to get more funds.

> As I've said, I think everythime they release a book that might hold
the key to some major event, but they only mention it in that book and
one rarer than hen's teeth novel, they earn ire from thier customers.

Really? Why? That's how EVERY company that has major events does it. I
think I'd be more irritated with having to buy multiple books to get
the entire picture on a large event.

If you're talking summary books (as you mention below) which come out
some time after the original books, that's different.

> >b) isn't a good thing as far as the development of the game goes.
>
> It also isn't a bad thing. I'm saying that they need to make the
setting totally static,

No, but it sure sounded like Mark has been advocating that. And that IS
a bad thing for game development.

> but I do think they need to rerelease older amterial that provides
background, or print "yearbooks" (Call them part of the Target line,
ie Target: 2050-2055.) that are mainly reference and some game hooks,
maybe a sketched adventure and some historically prominant NPCS,
organizations and gizmos.
> If the later, they can take 60-80% of thier content from previoulsy
published materials.
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> Tengu

Hey, that's not a bad idea. If that's what you mean by supporting the
older settings, I'd go for that. If I were doing it, I'd probably do
one book for every two years (depending on how much happened in a
particular year).

The only question is whether or not it would sell. As I've said so many
times now, if you want it, you'll have to demonstrate to FASA that it's
a good idea. And I'll be in on that.

And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 105
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:34:26 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > Hell, Twist, why not make it up and submit it
> to FASA for
> > publishing?
> > >
> > > Because I spend too much time replying to the
> List? :-)
> > > -Twist
> >
> > *Doc' grins. "Let's make it easier on the poor
> boy. Twist, GO AWAY."*
> >
> You know, this was probably meant in fun, but that sort of attitude
really sucks. So Twist has some conceptual problems with the game. Does
that mean he has no right to be on this list? Is this list your
personal little playground? Do you own it?
>
> Opinions are what make this list happen. If everyone agreed with
everyone, no one would say anything except "Me, too."

Mark, I just have one thing to say. "Get a grip."

That was NOT my attitude and I think even Twist realised that. HE
didn't complain about that one to me. (He did complain about something
else, but he had reason to do so, even though it was a
misunderstanding.)

Note the **'s. Note how I placed it at the end of my message. If you'd
read ANY of my previous messages at all, you would have realised that
means it isn't me, but my evil alter-ego speaking. :)

Oh, and one last thing - why are you bagging me? As I recall, I'm one
of the only people who's tried to look at this from both sides (even
though I disagree with your POV) and had any constructive suggestions
about how you can get what you want. I'm the NICE guy.

8-)

*Doc' gives Mark an atomic wedgie and runs away...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 106
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:33:00 CST
>From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>

> I'll comment on those being setting when they make it to the market.
> >I'll I've seen so far is a lot of hype that sounds like adventures >and
>situations that are played once, and then they are history with >books on
>the way to the second-hand rack as trade ins. When I say >settings, I'm
>talking things like the CFS, London and Atzlan books >that actually talk
>about a place, not a very specific (less than a >year) time in that place,
>or groups (like Lone Star), that I can use >for reference over a couple of
>years of game time.


Out of curiosity CR, what do you think of the Target books???

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 107
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:45:20 CST
>From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>

> Hell, no need for anything new, except for the setting books (and that
>just means some more detail on the events of the past ten years), but
>occasionally reprinting older stuff (ie: the infamous Universal Brotherhood
>module) might be nice, and it would sell.

Good point! There is some OOP stuff that I would LOVE to get without paying
an arm and a leg for and that I knew was in good condition.



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Message no. 108
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:21:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 6:45:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
fanguad@*******.org writes:

> I have to disagree with you here. Most of the gamers in my area are
into
> White Wolf Games. It seems that the only characters we ever get are combat
> monsters. I know for a fact that this is the GM's fault. Yet, as you say,
> the stress in Vampire & other WW games is roleplaying.
> SR encourages roleplaying just as much as the next game, and I think
that
> the GM is usually the one that stresses the combat/action/adventure vs.
> roleplaying.
> I don't think that game system determines play style nearly as much as
> the GM.
> Just my 20 mils.
>
> -Fanguad


So if you're not fighting in Shadowrun (or stealing: action), what else are
you doing? SR doesn't really encourage roleplaying that much. Everything is
about the job, as those on the list have said again and again: it's a game
about committing crimes. The older books which gave you a sense of
roleplaying (stuff like NAGRL and Shadowbeat) are now OOP, but even those
usually helped someway in the action/adventure theme of SR (NAGRL had
security measures in it, and Shadowbeat gave you options for brainwashing and
how to play Urban Brawl or Combat Biker).




-Twist
Message no. 109
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:39:58 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 9:12:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
knight_errant30@*******.com writes:

> I think Mark here has touched on something key. An old quote seems to
apply
> best to rpg's. "Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the law" I
think
>
> I might have mangled the words, but nailed the idea. If the group doesn't
> mind then hey, everything's good. Anything else doesn't really matter.
>
>
> Geoff Haacke


Unless you wanted to include "Love is the Law, Love under will" (which I
doubt you did), that's right. You just don't see that many Crowley quotes
that much anymore.





-Twist
Message no. 110
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:42:54 -0400
>> I have to disagree with you here. Most of the gamers in my area
are
>into
>> White Wolf Games. It seems that the only characters we ever get
are combat
>> monsters. I know for a fact that this is the GM's fault. Yet, as
you say,
>> the stress in Vampire & other WW games is roleplaying.
>> SR encourages roleplaying just as much as the next game, and I
think
>that
>> the GM is usually the one that stresses the combat/action/adventure
vs.
>> roleplaying.
>> I don't think that game system determines play style nearly as
much as
>> the GM.
>> Just my 20 mils.
>>
>> -Fanguad
>
>
>So if you're not fighting in Shadowrun (or stealing: action), what
else are
>you doing? SR doesn't really encourage roleplaying that much.
Everything is
>about the job, as those on the list have said again and again: it's a
game
>about committing crimes. The older books which gave you a sense of
>roleplaying (stuff like NAGRL and Shadowbeat) are now OOP, but even
those
>usually helped someway in the action/adventure theme of SR (NAGRL had
>security measures in it, and Shadowbeat gave you options for
brainwashing and
>how to play Urban Brawl or Combat Biker).


OK, I agreed with your PoV so far, but WtF are you talking about?
Sure, everyone here likes combat (God only knows I love it), but
without sourcebooks (I'm not using them at the moment because I don't
want to overwhelm my newbie players), I daresay the game's expanded
quite a bit because instead of being forced into one location, we're
doing the Scooby-Doo/A-Team thing, wandering around UCAS in an Ares
Citymaster (don't ask), solving crimes, taking odd jobs (and random
tasks), helping out the poor, and whatever anyone feels like doing.
Granted, it's not the most accurate, combat-oriented, true role-player
game in the world (it actually leans more towards loony, actually),
but it's fun. We bring paper, eat Crunchberries (and nothing but),
drink root beer, roll dice, and act like cartoon characters.

Sourcebooks are cool, sourcebooks are good reading, sourcebooks are
helpful in paying RPGs, but sourcebooks are not the say-all, end-all
of role-playing. I have Tir Tairngire because I wanted to see how the
elves'd do. I had Target:UCAS because I wanted to see what Detroit'd
end up like (somewhat disappointed, by the way), and sometimes I'll
pull out the London sourcebook if anyone feels like playing a British
Giant (hasn't happened yet, but I'm ready...), but otherwise, I make
everything up. New gear? Make some up. New races? Make some up.
Atmosphere? Make some up. Run out of ideas? Download NERPS and
NAGEE. A toon town in California Free State inhabited by free
spirits? Well, um...watch Roger Rabbit.

-----
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http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"You fool, pain is my friend! Allow me to introduce you to him!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!"
Message no. 111
From: GreyWolf sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:59:29 +1000
Rand masqueraded as himself and wrote:

> Note the **'s. Note how I placed it at the end of my message. If you'd
> read ANY of my previous messages at all, you would have realised that
> means it isn't me, but my evil alter-ego speaking. :)

No.. the start of your messages have the nice "alter-ego" speaking. the
rest of the mesage is what youre usually like :P~

> I'm the NICE guy.

<snort> ... <giggle>.... <ROTFLMAO>....

Sorry.. had to laugh... :)

> *Doc' gives Mark an atomic XXXXX and runs away...*

*Greywolf thinks Doc is REALLY nice to be giving away his atomic budgie*

Dont you love taking the mickey out of these silly arguments other ppl
have?

GreyWolf
--
"I don't know, Scotty. Maybe it's just the _idea_ of an inflatable
rubber starship that bothers me."
Message no. 112
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:01:27 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/99 10:43:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
angelkiller404@**********.com writes:

> >So if you're not fighting in Shadowrun (or stealing: action), what
> else are
> >you doing? SR doesn't really encourage roleplaying that much.
> Everything is
> >about the job, as those on the list have said again and again: it's a
> game
> >about committing crimes. The older books which gave you a sense of
> >roleplaying (stuff like NAGRL and Shadowbeat) are now OOP, but even
> those
> >usually helped someway in the action/adventure theme of SR (NAGRL had
> >security measures in it, and Shadowbeat gave you options for
> brainwashing and
> >how to play Urban Brawl or Combat Biker).
>
>
> OK, I agreed with your PoV so far, but WtF are you talking about?


What I'm saying is Shadowrun is a game of combat and action. The sourcebooks
previously gave you some small chances at extra roleplaying ops, but
Shadowrun will always be about combat and action. If you want serious
character roleplaying, play Unknown Armies. If you want to fry people with
fireballs and shoot them with assault cannons, it's Shadowrun. I miss
atmosphere books because I'd like to see more of what FASA can put out to
help each player conceptualize living and working in Shadowrun. After all,
even in a combat-heavy game like SR, the characters spend the majority of
their time living in a world where combat doesn't occur every three-second
turn. All those times your GM zooms the timeline while you heal, or while
you have some down-time between adventures, it'd be good to have an idea of
what your character experiences in his world. That's what makes Findley's
SR novels so much fun. They gave you the little moments between each gun
fight and big-time combat scene. That's what makes House of the Sun such a
blast. (Take a look at that novel. There are exactly two combat scenes.
One at the mansion and one at the ritual. Only one of these Dirk fights in.)
Most technology comes from warfare and trickles down to the average
citizen's daily life, so it'd be nice to also see how these great leaps in
technology affect everyday people. Think something like Bladerunner.



-Twist
Message no. 113
From: Fanguad fanguad@*******.org
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 01:50:02 -0400
On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:21:40 EDT Twist0059@***.com wrote:

>> I don't think that game system determines play
>> style nearly as much as the GM.
>>
>> -Fanguad
>
>So if you're not fighting in Shadowrun (or stealing: action), what else are
>you doing? SR doesn't really encourage roleplaying that much.
>-Twist

Again, I think that the system has much less to do with encouraging roleplaying than the
GM. I know of GMs (one in particular) that purposely stay away from combat unless the PCs
insist on it. In her opinion, it slows the game down too much, and lessens role-playing.
Yet we still get our runs done, and we're still playing mainstream SR characters.

-Fanguad

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Message no. 114
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 02:12:37 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/99 11:07:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > A lot of this about bad roleplaying, but GMs aren't a limitless pool of
> > ideas. While we all specialize in a certain kind of op, it helps to
have
> > fresh materials every now and then, and printing new crap that is same
> old
> > run gets boring after a while.
>
> Hold it right there IR. the GM(s) involved may or may not be a limitless
> source of inspirations, but if its' up to ONLY the GM(s), then the group
is
> truly doomed at some point in time. Here's an idea that Mike B.
> occasionally
> does here. Every so often, he takes a player-poll with the question .. "
> what
> kind of stuff would you like to do for a bit?" The group gives what
> opinions
> it may have at the time, and we (Mike and I) try and integrate into the
> general storyline that we have moving at the time.

Something else that I do is that if nothing is happening in the game(s) then
I consider reintriducing Winternight for a game or part of one so that I can
throw massive amounts of firepower at them and watch them squirm in a combat
situation which can become truly frightening.

-Mike
Message no. 115
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:01:45 +1000
At 18:20 17/08/99 -0700 Rand Ratinac wrote
>And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
>reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?

Well can anyone tell me why the hell they _are_ reprinting
Tir Na Nog? I would have preferred a sourcebook be reprinted
that is at least relevant. Tir Tairngire would be good, as too
would Lone Star.

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 116
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:24:59 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Manx."
] >And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
] >reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
]
] Well can anyone tell me why the hell they _are_ reprinting
] Tir Na Nog? I would have preferred a sourcebook be reprinted
] that is at least relevant. Tir Tairngire would be good, as too
] would Lone Star.

They're reprinting Tir na nOg? Why? I have to say, its repuatation
is well deserved...took me forever to slog through that one. Still
haven't read the last section, the one that details every friggin'
castle, rock, and bog in the country.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Message no. 117
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 01:32:44 -0600
At 17:01 8/18/99 +1000, Manx wrote:
>At 18:20 17/08/99 -0700 Rand Ratinac wrote
>>And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
>>reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
>
>Well can anyone tell me why the hell they _are_ reprinting
>Tir Na Nog?

Where did you hear this? Mike certainly said nothing at all about
reprinting it at Gencon.

Adam
Message no. 118
From: Ben Hayes bjh10@***.edu.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:33:06 +1000
Thought I'd mentioned something that happened in our campaign a couple
of weeks ago. I think it was possibly the best atmosphere I've ever had
in my short roleplaying experience.

One of our runners(who always wishes to remain nameless but rarely
succeeds) is the son of a Shiawase exec, slumming it. He is somewhat
naive and roleplay's this to a tee(his pocket secretary's note to self
shadowrunning tips were up to 47 when we stopped counting). A couple of
months ago, he decided to plan and throw a large gala ball type affair,
inviting many VIP's. After planning this for a couple of months in both
real and game time, we actually had the ball a couple of weeks ago. It
ended up costing this character and the one he managed to con into
co-hosting and going halvies with him about 40K nuyen each, however, the
whole party got to go and mingle and hobnob with the bigwigs for the
night. My character, who hadn't yet met the team at that point went as
someone's bodyguard/date(hey he has Ballroom Dancing 4), and spent much
of the time handing out business cards for his Muay Thai dojo to anyone
who would take one. Most of the characters had little idea how to act in
such company, but it was fun watching their attempts. Particularly the
Sam in the group, who found out about the social penalties for obvious
cyberware.

The point I'm trying to make here is that all this atmosphere was made
by the players and GM of our group.

I'm not naive enough to say that atmosphere in various sourcebooks is
crap blah blah blah, but I certainly feel that the best atmosphere has
to come from the players. If all the PC's want to do is fight(a problem
I have with one of the characters in the group I GM), then it can be
difficult to get them to do anything else. All I want FASA to provide in
terms of atmosphere is the sort of background level stuff they put in
the sourcebooks, because if I'm not feeling creative enough to conjure
up my own images and atmosphere, I'm probably better off not playing.
Message no. 119
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:03:34 +1000
At 01:32 18/08/99 -0600 Adam J wrote
> >Well can anyone tell me why the hell they _are_ reprinting
> >Tir Na Nog?
>
>Where did you hear this? Mike certainly said nothing at all about
>reprinting it at Gencon.
>

The Australian FASA distributor has Tir Na Nog listed
for reprinting soon in it's new catalogue. They are usually
very reliable when it comes to FASA products, hell they
got me the SR3 hardcover.

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 120
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: SR Narrowing of Focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:29:53 +0100
Mark said
"Opinions are what make this list happen. If everyone agreed with everyone,
no one would say anything except "Me, too.""

...welcome to AOL.... ;-)
Message no. 121
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:39:12 -0400 (EDT)
Penta wrote:
>
> Tinner said:
>
> > The best decking atmoshpere I have ever seen in SR game material is in RA:S
> > The whole scene where Dodger, Fastjack, et. al. fight off the angels is the
> > best written example of what cyberspace combat should feel like I have ever
> > seen.
>
> YES! Agreed. HIGHLY. Another great example: The very FACT that there are
> *troops in the streets*. For those who have no CLUE how to RP this:
> 1. Those troops are COMBAT troops. Full gear. ARMED. Every so often there are
> maybe TANKS, maybe simple APCs.
> 2.To put it bluntly, it should scare ANYONE *shitless* (Gridsec, apologies for
> the language. Best way to express this.). The UCAS is supposed to be a
> democracy. This would mark maybe the FIRST time outside of WAR that a
> democracy has active combat troops in its own STREETS. It should make
> *everybody* scared.

Kinda OT, but I must admit, that was one of the better parts of the 1998
Origins tournament. For those of you that missed it, we ran the Arcology
Shutdown. Right from the start, the players were tense and uneasy about
the whole restricted area and dealing with troops. And not just on the
ground, there was plenty going on in astral space as well. Nothing like
a special-forces combat mage to ruin a little astral sight-seeing trip.

Running the streets and going up against the Mob is one thing. Taking on
the UCAS Army is quite another. I think the Aztlan book talked about this
a bit wrt the Azzie army.
Message no. 122
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:09:19 -0400
At 18.20 08-17-99 -0700, you wrote:
>think I'd be more irritated with having to buy multiple books to get
>the entire picture on a large event.

That is what I'm talking about, I just really screwed up the wording. I
would love to be able to buy EVERY suppliment and novel, and have the time
to read them, but who does? (That is a retiorical question. Anyone
answering in the affermative will be thwapped, but I prefeer celocanth to
carp. And for those that don't know, a celocanth is a big, prehistoric,
heavily armoued fish that was thought to be extinct until about the '40s
IIRC. It is the differnce between a size 4 work glove and a size 12,
plate-and-mail gauntlet.)

>If you're talking summary books (as you mention below) which come out
>some time after the original books, that's different.

Yep. I would rather wait two or three years, but one book, and be able to
catch up, rather than

>Hey, that's not a bad idea. If that's what you mean by supporting the
>older settings, I'd go for that. If I were doing it, I'd probably do

Yep. No need to produce new material, except maybe some quotes and a
throw-away adventure or two per book, while still keeping the data alive.
It's largely the smae thing that they did in BT with TR:2025 before they
had to change it.

>times now, if you want it, you'll have to demonstrate to FASA that it's
>a good idea. And I'll be in on that.

And the way of business is, unless you can show a pre-existing market,
they won't go for it.
I hate being an inovator.

>reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?

Uh, conventional wisdom from a buisness school is that they are old news,
and should be shoved aside for new products. That is the problem when
accountants who are trained ont he automotive or electronics model are
placed in charge of a gaming comapny, rather than gamers with accounting
training.

>Do You Yahoo!?

Only under the full moon or when the hot water runs out in the shower. <g>



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 123
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:09:25 -0400
At 19.33 08-17-99 CST, you wrote:
>Out of curiosity CR, what do you think of the Target books???

Of what I've read? And I should warn you, it isn't very much, so they
could actually be what I'm looking for.

First off, I think the new art, well, sucks. Some of it is good, but a
lot of it is too... Something. Don't precisely know how to describe it,
it just doesn't look quite right fro SR. And that is across the board, not
just the Target line, for most of the books since Bug City have been too
angler, dark and distorted for the interior art, and covers and plates have
largely been just "ewwww", but that is just me. (Although I like the CFS
cover.)

To me, what I've read feels like those travel books that you can find in
hotels. The only thing missing is a list of resturants and night clubs.
<g>
I also think that they tried to cover too much ground, or they had not
enough book to do it and stuff got heavily editited. Example, Target: UCAS
should have either been thicker with more info each city, or just been a
general book about the UCAS, with a handful of cities mentioned in medium
detail, like the CFS book.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 124
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:22:16 -0500
> > Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took place in
> > Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever came out. It
> was
> > fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but it was fun.
>
> That was our take, too. None of us really had the time or inclination to
> buy
> more books than the basic rulebook and the companion, so we played for
> nearly 2
> years real time where game time advanced about a year in Seattle. We had
> a
> great time of it, and the GM invented his own world-shaking events if we
> seemed
> to be getting a little complacent. On the other hand, he GMed a game when
> he
> went home that followed FASA's timeline exactly. I tend to think of
> FASA's
> timeline as more of a suggestion than a hard, fast rule. It's more fun
> that
> way.
>
I agree. Taking the whole SR timeline thing as a suggestion is the way to
go. However, recently I've noticed a big trend to push this story line
harder and harder. Now, I'm not against a big story (I don't know how many
times I read and reread Denver trying to figure out stuff), but I'm not sure
I like the heavy-handed attitude they're taking with it now. Example: the
only "Storyline" event I can think of back in the Tom days was Bug City. In
order to grok the setting, you needed to read Bug City and Burning Bright.
Not too bad. With the recent Dunkie death, you needed to read a trilogy of
novels, an adventure supplement, and Dunzie's will. Escalation. It's getting
harder and harder to keep up with what's going on.

Now, since all of this is a suggestion, I can ignore it or use it as I see
fit. Unfortunately, I don't know what the hell's going on, as I wasn't able
to pick up all these products (Picked up the will - don't read gaming novels
and don't buy adventures), so this suggestion of what's going on is totally
lost on me. Makes it hard for me to decide if I want to use it or not.

This is a relatively minor complaint, (to be honest who's President doesn't
affect my Bug City campaign in the slightest) but I think with the lack of
atmosphere books recently (which is supposedly happening in the future) and
the reprinting of all the rulebooks, it starts to escalate. Working on the
Three Strikes and You're Out principle, all of these things combined makes
the situation harder to deal with. This isn't a major problem, as I can
always ignore most of these supplements, but it's still a little trying. I'd
like to see some new, interesting supplements (with atmosphere) with some
self-contained plots. I don't think this is too much to ask. I hope that
supplements out later this year (YOTC) will fulfill this bequest. In the
meantime, I'll find something else to spend my gaming dollar on.

(Please keep the Bitching at this bequest to a minimum. I know the tendency
to jump down someone's throat when they disagree with anything happening in
SR. I am aware that you people exist and I don't need your personal attacks
on me to be aware of your feelings. If you have something insightful to say,
I welcome your comments.)

(It's pretty sad that that had to be said, but there it is.)
Message no. 125
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:36:04 +700
>>> I don't think that game system determines play
>>> style nearly as much as the GM.
>>
>>So if you're not fighting in Shadowrun (or stealing: action), what else are

>>you doing? SR doesn't really encourage roleplaying that much.
>>-Twist
>
>Again, I think that the system has much less to do with encouraging roleplaying
than the GM. I know of GMs (one in

Personally I think the Shadowrun system discourages some roleplay. There is
a die roll mechanic and modifier available for almost any situation. That means
that a group could easily skip past a lot of the roleplay by simply rolling
the dice.

I had the odd situation last week of having my players complain to me about
the negotiation scenes. They insisted on haggling a price with the Johnson so
I made them roleplay it. For about 40 minutes... Afterwards they complained
that I should have just let them make a dice roll... (they weren't happy with
getting "only" 60 thousand nuyen for rescusing a kidnapped girl...)

And in the same discussion I later heard a complaint that people weren't staying
in character and roleplaying enough... :)

Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 126
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:01:39 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
(THE BIG SNIP tm)
>That's what makes House of the Sun such a
>blast. (Take a look at that novel. There are exactly two combat scenes.
>One at the mansion and one at the ritual. Only one of these Dirk fights
>in.)

Three if you count the attempted ambush (which led directly to a real ambush
by someone else). :)



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 127
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:12:17 -0400 (EDT)
> >>> I don't think that game system determines play
> >>> style nearly as much as the GM.
> >>
> >>So if you're not fighting in Shadowrun (or stealing: action), what else are
> >>you doing? SR doesn't really encourage roleplaying that much.
> >>-Twist
> >
> >Again, I think that the system has much less to do with encouraging
> > roleplaying than the GM. I know of GMs (one in
>
> Personally I think the Shadowrun system discourages some roleplay. There is
> a die roll mechanic and modifier available for almost any situation. That
> means that a group could easily skip past a lot of the roleplay by simply
> rolling the dice.

You can say the same for nearly every modern game out today. It's up to
the GM and the group whether or not they'll reduce everything to just a
die roll.
Message no. 128
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:13:28 +700
>At 18:20 17/08/99 -0700 Rand Ratinac wrote
>>And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
>>reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
>
>Well can anyone tell me why the hell they _are_ reprinting
>Tir Na Nog? I would have preferred a sourcebook be reprinted
>that is at least relevant. Tir Tairngire would be good, as too
>would Lone Star.

They are?

Probably a sales issue. Isn't Tir Na nOg supposed to be a munchkin feast? It
needs to be updated to have it's magic work like it was described in MitS (or
just strip out the magic sections and say "see page X of MitS").

Lone Star info wise is a good choice, but I hear it sold poorly. Probably because
only GMs bought it. Though it makes a good player book as well if you want to
run cops. But I don't think the average Shadowrun player saw it that way.

But for Tir Na nOg; Palladium has proven to the market that players love to
buy munchkin books. After all RIFTS is the number two selling RPG product on
the market (behind the White Wolf line).

Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 129
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:12:59 -0500
> >> Give it up, Doc'. You're never gonna convince him because he doesn't
> >> want to be convinced. We're running in circles with this, and it's
> >> getting tired.
> >
> >Um, you don't want to be convinced either. There are two sides to this
> >argument.
>
> I've been perfectly willing to be coninced, but there hasn't been a
> compelling argument against my beliefs. There have been some interesting
> points made, which I've taken note of, but to date no one has presented
> what is, to me, a compelling argument that the atmospheric pieces that
> have
> been published since, say, 1997 or so, are not contributing to atmosphere.
>
Very well. However, I doubt that you've convinced any of us either. I'm glad
you picked up some points, but I was mainly responding to the biased tone
this message had. Merely pointing out the other side and that there is
another side.

On the other hand, I'm interested in how you believe the atmosphere has not
decreased in recent products. Convince me.
Message no. 130
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:28:59 -0400
Arcady wrote:

> I had the odd situation last week of having my players complain to me about
> the negotiation scenes. They insisted on haggling a price with the Johnson so
> I made them roleplay it. For about 40 minutes... Afterwards they complained
> that I should have just let them make a dice roll... (they weren't happy with
> getting "only" 60 thousand nuyen for rescusing a kidnapped girl...)
>
> And in the same discussion I later heard a complaint that people weren't staying
> in character and roleplaying enough... :)
>

Amount of roleplaying is a tricky thing. I ran into the problem of GM and all had
different levels of immersing themselves in a character. In particular, one player
wanted to really get into it, but her character was the quiet, thoughtful, slightly
pessimistic one, and whenever she role-played well, the other players asked if
she(the player) was okay. She eventually just had to lighten up because she got
tired of explaining, "I'm fine! I'm trying to play in character!"

Wildfire
Message no. 131
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:08:05 -0500
> >Well, it is up to the GM and players to get that roleplaying in there,
> but
> >it helps point them in the right direction when the game system stresses
> >that. I've roleplayed in AD&D and Rifts, both of which don't stress the
> >roleplaying aspect. But I've hardly ever seen anyone make a straight up
> >combat monster in Vampire. The setting encouraged roleplaying and this
> >attitude was generally supported by the players/GMs. SR stresses the
> >combat/action/adventure aspect rather than the roleplaying one. While it
> is
> >possible to roleplay in it (and do a damned fine job of it), the stress
> is
> >not there in the rulebooks. That's all.
>
> I have to disagree with you here. Most of the gamers in my area are
> into White Wolf Games. It seems that the only characters we ever get are
> combat monsters. I know for a fact that this is the GM's fault. Yet, as
> you say, the stress in Vampire & other WW games is roleplaying.
> SR encourages roleplaying just as much as the next game, and I think
> that the GM is usually the one that stresses the combat/action/adventure
> vs. roleplaying.
> I don't think that game system determines play style nearly as much as
> the GM.
> Just my 20 mils.
>
Okay. Maybe I stated that wrong. I think players and GMs decide what they're
going to do with a game. I think they are influenced by what the game
presents. WoD games emphasize role-playing social interaction. Many (but not
all) GM/players will take this stress and run with it. Others will see how
long it takes to bleed a Werewolf to death.

I also think a game can inspire people to do certain things with it. I'm not
inspired by Rifts to role-play. I am by WoD. Not that any of these games is
any less cool (both have cool points and bad points), but one inspires me to
role-play more than the other one.

Perhaps that states my point better.
Message no. 132
From: Christopher Pratt valen@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:22:05 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Arcady <arcady@***.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 11:13 PM
Subject: RE: SR Narrowing of focus


> >At 18:20 17/08/99 -0700 Rand Ratinac wrote
> >>And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
> >>reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
> >
> >Well can anyone tell me why the hell they _are_ reprinting
> >Tir Na Nog? I would have preferred a sourcebook be reprinted
> >that is at least relevant. Tir Tairngire would be good, as too
> >would Lone Star.
>
> They are?
>
> Probably a sales issue. Isn't Tir Na nOg supposed to be a munchkin feast?
It
> needs to be updated to have it's magic work like it was described in MitS
(or
> just strip out the magic sections and say "see page X of MitS").
>
> Lone Star info wise is a good choice, but I hear it sold poorly. Probably
because
> only GMs bought it. Though it makes a good player book as well if you want
to
> run cops. But I don't think the average Shadowrun player saw it that way.

But Lone Star had that really cool "top ten resons not to be a perp"

>
> But for Tir Na nOg; Palladium has proven to the market that players love
to
> buy munchkin books. After all RIFTS is the number two selling RPG product
on
> the market (behind the White Wolf line).
>
> Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
> elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
> /.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
> \(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/

"Windows 95: 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to
an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor,
written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition." -
Unknown
Christopher Pratt
valen@*******.com
Message no. 133
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:18:44 CST
>From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>
>
> To me, what I've read feels like those travel books that you can find in
>hotels. The only thing missing is a list of resturants and night clubs.
><g>

Ironically, a lot of place books had those listings. :)

> I also think that they tried to cover too much ground, or they had not
>enough book to do it and stuff got heavily editited. Example, Target: UCAS
>should have either been thicker with more info each city, or just been a
>general book about the UCAS, with a handful of cities mentioned in medium
>detail, like the CFS book.

I agree, I did feel gyped (sp) that there were only 3 cities (th say nothing
of their treatment of Windsor :D )



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 134
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:27:50 -0500
> > > > Besides, what's wrong with a fixed world? Our old SR game took
> place in Seattle, wherein our GM ignored every sourcebook that ever
> came out. It was fun. It didn't advance according to SR's timeline, but
> it was fun.
> > > <Mark Fender>
> > >
> > > Mark, there's nothing wrong with that - for a campaign. But it sure
> isn't a good idea for a game system.
> > >
> > Why not? I don't see any world advancing plots in many AD&D game
> lines and they do quite well for themselves.
> >
> > Perhaps you could provide me with some examples of how this is bad
> and we could continue to debate this like gentlemen.
>
> I would, but I'm getting bored with this.
>
> As far as AD&D goes, it's NAME RECOGNITION. It's not that the games are
> particularly good or interesting, although some are. To a great extent,
> they sell because AD&D is the big granddaddy of them all. Many (or
> most) roleplayers start out with AD&D because of that fact and they
> stay with it out of loyalty and because it's usually a pretty fun game.
> But that's it.
>
And SR3 didn't sell like all get out because of the name?
Message no. 135
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:43:44 -0500
> > > Because only FASA provides "time-critical" games. Once certain
> events have taken place, especially in Shadowrun, it makes older stuff
> redundant. The essence of Shadowrun is secrets - and once the cat's out
> of the bag, there's little or no point continuing the older stuff.
> > >
> > Well, not only FASA make time critical games. There are others.
>
> Examples, pliss?
>
> 7th Sea. Torg (and coming soon, Torg 2nd ed.), All the White Wolf games
> now. Tribe 8. Heavy Gear. Many, many more (that I can't think of right
> now).
>
> > > Bad examples, Kevin. With both AD&D and Star Wars,
> > the "older events"
> > > take place centuries, if not millenia, prior to
> > current events. Over
> > > that long a time frame, events in the older
> > setting aren't likely to
> > > change anything in the newer one. In, what, 10
> > years(?), that's about
> > > as far as Shadowrun has aged. They CAN'T continue
> > to support 2050
> > > games, because if they did and any discrepancies
> > cropped up, it could
> > > possibly be disastrous (for the setting at least).
> >
> > >
> > Whenever that first sourcebook came out, Street Samurai Catalog, FASA
> made a conscious decision to set if AFTER the rulebook. If they had not
> done that, none of the "time-critical" things you mentioned would have
> mattered. They can continue to support 2050 games if they wanted to.
> They just don't because of a decision made 10 years ago.
>
> You may be right about that (and I can't disprove it), but that was a
> very sound marketing decision. As for me personally, I simply don't see
> the sense of putting out more and more game products set in the year
> 2050 when everything else is set after that.
>
> I think you misunderstood. I meant that if every book after the first had
> been set in the same year, it wouldn't have mattered with the timeline
> stuff.
>
> Hell, there's only so much that can happen in one place in one year. If
> every single Shadowrun product had been set between, say, 2050 to 2052,
> the game would look RIDICULOUS.
>
> Would it? Many games don't change in-game years until a new edition. I
> don't think this really screws with the time that much.
>
> > This point about selling well really isn't valid.
>
> Why not? My point to you is that FASA is doing well with a dynamic game
> system. I think sales are a pretty good measure of that. As far as
> whether the game is good or not, I think it is. Obviously you do as
> well, to a large extent, or you wouldn't be on this list.
>
> Right. But whether a dynamic game system is a good idea or not is my
> point. It seems to be working for FASA, but everyone could turn on it
> shortly. Who knows? The Spice Girls were horribly popular a couple years
> ago. Don't even know where they are now.
>
> > Just because a game sells well doesn't mean that everyone likes it.
> M:tG sells like crack and I hate it. But, according to this argument,
> I'm in the wrong. I don't think so, I just don't like card games. (The
> truth is I never learned how to shuffle. *Sniff*)
>
> Ummm...I can just say one thing here...duh?? If a game is selling like
> Magic, that means a HELL of a lot of people like it. It doesn't mean
> it's a good game, but it means it's a popular game. I personally hate
> Magic too - but it SELLS! No, not everyone likes it - but it seems the
> majority do. I don't even know what you're trying to say here - a game
> that sells well isn't necessarily popular? That just doesn't make
> sense, Mark.
>
> I didn't say popular. I said Good. There's a difference.
>
> > > Oh, and you mentioned that a number of them are very
"time-stable".
> No offense, but HOW ON EARTH is that a good thing???
> > >
> > Because you don't have to buy every damn book that comes out to keep
> up with what the hell's going on, even if it interests you not at all??
>
> Okay, that's a good thing for a GM on a budget. But it a) isn't a good
> thing for a gaming company and b) isn't a good thing as far as the
> development of the game goes.
>
> Btw, if you ARE on a budget, but you have a regular group, why not try
> the team karma pool idea? If you want to get something for the group,
> have everyone chip in a bit. The GM holds onto the book, as he's the
> one who's going to be using it most (probably), but everyone has access
> to it. That way no single person has to bear the brunt of the costs.
>
> Hah hah hah hah hah. This is a nice idea, but falls horribly apart in
> practicality. My little gaming group has to be roped into playing. Of all
> the role -playing books they own, I own them ALL. No one but me GMs, so no
> one else buys the books. I'd like it if they toss in, but they'd all say,
> "It's not important to me. Why should I?" Besides, if the last 10 years of
> my life are an indication, I move every three years. I'd miss the books I
> didn't buy.
Message no. 136
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:50:14 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/1999 11:40:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
arcady@***.net writes:

>
> I had the odd situation last week of having my players complain to me about
> the negotiation scenes. They insisted on haggling a price with the Johnson
> so
> I made them roleplay it. For about 40 minutes... Afterwards they complained
> that I should have just let them make a dice roll... (they weren't happy
> with
> getting "only" 60 thousand nuyen for rescusing a kidnapped girl...)
>
> And in the same discussion I later heard a complaint that people weren't
> staying
> in character and roleplaying enough... :)

A suggestion Arcady if I may??? Go to your local grocery story, visit the
Deli, and buy a BIG block of sharp chedder cheese...Next time your group does
this, or even begins to look like its' going to do this, slice a piece and
hand it to each of them...

-K
Message no. 137
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:38:45 +0200
> But for Tir Na nOg; Palladium has proven to the market that players love
to
> buy munchkin books. After all RIFTS is the number two selling RPG product
on
> the market (behind the White Wolf line).

I thought it was ADND first and Vampire second. I could be wrong,...I have
been wrong before.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 138
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:38:05 -0700
>> I had the odd situation last week of having my players complain to me about
>> the negotiation scenes. They insisted on haggling a price with the Johnson
>> so
>> I made them roleplay it. For about 40 minutes... Afterwards they complained
>> that I should have just let them make a dice roll... (they weren't happy
>> with
>> getting "only" 60 thousand nuyen for rescusing a kidnapped girl...)
>>
>> And in the same discussion I later heard a complaint that people weren't
>> staying
>> in character and roleplaying enough... :)
>
>A suggestion Arcady if I may??? Go to your local grocery story, visit the
>Deli, and buy a BIG block of sharp chedder cheese...Next time your group does
>this, or even begins to look like its' going to do this, slice a piece and
>hand it to each of them...

don't forget the bottle of real cheapass wine

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 139
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:02:02 -0500
> > As I've said, I think everythime they release a book that might hold
> the key to some major event, but they only mention it in that book and
> one rarer than hen's teeth novel, they earn ire from thier customers.
>
> Really? Why? That's how EVERY company that has major events does it. I
> think I'd be more irritated with having to buy multiple books to get
> the entire picture on a large event.
>
Which you currently have to do.

> If you're talking summary books (as you mention below) which come out
> some time after the original books, that's different.
>
That would be nice, but I doubt they'd go for it.

> > >b) isn't a good thing as far as the development of the game goes.
> >
> > It also isn't a bad thing. I'm saying that they need to make the
> setting totally static,
>
> No, but it sure sounded like Mark has been advocating that. And that IS
> a bad thing for game development.
>
I'm not against changing the game. What I'd like to know what the hell is
going on. I don't have this knowledge right now (and I have purchased every
sourcebook ever printed, so it's not for lack of trying).

> > but I do think they need to rerelease older amterial that provides
> background, or print "yearbooks" (Call them part of the Target line,
> ie Target: 2050-2055.) that are mainly reference and some game hooks,
> maybe a sketched adventure and some historically prominant NPCS,
> organizations and gizmos.
> > If the later, they can take 60-80% of thier content from previoulsy
> published materials.
> > Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> > Tengu
>
> Hey, that's not a bad idea. If that's what you mean by supporting the
> older settings, I'd go for that. If I were doing it, I'd probably do
> one book for every two years (depending on how much happened in a
> particular year).
>
> The only question is whether or not it would sell. As I've said so many
> times now, if you want it, you'll have to demonstrate to FASA that it's
> a good idea. And I'll be in on that.
>
> And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
> reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
>
They do. It's called SR3, MitS, Cannon Companion, New Seattle, Corporate
Download, and Man & Machine (which is all that's been printed recently as a
matter of fact). Much of these are reprinted information or expansion on old
books. Of course, what we're discussing here is old World information books.
It would be nice if they would. They could market it as White Wolf has done.
Collecting two or three books into one.
Message no. 140
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:37:42 -0500
> Hmm. Well, I sent this right when my server crashed, so I doubt it will
> get here. If something very similar to this shows up, ignore this one.
>
> > > > > Hell, Twist, why not make it up and submit it
> > to FASA for
> > > publishing?
> > > >
> > > > Because I spend too much time replying to the
> > List? :-)
> > > > -Twist
> > >
> > > *Doc' grins. "Let's make it easier on the poor
> > boy. Twist, GO AWAY."*
> > >
> > You know, this was probably meant in fun, but that sort of attitude
> really sucks. So Twist has some conceptual problems with the game. Does
> that mean he has no right to be on this list? Is this list your
> personal little playground? Do you own it?
> >
> > Opinions are what make this list happen. If everyone agreed with
> everyone, no one would say anything except "Me, too."
>
> Mark, I just have one thing to say. "Get a grip."
>
> That was NOT my attitude and I think even Twist realised that. HE
> didn't complain about that one to me. (He did complain about something
> else, but he had reason to do so, even though it was a
> misunderstanding.)
>
> Well, recently being jumped by GridSec for these types of comments, I'm a
> little sensitive.
>
> Note the **'s. Note how I placed it at the end of my message. If you'd
> read ANY of my previous messages at all, you would have realised that
> means it isn't me, but my evil alter-ego speaking. :)
>
> Notice my use of the phrase, "meant in fun." I am aware of this. That's
> the reason I put that.
>
> Oh, and one last thing - why are you bagging me? As I recall, I'm one
> of the only people who's tried to look at this from both sides (even
> though I disagree with your POV) and had any constructive suggestions
> about how you can get what you want. I'm the NICE guy.
>
> Well, I wasn't intending to "bag" you and I hope you don't take it that
> way. I was merely replying to a long list of anti-Twist messages that had
> been accumulating. Yours was simply the message I chose to respond to.
>
> *Doc' gives Mark an atomic wedgie and runs away...*
>
> *Mark shouts triumphantly, "Ha! I don't wear underwear!"*
Message no. 141
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:48:32 +700
>> But for Tir Na nOg; Palladium has proven to the market that players love to

>> buy munchkin books. After all RIFTS is the number two selling RPG product
on
>> the market (behind the White Wolf line).
>
>I thought it was ADND first and Vampire second. I could be wrong,...I have

>been wrong before.

Used to be. Isn't anymore. TSR was falling fast before WotC bought them. If
they hadn't been bought, they would have probably gone out of business or if
lucky gone through what WEG went through.

Arcady WebRPG Magistrate http://townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 142
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> > Well, I wasn't intending to "bag" you and I hope you don't take it
that way. I was merely replying to a long list of anti-Twist messages
that had been accumulating. Yours was simply the message I chose to
respond to.

Ahhh...then we cool. You just picked a bad example as that ENTIRE post
was a joke. Such is life.

> > *Doc' gives Mark an atomic wedgie and runs away...*
> >
> > *Mark shouts triumphantly, "Ha! I don't wear underwear!"*

*Doc' shrieks and disinfects his hands with sulfuric acid...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 143
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:02:04 -0700 (PDT)
> > > As I've said, I think everythime they release a book that might
hold the key to some major event, but they only mention it in that book
and one rarer than hen's teeth novel, they earn ire from thier
customers.
> >
> > Really? Why? That's how EVERY company that has major events does
it. I think I'd be more irritated with having to buy multiple books to
get the entire picture on a large event.
> >
> Which you currently have to do.

Not always. And I don't mind if it's a one sourcebook, one novel thing.
I'm talking about three or four (or more) sourcebooks just to get the
full picture of an event. That's what it sounded like you were asking
for. Or did you mean have it in one sourcebook, but have the same stuff
referenced to a lesser degree in others?

> > No, but it sure sounded like Mark has been advocating that. And
that IS a bad thing for game development.
> >
> I'm not against changing the game. What I'd like to know what the
hell is going on. I don't have this knowledge right now (and I have
purchased every sourcebook ever printed, so it's not for lack of
trying).

And you're saying you think you don't have the full picture because you
haven't got the novels? Or am I off track?

In any event, if you've got any questions, put them up on the list.
Apart from rule questions, I've got most of the SR universe down pat
and there are certainly others like that.

If you're talking about not having the full picture because FASA keeps
secrets...well, it's Shadowrun. No way around that. :)

> > And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
> >
> They do. It's called SR3, MitS, Cannon Companion, New Seattle,
Corporate Download, and Man & Machine (which is all that's been printed
recently as a matter of fact). Much of these are reprinted information
or expansion on old books.

Don't be a smartass, Mark.

That's MY job.

8-)

> Of course, what we're discussing here is old World information books.
It would be nice if they would. They could market it as White Wolf has
done. Collecting two or three books into one.

Which still doesn't answer my question. WHY don't they do this? After
all, they're not making any money off the old books now. I think
sourcebook collections would sell well. And what about a "best of"
adventure collection? Can you imagine how a book with UB, Harlequin and
Harlequin's Back in it would sell??

*Doc' goes into paroxysms of delight just thinking about it...then
apologises for the mess...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 144
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:17:31 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> *Doc' goes into paroxysms of delight just thinking about it...then
> apologises for the mess...*

Ewww! Get a mop!

John
Message no. 145
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
> > Lone Star info wise is a good choice, but I hear it sold poorly.
Probably because only GMs bought it. Though it makes a good player book
as well if you want to run cops. But I don't think the average
Shadowrun player saw it that way.
>
> But Lone Star had that really cool "top ten resons not to be a perp"

And it was also, IMO, the best and most entertainly written SR
sourcebook with the possible exception of Awakenings.

When I got it, I had this other stuff I HAD to read first - but after
glancing at it I had SUCH a hard time keeping my grubby little paws off
it. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 146
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:24:04 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/99 10:22:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > > Lone Star info wise is a good choice, but I hear it sold poorly.
> Probably because only GMs bought it. Though it makes a good player book
> as well if you want to run cops. But I don't think the average
> Shadowrun player saw it that way.
> >
> > But Lone Star had that really cool "top ten resons not to be a perp"
>
> And it was also, IMO, the best and most entertainly written SR
> sourcebook with the possible exception of Awakenings.
>
> When I got it, I had this other stuff I HAD to read first - but after
> glancing at it I had SUCH a hard time keeping my grubby little paws off
> it. :)
> ==> Doc'


It's odd that the books that sell so poorly (Lone Star is the worst seller
for Shadowrun) tend to inspire such affection. :-)



-Twist
Message no. 147
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:53:22 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > > Lone Star info wise is a good choice, but I hear it sold poorly.
> Probably because only GMs bought it. Though it makes a good player book
> as well if you want to run cops. But I don't think the average
> Shadowrun player saw it that way.
> >
> > But Lone Star had that really cool "top ten resons not to be a perp"
>
> And it was also, IMO, the best and most entertainly written SR
> sourcebook with the possible exception of Awakenings.

That it was...However, I have to wonder WHERE Nigel Findley got most of
that stuff. ESPECIALLY for SWAT/FRT. Seemed odd LS would fund *2* units
doing what seem to be the SAME things. I always go by the rule: This is *LS
ONLY*. KE and others are more sane. Also...on the numbers and roles: I
gotta admit, some of the stuff for that seems odd: why WOULDN'T SWAT
cross-train? I mean, they do IRL (so says a local SWAT officer. Joy for
public-friendly medium-sized town cops.:>). Otherwise, it's great. Mostly.
(I mean, we won't MENTION the Ruger Thunderbolt, arguably one of the most
munchkin-attractive weaps: a BURST-FIRE Heavy Pistol???? Jesus.)

John
Message no. 148
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:08:37 -0700 (PDT)
> > And it was also, IMO, the best and most entertainly written SR
sourcebook with the possible exception of Awakenings.
> >
> > When I got it, I had this other stuff I HAD to read first - but
after glancing at it I had SUCH a hard time keeping my grubby little
paws off it. :)
> > ==> > Doc'
>
> It's odd that the books that sell so poorly (Lone Star is the worst
seller for Shadowrun) tend to inspire such affection. :-)
> -Twist

My theory is that on the whole the better writers don't like writing
toy or rulebooks if they have the option (Awakenings IMO was more an
atmosphere book - a sourcebook for mages - than a rulebook). They
prefer to write books that explore the world in new and fun ways. (Lone
Star, Cyberpirates, etc. etc.)

The rule and toybooks, on the other hand, sell better because of WHAT
they have in them, not because of quality (necessarily). Players as
well as GMs will buy the toybooks, because they want the toys for their
characters. Similar situation with rulebooks.

Whaddyoo think?

Btw, just got MW 3rd yesterday. Looks interesting. :) I haven't read
much of the character creation rules, but so far it looks like a really
good blend of desire and randomisation.

The story was nice too. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 149
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:05:35 -0700 (PDT)
> > And it was also, IMO, the best and most entertainly written SR
sourcebook with the possible exception of Awakenings.
> >
> > When I got it, I had this other stuff I HAD to read first - but
after glancing at it I had SUCH a hard time keeping my grubby little
paws off it. :)
> > ==> > Doc'
>
> It's odd that the books that sell so poorly (Lone Star is the worst
seller for Shadowrun) tend to inspire such affection. :-)
> -Twist

My theory is that on the whole the better writers don't like writing
toy or rulebooks if they have the option (Awakenings IMO was more an
atmosphere book - a sourcebook for mages - than a rulebook). They
prefer to write books that explore the world in new and fun ways. (Lone
Star, Cyberpirates, etc. etc.)

The rule and toybooks, on the other hand, sell better because of WHAT
they have in them, not because of quality (necessarily). Players as
well as GMs will buy the toybooks, because they want the toys for their
characters. Similar situation with rulebooks.

Whaddyoo think?

Btw, just got MW 3rd yesterday. Looks interesting. :) I haven't read
much of the character creation rules, but so far it looks like a really
good blend of desire and randomisation.

The story was nice too. :)

Btw, anyone else notice the similarities in the title format for MW 3rd
and MW 3?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 150
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
> > And it was also, IMO, the best and most entertainly written SR
sourcebook with the possible exception of Awakenings.
>
> That it was...However, I have to wonder WHERE Nigel Findley got most
of that stuff. ESPECIALLY for SWAT/FRT. Seemed odd LS would fund *2*
units doing what seem to be the SAME things.

Well, they aren't exactly the same and their areas of responsibility
are different (although sometimes they overlap). And the explanation of
why it happened is believeable - corporate politics make for strange
bedfellows, etc. etc.

> I always go by the rule: This is *LS ONLY*. KE and others are more
sane.

I don't know about SANE, but it IS a LS only thing.

> Also...on the numbers and roles: I gotta admit, some of the stuff for
that seems odd: why WOULDN'T SWAT cross-train? I mean, they do IRL (so
says a local SWAT officer. Joy for public-friendly medium-sized town
cops.:>).

Well, I pretty much disregard that as far as characters go. For NPCs,
it doesn't really make that much difference usually.

I think it's PROBABLY a cost thing. It costs more to give 12 guys Wired
Reflexes 1 and Smartlinks than 8 guys WR1 and 4 guys Smartlinks.
Y'know? And there ARE benefits to specialisation.

You have to remember, Lone Star SWAT isn't necessarily a direct
descendant of the current, public SWAT teams (although it could be -
can't remember), so there's no guarantees they'd work the same way.
Hell, even if they ARE a direct descendant, policies and tactics might
change in 55 years.

> Otherwise, it's great. Mostly. (I mean, we won't MENTION the Ruger
Thunderbolt, arguably one of the most munchkin-attractive weaps: a
BURST-FIRE Heavy Pistol???? Jesus.)
> John

Yes, but by its very nature it's...well, not munchkin-proof, but
munchkin-deterring. Look at it this way. Munchie carries round his
Thunderbolt and uses all the time. He'll soon be attracting a LOT of LS
attention, won't he? Maybe even enough to go some way to convincing him
that munching ain't always the best idea.

Anyway, I've got 2 words for you, John:

Ares Viper

8-)

*Doc' wonders if it would be considered inappropriate to enter a
defacto relationship with his gun...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 151
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
> >think I'd be more irritated with having to buy multiple books to get
the entire picture on a large event.
>
> That is what I'm talking about, I just really screwed up the
wording. I would love to be able to buy EVERY suppliment and novel,
and have the time to read them, but who does? (That is a retiorical
question. Anyone answering in the affermative will be thwapped, but I
prefeer celocanth to carp. And for those that don't know, a celocanth
is a big, prehistoric, heavily armoued fish that was thought to be
extinct until about the '40s IIRC. It is the differnce between a size
4 work glove and a size 12, plate-and-mail gauntlet.)

Actually...

8-)

No, seriously, I can afford them all and I do have the time to read
them all (although the "to-read" pile by my bed is growing as I'm
concentrating on my writing atm). Then again, I don't have a lot of
additional expenses.

> >Do You Yahoo!?
>
> Only under the full moon or when the hot water runs out in the
shower. <g>
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel
> Tengu

Sorry, Kevin, I was wrong.

You SERIOUSLY need IMMEDIATE help...

8-)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 152
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:58:55 +0200
> (I mean, we won't MENTION the Ruger Thunderbolt, arguably one of the most
> munchkin-attractive weaps: a BURST-FIRE Heavy Pistol???? Jesus.)

Oh really? *smirk* Could someone post the stats for this weapon?

Munchins-R-US

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 153
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:24:14 -0500
> At 19.33 08-17-99 CST, you wrote:
> >Out of curiosity CR, what do you think of the Target books???
>
> Of what I've read? And I should warn you, it isn't very much, so
> they
> could actually be what I'm looking for.
>
> First off, I think the new art, well, sucks. Some of it is good,
> but a
> lot of it is too... Something. Don't precisely know how to describe it,
> it just doesn't look quite right fro SR. And that is across the board,
> not
> just the Target line, for most of the books since Bug City have been too
> angler, dark and distorted for the interior art, and covers and plates
> have
> largely been just "ewwww", but that is just me. (Although I like the CFS
> cover.)
>
Really? I've found recent art to be more campy of late (although you can't
diss the cover of SR3). Bergting is still good, but some of the other
artists are stressing the fantastic elements more than the day-to-day
aspects of SR. There's more elves, magic, and weird powers flying through
the air. Not so much the basic "killers with an attitude" look that the old
pics had.

>
Message no. 154
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:30:45 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/1999 3:39:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dvixen@****.com writes:

> >A suggestion Arcady if I may??? Go to your local grocery story, visit the
> >Deli, and buy a BIG block of sharp chedder cheese...Next time your group
> does
> >this, or even begins to look like its' going to do this, slice a piece
and
> >hand it to each of them...
>
> don't forget the bottle of real cheapass wine

Of course...(<slaps self for momentary lapses>)...and just to help, those can
be found usually either across the aisle or two rows away....

-K
Message no. 155
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:35:15 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/1999 4:45:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
markf@******.com writes:

>
> > *Doc' gives Mark an atomic wedgie and runs away...*
> >
> > *Mark shouts triumphantly, "Ha! I don't wear underwear!"*

K calmly points out to Mark something with the statement ... "then consider
what it is he may have slipped you in lue of that fact???"
Message no. 156
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:43:20 -0400
At 22.39 08-18-99 -0700, you wrote:
>You have to remember, Lone Star SWAT isn't necessarily a direct
>descendant of the current, public SWAT teams (although it could be -

TANK POLICE!!!!!!!!

(Yes, Doc is right, I do need help. My mind ran away with the dish and
the spoon, and as sent me a note saying it will not come back until a cow
goes to the moon.)


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 157
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:43:32 -0400
At 22.53 08-18-99 -0700, you wrote:
>(I mean, we won't MENTION the Ruger Thunderbolt, arguably one of the most
>munchkin-attractive weaps: a BURST-FIRE Heavy Pistol???? Jesus.)

Stats wise, how is the Thunderbolt any different than a Savalette
Gaurdian? Both heavy pistols, both burst capable.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 158
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:43:26 -0400
IronRaven wrote:

> At 22.39 08-18-99 -0700, you wrote:
> >You have to remember, Lone Star SWAT isn't necessarily a direct
> >descendant of the current, public SWAT teams (although it could be -
>
> TANK POLICE!!!!!!!!
>

(Images of Dominion Tank Police vs. shadowrunners flicker in the back of Wildfire's
mind...Shadowrunners geeting hold of Bonaparte...)

AAARGGGGHHHHH!!!! YES!!!!

**Now you've done it. Do you know how long it takes to drag her mind out of
anime/shadowrun crossover world? Nearly as long as it does to get it out of
StarWars/Shadowrun crossover land.. Sheesh...**

But there could be a TON of damage, and they'd have their very own headquarters...

WHACK!

**She'll wake up later feelng much better**
Message no. 159
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:07:02 -0500
> > > > As I've said, I think everythime they release a book that might
> hold the key to some major event, but they only mention it in that book
> and one rarer than hen's teeth novel, they earn ire from thier
> customers.
> > >
> > > Really? Why? That's how EVERY company that has major events does
> it. I think I'd be more irritated with having to buy multiple books to
> get the entire picture on a large event.
> > >
> > Which you currently have to do.
>
> Not always. And I don't mind if it's a one sourcebook, one novel thing.
> I'm talking about three or four (or more) sourcebooks just to get the
> full picture of an event. That's what it sounded like you were asking
> for. Or did you mean have it in one sourcebook, but have the same stuff
> referenced to a lesser degree in others?
>
Um, me or him? I'm confused as to who this was aimed at. But I'll answer
anyway. I'd like whatever plot to be contained to sourcebooks. I don't mind
adventures dealing with the events surrounding the situation, but I think
the plot should at least be outlined in a sourcebook of some kind. RAS
springs to mind. I don't own this adventure (don't plan to - never buy 'em).
I'm left with vague references in Corp Download as to what is going on. As
far as I'm concerned, the first reference to this was in SR3, no middle
details, and a sort of "well, all wrapped up now" type of comment in Corp
Download. That's not very helpful.

> > > No, but it sure sounded like Mark has been advocating that. And
> that IS a bad thing for game development.
> > >
> > I'm not against changing the game. What I'd like to know what the
> hell is going on. I don't have this knowledge right now (and I have
> purchased every sourcebook ever printed, so it's not for lack of
> trying).
>
> And you're saying you think you don't have the full picture because you
> haven't got the novels? Or am I off track?
>
Novels, adventures, little buttons, all the Cards, whatever.

> In any event, if you've got any questions, put them up on the list.
> Apart from rule questions, I've got most of the SR universe down pat
> and there are certainly others like that.
>
> If you're talking about not having the full picture because FASA keeps
> secrets...well, it's Shadowrun. No way around that. :)
>
Don't I know it. See comments above for the latest example. I normally don't
have a problem with them. Aztech wrapped up a lot of IE stuff for me (enough
to have a much less vague clue anyway). It's when plots are mentioned,
skipped in the sourcebooks, and then comments are made in later sourcebooks
referring to them that tick me off. My gaming dollar is stretched as it is -
I can't afford novels AND adventures just to follow the plot.

> > > And, of course, EVERYONE would like to see some of the older books
> reprinted. Can anyone tell me why FASA doesn't do that?
> > >
> > They do. It's called SR3, MitS, Cannon Companion, New Seattle,
> Corporate Download, and Man & Machine (which is all that's been printed
> recently as a matter of fact). Much of these are reprinted information
> or expansion on old books.
>
> Don't be a smartass, Mark.
>
> That's MY job.
>
> 8-)
>
But I do it better ;)
Message no. 160
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:21:17 -0500
> > > *Doc' gives Mark an atomic wedgie and runs away...*
> > >
> > > *Mark shouts triumphantly, "Ha! I don't wear underwear!"*
>
> K calmly points out to Mark something with the statement ... "then
> consider
> what it is he may have slipped you in lue of that fact???"
>
*Mark lays in the corner shivering*
Message no. 161
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:35:03 EDT
In a message dated 8/19/99 11:12:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cyberraven@********.net writes:

> TANK POLICE!!!!!!!!
>
> (Yes, Doc is right, I do need help. My mind ran away with the dish and
> the spoon, and as sent me a note saying it will not come back until a cow
> goes to the moon.)

Worse, its not even original... I mentioned this one a couple of months ago.
Though If I brought something like the Tank Police into the game, I'd go for
Yuks as well... From a gun loving precint captain down to the newest member
having an unhealthy fixation on her darling "Bonaparte"
Message no. 162
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:47:46 -0400
At 00.35 08-20-99 EDT, you wrote:
>Worse, its not even original... I mentioned this one a couple of months
ago.

Well, the only time I've seen it was the last I brought it up.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 163
From: Airwasp@***.com Airwasp@***.com
Subject: SR Narrowing of focus
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 18:57:47 EDT
In a message dated 8/18/99 3:21:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> > I had the odd situation last week of having my players complain to me
> about
> > the negotiation scenes. They insisted on haggling a price with the
> Johnson
> > so
> > I made them roleplay it. For about 40 minutes... Afterwards they
> complained
> > that I should have just let them make a dice roll... (they weren't
happy
> > with
> > getting "only" 60 thousand nuyen for rescusing a kidnapped girl...)
> >
> > And in the same discussion I later heard a complaint that people
weren't
> > staying
> > in character and roleplaying enough... :)
>
> A suggestion Arcady if I may??? Go to your local grocery story, visit the
> Deli, and buy a BIG block of sharp chedder cheese...Next time your group
> does
> this, or even begins to look like its' going to do this, slice a piece and
> hand it to each of them...

Don't forget to give them the cheese with a cracker or two just do go along
with their 'wine.'

And on the flip side, should your players actually make that comment.
conisder the comment as being made in character and have the Johnson (or
whomever) just up and end the run on the spot, then go ahead and inform the
players to take their player's rep rating and slice it by 100 points or more.
Feel free to make them take the hit for being so callous, especially when it
comes to a child's kidnapping.

-Mike B.

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