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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Mon May 27 20:50:01 2002
In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even office
buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent that everyone
has armed security? What type of security levels do you use in your games?
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Eric Bergstrom)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Mon May 27 21:05:01 2002
On Tuesday, May 28, 2002, at 12:52AM, Bryan Pow <powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz>
wrote:

> In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even office
>buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent that everyone
>has armed security? What type of security levels do you use in your games?

In my game almost every building you can think of at least has a nightwatch man.
If it's a gang hideout then the gang will probabbly be their with weapons. If it is a
small company then there will probabbly be one to three rent-a-cops. And the larger corps
tend to have privatly trained squads to gaurd them. I think it makes sence for most
everyone to have armed security as a minimum in a world were the person breaking in could
have any sort of weapon or possibly throw a fireball at your head.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Mon May 27 21:25:01 2002
Bryan Pow wrote:

> In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even office
> buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent that everyone
> has armed security? What type of security levels do you use in your games?

All really depends on what's in the office building or wherever. Corps are going to have
security relative to the value of the property and its contents, as it costs.

Your standard office block will have things like cameras, motion sensors, low rating chem
sniffers, alarms and hooked into the police or their own security depts. for reaction
services. These are fairly cheap as once paid for they only have to be serviced every so
often. Most places would also probably have minimum wage rent-a-cops, usually with
pistols, sitting in a security room watching the camera monitors, doing occassional
rounds, and checking people coming in and out of the place. Might have wards or really
light magical security measures in place.

For places with more value, you improve the ratings on things like maglocks, card and
biometric security locks etc. The guards are also ikely to be better trained and possibly
armed with shotguns for emergencies. Again, they'll be covered by with the police or
central corp rapid reaction sec squads for emergencies. Will also have a mage on call if
needed. Might have elementals or spirits on patrol if it's the high end of important.

Only for really important buildings with you have guards toting things SMG's or assault
rifles, and even then they probably stay hidden from view until the alarms go off.
Likewise, automated gun turrets, gas trap, and most important of all, magical assets are
reserved for these building as they have the most valuable corp property to protect. Here
you'll have the bleeding edge R&D and the cybered SMG toting sec guards and combat
mages that go with it.

That's a real /general/ overview of how we do it. I'm sure others on the list can give you
better/more detailed ideas.

Simon
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Augustus)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 00:20:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Pow" <powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 4:46 PM
Subject: Standard Security


> In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even office
> buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent that everyone
> has armed security? What type of security levels do you use in your games?

Hiya,

A couple of thoughts on this subject...

This first is... you pretty much gotta go with what works for you and your
party... no matter whether its "realistic" or not. If all your buildings
are fortified strongholds and thats how the group plays and you like it,
then its fine.

The second thought is... check into using other methods of security
(security systems, gun placements, drones, sensors, scanners, etc). It can
actually be more harrowing for the PCs (especially if they are built for
just gunning down security guards and not working through other stuff)

Now on to the subject at hand:

How realistic is it?

Well, since Shadowrun is a fictional universe, its really different for
everybody... you are hailing from New Zealand by your email tag... so
things there are probably different here, and that might be totally
different from other places.

I'm in Canada, and up here, not many security outfits are allowed to arm
their guards with firearms (some are, but most aren't). However, I would
find it hard to beleive if that was the same case in the USA...

But as for security, I worked a couple of years at a government data
center... busy place and highly secure. Security was pretty tight, but alot
of it was electronic... there was always 10-15 guards around guarding the
two entrances to the building and patrolling in and around it. Of all that
though, only 1 guard was armed with a firearm (pistol)... and like I say it
was a high security place (police were pretty handy tho, only like 2 blocks
away).

However, in 2060, soceity has degenerated some... corporations have alot
more worth stealing, and shadowrunning (however rare or common it is in your
world) does exist. For that reason, you would have to presume that all
buildings, even crappy dumps in seedy parts of town, will have some form of
security... either somebody present on site, electronic measures, or a
combination of both.

But, to make things "tough" for the PCs, you don't need to make every
building a secure stronghold with thousands of armed and armoured goons
walking the halls...

IE: if its in the downtown area of a city and its an off site for a larger
corp, they should be able to have securty on site in the event of an alarm
is triggered... along the lines of:
Minor: alarm going off... chance this is just "wind" or something
minor... dispatch a car, it'll be there in 5-10 mins.
Major: alarm going off... definitly breach in security... dispatch a
helicopter, it'll be there in 3-5 mins, and dispatch a car for backup, it'll
be there in 4-8 mins.

That pretty much gives the PCs a chance to blow it and still get out of
there before things go from bad to worse... it keeps the building pretty
secure, and doesn't require on site guards.

On another note tho... if you really want "somebody" there... you can have a
team of riggers working out of the corp HQ and they are all wired into all
the corps outlying buildings... running the security system, drones, etc...
so again, nobody is onsite, but there is drones, gun turrets, etc... and in
the event that the PCs are a little too tough for whats there now,
additional resources can be allocated from nearby sites (drones flown in,
security guards coming in by car or helicopter, elementals being sent over
from HQ, etc)


Hopefully that provides some insight into the matter...

Clint
Augustus
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 04:20:05 2002
>From: Bryan Pow <powbr323@*******.otago.ac.nz>
> In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even
> >office
>buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent that >everyone
>has armed security? What type of security levels do you use in your >games?

Our games aren't quite as heavily loaded as yours, assuming that armed guard
means firearms, although our "learning curve" might get a little steeper.
Small offices, warehouses with a low theft profile...etc tend to be
unguarded, alarms and local law enforcement are the only protection for the
most part.
Larger office buildings, mid risk warehouses tend to have a team of late
middle aged men with sidearms and stun batons. plus a security rigger or
decker, with responsibility for two or three such buildings.
Where things get really interesting is the major facilities, anything from
the middle aged dude with his torch giving away his position to a full
platoon of corp troops with emplaced GPMGs and launchers could be round the
next corner.

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Daniel Powell)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 09:05:01 2002
>Bryan Pow wrote:
>In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even office
>buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent that everyone
>has armed security? What type of security levels do you use in your games?

I think plenty has been said in response but I will add my two cents worth.
I try to balance the security with the economics of the need. Do you know
how much it costs to pay people to stare at camera's all day? Its
expensive. Also, being in the computer security biz, I'm amazed that
security is almost always the first thing to get cut when budgets are tight.
It is unbelievable. The reason is, security is worse than insurance when
it comes to calculating a return on investment, most of the time when
security works well, the entity receiving the benefit never even knows they
were attacked and won. I used to work at a major fortune 500 technology
company with tire spiked entrances and armed guards and saw probably the
most formidable corporate security in America today... and it would've been
a cake walk to defeat with the right planning. And I can't tell you the
number of times I've seen that lonely rent-a-cop in the lobby of another job
just praying until his shift is up so he can collect minimum wage and go
home. These types just don't care.

So what's my point? Well, I try to stage runs and games to be realistic.
Yes the world is more dangerous and gritty, and security is definetly
something to be taken far more serious, but try to balance it with the
question "what would the ones who are in charge be willing to pay for?" And
not just one out of pocket expense, what would they pay year after year for
the personell, upkeep, maintenance, etc. Paranormal animals eat ALOT of
kibbles and a mage's services are top dollar. In the end, its all about
money.

Daniel Powell
"For every action there is an equal and opposite government program. "

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 10:35:06 2002
Bryan Pow wrote:

>
>
> In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even
> office buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent
> that everyone has armed security? What type of security levels do
> you use in your games?

My players and I actually had a discussion about this a while ago. We
decided that it makes more sense, monetarily, to have most of the
buildings runners would want to get into in the same area (for each
corp). Rather than having eight warehouses with 7 or more security
guards (what I was doing), we changed to having those 7 or more security
guards on duty for the compound (with an armored van or something to get
to the scene) with a few guys walking a beat. You can add things like
drones, cameras, laser beams which squawk if broken, things like that to
make it more difficult for the players. The key is, as someone said
earlier, to make it realistic in terms of cost.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Soban boris)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 13:15:01 2002
>In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed >guards, even office
>buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so >violent that everyone
>has armed security? What type of security levels do you >use in your games?

I often use huge electronic security (movement detectors, laser beams, chem sniffer,
maglock, thermal detectors, camera with themographic, low light and normal vision,...).
There are 3 to 5 guards to patrol and check the security. The security is often wired to
the matrix so that it can call automatically the cops.

If the site needs more protection, ( for exemple a research center), I add 1 mage with
elemental to guard, double the physical guard, enhance the difficulty of the electronic
part, drones,...

A step higher, I don't use matrix wired security, I use rigger security with two or three
rigger and a lot of drones from mini to drones with body 3. There we can find more than 3
mages plus shamans, adepts, great elementals, highly cybernetised guys, gazes,
metacreatures,... But this type of site is pretty rare.

Yamael




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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (synchro nicity)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 13:35:01 2002
>From: Strago <strago@***.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: Standard Security
>Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:38:29 -0400
>
>Bryan Pow wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > In my games, every place worth breaking into has armed guards, even
> > office buildings. How realistic is this? Is the 2060's so violent
> > that everyone has armed security? What type of security levels do
> > you use in your games?
>
>My players and I actually had a discussion about this a while ago. We
>decided that it makes more sense, monetarily, to have most of the.....
>.......
.............
>......make it more difficult for the players. The key is, as someone said
>earlier, to make it realistic in terms of cost.
>
>

that's realistic. most big companies are based on an industrial complex of
some kind, so security costs are covered by all the companies involved, with
the costs being set at the time they rent the floorspace. i mean, some
companies would want more security so wouldn't bother with such and such a
site but might go to another because the security there is better [and so
costs more].
and so, you'd have to say that security on these sites are pretty much the
same for all the company buildings within the complex but possibly there
might be security 'extras' which would involve a slight increase in
rent...ie, direct link to the nearest lone star station and/or other private
security firm; astral watcher; extra CCTV; pop up hardpoint LMG [the
potential for collateral damage, though, from these things can be off
putting for obvious reasons].




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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 13:50:03 2002
According to Daniel Powell, on Tue, 28 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> I used to work at a major fortune
> 500 technology company with tire spiked entrances and armed guards and
> saw probably the most formidable corporate security in America today...
> and it would've been a cake walk to defeat with the right planning.

Planning is always the key, though. Given enough time to get the necessary
resources and make the plans to use them properly, any security can be
breached.

Plus, if you just walk around town and keep your eyes open, you'll see a lot
of security measures that are so easy to breach that they might as well not
be there -- like walls with barbed wire or spikes on top, but an overhanging
tree next to them...

> So what's my point? Well, I try to stage runs and games to be realistic.
> Yes the world is more dangerous and gritty, and security is definetly
> something to be taken far more serious, but try to balance it with the
> question "what would the ones who are in charge be willing to pay for?"
> And not just one out of pocket expense, what would they pay year after
> year for the personell, upkeep, maintenance, etc. Paranormal animals eat
> ALOT of kibbles and a mage's services are top dollar. In the end, its
> all about money.

IMHO, this means that places that have stuff worth stealing will have good
security, as well as places where something has recently been stolen (or an
attempt has been made, of course). IOW, if runners are hired, then security
will be good.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Tue May 28 17:05:04 2002
Bugger, my computer crashed after writing quite a lengthy reply to this email...

I'll write an abridged version this time since I'm far too lazy to write the
whole thing over again.

I think economics is important in deciding security. It's also important to
factor in some other modern concepts such as core products, density of revenue,
and use of technology.

If a company's core product isn't security, then they are more likely to
outsource security to a security service provider (SSP herein) of some kind.
It's also possible that the SSP may sub contract parts of its security, such as
magical security to other firms. Unless the things being guarded are so
mission critical, it's unlikely that a company will outsource physical, magical,
and electronic security to specialist SSPs. A payroll firm may have its own
deckers to protect some very sensitive funds transfer and salary information,
but it would probably hire Knight Errant or something to provide them with
physical security. Similiarly, an architectural firm might hire a complete
security package to protect its building plans. Conversely the UCAS army might
use its soldiers for all aspects of its security.

It's unlikely that as an SSP wins more contracts and the demand for their
services grows that they will hire more personnel to scale operations. It's
easy to say if you need 3 people working 8 hours shifts to provide 24 hour
security coverage (assuming none are ever ill or require time off.) If you get
a second contract, you'll need 3 more people. Okay, fair enough. You have 6
people to service 2 contracts. What if you have 100 contracts? Do you hire 300
people? The answer may very well be yes, however company directors and
management teams will more likely object to these cost increases regardless of
whether you're also increasing revenue. They will ask questions like, "can we
increase productivity and revenue without increasing headcount, or overheads?"
"Can we improve service without increasing costs?" Regardless of whether the
answer is "no," they'll say it must be possible and the management team will
have to come up with some ideas on how to exploit existing resources to provide
more (and more comprehensive!) services to more clients.

They might suggest automating certain processes to make them less labour
intensive. For example, you are called onsite after hours to service a computer
which has ceased to function during the night. You often have to call ahead to
warn of your impending arrival, and once there you need to demonstrate that you
are on the list of people authorised access to restricted areas outside of
office hours. If you're not on the list, you don't get in. Or, possibly the
security guard calls a specified point of contact requesting persmission to
admit you. Well, do you really need to pay a guard to do that?

Surely you can deploy a smart system (which in 2060 SR3 is feasible, I'm sure)
which would scan your ID, possibly take a DNA sample just in case, and then via
the matrix cross check this information with some knowledge base somewhere
before you get admitted, etc. You've just saved money on salary, training the
guard, equipping the guard, healthcare, holiday pay, whatever and you've
deployed a more scalable solution. You don't even have to worry about whether
the guard calls in sick and your Bluff skill is now irrelevent.

Smart Systems might also be the first line of defense in monitoring and
evaluating footage from security cameras. I'm sure the technology isn't far off
as we speak anyhow. Your guard might fall asleep at 3AM but the computer will
always be watching the IR/UV cameras for signs of intrusion. Current IDS
solutions can guess at patterns of malicious traffic, and I'm sure a computer
hooked up to a security camera can guess as to illicit types of activity well
outside the range of other sensors.

People involved in forming security policy will also be familiar with risk
assessments and quantitative analysis. No site is impregnable, it's merely more
risky to take. This security complex might not be good enough to deter a runner
who performs adequate reconnaissance and plans properly, but it might be enough
to deter less skilled intruders

Sometimes, the security system onsite (be it physical, or electronic) is far too
staunch to circumvent yourself, so you have to bypass other elements. You've
seen heist films where the thieves trigger the alarm knowing they'll have
several minutes before anyone can respond, or they attack other vulnerable parts
of the security system, like diverting the phone line the alarm will use to
alert whomever is monitoring the system.

Cinematically, this might be a bit dull, and its much more interesting for they
party if they have to go up against defenses which will challenge their
abilities as role players and as dice rollers so I usually end up combining
these principles with much less economically viable security which is present
and tangible which combines costly mages, riggers, and jacked up mercs to give
my PCs a run for their money, no pun intended.

Gnight.

Xian.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Wed May 29 03:00:01 2002
In a message dated Tue, 28 May 2002  9:47:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Daniel
Powell" <l0_jak@*******.com> writes:

>And I can't tell you the
>number of times I've seen that lonely rent-a-cop in the lobby of another job
>just praying until his shift is up so he can collect minimum wage and go
>home.  These types just don't care.

As one of those types... We're not paid to put ourself in harms way. That's what the cops
are for. We're there to strictly observe and report. The only time were allowed to jump in
is when someone's life is at stake.

Cash
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Wed May 29 05:40:22 2002
According to GuayII@***.com, on Wed, 29 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> As one of those types... We're not paid to put ourself in harms way.
> That's what the cops are for. We're there to strictly observe and report.
> The only time were allowed to jump in is when someone's life is at stake.

Not when you see _any_ crime happening? I don't know if it's the same in the
US, but over here, everyone is required by law to try and prevent crimes
that they are a witness to -- and security guards being private citizens, not
law enforcement officials, have the same duties and rights as anyone else.

(Of course, most people seem to interpret that law as not having to do
anything at all...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Standard Security
Date: Wed May 29 19:00:00 2002
>As one of those types... We're not paid to put ourself in harms way. That's
>what the cops are for. We're there to strictly observe and report. The only
>time were allowed to jump in is when someone's life is at stake.

Hmm, what if that life is your own?
What if you put it at risk accidentilly?

" He was trying to escape in his car so I shot him. Sorry, but I had to
shoot him, my life was at risk. Why did I step in front of the car? Cos I
saw an M&M on the road. "



--

"No grand idea was ever born in a conference, but alot of foolish ideas have
died there."

F. Scott Fitzgerald


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