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Message no. 1
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:03:43 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:

->Matt C. didst sayeth:
->
->I think they've shot themselves in the foot...again. There are numerous
->references to how dark SR is supposed to be, and how screwed up everything
->is, but it feels like they were too afraid to offend anyone to do it right.
->After the blurb on the back cover, having karma rewards for doing The Right
->Thing, and having every existing module center around helping the underdog,
->or stopping some great evil is self defeating.

If the game was all about shooting people and getting the loot and
who backstabbed who and blowing up innocents.... munchies would be playing
it exclusively. The world in and of itself can be a dark, dismal,
depressing place to be, but the characters have been placed in a role by
the powers that be (read: GM and players) to make a difference in that
dark, dismal, depressing world. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they
fail, sometimes they REALLY screw up and blow everything they've been
doing to Hell and half-acre, but at least the human spirit itself keeps
trying. I believe that's more along the lines of the world of Shadowrun:
The world will degenerate into a horrible, miserable world unless we
remember that we all need to work on it together.
Geesh, That sounded way too mushy. ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 2
From: Andreas Hausjell <a.h.a@***.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:57:27 +0200
> On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:
>
> Matt C. didst sayeth:
> ->
> I think they've shot themselves in the foot...again. There are numerous
> references to how dark SR is supposed to be, and how screwed up
everything
> is, but it feels like they were too afraid to offend anyone to do it
right.
> After the blurb on the back cover, having karma rewards for doing The
Right
> Thing, and having every existing module center around helping the
underdog,
> or stopping some great evil is self defeating.
It's the job of the GM, to make the world bad sometimes. Give your players
a really bad run. (for instance: Johnson, we need this place to build our
new XY, but there are some people, who think they would like to live there.
30.000 ??? until Monday??

---
Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:54:40 -0500
<major snippage>

> Geesh, That sounded way too mushy. ]:-)

Maybe, but that's exactly how I see it, too.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 4
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:04:22 -0500
----------
> From: Andreas Hausjell <a.h.a@***.NET>

> It's the job of the GM, to make the world bad sometimes. Give your
players
> a really bad run. (for instance: Johnson, we need this place to build
our
> new XY, but there are some people, who think they would like to live
there.
> 30.000 ??? until Monday??

Actually, the groups I've played with don't take jobs that interfere with
their code... they read FoF and felt that was a good idea. Besides, its
easier to put moral characters in a difficult position than immoral or
amoral characters.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"
Message no. 5
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:16:45 -0400
David Foster didst sayeth:

>On Tue, 25 Aug 1998, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:
>->Matt C. didst sayeth:
>->
>->I think they've shot themselves in the foot...again. There are numerous
>->references to how dark SR is supposed to be, and how screwed up
everything
>->is, but it feels like they were too afraid to offend anyone to do it
right.
>->After the blurb on the back cover, having karma rewards for doing The
Right
>->Thing, and having every existing module center around helping the
underdog,
>->or stopping some great evil is self defeating.
>
> If the game was all about shooting people and getting the loot and
>who backstabbed who and blowing up innocents.... munchies would be playing
>it exclusively. The world in and of itself can be a dark, dismal,


No. Why does it seem that anyone who doesn't want to play a basically noble
character is called a munchkin? Anyone can be a good person, but putting
your moral convictions aside out of necesity then feeling guilty about it
later takes a little more effort.

>depressing place to be, but the characters have been placed in a role by
>the powers that be (read: GM and players) to make a difference in that
>dark, dismal, depressing world. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they
>fail, sometimes they REALLY screw up and blow everything they've been
>doing to Hell and half-acre, but at least the human spirit itself keeps
>trying. I believe that's more along the lines of the world of Shadowrun:
>The world will degenerate into a horrible, miserable world unless we
>remember that we all need to work on it together.


Case in point. Underground. The players are all bioware vatjob ex soldiers
in a world where their enhancements make them outcasts. The world is so
gritty that cannibalism is legal, and Tasty Ghoul has surpassed McDonald's.
However, the characters still exist purely to make it a better world.

> Geesh, That sounded way too mushy. ]:-)


It was. But it sums up SR perfectly, and that's my point.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 6
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:25:17 -0400
> Case in point. Underground. The players are all bioware vatjob ex
> soldiers
> in a world where their enhancements make them outcasts. The world is
> so
> gritty that cannibalism is legal, and Tasty Ghoul has surpassed
> McDonald's.
> However, the characters still exist purely to make it a better world.
>
Well hell human can't be much worse than the nutrislop
that Mickie D's is servin up already.

> > Geesh, That sounded way too mushy. ]:-)
>
I'll back this one too. Preach on brother.
Message no. 7
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:15:54 -0400
I'd like to say that at least in my games/world/whatever, the
shadowrunners are not nice people. Jett is a survivor of gang rape and
torture that was basically "just for fun", and it messed her up. For a
while, she was addicted to killing because it was the only way she felt
in control. And her way of "making the world a better place" was to go
out and vivisect a couple rapists for kicks.

Winter, my psycho assassin/runner, strangles prostitutes in his spare
time, although he's nowhere near as altruistic as Jett.

Trinity's character Haze is another example of not-nice people...

I think that while there are "good" runners, most are simple
capitalists. And some are just messed up.

A simple example. In my bug hunt campaign, after retrieving the missing
scientist my players were paid to find, most of them dropped out. Only a
couple are interested in exterminating the rouch hive in Seattle...they
weren't paid to kill bugs, so they won't kill bugs, even if it's the
"right" thing to do.

I think the game DOES need to be dark and gritty. The world isn't a nice
place, and most of the people in it aren't nice, either. I sort of treat
my characters and campaigns as a matter of: "Well, we aren't the good
guys, but we're the lesser evil, so we're the good guys by default. Hey,
wait a second, what does being the good guy pay, anyway?"


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 8
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:31:08 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/1998 6:55:40 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

> Geesh, That sounded way too mushy. ]:-)

And all together the Truth of it. Yeah I know, I snipped big post for just
one line of reply. I know I capitalized Truth, and that makes Erik nervous ;P
But it the Truth of it.

-K (who just came off of watching Contact all the way through again on HBO)
Message no. 9
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:57:44 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 3:17:46 PM AST, zmjett@*********.COM writes:

> I think the game DOES need to be dark and gritty. The world isn't a nice
> place, and most of the people in it aren't nice, either. I sort of treat
> my characters and campaigns as a matter of: "Well, we aren't the good
> guys, but we're the lesser evil, so we're the good guys by default. Hey,
> wait a second, what does being the good guy pay, anyway?"
>
>

I agree the game does need to be dark and gritty but CP goes to the point of
just plain hopelessness. In CP its a dog eat dog world and your wearing
milkbone underwear.
Just about all of my characters fall into the I'm no angel but I am loads
better than the devil around the corner category too. I can't play a goody 2
shoes. I just can't. I wouldn't like playing a psycho who strangles
prostitutes in his spare time either but that would be easier for me than a
Dudley Do-Right type.
Message no. 10
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:09:07 -0400
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: SR Style: (Was Re: [SR3] Racism)

> I think that while there are "good" runners, most are simple
> capitalists. And some are just messed up.

I agree totally with you Jett. My one character in Maria Mercurial
decided that the best way to babysit her was to keep her hit up
with a narcojet. Kept her out cold the entire time.

Also left the entire team in hot water (on purpose) during the initial
snatch from her apartment. Not the nicest person in the world, that
one.


--Droopy

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