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Message no. 1
From: "Ahern T. Stephan" <MAXIM@****.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:49:36 -0600
How come people are calling Shadowrun a fantasy game. It's not fantasy,
it's more CYBERPUNK. If this is a flame, sorry.
Message no. 2
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 20:50:14 EST
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:49:36 -0600 (CST), MAXIM@****.Mankato.MSUS.EDU
>>>>> said:

MAXIM> How come people are calling Shadowrun a fantasy game. It's not
MAXIM> fantasy, it's more CYBERPUNK. If this is a flame, sorry.

Cyberpunk is about technology advancing so fast that humanity can't keep
up, leaving the common masses in a kind of urban shell-shock. If this is
missing from your game, your game isn't cyberpunk. Both Shadowrun and
CP2020 suffer from the fact that their published material seems to be
pushing a contest to see who can get the biggest gun. This isn't cyberpunk,
not even close.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
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Always remember, no matter where you go, there you are. --Buckaroo Banzai
Message no. 3
From: Ahern T Stephan <maxim@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 19:59:29 -0600
On Wed, 17 Nov 1993, Richard Pieri wrote:

> >>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1993 15:49:36 -0600 (CST),
MAXIM@****.Mankato.MSUS.EDU
> >>>>> said:
>
> MAXIM> How come people are calling Shadowrun a fantasy game. It's not
> MAXIM> fantasy, it's more CYBERPUNK. If this is a flame, sorry.

> This isn't cyberpunk, not even close.

Gotta love Unix. Anyway, point taken. But is Shadowrun Fantasy?
Message no. 4
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:15:39 EST
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Nov 1993 19:59:29 -0600 (CST), Ahern T Stephan
>>>>> <maxim@*******.mankato.msus.edu> said:

maxim> Gotta love Unix. Anyway, point taken. But is Shadowrun Fantasy?

Depends on how you define "fantasy". By my definition, fantasy includes
just about any kind of fiction out there.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
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It's hard to bargle nawdle zouss/With all these marbles in my mouth
--`Weird Al' Yankovic, `Smells Like Nirvana'
Message no. 5
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:02:38 -0600
On Wed, 17 Nov 1993, Ahern T Stephan wrote:

> Gotta love Unix. Anyway, point taken. But is Shadowrun Fantasy?

UNIX rules. 'nuff said. :-)

--

On the subject of defining where Shadowrun fits in as a literary genre:

It's obviously not fantasy as there is too much technological toys -n-
stuff. So, it is science fiction.

Now, is it Sci-Fi, or a sub-genre of sci-fi, cyberpunk (and this is
cyberpunk as defined I'd guess in the Gibsonian method).

Yes, I think is set up with at least a sifficient background and social
setting to consider it to be Gibsonian Cyberpunk. Not just the matrix,
but also the oppressive corp structure and, as one person I believe put
it, the fact that society is future shocked into virtual numbness.

But, SR has one benefit (well, this might be questionable) over raw
Gibsonian Cyberpunk. It intermingles in elements of classical fantasy,
non-human critters, as well as magic. It is a hybrid of genres which
sets it apart for most other Gibsonian RPGs.

So, to sum, IMHO.

No, it is not Fantasy.
Yes, it is Sci-Fi
Yes it is Gibsonian Cyberpunk
Yes it has elements of Fantasy.

(as a side not, both Ahren and I are taking a class this quarter on
Fantasy and I assume working off the same definitions.)

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
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Message no. 6
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:17:59 +1100
MAXIM> How come people are calling Shadowrun a fantasy game. It's not
MAXIM> fantasy, it's more CYBERPUNK. If this is a flame, sorry.

Rat> Cyberpunk is about technology advancing so fast that humanity can't keep
Rat> up, leaving the common masses in a kind of urban shell-shock. If this is
Rat> missing from your game, your game isn't cyberpunk. Both Shadowrun and
Rat> CP2020 suffer from the fact that their published material seems to be
Rat> pushing a contest to see who can get the biggest gun. This isn't
Rat> cyberpunk, not even close.

That's _your_ definition of Cyberpunk. Mine doesn't require urban shell-shock
for the common masses. It requires direct neural linkage to computers,
computers everywhere, that sort of thing. And it's common for cyberpunk to
have dark overtones - corporations or governments gone rogue, etc.

I can't say our group has noticed the `big gun' tendency in Shadowrun -
maybe because we don't play that way, and just filter it out. I'd count
Shadowrun as Cyberpunk w. Magic. I'd class Magic as a bigger distortion
of the world than Cyberpunk'ism. (In my opinion, even FASA don't understand
just how completely it changes everything. One example is how their modules
so often fall apart if you apply magic to solving problems.)

I suspect there are as many definitions of Cyberpunk as there are of Science
Fiction, or Fantasy.

luke@$0.02
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 23:20:34 -0600
>No, it is not Fantasy.
>Yes, it is Sci-Fi
>Yes it is Gibsonian Cyberpunk
>Yes it has elements of Fantasy.

Hmmm. . .I don't see a need to classify it into genre. I thnk Shadowrun is
Shadowrun, and that's all there is to it.

I also agree with Rat and his use of Fantasy in the broad sense of the term.

But what is cyberpunk to you?If you like, send me a response and I'll compile
them into a file. I've been meaning to address this for some time. What
is required for something to be cyberpunk?

Technology: Definitely need technology.

I think that rather than techno-shock, it's the population that drives the
"people" element of cyberpunk. I thought about this before and my class
about the Holocaust has reinforced my thinking: The line between man and
machine is blurring, not literally with bionic replacements, but in function.
This is the first century where people have really been disposable. Starting
with WWI, every major conflict has had an unprecedented level of destruction;
the atomic bomb was a quantum leap in magnitude of destructive capability.
One weapon, no risk of your own troops, and several million enemies killed.

It's not just the bomb that makes people disposable. Look at any statistic
"X million unemployed". "400,000 murdered annually". "X million
homeless".
The numbers are so huge as to be incomprehensible. I think our cognitive
sense of magnitude stops at a certain level and everything thereafter is
"a lot". The numbers become numbers, not people, and that leads to the
alienation that si also integral to cyberpunk. People can't relate to
others outside their immediate society because there are just too many
people.

As for corporations, the matrix, etc. . .well, I have my own ideas about what's
realistic. I don't think governments will be as obviously corrupt or
incompetent as those of some campaigns I've seen. I think corporations will
become more powerful, but I think the idea of corporations fighting traditional
wars is silly. War is bad for busines. What I try to look at is motivation,
and I just don't see much motivation for animosity between a nation and a
company described as extra-territorial, unless there was a specific reason
between Corp A and Nation B.

In fact, my c-punk world is very much the way it is now. Not in the details-
phones are different, cars are different, computers are different-but not
everyone you meet is some arrogant asshole with a gun, or a grudge. I don't
think people, or society, can function that way. Not all of them, anyway.
Things are pretty balanced the way they are now. . .but not exactly the same.

So, what is Cyberpunk to you? If you deem this better fit to USENET, Rob,
then I ask everyone to send their replies to me directly instead of this list.


J Roberson
Message no. 8
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 23:37:44 -0600
On Wed, 17 Nov 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> So, what is Cyberpunk to you? If you deem this better fit to USENET, Rob,
> then I ask everyone to send their replies to me directly instead of this list.

Ok, before I respond to anything else:

Yes, I feel this topic is meaningful to this discussion forum as without
the cyberpunk genre of fiction, SR would not be what it is, and it is
important to define and understand what makes up the genre.

So, post away on this topic, just don't let it degrade into a flame way
or I'll get a little peeved.

nuff said.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 9
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:30:19 EST
>>>>> On Thu, 18 Nov 93 15:17:59 +1100, Luke Kendall
>>>>> <luke@********.canon.oz.au> said:

MAXIM> How come people are calling Shadowrun a fantasy game. It's not
MAXIM> fantasy, it's more CYBERPUNK. If this is a flame, sorry.

Rat> Cyberpunk is about technology advancing so fast that humanity can't
Rat> keep up, leaving the common masses in a kind of urban shell-shock. If
Rat> this is missing from your game, your game isn't cyberpunk. Both
Rat> Shadowrun and CP2020 suffer from the fact that their published
Rat> material seems to be pushing a contest to see who can get the biggest
Rat> gun. This isn't cyberpunk, not even close.

luke> That's _your_ definition of Cyberpunk. Mine doesn't require urban
luke> shell-shock for the common masses. It requires direct neural linkage
luke> to computers, computers everywhere, that sort of thing. And it's
luke> common for cyberpunk to have dark overtones - corporations or
luke> governments gone rogue, etc.

SF has had things like this for a /long/ time; they're nothing new. But
these alone do not make it cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is more than just the toys,
its a kind of style or ambiance. "Bladerunner" is cyberpunk, but there
aren't any netrunners/deckers around; same goes for "Demolition Man". Put
Dashiel Hammet into the early 21st Century; that's cyberpunk.

Dark Future =/= Cyberpunk

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
ask about rat-pgp.el v1.63 PGP Public Key Block available upon request
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I'd rather be a pig than a fascist. --Porco Roso (The Crimson Pig)
Message no. 10
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:52:55 -0500
Shadowrun is future shock. (So is all cyberpunk, really)

How it manifests in your game and what you call it is up to you.

- cks, iconclast
Message no. 11
From: The Reverend <mdb0213@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 22:03:47 -0600
]MAXIM> How come people are calling Shadowrun a fantasy game. It's not
]MAXIM> fantasy, it's more CYBERPUNK. If this is a flame, sorry.
I disagree. There's a WHOLE lot more in SR than just the Cyberpunk feel.
That's the main reason I play SR instead of Cyberpunk. Look at SR. It
DEFINITELY has a sense of humor about it. Cyberpunk doesn't. SR has the
opportunity for heroes, a reason for living, and more. For example, Streets
of Blood (the Jack the Ripper one) is a prime example of Cyberpunk set in the
SR world. I was personally very let down by it. While the book was good, the
"revelations" in the end, IMHO, were NOT suited for SR. I got through, and
said to myself: "If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a book that R. Tal
wouldn't publish, but FASA would." While twisted endings occasionally occur
in SR, they are not the mainstay that CP uses it as. Also, the prime feel in
CP is "Why bother?", whereas SR has a sense of "what can I do?" CP
wants to
take you down, bloodily if it can. SR may not encourage it, but it has a
whole HELL of a lot more options.

]luke> That's _your_ definition of Cyberpunk. Mine doesn't require urban
]luke> shell-shock for the common masses.
However, in the "true" Cyberpunk style, you almost require it. Look at Gibson.
(gosh, I actually mentioned him on THIS list *grin*) Even his so-called
"heroes" have problems living with the world. And outside of the people who
are effectively blind, due to the corp's influence on them, everyone else is
suffering, too. Shock? Oh, yeah.

---
The Reverend "They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained"
Fear the Information Revolution...for it has reached the hands of the strange.
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Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Srun: Fantasy or Cyberpunk, you may also be interested in:

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