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From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Fri, 2 Jun 1995 16:52:39 +0100

Message no. 1 On Fri, 2 Jun 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> I think that a pure CP game is pretty boring. CP2020 does a good job of
> proving that. Magic is what gives SR the extra kick, and to be honest the
> excellent magic system is one of the main reasons why I play SR.
This is the second posting I've read praising the SR magic system and its
basis of explanation -but to be honest I don't think it is that good.
Firstly I don't like how a mage can just choose a Hodge podge of spells,
I feel there should be some theme for a mage's learned spells. This theme
does not necessarily have to be Combat spells, Manipulation spells, etc,
but instead more fundamental ideas like creation of matter, control of
energy, manipulations of auras, resonating auras with the physical
counterpart so that what happens to one reflects in the other. I gather
that a similar thing is used in Ars Margica although I've never played
it, but I have played Mage:The Ascension and loved that magic system.

In terms of game mechanics the SR system works well, but there seems to
be various rules put in purely for game balance and whilst this is okay
FASA don't try to give reasons for this, or if they do they aren't
totally convincing. Two examples of this are why can't spells be cast
with a Clairvoyance spell acting as the sight of the magician? And
another is that question under discussion about grounding, if an area
effect combat spell only grounds through one target how can it target
others who aren't dual beings at the time? Now FASA have tried to explain
this with the "need for a bridge between the astral and physical", but
this would seem to me to really imply that the astral energy grounds
through the initial target and then becomes purely physical (more like a
damaging manipulation spell) when in fact the spell radiates out in
astral and then grounds through the other targets. Now if the "bridge" is
just needed as a benchmark so the astral mage can calibrate his spell to
ground out then that is okay. Normally the mage has his own physical body
and *perceptions* to instinctively calibrate the spell to ground into the
same plane of existance, but when a mage is totally astral he needs
another dual being to measure the difference between the physical and
astral and thus allow the spell to ground.

Also. why did FASA not allow Sorceror and Conjuror adepts to go astral?
Is it because the mages do not have the required knowledge to enter a
place which is a combination of both spell energy and spirit energy? Or
was it a game balance thing? Personally I think this is unfair because it
means Conjuror adept initiates cannot summon Great Forms, and thus they
are inferior conjurors to full blown mages when they are actually
supposed to be as good. And does it also mean that Sorceror adepts can't
Centre as this requires an instance of astral perception?

Sorry to waffle on but I don't particularly feel the SR magic system is
wonderful (though the reasons for its re-emergence IS nice).

Just one last thought, shouldn't it be easier for a mage to learn a Power
Missile if he already knows Power Bolt?

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Sat, 3 Jun 1995 12:19:35 +0200

Message no. 2 >Just one last thought, shouldn't it be easier for a mage to learn a Power
>Missile if he already knows Power Bolt?

That's almost the same question as "Should a magician have an easier time
learning a spell if he already knows it at a lower Force?" IMHO, yes, at
least as far as the different Force ratings are concerned. Maybe it would
also apply if two spells have nearly similar effects (like Levitate Person
and Levitate Object), but I'd apply a modifier to the TN for learning the
spell. I'm thinking of thinking about it :)

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
the trouble with victims is that they have relatives
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Sun, 4 Jun 1995 17:03:50 +0200

Message no. 3 > > I think that a pure CP game is pretty boring. CP2020 does a good job of
> > proving that. Magic is what gives SR the extra kick, and to be honest the
> > excellent magic system is one of the main reasons why I play SR.

> This is the second posting I've read praising the SR magic system and its
> basis of explanation -but to be honest I don't think it is that good.
> Firstly I don't like how a mage can just choose a Hodge podge of spells,
> I feel there should be some theme for a mage's learned spells. This theme
> does not necessarily have to be Combat spells, Manipulation spells, etc,
> but instead more fundamental ideas like creation of matter, control of
> energy, manipulations of auras, resonating auras with the physical
> counterpart so that what happens to one reflects in the other. I gather
> that a similar thing is used in Ars Margica although I've never played
> it, but I have played Mage:The Ascension and loved that magic system.

I have some experience with Ars Magica and I agree that its magic
system is not bad. Its pretty good actually, much better than most of the
stuff you get out there. But SR's magic is way better - its more straight
forward (something that can be said for the whole system) and yet it
manages to remain interesting.

> In terms of game mechanics the SR system works well, but there seems to
> be various rules put in purely for game balance and whilst this is okay
> FASA don't try to give reasons for this, or if they do they aren't
> totally convincing.

Well, we live in an imperfect world so what did you expect. Nevertheless
FASA has the most solid background I have ever seen. I agree that there
is the ocasional slip-up (even though most of them can be explained away
with WYTIWYG), but still compared to other game systems SR's magic is
perfect.

> Two examples of this are why can't spells be cast
> with a Clairvoyance spell acting as the sight of the magician? And
> another is that question under discussion about grounding, if an area
> effect combat spell only grounds through one target how can it target
> others who aren't dual beings at the time? Now FASA have tried to explain
> this with the "need for a bridge between the astral and physical", but
> this would seem to me to really imply that the astral energy grounds
> through the initial target and then becomes purely physical (more like a
> damaging manipulation spell) when in fact the spell radiates out in
> astral and then grounds through the other targets.

What makes you think that a magician should be able to cast with
the help of a magically generated image in the first place ?
Anyway to answer your other question, I think that its only a matter
of perspective. From a WYTIWYG POV there is no problem whatsoever,
the caster belives that he can ground through someone with a combat
spell and he knows that if its an area of effect spell it'll hit everyone
in the vimcinity and so it happens. OTOH you could go for a more
bland solution and just say that in order to ground a spell it has to
be a damaging manipulation and not a combat spell. This is a simple
and straightforwatd fix. OR if you dont want want to go that far
you can always interpret the rules Bob's way, the "grounding gate"
gets full damage (spell+elemental effects), but the rest get only
the elemental damge (wich is totally physical after all).

> Also. why did FASA not allow Sorceror and Conjuror adepts to go astral?
> Is it because the mages do not have the required knowledge to enter a
> place which is a combination of both spell energy and spirit energy? Or
> was it a game balance thing? Personally I think this is unfair because it
> means Conjuror adept initiates cannot summon Great Forms, and thus they
> are inferior conjurors to full blown mages when they are actually
> supposed to be as good. And does it also mean that Sorceror adepts can't
> Centre as this requires an instance of astral perception?

Once again my first argument is WYTIWYG. If you have a copy of the
NAGM you already know that FASA dismisses psionics as a case of
self-imposed mental blocks. So called psionicists want so hard to believe
that they are nothing more than simple psionicists that they do not allow
themselves to do anything more than the usual psi stuff. The same could be
said for sorcerers and conjurors. As for it being a game balance thingy
well I agree (boy I never though I'd hear me say that :) it largely is
a game balance ruling. But its a good one, full magicians loose a *lot*
by paying priority A for magic, and adepts can get prety strong by
allocating that first priority to something else. So I think that
its a good thing on the whole. As for sorcerers and centering, I
dont see why not. After all they can cast spells and that requires
a bit of aura cynchronisation too no ?

> Just one last thought, shouldn't it be easier for a mage to learn a Power
> Missile if he already knows Power Bolt?

It depends, we had a long discussion about low-essence types and
magic a few weeks ago. Some people used the healing rule as a precident
to prove that all magic should have a hard time hitting them. But we
managed to persuade them that this is not the case, healing cybered
individuals is harder because the magician has to heal a body that
no longer is the body it should be - and not because the lack of
essence imposes any difficulties. Anyway what I am trying to say is
that the spell-learning question is just a POV question just as
the essence/magic question. Try to understand the basics of the magic
system and you'll come up with a logical solution for it.

--
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From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Sun, 4 Jun 1995 18:46:14 +0100

Message no. 4 On Sun, 4 Jun 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > Firstly I don't like how a mage can just choose a Hodge podge of spells,
> > I feel there should be some theme for a mage's learned spells. This theme
> > does not necessarily have to be Combat spells, Manipulation spells, etc,
> > but instead more fundamental ideas like creation of matter, control of
> > energy, manipulations of auras, resonating auras with the physical
> > counterpart so that what happens to one reflects in the other. I gather
> > that a similar thing is used in Ars Margica although I've never played
> > it, but I have played Mage:The Ascension and loved that magic system.
>
> I have some experience with Ars Magica and I agree that its magic
> system is not bad. Its pretty good actually, much better than most of the
> stuff you get out there. But SR's magic is way better - its more straight
> forward (something that can be said for the whole system) and yet it
> manages to remain interesting.
I don't dispute that SRs system is straightforward, game mechanics wise
its really good, and yes there are a lot of interesting spells out there;
its just I'd like to see a theme, or underlying principle to the
collection of Spells a Mage knows. I guess my perceptions are coloured by
WWGS's Mage:The Ascension where a Mage who studies the sphere of Forces
can use that knowledge to 'cast spells' like FireBall (Kinetic Forces
increased in molecules to the point of combustion) and Lightning Bolt
(electrical forces) but also to spell like Darksight (able to perceive
the Infra Red forces), this leads to a variety of seemingly unrelated
spells which do have a commonality. Now maybe SR magic does have this
commonality as well, but FASA don't explain it -and that is my gripe.

> > In terms of game mechanics the SR system works well, but there seems to
> > be various rules put in purely for game balance and whilst this is okay
> > FASA don't try to give reasons for this, or if they do they aren't
> > totally convincing.
>
> Well, we live in an imperfect world so what did you expect. Nevertheless
> FASA has the most solid background I have ever seen.
Background in terms of history -yes. But background in terms of
explaining *why* magic works I believe could do with a bit of work.

> I agree that there
> is the ocasional slip-up (even though most of them can be explained away
> with WYTIWYG),
WYTIWYG? If this means what you think is what you get, then my whole
point is that yes I probably could fill in FASA's gaps but I shouldn't
have to. I don't know how you're using the acronym WYTIWYG (or even if I
have interpreted it correctly) so please correct me if I have
misinterpretted you.

> but still compared to other game systems SR's magic is perfect.
The *game* system yes, but not the magic explanations I fear.

> > Two examples of this are why can't spells be cast
> > with a Clairvoyance spell acting as the sight of the magician? And
>
> What makes you think that a magician should be able to cast with
> the help of a magically generated image in the first place ?
Ah this is how your interpretation of how this spell works and mine
conflict. I don't see Clairvoyance as bringing an image to a mage (and
thus it being a magically *generated* image. I see Clairvoyance as the
mage 'relocating' his senses so that he sees the image as if he was
there. But this emphaises my point anyway. You ask 'What makes me think
that a magician should be able to cast with the help of a magically
generated image in the first place?', my reply is 'What has FASA written
that explains why a Mage can't in terms of the metaphysics of magic and
not game balance?' (they might have done something about having to
synchronise auras -I can't remember- but then to do that surely a
Sorcerer Adept would need to perceive astrally, if only for a split
second).

> > another is that question under discussion about grounding, if an area
> > effect combat spell only grounds through one target how can it target
> > others who aren't dual beings at the time? Now FASA have tried to explain
> > this with the "need for a bridge between the astral and physical", but
> > this would seem to me to really imply that the astral energy grounds
> > through the initial target and then becomes purely physical (more like a
> > damaging manipulation spell) when in fact the spell radiates out in
> > astral and then grounds through the other targets.

> Anyway to answer your other question, I think that its only a matter
> of perspective. From a WYTIWYG POV there is no problem whatsoever,
> the caster belives that he can ground through someone with a combat
> spell and he knows that if its an area of effect spell it'll hit everyone
> in the vimcinity and so it happens.
Hold on, I think I may have misinterpretted your use of WYTIWYG before.
Now you seem to be saying that What the *Mage* thinks is what he gets,
right? Well if this is your explanation, then my reply is what do I tell
my player when he says 'but my mage doesn't think like that, maybe others
mages do but I don't. So why can't I just do X?'
If FASA puts these game balance limitations into the game I feel that
they should also give a Story reason why as well. And WYTIWYG just won't
cut it in my games, as not all mages think the same they have different
paradigms (sorry, too much M:tA :)
Personally I actually like my solution better which I thought of on the
fly on my last post, and that was that a Mage can cast spells at non
astral targets when he is astral, but only *if* he can calibrate the
spell to traverse the gap between teh Astral Plane and Real Space, and
because Astral Space is continually fluctuating in its 'closeness' to
real space (as the tides of mana ebb and flow) then the mage always needs
an immediate measuring guage by which to calculate that 'gap'. When he is
not astral, this is instinctive as he is in Real Space and he draws the
spell from the astral, so by his own location he knows when he's pulled
the spell far enough across the divide. But when that mage is astral he
has no guage to tell him if he has pushed the spell enough or too much
across the divide between Astral and Physical. The only Guage possible
are dual beings, including active foci etc, in which case the mage has to
focus (ie target/centre) upon these guages when casting the spell. Once the
spell has been calibrated it can travel across the divide and 'hit' any
target, astral or not.

Now one point a player brought up is that he says he remembers reading
that spells cannot be sustained whilst totally astral. I can't remember
if this is true or not but if it is, my metaphysical explanation for
grounding (which actually seems a misnomer now) can also explain this. As
the divide between Astral and Physical ebbs and flows the casting
magician needs to be concentrating continually on the 'guage' to
re-calibrate the sustained spell, when the mage is still attached in his
own body he instinctively has that guage (and the +2 TN for sustaining a
spell is the concentration to recalibrate the spell to teh divide), but
when astral, unless that mage is continually concentrating ONLY on that
dual being he cannot sustain a spell.

Sorry, I didn't mean to do that, but this illustrates what I think the SR
magic system is lacking. I just explained 3 game balancing rules (need of
a dual being to cast spells at physical targets, why spells can't be
sustained in the astral, and why a Mage receives a +2 TN for sustaining a
spell) with a single in-game metaphysical explanation which doesn't rely
on how a Mage thinks. Now my explanation may not be very good, but at
least I atempted to do it and do it so there don't seems to be
inconsistencies, whereas FASA don't always manage this (or attempt it even).

> > Also. why did FASA not allow Sorceror and Conjuror adepts to go astral?
> > Is it because the mages do not have the required knowledge to enter a
> > place which is a combination of both spell energy and spirit energy? Or
> > was it a game balance thing? Personally I think this is unfair because it
> > means Conjuror adept initiates cannot summon Great Forms, and thus they
> > are inferior conjurors to full blown mages when they are actually
> > supposed to be as good. And does it also mean that Sorceror adepts can't
> > Centre as this requires an instance of astral perception?
>
> Once again my first argument is WYTIWYG. If you have a copy of the
> NAGM you already know that FASA dismisses psionics as a case of
> self-imposed mental blocks.
I don't have NAGM but again I say 'What if a player decides his character
doesn't have those self imposed blocks?'.

> said for sorcerers and conjurors. As for it being a game balance thingy
> well I agree (boy I never though I'd hear me say that :) it largely is
> a game balance ruling. But its a good one, full magicians loose a *lot*
> by paying priority A for magic, and adepts can get prety strong by
> allocating that first priority to something else. So I think that
> its a good thing on the whole.
A good game balance thing for Sorcerer adepts perhaps but for conjurer
adepts? The use of spells vs use of spirits I would normally predict
would be heavily skewed on high spell use. So Conjurer adepts can't cast
spells, can't go astral, and can't conjure a great form spirit, whereas a
Shaman adept of Snake can cast Illusion and Detection spells (I think),
can conjure at least one type of spirit (and inits great form if teh
Shaman is an Initiate), and can also go astral. I don't really see that
as balanced. Anyway I quite like the idea of an Astral adept (Priority C
perhaps?) like the Priest in one of the first three novels.

> As for sorcerers and centering, I dont see why not. After all they can
> cast spells and that requires a bit of aura cynchronisation too no ?
But this is my point, I agree with you in that there should not be any
reason why not *in terms of game balance and mechanics*, but FASA don't
explain how in terms of metaphysics. I mean under centring it specifically
states that the mage opens to the astral plane when centring (even so
much so that he is open to astral attack <evil GM grin> :) and yet
Sorcerer adepts can't view the Astral plane -or have FASA now said tehy
can for a split second so they can Centre? Or have FASA said SorAdepts
can't Centre? And saying that 'well they can cast spells and that needs
aura synchronisation' either means that sorcerer adepts MUST be able to
see into astral to cast spells (not my opinion, my view is a Mage does
not need to see an aura to target a spell if he can at least see the
physical aspect instead) or you take the view that spellcasting does not
need astral perception even in some limited form, in which case the point
is moot as it now bears no relation to the centring question.

> > Just one last thought, shouldn't it be easier for a mage to learn a Power
> > Missile if he already knows Power Bolt?
>
> It depends, we had a long discussion about low-essence types and
> magic a few weeks ago. Some people used the healing rule as a precident
> to prove that all magic should have a hard time hitting them. But we
> managed to persuade them that this is not the case, healing cybered
> individuals is harder because the magician has to heal a body that
> no longer is the body it should be - and not because the lack of
> essence imposes any difficulties. Anyway what I am trying to say is
> that the spell-learning question is just a POV question just as
> the essence/magic question. Try to understand the basics of the magic
> system and you'll come up with a logical solution for it.
This I am okay with, its a whole new spell, with some similarities to
others, but still a new spell and so must be learnt as much. I can get
around that, so I won't push this point.

I am very sorry if I seemed overly argumentative in this post but I just
have very strong views on SRs magic system and how I believe FASA could
make it better. Sorry to labour my point so much! :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Tue, 6 Jun 1995 15:39:21 +0200

Message no. 5 > > I have some experience with Ars Magica and I agree that its magic
> > system is not bad. Its pretty good actually, much better than most of the
> > stuff you get out there. But SR's magic is way better - its more straight
> > forward (something that can be said for the whole system) and yet it
> > manages to remain interesting.

> I don't dispute that SRs system is straightforward, game mechanics wise
> its really good, and yes there are a lot of interesting spells out there;

Not only spells, it has all kinds of cool (and detailed) stuff about
summoning, the metaplanes, spell design, enchanting (anchorings/quieckenings)
and loads of other stuff that only get lip service in other systems.

> its just I'd like to see a theme, or underlying principle to the
> collection of Spells a Mage knows. I guess my perceptions are coloured by
> WWGS's Mage:The Ascension where a Mage who studies the sphere of Forces
> can use that knowledge to 'cast spells' like FireBall (Kinetic Forces
> increased in molecules to the point of combustion) and Lightning Bolt
> (electrical forces) but also to spell like Darksight (able to perceive
> the Infra Red forces), this leads to a variety of seemingly unrelated
> spells which do have a commonality. Now maybe SR magic does have this
> commonality as well, but FASA don't explain it -and that is my gripe.

Well there is nothing stopping you from selecting your spells
just that way. I mean thats one of the best things about the SR
system, it doesnt cram anything down your throat. If you want such
a restriction, go ahead and choose your spells that way, no one
is stopping you.

> > Well, we live in an imperfect world so what did you expect. Nevertheless
> > FASA has the most solid background I have ever seen.

> Background in terms of history -yes. But background in terms of
> explaining *why* magic works I believe could do with a bit of work.

Well I cant force my view on you, but as I see it SR has the
most solid basis for its magic system.

> > I agree that there
> > is the ocasional slip-up (even though most of them can be explained away
> > with WYTIWYG),

> WYTIWYG? If this means what you think is what you get, then my whole
> point is that yes I probably could fill in FASA's gaps but I shouldn't
> have to. I don't know how you're using the acronym WYTIWYG (or even if I
> have interpreted it correctly) so please correct me if I have
> misinterpretted you.

WYTIWYG means What You Think Is What You and was coined a coupla
months back during a somewhat intense discussion about HB.
Anyway it means that the magician projects his own perception of
reality (or what he expects from reality) on the energies
of the astral thereby giving himself the ability to use those
energies to alter "real reality". The problem is that people
also take the limitations of their perception with them
thereby limiting their own selves.

> > What makes you think that a magician should be able to cast with
> > the help of a magically generated image in the first place ?

> Ah this is how your interpretation of how this spell works and mine
> conflict. I don't see Clairvoyance as bringing an image to a mage (and
> thus it being a magically *generated* image. I see Clairvoyance as the
> mage 'relocating' his senses so that he sees the image as if he was
> there. But this emphaises my point anyway. You ask 'What makes me think
> that a magician should be able to cast with the help of a magically
> generated image in the first place?', my reply is 'What has FASA written
> that explains why a Mage can't in terms of the metaphysics of magic and
> not game balance?' (they might have done something about having to
> synchronise auras -I can't remember- but then to do that surely a
> Sorcerer Adept would need to perceive astrally, if only for a split
> second).

Well as far as Clairvoyance is concerned, I think that the rules
speak for the "image generating" explanation. So I think that further
debate is of no use. As for sorcerer adepts and aura synchronisation
(believe it or not we've had this before :) I can only say, WYTIWYG.
In other words the adepts believes (wants) myself to be an adept
and therefore is an adept with limited sences.

> > Anyway to answer your other question, I think that its only a matter
> > of perspective. From a WYTIWYG POV there is no problem whatsoever,
> > the caster belives that he can ground through someone with a combat
> > spell and he knows that if its an area of effect spell it'll hit everyone
> > in the vimcinity and so it happens.

> Hold on, I think I may have misinterpretted your use of WYTIWYG before.
> Now you seem to be saying that What the *Mage* thinks is what he gets,
> right? Well if this is your explanation, then my reply is what do I tell
> my player when he says 'but my mage doesn't think like that, maybe others
> mages do but I don't. So why can't I just do X?'

Easy, there is such a thing called "the current world view". Each
member of the society of SR shares that world view, either they want
it or not. In the NAGM you can find some pretty cool examples of
people that are mentaly sick and therefore have their own world view.
Anyway, such a player character is out of the question as he can no
longer be considered controlable - the same as overcybered dudes.

> If FASA puts these game balance limitations into the game I feel that
> they should also give a Story reason why as well. And WYTIWYG just won't
> cut it in my games, as not all mages think the same they have different
> paradigms (sorry, too much M:tA :)

Different paradigms - same planet - same physical reality :)

> Personally I actually like my solution better which I thought of on the
> fly on my last post, and that was that a Mage can cast spells at non
> astral targets when he is astral, but only *if* he can calibrate the
> spell to traverse the gap between teh Astral Plane and Real Space, and
> because Astral Space is continually fluctuating in its 'closeness' to
> real space (as the tides of mana ebb and flow) then the mage always needs
> an immediate measuring guage by which to calculate that 'gap'. When he is
> not astral, this is instinctive as he is in Real Space and he draws the
> spell from the astral, so by his own location he knows when he's pulled
> the spell far enough across the divide. But when that mage is astral he
> has no guage to tell him if he has pushed the spell enough or too much
> across the divide between Astral and Physical. The only Guage possible
> are dual beings, including active foci etc, in which case the mage has to
> focus (ie target/centre) upon these guages when casting the spell. Once the
> spell has been calibrated it can travel across the divide and 'hit' any
> target, astral or not.

I dont meant to be an ass, but this is totally out of bounds as it
allows for magicians to cast spells at people when projecting.

> Sorry, I didn't mean to do that, but this illustrates what I think the SR
> magic system is lacking. I just explained 3 game balancing rules (need of
> a dual being to cast spells at physical targets, why spells can't be
> sustained in the astral, and why a Mage receives a +2 TN for sustaining a
> spell) with a single in-game metaphysical explanation which doesn't rely
> on how a Mage thinks. Now my explanation may not be very good, but at
> least I atempted to do it and do it so there don't seems to be
> inconsistencies, whereas FASA don't always manage this (or attempt it even).

There are perfectly good explanations for all 3 cases. In order to
cast a spell to the physical from the astral you need a gate (dual being)
a perfectly logical explanation AFAIK. As for your second example
(sustained spells in the astral) well, I know that you cant go
astral *and* sustain spells (wich is perfectly logical as its an
exclusive action) but I am not that sure that you canot sustain spells
while projecting. As for the +2, I cant nonestly see your problem,
what did you expect ? Magicians sustaining x gazillion spells with no
significant overhead ? I dont think so, this is not a case of
game balance, but rather a case of common sence.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Tue, 6 Jun 1995 16:10:00 +0100

Message no. 6 On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > I don't dispute that SRs system is straightforward, game mechanics wise
> > its really good, and yes there are a lot of interesting spells out there;
>
> Not only spells, it has all kinds of cool (and detailed) stuff about
> summoning, the metaplanes, spell design, enchanting (anchorings/quieckenings)
> and loads of other stuff that only get lip service in other systems.
Agreed, I guess my main gripe is with the spell exlpanations.

> Well there is nothing stopping you from selecting your spells
> just that way. I mean thats one of the best things about the SR
> system, it doesnt cram anything down your throat. If you want such
> a restriction, go ahead and choose your spells that way, no one
> is stopping you.
Yeah, I may as a player do that but nine times out of ten a player will
go for a collection of all the most useful spells and to heck with any
other logic in their choices.

> WYTIWYG means What You Think Is What You and was coined a coupla
> months back during a somewhat intense discussion about HB.
> Anyway it means that the magician projects his own perception of
> reality (or what he expects from reality) on the energies
> of the astral thereby giving himself the ability to use those
> energies to alter "real reality". The problem is that people
> also take the limitations of their perception with them
> thereby limiting their own selves.
Yeah, I sort of got that impression later on, and while i agree its a
factor it seems that lately its has been the non-specific answer to any
magic question -which I feel is a cop out, I want other theories, the
theories that these *Mages* have which in turn make them think they can
only do X and not anything more. IE WYTIWYG may be the limit of magic
(and when you break that barrier to a large degree it becomes magicK (too
much Mage:tA :) )but I want the reasons why mages think like that in the
first place -there must be a reason.

> Well as far as Clairvoyance is concerned, I think that the rules
> speak for the "image generating" explanation. So I think that further
> debate is of no use. As for sorcerer adepts and aura synchronisation
> (believe it or not we've had this before :) I can only say, WYTIWYG.
> In other words the adepts believes (wants) myself to be an adept
> and therefore is an adept with limited sences.
Again, I prefer the reason why the person believes he is only an adept. I
mean I did have a Sorcerer Adept who didn't conjure and the like because
he was terrified to the point of it being a phobia of spirits. But not
all adepts are like this, what makes the majority of them believe they
can only be an adept? Personally I would think there would either have to
be an extremely well known theory propogated so many newly awakened mages
might think "Okay I'm a magic user, but maybe I'm only an Adept" -this is
unlikely (unless you like the Conspiracy theory of an organisation like
the Technocracy who want to eliminate aqnd restrict the open use of
magic)- or there would have to be some reason beyond simple WYTIWYG for
their magic being limited (if this were M:tA I could explain this as
having the Avatar corrupted in some way -Gilgul perhaps- or being blocked
from learning the Sphere of Spirit. BUT FASA GIVE NO SR EXPLANATIONS!
(and yet I can give explanations in terms of another system!!!!!!!!!!)

> > Now you seem to be saying that What the *Mage* thinks is what he gets,
> > right? Well if this is your explanation, then my reply is what do I tell
> > my player when he says 'but my mage doesn't think like that, maybe others
> > mages do but I don't. So why can't I just do X?'
>
> Easy, there is such a thing called "the current world view". Each
> member of the society of SR shares that world view, either they want
> it or not.
Okay I agree that there are such things as world wide paradigms but I
don't believe that all magicians (the individuals who are supposed to
challenge mundane logic) would share the same view -and in fact they
don't, hence the difference between Hermetics and Shamans, however I
believe there should be more divisions than justy two (I hate to use M:tA
as an example again but there they have the *9* Traditions each with a
different world view paradigm, and then there are the Conventions,
Nephandi, Marauders etc)

> In the NAGM you can find some pretty cool examples of
> people that are mentaly sick and therefore have their own world view.
> Anyway, such a player character is out of the question as he can no
> longer be considered controlable - the same as overcybered dudes.
But there shouls be someway to keep them playable, I mean they managed it
with hermetics and shamans, A mage believes that the only way he can
conjure a spirit is through long rituals while a shaman believes he can
just conjure one up in a second -yet shamans are not thought of as
uncontrollable as they have other limitations imposed (eg the *number* of
spirits they believe they can control at one time).

> > If FASA puts these game balance limitations into the game I feel that
> > they should also give a Story reason why as well. And WYTIWYG just won't
> > cut it in my games, as not all mages think the same they have different
> > paradigms (sorry, too much M:tA :)
>
> > Personally I actually like my solution better which I thought of on the
> > fly on my last post, and that was that a Mage can cast spells at non
> > astral targets when he is astral, but only *if* he can calibrate the
> > spell to traverse the gap between teh Astral Plane and Real Space, and
> > because Astral Space is continually fluctuating in its 'closeness' to
> > real space (as the tides of mana ebb and flow) then the mage always needs
> > an immediate measuring guage by which to calculate that 'gap'. When he is
> > not astral, this is instinctive as he is in Real Space and he draws the
> > spell from the astral, so by his own location he knows when he's pulled
> > the spell far enough across the divide. But when that mage is astral he
> > has no guage to tell him if he has pushed the spell enough or too much
> > across the divide between Astral and Physical. The only Guage possible
> > are dual beings, including active foci etc, in which case the mage has to
> > focus (ie target/centre) upon these guages when casting the spell. Once the
> > spell has been calibrated it can travel across the divide and 'hit' any
> > target, astral or not.
>
> I dont meant to be an ass, but this is totally out of bounds as it
> allows for magicians to cast spells at people when projecting.
I may not have been clear in what I was proposing, basically the mage
would need to recalibrate the spell each time it was used (as the Divide
ebbs and flows with the Mana, as before the Sixth world the Divide was
too wide to allow spells to be 'brought' over or too allow Astral
Travel). And a mage needs to focus (ie centre the spell) on the dual
being/item to act as the guage. The mechanics and limitations remain the
same as in the SR rules, I've just given it what I consider a more
coherent explanation. I just never liked how FASA explained it as
*grounding* a spell as this seems to imply that the astral spell
traverses the divide to the physical plane through the bridge, and then
an area effect spell would radiate out from the bridge *in the physical
plane* which Combat spells do not. Basically an area effect spell cast
from astral through the use of a dual being bridge stil travels on in the
astral plane and then manifests into its target (astral or not) once it
reaches it. This last bit seems to indicate that the spell does not
actually need to have a bridge for each target only one. But I want an
explanation as too why? [Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, I'm seeing it too
much as one area effect being effectively lots of different spells and
really only one needs to "ground". But then really you're saying the
spell only needs one bridge to modify itself to manifest into the
physical plane, and that "grounding" is just a misnomer, in which case
you've just described my explanation of calibration (sorry I'm beginning
to sound conceited :(]

> > Sorry, I didn't mean to do that, but this illustrates what I think the SR
> > magic system is lacking. I just explained 3 game balancing rules (need of
> > a dual being to cast spells at physical targets, why spells can't be
> > sustained in the astral, and why a Mage receives a +2 TN for sustaining a
> > spell) with a single in-game metaphysical explanation which doesn't rely
> > on how a Mage thinks. Now my explanation may not be very good, but at
> > least I atempted to do it and do it so there don't seems to be
> > inconsistencies, whereas FASA don't always manage this (or attempt it even).
>
> There are perfectly good explanations for all 3 cases. In order to
> cast a spell to the physical from the astral you need a gate (dual being)
> a perfectly logical explanation AFAIK.
But see my reservations about the use of the word "grounding" and the
fact that area effect combat spells don't go through that gate but
continue on in Astral space until they reach the target and *then*
manifest themselves on the physical plane (apparently not needing a gate
now).

> As for your second example (sustained spells in the astral) well, I
> know that you cant go astral *and* sustain spells (which is perfectly
> logical as its an exclusive action) but I am not that sure that you
> cannot sustain spells while projecting.
I admit that I am not familiar with this rule (as I stated it was my
player who brought it up) and I'd need to read up.

> As for the +2, I cant nonestly see your problem,
> what did you expect ? Magicians sustaining x gazillion spells with no
> significant overhead ? I dont think so, this is not a case of
> game balance, but rather a case of common sence.
I didn't have *any* problem with this, all I was doing was showing that as
a side effect of explaining why an Astral mage needs a dual being to cast
a spell at non-astral targets, I also was able to give a description on
the type of concentration needed to sustain a spell and which led to the
+2 TN modifier. Another explanation of what leads to the +2 TN is that
the mage is concentrating on trying to prevent the spell's Astral form
unravelling, or perhaps its because the mage must concentrate to on
feeding the spell astral energy. These are two more reasons why the mage
needs to concentrate on sustaining a spell (and thus receive a +2 TN
modifier), my original reason of having to concentrate on adjusting the
spell so it can continue to bridge the Divide, was just another
explanation of what caused the +2 Tn. I wasn't saying there was anything
wrong with the +2 TN i was merely showing that my one explanation gave
*reasons* for three different game mechanics which are already in the SR
game.

I am looking for in-game theories and reasons (beyond the WYTIWYG reason),
*not* game mechanics and a reiterance of FASA's in-game theories -which
I believe are flawed and which was the whole reason for this thread.

Sorry to go on but I have not yet been convinced that the SR magic system
is perfect and yet there are a few people out there who are convinced it
is -I'd either like you to convert me.....<puts on best Darth Vader
impression>.....or you can come over to the Dark Side.<sounds as if he is
having an asthma attack and then switches off Darth Vader mode> :)

Cheers for your feedback!

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 7 Jun 1995 16:23:24 +0200

Message no. 7 > > Not only spells, it has all kinds of cool (and detailed) stuff about
> > summoning, the metaplanes, spell design, enchanting (anchorings/quieckenings)
> > and loads of other stuff that only get lip service in other systems.

> Agreed, I guess my main gripe is with the spell exlpanations.

I know what you mean, and I cant say that I blame you. Spell
explanations are however not an integral part of the magic system, you could
after all redesign the spells bugging you (check out Gurth's Tech Specs for a
complete list of all SR spells with reverse engineering data on them) and give
your own explanations about each and every one of them.

> > Well there is nothing stopping you from selecting your spells
> > just that way. I mean thats one of the best things about the SR
> > system, it doesnt cram anything down your throat. If you want such
> > a restriction, go ahead and choose your spells that way, no one
> > is stopping you.
> Yeah, I may as a player do that but nine times out of ten a player will
> go for a collection of all the most useful spells and to heck with any
> other logic in their choices.

You are once again correct, but as I said one of SR's main virtues
is the freedom of choice it gives to the players. So if you feel that
this freedom is too much, feel free to restrict it in any way you see fit.

> > WYTIWYG means What You Think Is What You and was coined a coupla
> > months back during a somewhat intense discussion about HB.
> > Anyway it means that the magician projects his own perception of
> > reality (or what he expects from reality) on the energies
> > of the astral thereby giving himself the ability to use those
> > energies to alter "real reality". The problem is that people
> > also take the limitations of their perception with them
> > thereby limiting their own selves.

> Yeah, I sort of got that impression later on, and while i agree its a
> factor it seems that lately its has been the non-specific answer to any
> magic question -which I feel is a cop out, I want other theories, the
> theories that these *Mages* have which in turn make them think they can
> only do X and not anything more. IE WYTIWYG may be the limit of magic
> (and when you break that barrier to a large degree it becomes magicK (too
> much Mage:tA :) )but I want the reasons why mages think like that in the
> first place -there must be a reason.

Dont get me wrong I did not mean to use WYTIWYG as the answer to
every question concerning magic. What I meant to say is that WYTIWYG
is the basis of the magical reality, a sort of hidden truth. It is
something totally useless to us in game terms, but it nevertheless
has the power to demonstrate that the SR magic system is something more
than a jumble of game-balance decisions. And as far as I know its
the only theory that unifies both SR and ED magic systems :)
I only mention it when people start asking fundamental questions
like "why is glass transparent in the astral".

> > Well as far as Clairvoyance is concerned, I think that the rules
> > speak for the "image generating" explanation. So I think that further
> > debate is of no use. As for sorcerer adepts and aura synchronisation
> > (believe it or not we've had this before :) I can only say, WYTIWYG.
> > In other words the adepts believes (wants) myself to be an adept
> > and therefore is an adept with limited sences.

> Again, I prefer the reason why the person believes he is only an adept.

I understand, that reason may range form something as dramatic as your own
example to basic phobias and early childhood experiences (i.e. a magically
active child accidentaly played around with fire as a child, setting
his room on fire and therefore has a lifelong mental block when it comes
to spells.) Anyway what actually matters for us is the fact that
addepts only have reduced powers, the actuall reason maybe WYTIWYG,
or it could just as easily be a defective/mutated gene or something, but
it all comes down to reduced powers. This is a fact and it canot be changed
everything else is academic.

> having the Avatar corrupted in some way -Gilgul perhaps- or being blocked
> from learning the Sphere of Spirit. BUT FASA GIVE NO SR EXPLANATIONS!
> (and yet I can give explanations in terms of another system!!!!!!!!!!)

Well the infamous magus-factor has been directly and indirectly mentioned
in numerous FASA products.

> > > Now you seem to be saying that What the *Mage* thinks is what he gets,
> > > right? Well if this is your explanation, then my reply is what do I tell
> > > my player when he says 'but my mage doesn't think like that, maybe others
> > > mages do but I don't. So why can't I just do X?'
> >
> > Easy, there is such a thing called "the current world view". Each
> > member of the society of SR shares that world view, either they want
> > it or not.

> Okay I agree that there are such things as world wide paradigms but I
> don't believe that all magicians (the individuals who are supposed to
> challenge mundane logic) would share the same view -and in fact they
> don't, hence the difference between Hermetics and Shamans, however I
> believe there should be more divisions than justy two (I hate to use M:tA
> as an example again but there they have the *9* Traditions each with a
> different world view paradigm, and then there are the Conventions,
> Nephandi, Marauders etc)

Well there are more divisions that the famous two. In SR we have
Hermetics, North Amerikan Shamen, Celtic Druids, English Druids,
European Pagans, Elves of the Ways and the Paths, Initiates, Afrikan
Shamen and hosts of variations of these basic motifs.

> > In the NAGM you can find some pretty cool examples of
> > people that are mentaly sick and therefore have their own world view.
> > Anyway, such a player character is out of the question as he can no
> > longer be considered controlable - the same as overcybered dudes.

> But there shouls be someway to keep them playable, I mean they managed it
> with hermetics and shamans, A mage believes that the only way he can
> conjure a spirit is through long rituals while a shaman believes he can
> just conjure one up in a second -yet shamans are not thought of as
> uncontrollable as they have other limitations imposed (eg the *number* of
> spirits they believe they can control at one time).

Well this is a basic principle in SR, that individuals who cross a certain
line (i.e. lower than 0 essense dudes) are no longer viable as players. So
I guess the same goes with those "other world view magicians". I mean there
is nothing that could stop you as a GM to allow your players to play a character
like that, but if you decide to do somarhing like that be prepared to
face all sorts of weird problems.

> > > If FASA puts these game balance limitations into the game I feel that
> > > they should also give a Story reason why as well. And WYTIWYG just won't
> > > cut it in my games, as not all mages think the same they have different
> > > paradigms (sorry, too much M:tA :)

That may be so, but we are all human beings that grew up on the planet earth.
This might sound prety rediculus, but just stop for a seconds and think about
the common cultural background this gives us. We all expect to live in a 3D
environment, we expect glass to be transparent, we all aknoledge the existence
of animals/plants. This list is huge, and its made up of all the basic stuff
that help us shape our perception of the astral in way that our intelect can
cope with it.

> I may not have been clear in what I was proposing, basically the mage
> would need to recalibrate the spell each time it was used (as the Divide
> ebbs and flows with the Mana, as before the Sixth world the Divide was
> too wide to allow spells to be 'brought' over or too allow Astral
> Travel). And a mage needs to focus (ie centre the spell) on the dual
> being/item to act as the guage. The mechanics and limitations remain the
> same as in the SR rules, I've just given it what I consider a more
> coherent explanation. I just never liked how FASA explained it as
> *grounding* a spell as this seems to imply that the astral spell
> traverses the divide to the physical plane through the bridge, and then
> an area effect spell would radiate out from the bridge *in the physical
> plane* which Combat spells do not.

As I said before, the answer to that is quite simple. If you cant live
with a WYTIWYG explanation just say that damaging manipulations (instead of
combat spells) can ground like that. Now they do spread in the physical plane
thereby relieving you of your problem :)

> > There are perfectly good explanations for all 3 cases. In order to
> > cast a spell to the physical from the astral you need a gate (dual being)
> > a perfectly logical explanation AFAIK.

> But see my reservations about the use of the word "grounding" and the
> fact that area effect combat spells don't go through that gate but
> continue on in Astral space until they reach the target and *then*
> manifest themselves on the physical plane (apparently not needing a gate
> now).

I understand, as I said the solution are damaging manipulations. I mean
for all we know this could be a fragging typo. Mybe FASA wanted to say
damaging manipulations and some dumbass wrote combat spells instead.

> > As for the +2, I cant nonestly see your problem,
> > what did you expect ? Magicians sustaining x gazillion spells with no
> > significant overhead ? I dont think so, this is not a case of
> > game balance, but rather a case of common sence.

> I didn't have *any* problem with this, all I was doing was showing that as
> a side effect of explaining why an Astral mage needs a dual being to cast
> a spell at non-astral targets, I also was able to give a description on
> the type of concentration needed to sustain a spell and which led to the
> +2 TN modifier. Another explanation of what leads to the +2 TN is that
> the mage is concentrating on trying to prevent the spell's Astral form
> unravelling, or perhaps its because the mage must concentrate to on
> feeding the spell astral energy. These are two more reasons why the mage
> needs to concentrate on sustaining a spell (and thus receive a +2 TN
> modifier), my original reason of having to concentrate on adjusting the
> spell so it can continue to bridge the Divide, was just another
> explanation of what caused the +2 Tn. I wasn't saying there was anything
> wrong with the +2 TN i was merely showing that my one explanation gave
> *reasons* for three different game mechanics which are already in the SR
> game.

Well if I am not grossly mistaken the is an oficial FASA explanation
concerning the +2 modifier. The explanation is that "raw casting"
(as oposed to casting using matrices - this bit of info comes from ED)
requires that the magician channel the energy used up by the spell
through his own body. This proces is not that easy (and it gets
harder if the astral energy becomes tainted - like in background count
situations) and thats why masting magicians get the +2 modifier.

> I am looking for in-game theories and reasons (beyond the WYTIWYG reason),
> *not* game mechanics and a reiterance of FASA's in-game theories -which
> I believe are flawed and which was the whole reason for this thread.

I am a staunch believer in the SR system and I always try to find
explanations that are within the system. Anything non-canonical is
just that, non-canonical.

> Sorry to go on but I have not yet been convinced that the SR magic system
> is perfect and yet there are a few people out there who are convinced it
> is -I'd either like you to convert me.....<puts on best Darth Vader
> impression>.....or you can come over to the Dark Side.<sounds as if he is
> having an asthma attack and then switches off Darth Vader mode> :)

I'm working on it :)

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 7 Jun 1995 16:28:36 +0100

Message no. 8 On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> I know what you mean, and I cant say that I blame you. Spell
> explanations are however not an integral part of the magic system, you could
> after all redesign the spells bugging you (check out Gurth's Tech Specs for a
> complete list of all SR spells with reverse engineering data on them) and give
> your own explanations about each and every one of them.
Thats what I like to see. A good example of which was a spell in Ka.Ge
called Bolo, it gave stats on how it restrained characters etc, but it
aslo explained how this happened -something about condensing the humidity
in teh air or something and so it was more dificult to cast in really dry
places eg deserts :)

> You are once again correct, but as I said one of SR's main virtues
> is the freedom of choice it gives to the players. So if you feel that
> this freedom is too much, feel free to restrict it in any way you see fit.
Yeah, I guess this is the best way, maybe ask the character to provide a
logic behind their spells, but don't enforce what that logic must be.

> Dont get me wrong I did not mean to use WYTIWYG as the answer to
> every question concerning magic. What I meant to say is that WYTIWYG
> is the basis of the magical reality, a sort of hidden truth. It is
> something totally useless to us in game terms, but it nevertheless
> has the power to demonstrate that the SR magic system is something more
> than a jumble of game-balance decisions. And as far as I know its
> the only theory that unifies both SR and ED magic systems :)
> I only mention it when people start asking fundamental questions
> like "why is glass transparent in the astral".
Okay, thats that point dealt with.

>
> > Again, I prefer the reason why the person believes he is only an adept.
>
> I understand, that reason may range form something as dramatic as your own
> example to basic phobias and early childhood experiences (i.e. a magically
> active child accidentaly played around with fire as a child, setting
> his room on fire and therefore has a lifelong mental block when it comes
> to spells.) Anyway what actually matters for us is the fact that
> addepts only have reduced powers, the actuall reason maybe WYTIWYG,
> or it could just as easily be a defective/mutated gene or something, but
> it all comes down to reduced powers. This is a fact and it canot be changed
> everything else is academic.
Again maybe the GM should ask teh character to come up with the reason
why he's an adept, maybe :-S

> > having the Avatar corrupted in some way -Gilgul perhaps- or being blocked
> > from learning the Sphere of Spirit. BUT FASA GIVE NO SR EXPLANATIONS!
> > (and yet I can give explanations in terms of another system!!!!!!!!!!)
>
> Well the infamous magus-factor has been directly and indirectly mentioned
> in numerous FASA products.
Its lies, all lies spread by the Technocracy! Anyone can be awakened even
you mister chromed up st samurai, don't you see that you're already using
magick, you're Iteration X's dream!!!!!!! And all these lies about magic
having a harder time effecting technology is rubbish -again a lie by the
Techs. Technology IS magick, every time you use a vidphone you're using a
talisman of clairvoyance and clairaudience, those binoculars are a
clairvoyance fetish, that flamethrower is just a well a Flamethrower
spell anchored into a channel for astral energy (gasoline). The whoel of
reality is mutable you must believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Sorry but I have a heavy World of Darkness/ SR crossover thing :)

> Well there are more divisions that the famous two. In SR we have
> Hermetics, North Amerikan Shamen, Celtic Druids, English Druids,
> European Pagans, Elves of the Ways and the Paths, Initiates, Afrikan
> Shamen and hosts of variations of these basic motifs.
Yeah, I had a quick look at teh Paths in tir Na Nog (I haven't read the
whole book even though its been sitting on myshelf since its release :)
and I must admit I forgot those divisions (although they still don't seem
to be so fundamental in terms of their use of magic :) By the way the bit
about teh Paths and Ascension just shows that Mage:the Ascension does
interact with SR :)

> Well this is a basic principle in SR, that individuals who cross a certain
> line (i.e. lower than 0 essense dudes) are no longer viable as players. So
> I guess the same goes with those "other world view magicians". I mean there
> is nothing that could stop you as a GM to allow your players to play a character
> like that, but if you decide to do somarhing like that be prepared to
> face all sorts of weird problems.
Yeah I guess the reply to my question of "what if my player says 'but my
mage doesn't think like that' ?" is "well sit down and construct a way
his magic works in his paradigm without letting it affect game balance".

> That may be so, but we are all human beings that grew up on the planet earth.
> This might sound prety rediculus, but just stop for a seconds and think about
> the common cultural background this gives us. We all expect to live in a 3D
> environment, we expect glass to be transparent, we all aknoledge the existence
> of animals/plants. This list is huge, and its made up of all the basic stuff
> that help us shape our perception of the astral in way that our intelect can
> cope with it.
I have to disagree a little here, there are many cultural differences
that even affect a person's perceptions. An example of this is that some
"primitive" (I don't like using that word) tribes when shown a line
drawing of a ballerina would only see it as a pattern of lines, they
would not be able to see that the drawing shows a 3D object through a 2D
medium. Now this may be very difficult to understand, but think of this:
regarding all these "hidden image" pictures made up of lots of colours
and lines and dots etc which show a 3D image, those people which can't
see the images (me included -I've only ever managed to see one, a
rabbit!) are like teh tribe, and those of us who have no trouble seeing
the hidden 3D images are like the "non-primitives".

> I understand, as I said the solution are damaging manipulations. I mean
> for all we know this could be a fragging typo. Mybe FASA wanted to say
> damaging manipulations and some dumbass wrote combat spells instead.
Heh! Just think if that was true!!!!!!!

> Well if I am not grossly mistaken the is an oficial FASA explanation
> concerning the +2 modifier. The explanation is that "raw casting"
> (as oposed to casting using matrices - this bit of info comes from ED)
> requires that the magician channel the energy used up by the spell
> through his own body. This proces is not that easy (and it gets
> harder if the astral energy becomes tainted - like in background count
> situations) and thats why masting magicians get the +2 modifier.
Yeah they did didn't they. <sheepish grin> I really should try reading
teh rules again :) But then thats what comes of playing right from the
1st Ed with the big hardback version :) Still maybe the Divide idea is
still valid and in combination with FASA's explanation could still make
sense.

> > I am looking for in-game theories and reasons (beyond the WYTIWYG reason),
> > *not* game mechanics and a reiterance of FASA's in-game theories -which
> > I believe are flawed and which was the whole reason for this thread.
>
> I am a staunch believer in the SR system and I always try to find
> explanations that are within the system. Anything non-canonical is
> just that, non-canonical.
That doesn't mean those theories shouldn't be originated and debated.

> > Sorry to go on but I have not yet been convinced that the SR magic system
> > is perfect and yet there are a few people out there who are convinced it
> > is -I'd either like you to convert me.....<puts on best Darth Vader
> > impression>.....or you can come over to the Dark Side.<sounds as if he is
> > having an asthma attack and then switches off Darth Vader mode> :)
>
> I'm working on it :)
And you might be getting there :)

By the way, I'm beginning to have soem thoughts on what happens when a
spell is not calibrated right and overshoots the Divide or falls short,
where does the spell go? Maybe it enters into a parallel dimension, very
similar to our own except a very few subtle changes -ala Amber's Shadow
Earths or Luther Arkwright's Parallels.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 7 Jun 1995 18:31:08 +0200

Message no. 9 > > I know what you mean, and I cant say that I blame you. Spell
> > explanations are however not an integral part of the magic system, you could
> > after all redesign the spells bugging you (check out Gurth's Tech Specs for a
> > complete list of all SR spells with reverse engineering data on them) and give
> > your own explanations about each and every one of them.

> Thats what I like to see. A good example of which was a spell in Ka.Ge
> called Bolo, it gave stats on how it restrained characters etc, but it
> aslo explained how this happened -something about condensing the humidity
> in teh air or something and so it was more dificult to cast in really dry
> places eg deserts :)

I like this sort of explanation too. So if you are interested we (Gurth and
I) would be more than pleased to have such a section in the next sourcebook.

> > You are once again correct, but as I said one of SR's main virtues
> > is the freedom of choice it gives to the players. So if you feel that
> > this freedom is too much, feel free to restrict it in any way you see fit.

> Yeah, I guess this is the best way, maybe ask the character to provide a
> logic behind their spells, but don't enforce what that logic must be.

I'd say that this is up to you as a GM. OTOH I think that elemental
adepts are really neat if you are interested in specialised spells.
Especially the earth one.

> > Dont get me wrong I did not mean to use WYTIWYG as the answer to
> > every question concerning magic. What I meant to say is that WYTIWYG
> > is the basis of the magical reality, a sort of hidden truth. It is
> > something totally useless to us in game terms, but it nevertheless
> > has the power to demonstrate that the SR magic system is something more
> > than a jumble of game-balance decisions. And as far as I know its
> > the only theory that unifies both SR and ED magic systems :)
> > I only mention it when people start asking fundamental questions
> > like "why is glass transparent in the astral".

> Okay, thats that point dealt with.

Ok I am glad to hear it :)

> > > Again, I prefer the reason why the person believes he is only an adept.
> >
> > I understand, that reason may range form something as dramatic as your own
> > example to basic phobias and early childhood experiences (i.e. a magically
> > active child accidentaly played around with fire as a child, setting
> > his room on fire and therefore has a lifelong mental block when it comes
> > to spells.) Anyway what actually matters for us is the fact that
> > addepts only have reduced powers, the actuall reason maybe WYTIWYG,
> > or it could just as easily be a defective/mutated gene or something, but
> > it all comes down to reduced powers. This is a fact and it canot be changed
> > everything else is academic.

> Again maybe the GM should ask teh character to come up with the reason
> why he's an adept, maybe :-S

This is definitely a vert interesting idea. I dont think that all my players
would go along with it, but its interesting nevertheless :)

> > > having the Avatar corrupted in some way -Gilgul perhaps- or being blocked
> > > from learning the Sphere of Spirit. BUT FASA GIVE NO SR EXPLANATIONS!
> > > (and yet I can give explanations in terms of another system!!!!!!!!!!)
> >
> > Well the infamous magus-factor has been directly and indirectly mentioned
> > in numerous FASA products.

> Its lies, all lies spread by the Technocracy! Anyone can be awakened even
> you mister chromed up st samurai, don't you see that you're already using
> magick, you're Iteration X's dream!!!!!!! And all these lies about magic
> having a harder time effecting technology is rubbish -again a lie by the
> Techs. Technology IS magick, every time you use a vidphone you're using a
> talisman of clairvoyance and clairaudience, those binoculars are a
> clairvoyance fetish, that flamethrower is just a well a Flamethrower
> spell anchored into a channel for astral energy (gasoline). The whoel of
> reality is mutable you must believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> (Sorry but I have a heavy World of Darkness/ SR crossover thing :)

I understand :) But I realy think that the mage-gene explanation
is a very good one. After all we know for sure that all the meta-human
phenotypes are the result of a special gene that reacts to the presence of
magic (Changeling).

> > Well there are more divisions that the famous two. In SR we have
> > Hermetics, North Amerikan Shamen, Celtic Druids, English Druids,
> > European Pagans, Elves of the Ways and the Paths, Initiates, Afrikan
> > Shamen and hosts of variations of these basic motifs.

> Yeah, I had a quick look at teh Paths in tir Na Nog (I haven't read the
> whole book even though its been sitting on myshelf since its release :)
> and I must admit I forgot those divisions (although they still don't seem
> to be so fundamental in terms of their use of magic :) By the way the bit
> about teh Paths and Ascension just shows that Mage:the Ascension does
> interact with SR :)

Well they still use the same system (kudos to FASA for that), but they
are a totally revolutionary concept. They are mainly hermetic and yet they
can summon spirits and get shamanic boni. They can harness the power
of storms, they get more magic as PAs and cyber cost for them less.
I'd say that they are pretty wierd. And BTW their simple existance is
probably proof enough for WYTIWYG :) <-- smiley :)
And BTW once again :) Read "Nospheratu" if you like the Ways and the Paths,
lotsa neato stuff there.

> > Well this is a basic principle in SR, that individuals who cross a certain
> > line (i.e. lower than 0 essense dudes) are no longer viable as players. So
> > I guess the same goes with those "other world view magicians". I mean
there
> > is nothing that could stop you as a GM to allow your players to play a character
> > like that, but if you decide to do somarhing like that be prepared to
> > face all sorts of weird problems.

> Yeah I guess the reply to my question of "what if my player says 'but my
> mage doesn't think like that' ?" is "well sit down and construct a way
> his magic works in his paradigm without letting it affect game balance".

Yep.

> > That may be so, but we are all human beings that grew up on the planet earth.
> > This might sound prety rediculus, but just stop for a seconds and think about
> > the common cultural background this gives us. We all expect to live in a 3D
> > environment, we expect glass to be transparent, we all aknoledge the existence
> > of animals/plants. This list is huge, and its made up of all the basic stuff
> > that help us shape our perception of the astral in way that our intelect can
> > cope with it.

> I have to disagree a little here, there are many cultural differences
> that even affect a person's perceptions. An example of this is that some
> "primitive" (I don't like using that word) tribes when shown a line
> drawing of a ballerina would only see it as a pattern of lines, they
> would not be able to see that the drawing shows a 3D object through a 2D
> medium. Now this may be very difficult to understand, but think of this:
> regarding all these "hidden image" pictures made up of lots of colours
> and lines and dots etc which show a 3D image, those people which can't
> see the images (me included -I've only ever managed to see one, a
> rabbit!) are like teh tribe, and those of us who have no trouble seeing
> the hidden 3D images are like the "non-primitives".

I agree, but you have to admit that the astral (and magic in general)
is based on the simple stuff (or as various SR magicians put it "magic is
life and life is magic"). So I think that a characters perception of
magical reality would depend more on simple stuff like the fact that
we live in a 3D world and not abstract ideas like a 2D drawing on paper
representing a 3D image. After all text and other abstract ideas are
so irrelevant (to magic) that you cant even read them.
Anyway I agree that a different cultural background would produce
different magical traditins (hermatics/shamans for example) but on
a very basic level they would both be very much alike. (and they are)

> > I understand, as I said the solution are damaging manipulations. I mean
> > for all we know this could be a fragging typo. Mybe FASA wanted to say
> > damaging manipulations and some dumbass wrote combat spells instead.

> Heh! Just think if that was true!!!!!!!

Well I would be willing to play it like that from now on. Not that
it matters :)

> > Well if I am not grossly mistaken the is an oficial FASA explanation
> > concerning the +2 modifier. The explanation is that "raw casting"
> > (as oposed to casting using matrices - this bit of info comes from ED)
> > requires that the magician channel the energy used up by the spell
> > through his own body. This proces is not that easy (and it gets
> > harder if the astral energy becomes tainted - like in background count
> > situations) and thats why masting magicians get the +2 modifier.

> Yeah they did didn't they. <sheepish grin> I really should try reading
> teh rules again :) But then thats what comes of playing right from the
> 1st Ed with the big hardback version :) Still maybe the Divide idea is
> still valid and in combination with FASA's explanation could still make
> sense.

Yeah, RTFM helps a lot dont it :) ?

> > > I am looking for in-game theories and reasons (beyond the WYTIWYG reason),
> > > *not* game mechanics and a reiterance of FASA's in-game theories -which
> > > I believe are flawed and which was the whole reason for this thread.
> >
> > I am a staunch believer in the SR system and I always try to find
> > explanations that are within the system. Anything non-canonical is
> > just that, non-canonical.

> That doesn't mean those theories shouldn't be originated and debated.

Debated yes, but with the intention of figuring out a canonical
explanation :)

> > > Sorry to go on but I have not yet been convinced that the SR magic system
> > > is perfect and yet there are a few people out there who are convinced it
> > > is -I'd either like you to convert me.....<puts on best Darth Vader
> > > impression>.....or you can come over to the Dark Side.<sounds as if
he is
> > > having an asthma attack and then switches off Darth Vader mode> :)
> >
> > I'm working on it :)
> And you might be getting there :)
I sincerely hope so :)

> By the way, I'm beginning to have soem thoughts on what happens when a
> spell is not calibrated right and overshoots the Divide or falls short,
> where does the spell go? Maybe it enters into a parallel dimension, very
> similar to our own except a very few subtle changes -ala Amber's Shadow
> Earths or Luther Arkwright's Parallels.

This is Mage the Ascension stuff aint it ?

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:42:01 +1000

Message no. 10 Jani Fikouras (major proponent of WYTIWYG) wrote:

> Dont get me wrong I did not mean to use WYTIWYG as the answer to
> every question concerning magic. What I meant to say is that WYTIWYG
> is the basis of the magical reality, a sort of hidden truth.

I think you dramtically overvalue the importance of WYTIWYG, myself.

Someone else wrote:

> But there [should] be someway to keep them playable, I mean they managed it
> with hermetics and shamans, A mage believes that the only way he can
> conjure a spirit is through long rituals while a shaman believes he can
> just conjure one up in a second [...]

But nature spirits and elementals have many differences. There is no
way, using the `explanation' WYTIWYG to neatly explain why a shaman
couldn't summon up spirits that were elementals, or vice versa.

> This might sound prety rediculus, but just stop for a seconds and think about
> the common cultural background this gives us. We all expect to live in a 3D
> environment, we expect glass to be transparent, [...]

... we can't move through physical objects, we can't fly, ...

I'm just saying the WYTIWYG effect is a subtle effect, to my way of
thinking, not a dramatic one. And the term is so misleading it
clouds up arguments instead of helping to resolve them.

BTW Jani, I only quoted the parts of your message I disagreed with; there
were lots of points there that I thought were fine.

luke

From:	Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 7 Jun 1995 20:54:14 -0700

Message no. 11 I think the WYTIWYG rule should only be applied, as FASA applies it, to
Important Mystical NPCs.
One way you can look at it is, WYTIWYG only works if you *belive*,
utterly and without -any doubt-, that what you're thinking is true. Now,
suppose your mage, just graduating from MIT&T, has been learning all this
time that to summon elementals you have to do this, this, and this. Even
if he thinks, "Well, maybe I can just skip the goat's blood part", he
still -knows- he's doing it 'wrong', and thus he thinks he's doing it wrong,
so it's not going to work. Same with a shaman; if your tribal elders have
taught you the right way to invoke a spirit, you can't arbitrarily decide,
"Hey! I'm gonna summon Bear and make him work for me!" because deep in your
teachings, at the center of the belief that -is- your magic ability, you
know you can't do this. You think you *might* be able to, but you have to
be -sure-, and the only way to do that is to have it work, and it's not
going to, because you don't have the pure belief you need. Any tiny trace
of doubt is going to mess you up.
As for the "mad mage" idea, where the guy is insane and so believes
that he's a god, or whatever; I'd play it as either 1. If you're mad, you
can't properly channel the spell forces and you're going to run into
trouble or 2.Madness doesn't qualify as belief necessary to fuel magic or
3.Madness is a surface thing, while magic comes from, and is dependent
upon, the inner subconcious and experience that knows better.
Important Mystical NPCs have been brought up in a different time,
a different system, different ways of using magic and different worldviews
of belief. This option should not be available to players. (Esp. since
some Important Mystical NPCs are -way- old and thus have thousands of
years worth of seeing their magic work the way they think it should...)

Anyway, not meaning this to be definitive or the official game
way of doing it, just my own thoughts on the matter and how I might deal
with it if in came up in a game I was running. Don't bother to flame me....

-E

From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 16:39:19 +1000

Message no. 12 Eve Forward wrote:

> I think the WYTIWYG rule should only be applied, as FASA applies it, to
> Important Mystical NPCs.

An excellent idea.

> As for the "mad mage" idea, where the guy is insane and so believes
> that he's a god, or whatever; I'd play it as either 1. If you're mad, you
> can't properly channel the spell forces and you're going to run into
> trouble or 2.Madness doesn't qualify as belief necessary to fuel magic or
> 3.Madness is a surface thing, while magic comes from, and is dependent
> upon, the inner subconcious and experience that knows better.

None of these convince me as good reasons for stopping the mad mage
from munchkinising through WYTIWYG: 1) Removes too much potential
for colour and drama, 2) Sounds too much like an arbitrary kludge,
and 3) just sounds wrong - madness can go as deep as you like.

The real `fix' is to stop using the term WYTIWYG - it's too misleading.
It's not what you think is what you get. It's just that a few (very
few) of the rules of magic are limited by people's belief systems.

That doesn't mean that what you believe will work, will work.

That's why the term WYTIWYG is so wrong.

FASA are talking about a more subtle effect, and people have mislabelled
it WYTIWYG and started using it to `explain' all sorts of things which
deserve a real explanation, not this cop-out one.

luke

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:05:04 +0100

Message no. 13 On Wed, 7 Jun 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> I like this sort of explanation too. So if you are interested we (Gurth and
> I) would be more than pleased to have such a section in the next sourcebook.
Kewl!!! :)

> > (Sorry but I have a heavy World of Darkness/ SR crossover thing :)
>
> I understand :) But I realy think that the mage-gene explanation
> is a very good one. After all we know for sure that all the meta-human
> phenotypes are the result of a special gene that reacts to the presence of
> magic (Changeling).
But the bit about the Meta Gene being a Tech lie would support the
WYTIWYG theory <ducks> :) :) :)

> And BTW once again :) Read "Nospheratu" if you like the Ways and the
Paths,
> lotsa neato stuff there.
Geez, I really should get round to reading those novels, I've got Night's
Pawn to Nosferatu to read still. I have this compulsion to buy LOADS of
books, but I'm a very slow reader and so take ages to get through them :(

> > By the way, I'm beginning to have soem thoughts on what happens when a
> > spell is not calibrated right and overshoots the Divide or falls short,
> > where does the spell go? Maybe it enters into a parallel dimension, very
> > similar to our own except a very few subtle changes -ala Amber's Shadow
> > Earths or Luther Arkwright's Parallels.
>
> This is Mage the Ascension stuff aint it ?
>
No, I think this could add a new dimension (pardon the pun) to the SR
universe, if the GM and players want to. And besides it sorta fits in
with Bottled Demon where they say it draws its power from astral space
but goes off a tangent -maybe its not referring to teh metaplanes but
instead to one of these places 'caught in the Divide'. Just some thoughts
anyway :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Andy Butcher <Fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:06:51 +0100

Message no. 14 The Digital Mage wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Jun 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:
>> WYTIWYG means What You Think Is What You and was coined a coupla
>> months back during a somewhat intense discussion about HB.
>> Anyway it means that the magician projects his own perception of
>> reality (or what he expects from reality) on the energies
>> of the astral thereby giving himself the ability to use those
>> energies to alter "real reality". The problem is that people
>> also take the limitations of their perception with them
>> thereby limiting their own selves.
>
>Yeah, I sort of got that impression later on, and while i agree its a
>factor it seems that lately its has been the non-specific answer to any
>magic question -which I feel is a cop out, I want other theories, the
>theories that these *Mages* have which in turn make them think they can
>only do X and not anything more. IE WYTIWYG may be the limit of magic
>(and when you break that barrier to a large degree it becomes magicK (too
>much Mage:tA :) )but I want the reasons why mages think like that in the
>first place -there must be a reason.

I thought I'd just add my 0.02 ¥ to this particular issue, if only because=
I
seem to be the only other person willing to read such long posts ;)

As far as I saw it, adepts (and the restrictions on them) are explained by
the nature of magical ability in ShadowRun - it's a genetic trait, and
you're either born with it or not. Taking this a step further (and judging
from the novels) it would seem that you're either born a mage or a shaman or
whatever. So a sorcery adept is born with the ability to cast spells, but
their 'magus factor' (the genetic structure that gives magical ability) is
incomplete, so they lack the ability to astrally percieve and so on.
Likewise a shamanic adept is born with their powers - just those, no more
and no less.

This could have some interesting ramifications for elemental adepts,
concerning the nature of the elemental forces of the Sixth World, but
judging by Earthdawn's 'True' Elements, it should still fit.

Hows that for a logical, story based explanation?

BTW, I think that WYTIWYG is a big cop out as well. Why can't we just accept
that some things simply 'are'? Gravity exists, but we don't really
understand how or why it works beyond a theoretical level. Yet I don't feel
the need to 'explain' it by saying WYTIWYG - I just accept that gravity
'is', in much the same way that I just accept that glass 'is' transparent on
the astral plane.

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed
PC Gamer Magazine | or not, you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry=
Ford

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:11:49 +0100

Message no. 15 On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Luke Kendall wrote:

> The real `fix' is to stop using the term WYTIWYG - it's too misleading.
> It's not what you think is what you get. It's just that a few (very
> few) of the rules of magic are limited by people's belief systems.
Then perhaps if someone feels they absolutely must use the term perhaps
they could change it to WYBIWYG ie What You *Believe* (on a most
fundamental and subconscious level) Is What You Get.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:09:11 +0100

Message no. 16 On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Andy Butcher wrote:

> As far as I saw it, adepts (and the restrictions on them) are explained by
> the nature of magical ability in ShadowRun - it's a genetic trait, and
> you're either born with it or not. Taking this a step further (and judging
> from the novels) it would seem that you're either born a mage or a shaman or
> whatever. So a sorcery adept is born with the ability to cast spells, but
> their 'magus factor' (the genetic structure that gives magical ability) is
> incomplete, so they lack the ability to astrally percieve and so on.
> Likewise a shamanic adept is born with their powers - just those, no more
> and no less.
>
> Hows that for a logical, story based explanation?
Well thats the sort of thing I was after, a specific in-game reason which
limits power, or whatever. Although I was originally talking about spells
and we sort of drifted, and I got too much into Mage and so started
extolling the virtues of WYTIWYG, when actually I don't like that being a
reason for magic (not Magick :)

> BTW, I think that WYTIWYG is a big cop out as well. Why can't we just accept
> that some things simply 'are'? Gravity exists, but we don't really
> understand how or why it works beyond a theoretical level. Yet I don't feel
> the need to 'explain' it by saying WYTIWYG - I just accept that gravity
> 'is', in much the same way that I just accept that glass 'is' transparent on
> the astral plane.
Too true!

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Fri, 9 Jun 1995 13:00:27 +0200

Message no. 17 > > I think the WYTIWYG rule should only be applied, as FASA applies it, to
> > Important Mystical NPCs.
>
> An excellent idea.

*Sigh* Would someone care to explain to me why everyone (or at least lotsa
people) seem to think that WYTIWYG is meant for player use ? I have repeatedly
emphasised that its only a background idea, used to interpret and explain
the magic system as presented by FASA.

> > As for the "mad mage" idea, where the guy is insane and so
believes
> > that he's a god, or whatever; I'd play it as either 1. If you're mad, you
> > can't properly channel the spell forces and you're going to run into
> > trouble or 2.Madness doesn't qualify as belief necessary to fuel magic or
> > 3.Madness is a surface thing, while magic comes from, and is dependent
> > upon, the inner subconcious and experience that knows better.
>
> None of these convince me as good reasons for stopping the mad mage
> from munchkinising through WYTIWYG: 1) Removes too much potential
> for colour and drama, 2) Sounds too much like an arbitrary kludge,
> and 3) just sounds wrong - madness can go as deep as you like.

The fix is simple. A "mad magician" would definitely qualify for
a different world view. B?ut I see him as the equivalent of a samurai
with more that 6 points of essence in cyberware. He is simply out of
bounds and therefore should not be used as a PC. Period.

> The real `fix' is to stop using the term WYTIWYG - it's too misleading.
> It's not what you think is what you get. It's just that a few (very
> few) of the rules of magic are limited by people's belief systems.
>
> That doesn't mean that what you believe will work, will work.
> That's why the term WYTIWYG is so wrong.

What you believe will certainly work. Albeit within the limits
of the possible and with the fact in mind that you canot consiously
change your world view.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Fri, 9 Jun 1995 12:51:57 +0200

Message no. 18 > I think the WYTIWYG rule should only be applied, as FASA applies it, to
> Important Mystical NPCs.
[MUNCH] [MUNCH] [MUNCH]

We wholy agree. WYTIWYG is not meant as a backdoor to allow players
do weird and illegal stuff just because they claim to believ in it.
No one - I repeat *no*one* - can change their subconsious and that
is where the worldview resides. In other words, its impossible to use
WYTIWYG to use magic in a different way.

> Anyway, not meaning this to be definitive or the official game
> way of doing it, just my own thoughts on the matter and how I might deal
> with it if in came up in a game I was running. Don't bother to flame me....

That was no flame, just a comment :)

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Fri, 9 Jun 1995 12:49:09 +0200

Message no. 19 > > But there [should] be someway to keep them playable, I mean they managed it
> > with hermetics and shamans, A mage believes that the only way he can
> > conjure a spirit is through long rituals while a shaman believes he can
> > just conjure one up in a second [...]
>
> But nature spirits and elementals have many differences. There is no
> way, using the `explanation' WYTIWYG to neatly explain why a shaman
> couldn't summon up spirits that were elementals, or vice versa.

You are wrong because hermetics that have managed to overcome the
block do summon spirits. Living proof are The Ways and The Paths of
Tir NaN Og as well as that Zessler (whats his name) dude from Prime
Runners. I agree that this is not something for players to try at
home :) but its nevertheless possible.
BTW Shamans could theoretically (but only theoretically, apart from
NPCs and weird cases like the ways and the paths) summon elementals
too.

> > This might sound prety rediculus, but just stop for a seconds and think about
> > the common cultural background this gives us. We all expect to live in a 3D
> > environment, we expect glass to be transparent, [...]
>
> ... we can't move through physical objects, we can't fly, ...

Yes, but the average John Doe has always assosiated flying with
magic. Think of all the witches with their broomsticks. And astral
projection as a part of urban lore, definitely allows passing through
walls.

> BTW Jani, I only quoted the parts of your message I disagreed with; there
> were lots of points there that I thought were fine.

We do agree ocasionaly dont we ? :)

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Fri, 9 Jun 1995 14:22:11 +0200

Message no. 20 > I thought I'd just add my 0.02 ¥ to this particular issue, if only because=
> I
> seem to be the only other person willing to read such long posts ;)

Well we did have a rather impressing amount of posts in the last few
days :)

> As far as I saw it, adepts (and the restrictions on them) are explained by
> the nature of magical ability in ShadowRun - it's a genetic trait, and
> you're either born with it or not. Taking this a step further (and judging
> from the novels) it would seem that you're either born a mage or a shaman or
> whatever. So a sorcery adept is born with the ability to cast spells, but
> their 'magus factor' (the genetic structure that gives magical ability) is
> incomplete, so they lack the ability to astrally percieve and so on.
> Likewise a shamanic adept is born with their powers - just those, no more
> and no less.

I fully agree with you. However there are some things that still need
some explaining as far as I am concerned i.e. the "synchronising auras"
ability of sorcerer adepts. Or the "intelligent choise" of elements by
ememental/shamanic adepts (if thats not WYTIWYG then I dont know what is).
But on the whole the gene thing is a very acceptable and logical
explanation.

> BTW, I think that WYTIWYG is a big cop out as well. Why can't we just accept
> that some things simply 'are'? Gravity exists, but we don't really
> understand how or why it works beyond a theoretical level. Yet I don't feel
> the need to 'explain' it by saying WYTIWYG - I just accept that gravity
> 'is', in much the same way that I just accept that glass 'is' transparent on
> the astral plane.

To that I can only say that you have a very different worldview than I :)
To me its not enough to know that gravity "simply exists" I want to know about
fields and stuff. And this is what WYTIWYG is all about, knowledge.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Tue, 13 Jun 1995 00:39:49 +1000

Message no. 21 Someone said:

> > BTW, I think that WYTIWYG is a big cop out as well. Why can't we just accept
> > that some things simply 'are'? Gravity exists, but we don't really
> > understand how or why it works beyond a theoretical level. [...]

Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.uni-bremen.de> wrote:

> To that I can only say that you have a very different worldview than I :)
> To me its not enough to know that gravity "simply exists" I want to know
about
> fields and stuff. And this is what WYTIWYG is all about, knowledge.

The trouble is that this thing called WYTIWYG could be used to explain
or justify almost anything. You could always construct a belief system
to justify whatever weird magic effect you liked.

My main gripe with it is that the term is cute but misleading.

Since FASA haven't spelled out what's really possible and what's not,
you can't actually use the notion of the Belief Effect to really
explain much. I don't see how you can equate it to a scientific
theory at all.

luke

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:28:49 +0200

Message no. 22 > > To that I can only say that you have a very different worldview than I :)
> > To me its not enough to know that gravity "simply exists" I want to
know about
> > fields and stuff. And this is what WYTIWYG is all about, knowledge.
>
> The trouble is that this thing called WYTIWYG could be used to explain
> or justify almost anything. You could always construct a belief system
> to justify whatever weird magic effect you liked.

Agreed, but as I said once too often. The only canonical world-view
is the one described in the sourcebooks published by FASA.

> My main gripe with it is that the term is cute but misleading.
>
> Since FASA haven't spelled out what's really possible and what's not,
> you can't actually use the notion of the Belief Effect to really
> explain much. I don't see how you can equate it to a scientific
> theory at all.

Well its a bit of a creativistic thing, but there is a scientific basis
for it, even in real life.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 15 Jun 1995 22:52:33 +1000

Message no. 23 Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.uni-bremen.de> wrote:

> Agreed, but as I said once too often. The only canonical world-view
> is the one described in the sourcebooks published by FASA.

By which I take it you mean that it's not What You Think Is What You Get.
It's: What The Majority Believes Is What Mages Get.
(Except when the mages have started believing something else, like
being able to move through concrete.)

> Well its a bit of a creativistic thing, but there is a scientific basis
> for it, even in real life.

I think we have very different ideas of what makes a scientific theory.
I know I'm using the one defined in the normal science text books, though.

But this particular tangent of our argument has become so general,
it would take tens of thousands of Kb of ASCII communications to sort
it out, and I really doubt that anyone on the list is that interested,
eh? :-)

luke

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 15 Jun 1995 17:41:09 +0100

Message no. 24 On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Luke Kendall wrote:

> > Agreed, but as I said once too often. The only canonical world-view
> > is the one described in the sourcebooks published by FASA.
>
> By which I take it you mean that it's not What You Think Is What You Get.
> It's: What The Majority Believes Is What Mages Get.
Taking a note from Mage:The Ascension, we can see that for a mage to do
anything other than what the majority believe (the dominant paradigm) is
possible (which is anything other than the normal SR magic) the mage must
have an incredible will and tons of enlightenment -and I'm not talking
loads of willpower and sorcery skill I'm talking knowledge of Reality
itself.

Basically SR mage player characters do not have this will and
enlightenment -only the mad (perhaps) and people like Harlequin do (same
thing really :) It is very difficult to impose one's own paradigm over
that of the population. Changes to the dominant paradigm are slow to
come about (ie whenever FASA release a new sourcebook) and only can be
routinely exploited after a lot of practice and "proof" that the new
"power" can work. This proof comes through credible texts,
demonstrations and so forth.

The reason why when the awakening occurred the dominant paradigm changed
so fast was because the emergence of the new dragons was *televised* live
all across the globe. In my SR/WoD crossover that televising was no
accident, it was the work of The Kids of McLuhan whose motto is:
"The Ascension *will* be televised"

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Andy Butcher <fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:27:03 +0100

Message no. 25 First of all, could I suggest that we try limiting the posts on this topic
to one idea at a time? I'm getting horribly confused having to scroll
through huge messages covering lots of points - I'd much rather read five
short posts (one about each idea) than a single huge long one. That way
there might be some more input from other list members as well, which could
only be a good thing (IMHO).

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed
PC Gamer Magazine | or not, you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford

From:	Andy Butcher <fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:09:02 +0100

Message no. 26 Some time ago I wrote (I've been having trouble with my mailer):

> BTW, I think that WYTIWYG is a big cop out as well. Why can't we just accept
> that some things simply 'are'? Gravity exists, but we don't really
> understand how or why it works beyond a theoretical level. [...]

To which Jani Fikouras replied:

>> To that I can only say that you have a very different worldview than I :)
>> To me its not enough to know that gravity "simply exists" I want to
know
about
>> fields and stuff. And this is what WYTIWYG is all about, knowledge.

I don't think I explained myself very clearly (no surprise there ;)

What I meant was that IMHO glass is transparent on the astral for a real
(meta)physical reason - sure, one we don't understand, but a real reason
nonetheless. Using WYTIWYG, on the other hand, is saying 'Glass is
transparent on the astral because everyone believes that it is', which is a
different thing entirely. I don't think that WYTIWYG is actually about
knowledge - to me it's about quick and easy 'explanations' for things that
we simply don't have enough information to understand. I'd rather we just
accept that glass is transparent until we get enough information about the
Shadowrun magic system to understand why it is (and this could well never
happen).

While it's a fact that someone's personal beliefs affect the way they use
and relate to magic (after all, FASA admitted it in Harlequin's Back), I
don't think that WYTIWYG is what they had in mind. Unfortunately, explaining
how I see it is going to drag this message into some potentially tricky
philisophical waters, so don't say I didn't warn you...

The way I see it, magic in SR can be compared to real-world physics. The
real universe works in a certain way - it has its own realm of possibilities
- and physics is an attempt to understand how (and to a certain extent, why)
it works. In the same way, magic in SR works in a certain way - it has it's
own limitations, laws and processes. Magicians in SR are much like the first
physicists - they're trying to understand how magic works, what laws it
follows and so on. Unfortunately, being human, they come to this study with
their own preconceptions and theories, and try to make them fit, which
clours their approach. This is how belief affects magic - it affects what
people try to do with it. Whether something can or can't be done is fixed
due to the nature of magic in the SR universe, but whether or not somone
even thinks of trying it (or can work out how to do it) is another matter
entirely.

As an example, teleportation is possible in SR magic - it's just that no
contemporary magician has worked out how to do it yet. Harlequin has both a
far greater understanding of how magic works, and a different set of
preconceptions to contemporary mages, so he has worked out how to teleport.
Eventually we'll probabably work it out as well.

As another example, glass is transparent to astral energy. Contemporary
magicians have noticed this, but they don't know why it should be. Still,
the fact remains that glass is transparent - whether someone believes it or
not - because of the nature of astral energy in SR's magic system.

As yet another example, watchers can be summoned in SR'd magic system. The
reason that people weren't doing so for some time wasn't that no-one
believed in them, so they didn't exist, but that no-one had worked out how
to summon them - the ability was already there, but no-one had discovered it.

These are very subtle differences in some cases, I admit, but no less
important for it. Basically I think that the phrase 'WYTIWYG' is both
misleading and of very little use other than as a 'cheap fix' way of
avoiding saying 'I don't know'.

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed
PC Gamer Magazine | or not, you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 1995 18:02:48 +0200

Message no. 27 > First of all, could I suggest that we try limiting the posts on this topic
> to one idea at a time? I'm getting horribly confused having to scroll
> through huge messages covering lots of points - I'd much rather read five
> short posts (one about each idea) than a single huge long one. That way
> there might be some more input from other list members as well, which could
> only be a good thing (IMHO).

The thread has died down more or less, but I'd be happy to accomodate
you if you have any questions left :)

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 1995 18:32:22 +0200

Message no. 28 > Some time ago I wrote (I've been having trouble with my mailer):
>
> > BTW, I think that WYTIWYG is a big cop out as well. Why can't we just accept
> > that some things simply 'are'? Gravity exists, but we don't really
> > understand how or why it works beyond a theoretical level. [...]
>
> To which Jani Fikouras replied:
>
> >> To that I can only say that you have a very different worldview than I :)
> >> To me its not enough to know that gravity "simply exists" I want
to know
> about
> >> fields and stuff. And this is what WYTIWYG is all about, knowledge.
>
> I don't think I explained myself very clearly (no surprise there ;)
>
> What I meant was that IMHO glass is transparent on the astral for a real
> (meta)physical reason - sure, one we don't understand, but a real reason
> nonetheless. Using WYTIWYG, on the other hand, is saying 'Glass is
> transparent on the astral because everyone believes that it is', which is a
> different thing entirely.

Ok, I can see how someone could have a problem with that, but the thing
is you got it all wrong :)

WYTIWYG does not say that glass is transparent because everyone things it
is. WYTIWYG says that properties like transparency are totaly irrelevant
to the astral, we nevertheless could not imagine a world without them and
so we warp our perception so that we actually do see them. Let me explain,
try to imagine an object that is and is not transparent at the same time.
A thing like that is ludicrous to us as we grew up in a reality where
stuff like that is integral to the workings of the world as a whole.
Now transport yourself to a reality where objects dont have to be
transparent or opaque and now try to understand what that would do to
your way of seeing things.

This is what WYTIWYG is all about, it sez that magic in general and
specifically the astral plane, place very few restrictions on us (they
are there neverthelsee). The reason why we are so restricted is our
own perception, we ignore the boundless oportunities and restrict
ourselves to a minimun that we feel comfortable with. We act like
people that won the lottery and keep living like poor slobs because
they dont know what to do with the money :)

> While it's a fact that someone's personal beliefs affect the way they use
> and relate to magic (after all, FASA admitted it in Harlequin's Back), I
> don't think that WYTIWYG is what they had in mind. Unfortunately, explaining
> how I see it is going to drag this message into some potentially tricky
> philisophical waters, so don't say I didn't warn you...

Harlequin has a greater understanding when it comes to the workings
of magic. He probably realises that the energies of the astral can be
channeled to do much more than the magicians of our or even his time
realised. And in the couse of the millenia he has spent experimenting
he probably found out ways to get more out of that limitless pool of
power.

> The way I see it, magic in SR can be compared to real-world physics. The
> real universe works in a certain way - it has its own realm of possibilities
> - and physics is an attempt to understand how (and to a certain extent, why)
> it works. In the same way, magic in SR works in a certain way - it has it's
> own limitations, laws and processes.

I wholy agree, the problem is that unlike conventional scince, magic
requires that you use your brain to achieve some results. This means
that everything you do has to go through the complex maze of your
perception. If we could construct tools to control magic, we would
find out the true limits, until then we have to content ourselves with
our imaginary ones.

> Magicians in SR are much like the first
> physicists - they're trying to understand how magic works, what laws it
> follows and so on. Unfortunately, being human, they come to this study with
> their own preconceptions and theories, and try to make them fit, which
> clours their approach. This is how belief affects magic - it affects what
> people try to do with it. Whether something can or can't be done is fixed
> due to the nature of magic in the SR universe, but whether or not somone
> even thinks of trying it (or can work out how to do it) is another matter
> entirely.

Exactly what I mean. The problem here is that practiciang magicians
use their willpower/brain/intelligence to channel magic and that means
that all these subjective factors play major roles in the way the
magician percieves what he is actaually doing.

A scientist watching an apple fall can be sure that he is not responcible
for this even. So he starts to search for the actuall reason. However a
magician that sees a piece of glass in the astral for the first time (not
through physical eyes, but through his brain) automaticaly interpretes this
event (and its consequences) in the most familiar/convienient way, namely
this is glass <fact> -> this is transparent <fairly certain assuption>.

> As an example, teleportation is possible in SR magic - it's just that no
> contemporary magician has worked out how to do it yet. Harlequin has both a
> far greater understanding of how magic works, and a different set of
> preconceptions to contemporary mages, so he has worked out how to teleport.
> Eventually we'll probabably work it out as well.

Definitely.

> As another example, glass is transparent to astral energy. Contemporary
> magicians have noticed this, but they don't know why it should be. Still,
> the fact remains that glass is transparent - whether someone believes it or
> not - because of the nature of astral energy in SR's magic system.
>
> As yet another example, watchers can be summoned in SR'd magic system. The
> reason that people weren't doing so for some time wasn't that no-one
> believed in them, so they didn't exist, but that no-one had worked out how
> to summon them - the ability was already there, but no-one had discovered it.

Agreed.

> These are very subtle differences in some cases, I admit, but no less
> important for it. Basically I think that the phrase 'WYTIWYG' is both
> misleading and of very little use other than as a 'cheap fix' way of
> avoiding saying 'I don't know'.

I'll be waiting for your reply. I hope I managed to explain it right
this time :)

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	robert frazine <shade@*****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 1995 16:28:21 -0400

Message no. 29 In argreement with the idea that Wytiwyg is a cop out...keep in mind
that magical theorists have only had since 2011...to experiment with
the laws of magic...

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: SR's Poor Magic System, IMHO!
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:27:27 +0200

Message no. 30 > In argreement with the idea that Wytiwyg is a cop out...keep in mind
> that magical theorists have only had since 2011...to experiment with
> the laws of magic...

This is an argument in favour of WYTIWYG. If scientists only had 40 odd
years to experiment then its only natural that there are lotsa things
we know nothing about.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

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