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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:17:52 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Fri, 5 May 2000, Carsten Gehling wrote:

> From: NaCl(aq) <jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 12:44 AM
>
>
> > No problem. .. what language are programs written in in SR? So if I wanted
> to
> > make something like this for my decker to upload to an LTG somewhere, I
> would
> > know what it could and couldn't do. On a more general note, I've heard a
> rumor
> > or two about matrix book(s) coming out. Will these go into more detail on
> > programming electronics, programs, and chips? Or would telling me give
> away too
> > much cool information? :)
>
> A long time ago I read in one of the books that programs were written in
> some sort of symbolic code language. IMHO looking at the recent development
> of quantum computing, I believe the next-generation computer used in the
> Shadowrun universe must be the Quantum Computer. Given the nature of this
> type of computing could explain why storage is measured in pulses. You would
> also need a f*cking fast processor to simulate the neural impulses that
> create the Matrix.

It doesn't have to be that long time ago. It is in the third edition
rulebook. In the gear section under programs. There is a reference to
one or perhaps to programming languages, one being HoloLISP O;-) Old
programming languages don't die, they just evolve O;-) I can't give the
page reference as my book is at home and I'm not.

I don't think the quantum computers is what powers the Shadowrun
Matrix. More likely it is optical computing. Well that's what they wrote
at some point in time anyway.

There are different kind of "new" computers ready to replace our old
IC-based:
1: Biological.
2: Quantum.
and as of SR
3: Optical.

I honestly have no idea what the progess in biological computing is, but
it is an interesting idea I must say.

The quantum computer is "up-and-coming" no doubt about that, it might
even be that at some point in time they replace the current computer
force, due to efficiency. Just imagine; old problems not solvable by our
days computers due to time constraints can be solved in less than a
heartbeat on a quantum computer. But quantum computing was pure SciFi in
'89.

So I think FASA just chose the optical computer as the next step in
evolution. And a pulse is just that, one optical pulse O;-)

>
> The languages? Well certainly not VBScript! :-) Ranging from high-level
> common user prog-lang (drag/drop symbolic components and setting up rules
> and actions) to low-level hardcore decker tools:
>
> "copy con >neural_interface"

Hey! this could be cool.

while(true) {0101} >> /Mistsuhama/Executive/ICE-System/Secret/BlackICE01

(I know it's not a proper shell-script, but close enough)

>
> An interesting real-life notion: If you really want to create a virus that
> could hit all platforms, shouldn't it be written in Java?
>

--SDS--
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 2
From: Steadfast steadfast@***.at
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:52:58 +0200
> I don't think the quantum computers is what powers the Shadowrun
> Matrix. More likely it is optical computing. Well that's what they wrote
> at some point in time anyway.

Actually AFAIK the Computerchips or many parts of the Deck are Biological
parts. How they do it, or from were those are actually taken eludes me, but
to keep theCorporate West clean they are NOT taken from living subjects ;o)
I guess I read it in Shadowtech somethere, but VR2 doesn't seem to get in to
that IIRC.

--- You, stay cool. If we all stay cool, nobody needs to be shot in the
head ---
Message no. 3
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:49:11 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Fri, 5 May 2000, Steadfast wrote:

> Actually AFAIK the Computerchips or many parts of the Deck are Biological
> parts. How they do it, or from were those are actually taken eludes me, but
> to keep theCorporate West clean they are NOT taken from living subjects ;o)
> I guess I read it in Shadowtech somethere, but VR2 doesn't seem to get in to
> that IIRC.

Hmm.. That I can't remember to have read anywhere. I'm >fairly< sure
that all chips are defined as being optical. I have to really try to
remember to look that up when I get home.
>
> --- You, stay cool. If we all stay cool, nobody needs to be shot in the
> head ---
>
Okay.. I'm cool then, how about you O;-)

--SDS--
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 4
From: David Yellope yelloped@********.net
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 04:05:12 -0400
On Fri, 5 May 2000 09:49:11 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time), you
wrote:


>Hmm.. That I can't remember to have read anywhere. I'm >fairly< sure
>that all chips are defined as being optical. I have to really try to
>remember to look that up when I get home.
>>


Nope they're a form of protein, much quicker then optical, it's
mentioned that in 40 years or so, the protein will die out, so you'd
need to get a new memory chip then
There is No Lumber Cartel..And I am NOT Member #01538

(L5R2.1)UN:+ S- G+ Y+ D- O+ EJ+ I+++ Sc(32) C E++ !M T D++ K++ H-- Tk IC++ U+
Message no. 5
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:38:42 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Fri, 5 May 2000, Marc Renouf wrote:
> On Fri, 5 May 2000, Carsten Gehling wrote:
>
> > An interesting real-life notion: If you really want to create a virus that
> > could hit all platforms, shouldn't it be written in Java?
>
> It should, but Sun Microsystems was *extremely* careful when they
> wrote Java, as well as its platform-dependent byte-code interpreters.
> There are a lot of things that Applets generally can't do (like access the
> local filesystem). Java uses the "sandbox" approach. The applet is
> allowed to play in the sandbox all it wants, but the sandbox doesn't
> interface with the stuff that actually matters (operating system, file
> system, etc). Further, Java loads class information locally first, so you
> can't even use the classic "standard class overwrite" trick.
>
Yes, if you want to use applets that is true. But if you somehow manage
to get a java class into a system and run it locally, well then you have
full access to, i.e. the filesystem. Actually I've spent a bit of time
wondering why no virus'es have been written in java so far, and the only
answer I can come up with is that you have to somehow get it executed
locally on the machine(s) you want to target and that it is a bit harder
to actually do this without user interaction, i.e. "executing" the
java. Windows scripting is so much better at doing this.
Until this becomes feasable (if it already isn't, and I'm not aware of
it) you will have to settle for Java-Trojan Horses O;-)

I think we're drifting again..

--SDS--
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 6
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 12:48:11 -0400
> There are different kind of "new" computers ready to replace our old
> IC-based:
> 1: Biological.
> 2: Quantum.
> and as of SR
> 3: Optical.
>
> So I think FASA just chose the optical computer as the next step in
> evolution. And a pulse is just that, one optical pulse O;-)

You left out nanocomputing, in which the chips are build from the ground up
on a molecular or even atomic scale. An entire SGI workstation could fit on
the head of a pin. People have already managed to build a single molecular
logic gateway. Now they just have to figure out how to string a lot of them
together.

The impression I get is that SR computers run on optical or hybrid
optical/electronic technology. Why they use pulses instead of bits/bytes is
beyond me. Saying it is one optical pulse doesn't mean much without some
kind of definition of how much data one "pulse" transmits.

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."
Message no. 7
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-) )
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:14:21 -0400 (EDT)
Peter Kristiansen <sds@**.auc.dk> writes:
> On Fri, 5 May 2000, Marc Renouf wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 May 2000, Carsten Gehling wrote:
> >
> > > An interesting real-life notion: If you really want to create a virus that
> > > could hit all platforms, shouldn't it be written in Java?

Hah. I just wrote some java code today, the gist goes like this:

loadFiles();
if (images aren't there) {
loadFilesTheNetscapeWayBecauseItHasABug();
}
if (images still aren't there) {
errorMessage();
}

Right now, LISP, PERL, and Python (three languages off the top
of my head) are more platform independent than Java. Too many
system-dependent bugs. Someone took the Java Machine, and proved that
the code was safe. The bugs are introduced in the individual
implementations of the Java Machine. I expect this problem to be much
less prevalent soon.

> > [Marc says that applets are pretty secure]

> Yes, if you want to use applets that is true. But if you somehow manage
> to get a java class into a system and run it locally, well then you have
> full access to, i.e. the filesystem.

If you managed to get a java class into a system running an applet
viewer less than 2 years old and are able to run it as an application,
you almost definitely had access to the filesystem before (i.e., it
doesn't matter what virus you install, it's easy at this point).

> Actually I've spent a bit of time
> wondering why no virus'es have been written in java so far[snip]

You need a full java interpreter in order to run a java
'virus', and the vast majority of java you'll see spread around are
applets, which can't really spread.
People don't fall for trojans as often as they used to, unless
they run Outlook.

> I think we're drifting again..

Oops. Oh yeah... Religious differences aside, there's not a
huge amount of difference between LISP, Java, PERL, and Python. I
haven't seen Gurth's programming language stuff, but IMHO there
shouldn't be too much difference in game terms between most of the
mid-level languages, and between most of the high-level languages.
LISP and PERL seem to be more stable due to their age, and Python just
has a great name, while Java is the most aesthetically pleasing to me
(and arguably the most marketable). :) By SR, I'd say they'd be
pretty close to identical in effect.
Having said that, my experience is that the PERL evangelists
yell the loudest, therefore making PERL the best language. It's a lot
like emacs that way.

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-) )
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:30:58 +0200
According to Mark A Shieh, at 18:14 on 5 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Oops. Oh yeah... Religious differences aside, there's not a
> huge amount of difference between LISP, Java, PERL, and Python. I
> haven't seen Gurth's programming language stuff

It's not mine, it's Todd Montgomery's :)

> but IMHO there shouldn't be too much difference in game terms between
> most of the mid-level languages, and between most of the high-level
> languages.

The way the rules in NERPS: ShadowLore work, is each language is given a
level, which lowers the TN of the Computer skill test made to program a
cyberdeck utility. As the author only included level 1 and level 2
languages for Matrix programming, their impact won't be all that big,
IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 17:51:17 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Fri, 5 May 2000, Edward Huyer wrote:

[SNIP]
> > So I think FASA just chose the optical computer as the next step in
> > evolution. And a pulse is just that, one optical pulse O;-)
>
> You left out nanocomputing, in which the chips are build from the ground up
> on a molecular or even atomic scale.
[SNIP]

Oh, yeah, you are right, I totally forgot about those, actually they
would probably be the ones I would bet on along with quantum
computing. (only problem is the prevalence of the IC today. It will cost
a "!#€@£"#€ of ££$$ to replace them).

>
> The impression I get is that SR computers run on optical or hybrid
> optical/electronic technology. Why they use pulses instead of bits/bytes is
> beyond me. Saying it is one optical pulse doesn't mean much without some
> kind of definition of how much data one "pulse" transmits.
>
I agree with your impression, mainly optical. Ofcourse I forgot to check
but I'm nearly 100% sure that I have read it somewhere.

Why they don't use bits and bytes?? Easy (to me) answer. They didn't
want to bee caught by the technology curve. Have you read Dark
Conspiracy?? It's supposed to be in the early 2K if my memory serves me
right, and the real kick ass computers are something akind to 486 or 586
with I think it is 8-32 MB of memory. Cyberpunk did the same as
Shadowrun. They have the Memory Unit.

Lets not try to define the MP please. Make a search on the web
instead. I've found some who tried to define it.

Good Hunting

--SDS--
>>Shadowrun Geek Code temporarily unavailable<<
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 19:36:06 +0200
According to Peter Kristiansen, at 17:51 on 6 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> > The impression I get is that SR computers run on optical or hybrid
> > optical/electronic technology. Why they use pulses instead of bits/bytes is
> > beyond me. Saying it is one optical pulse doesn't mean much without some
> > kind of definition of how much data one "pulse" transmits.
> >
> I agree with your impression, mainly optical. Ofcourse I forgot to check
> but I'm nearly 100% sure that I have read it somewhere.

Probably Shadowtech, which has a fairly large section devoted to
explaining chip tech in the 2050s.

> Why they don't use bits and bytes?? Easy (to me) answer. They didn't
> want to bee caught by the technology curve. Have you read Dark
> Conspiracy?? It's supposed to be in the early 2K if my memory serves me
> right, and the real kick ass computers are something akind to 486 or 586
> with I think it is 8-32 MB of memory. Cyberpunk did the same as
> Shadowrun. They have the Memory Unit.

Agreed. Using actual measures for computers in SF games will quickly make
you look silly when reality catches up with you.

> Lets not try to define the MP please. Make a search on the web
> instead. I've found some who tried to define it.

The problem with defining it is, if you ask me, that it should on the one
hand be the same as a megabyte today (according to Shadowtech, the opticla
chips have two states, so I'm assuming from that, that one pulse is the
same as one bit IRL), while on the other hand that makes comments like "17
Mp deleted" in sourcebooks look a bit ridiculous -- the poster must have
had FAR too much time on his/her/its hands :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Edward Huyer arcanum@*****.com
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 13:39:08 -0400
> > You left out nanocomputing, in which the chips are build from the ground
up
> > on a molecular or even atomic scale.
> [SNIP]
>
> Oh, yeah, you are right, I totally forgot about those, actually they
> would probably be the ones I would bet on along with quantum
> computing. (only problem is the prevalence of the IC today. It will cost
> a "!#€@£"#€ of ££$$ to replace them).

One of the advantages of nanocomputers. They still work on basically the
same principles as our current tech, so converting over shouldn't be as
painful as converting to quantum. My current future-tech roadmap has
nanocomputers in the next 20 years, then quantum computers some time after
that. I'm doubtful of whether optical and biocomputers will ever be good
for general purpose use.

Arcanum
Edward Huyer
arcanum@*****.com
ICQ# 1667646
-----
"There is no spoon."

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: NEWSHADOW@***.com NEWSHADOW@***.com
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:34:49 EDT
In a message dated 5/6/00 10:34:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> The problem with defining it is, if you ask me, that it should on the one
> hand be the same as a megabyte today (according to Shadowtech, the optical
> chips have two states, so I'm assuming from that, that one pulse is the
> same as one bit IRL), while on the other hand that makes comments like "17
> Mp deleted" in sourcebooks look a bit ridiculous -- the poster must have
> had FAR too much time on his/her/its hands :)

I've always assumed that the reason the posts took up so many Mp's is because
text isn't the only thing included in the post. Things such as customized
sig's, that we can't see because we're using old fashioned hard copy to read,
are perhaps more a kin to graphics than to text. YMMV

-NewShadow
http://members.xoom.com/NewShadow
Message no. 13
From: Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Subject: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00 :-))
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 11:32:40 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: <NEWSHADOW@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: SR program languages (was: Re: Not the Crash of '29 but '00
:-))


> In a message dated 5/6/00 10:34:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
gurth@******.nl
> writes:
>
> > The problem with defining it is, if you ask me, that it should on the
one
> > hand be the same as a megabyte today (according to Shadowtech, the
optical
> > chips have two states, so I'm assuming from that, that one pulse is the
> > same as one bit IRL), while on the other hand that makes comments like
"17
> > Mp deleted" in sourcebooks look a bit ridiculous -- the poster must
have
> > had FAR too much time on his/her/its hands :)
>
> I've always assumed that the reason the posts took up so many Mp's is
because
> text isn't the only thing included in the post. Things such as customized
> sig's, that we can't see because we're using old fashioned hard copy to
read,
> are perhaps more a kin to graphics than to text. YMMV

I've also assumed that we only get the text, where as the actual SR-file,
would include text, sound and pictures. So nobody (or very few) actually
types these texts, they just speak (or even think), and the SR-computers
records it and duimp it into the file. That mens you don't have to type
capital letters to SHOUT, you just simply shout at the computer.

Lars
--
The solution to many problems lies in having somebody else do the work.
[Andrew S. Tanenbaum]
--
Lars Wagner Hansen mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Jagtvej 11 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
DK-4180 Sorø phone +45 5783 5950
Denmark

Further Reading

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Thwap!