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Message no. 1
From: Zak <zak@****.NET>
Subject: Starting back in time
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:53:51 -0700
Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII. I have been GMing
a game for my group now for about 2 months and I would like to try
something. I want to start out new campaign that begins the characters
back in ~2010.

The question that I have for you list-folks is: Is there a Master Listing
of equipment (cyber/bio/tech/vehicles...) that have "release dates?"

I want to be able to introduce new tech _as it becomes available_ and have
the world change before my players eyes. I think that this would give a
really solid feeling to the players as to how SR's feeling and mood should
be. Also, it would allow the players to be involved in some of the major
history of the early 21st century, which I believe to be an awe-inspiring
time for the SR setting.

Please, if anyone has any information on a listing of tech with dates, or if
anyone would like to help me create one (if one doesn't already exist), I
would like to hear from you (priv- or list- mail)!!

Kaz Mjolik
Message no. 2
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:59:49 -0700
> Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII. I have been
GMing
> a game for my group now for about 2 months and I would like to try
> something. I want to start out new campaign that begins the characters
> back in ~2010.

I'd be interested to know how you deal with the awakening. Are any of the
characters going to goblinize?


-Caric

"One cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."
-Albert Einstein
Message no. 3
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:20:00 -0400
At 03:53 PM 4/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII. I have been GMing
>a game for my group now for about 2 months and I would like to try
>something. I want to start out new campaign that begins the characters
>back in ~2010.
>
>The question that I have for you list-folks is: Is there a Master Listing
>of equipment (cyber/bio/tech/vehicles...) that have "release dates?"

I think it's safe to say there won't be any gear from the book avaliable for
another 20 years. It will be that long before you see wired 1 or anything
really simple like the assist interface.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 4
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:11:38 -0400
Zak once dared to write,
>Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII.
<snip>
The welcome bot with the swelled head will be with you shortly.
>
>The question that I have for you list-folks is: Is there a Master Listing
>of equipment (cyber/bio/tech/vehicles...) that have "release dates?"
would like to make one but I haven't finished one yet. When I
ever have one in a presentable format I will let everyone know.



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 5
From: James Meiers <polbdm@***.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:12:28 -0600
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Zak wrote:

> Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII. I have been GMing
> a game for my group now for about 2 months and I would like to try
> something. I want to start out new campaign that begins the characters
> back in ~2010.
>
> The question that I have for you list-folks is: Is there a Master Listing
> of equipment (cyber/bio/tech/vehicles...) that have "release dates?"

First of all, this sounds like a cool idea. Just don't let them
try to influence time becasue they know what will happen. I know I would
try to if given the opportunity. Second, there won't be any true cyberware
until after ASIST is created in the '20s. There will be some moderate
cyberlimbs (NO enhancements), and maybe cybereyes (depending on how foar
you see the tech curve as going) but they are going to have incredible
costs, availabilities, street indexes, etc. It's going to be much more
deadly because corp security at the time was worse than in 2050's;
violent and ultra-paranoid (Think Aztechnology 's security for every corp
that can afford it). They hired mercenaries in the 1990's ands
early 21st century because things were getting so out of hand. You're
going to have to revamp the combat rules or else combat will be really
slow. It's pretty much going to be a gunslinger (I hate using street sam
as a general term) and decker campaign until the end of 2011. It should be
really cool though, becasue the players are going to have to think stuff
out, none of this "gun 'em all down" crap, because they can't. Plus at the
time, the corps might have started issuing combat drugs just in case.
Don't forget the cops at this time are probably not going to be forgiving
of runners at the time, which adds another element of intrigue.


*** James Meiers (Specter) ***
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james --> Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2942/sr_mil.html
--> Shadowrun Military Site
Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:22:08 GMT
Zak writes
>
> The question that I have for you list-folks is: Is there a Master Listing
> of equipment (cyber/bio/tech/vehicles...) that have "release dates?"
>
No. The sourcebooks generally contain dated comments so you can work
out when they came out but even SSC is about 2051 or so.

Otherwise you would have to piece things together from comments made
in 'and so it came to pass' etc as to when breakthroughs were made
and design your own statistics for the early versions of equipment.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:20:09 +0100
Zak said on 15:53/29 Apr 97...
^^^
LOL! (Sorry about that, it's just that it's a rather funny name if you
speak Dutch :)

> Hello. I am new to the list

Welcome, the Bull Bot will probably greet you shortly.

> and relatively new to SRII. I have been GMing a game for my group now
> for about 2 months and I would like to try something. I want to start
> out new campaign that begins the characters back in ~2010.

Good luck... That will be a bit more difficult than the standard 2050s
setting.

> The question that I have for you list-folks is: Is there a Master Listing
> of equipment (cyber/bio/tech/vehicles...) that have "release dates?"

There is no such list, to my knowledge. In fact, it's very hard to figure
out when cyberware became available at all. The only real clue I have ATM
is in Shadowbeat, where it talks about the first cybered American football
players appearing in 2025, but that's about the only date I've seen. One
of the novels -- Changeling -- also talks about a guy who has one of the
first sets of wired reflexes (he goes by the rather cliche name of "Fast
Eddie" I believe), but I don't remember if he mentions when he had them
implanted.

> I want to be able to introduce new tech _as it becomes available_ and have
> the world change before my players eyes. I think that this would give a
> really solid feeling to the players as to how SR's feeling and mood should
> be. Also, it would allow the players to be involved in some of the major
> history of the early 21st century, which I believe to be an awe-inspiring
> time for the SR setting.

I think the best way to do this kind of campaign is start the players in
2050 instead of 2010. At first, limit them to the gear in the SRII
rulebook (_not_ the stuff in the Sourcebook Updates chapter), and give
them access to the gear in each sourcebook around the time of the earliest
date in the shadow comments. For example, by December 2050 they'd get
access to the Street Samurai Catalog (but not to all items just yet; by
the time of the last date all can be had), in 2052 they get bioware
(Shadowtech), and so on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...and I make a difference too.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:41:02 GMT
Gurth writes

> Zak said on 15:53/29 Apr 97...
>
> > Hello. I am new to the list
>
> Welcome, the Bull Bot will probably greet you shortly.
>
It seems to be having another off day.

> > I want to be able to introduce new tech _as it becomes available_ and have
> > the world change before my players eyes. I think that this would give a
> > really solid feeling to the players as to how SR's feeling and mood should
> > be. Also, it would allow the players to be involved in some of the major
> > history of the early 21st century, which I believe to be an awe-inspiring
> > time for the SR setting.
>
> I think the best way to do this kind of campaign is start the players in
> 2050 instead of 2010. At first, limit them to the gear in the SRII
>
This also avoids the rather elderly characters problem. 2010 to 2058
is some 48 years. Characters that age should have made enough to
retire or died of incompitence by now. Yes leonisation would solve
the problem but most PC's find 2.4Myen a lot of money :) and it
doesn't come out till Shadowtech anyway.
You could try developing the backgrounds assuming they are 20 or 30 in
about 2050 or so but otherwise you are unlikely to have characters
still active by the 2050's but best of luck. Ceratinly 2011 has its
options but you will give yourself a huge amount of work to do.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:15:03 -0600
| On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Zak wrote:
|
| > Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII. I have been GMing
| > a game for my group now for about 2 months and I would like to try
| > something. I want to start out new campaign that begins the characters
| > back in ~2010.

This just sparked an adventure idea. Someone hires the runners to
save the plane that was taken down by the dragon in the early days of
the awakening. Said someone will transport the characters back
through time and put them on the plane just after it takes off, and
they'll automatically come back just before the time the plane was
scheduled to land. The real purpose for the adventure is for the EGM
to let the players know why the plane was really attacked by the
dragon (use your imagination and further whatever devious plots you
have in your campaign). The runners of course cannot save the
plane. But the plane does make a successful (more or less) soft
landing in the ocean and they spend an hour or two floating in the
water before they come back. This will leave them wondering why the
plane was listed as lost with no survivors (IIRC). And who is the
person who sent them back, and why did he do it? Fun, fun, fun :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Harlequin <harlequin@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:37:22 -0400
Hmmmmm i think maybe you should just put conventionals guns from 1997
like the m-16, fn-fal, ak-47 and so on...

and about cybernetics:

Reflex boosters / Vehicules control rig limited to lvl. 1
Limiting muscle augmentation to lvl. 3
No bodywares
No stuff from cybertechnology or any sourcebooks (including ares catalog)
and so on...

About Cyberdecks:

MPCP maximum 6... no assist interface...

And you can also multiply the Street Index of the «High-Technology» s=
tuff
by 2 to
represent the rarity of such devices....

Harlequin - The master of chaos
harlequin@*********.ca
Message no. 11
From: James Meiers <polbdm@***.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:30:57 -0600
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Harlequin wrote:

> Hmmmmm i think maybe you should just put conventionals guns from 1997
> like the m-16, fn-fal, ak-47 and so on...

Exactly. Keep it to stuff that's around today for ease of
bookkeeping. There might be more caseless weapons, but they will be more
expensive and they will be harder to find. There might be some access to
smartlinks like what the US military is developing, but most stuff is
going to be lasers and Aimpoint scopes, etc.

> and about cybernetics:
>
> Reflex boosters / Vehicules control rig limited to lvl. 1
> Limiting muscle augmentation to lvl. 3
> No bodywares
> No stuff from cybertechnology or any sourcebooks (including ares catalog)
> and so on...

I don't think so. No cyberware save for some basic cyberlimbs with
reaction penalties (no ASIST to make them react instantly yet.) and crappy
cybereyes with absolutely NO enhancements. There would be no wired
cyberware until after ASISTS is creating. If they don't have datajacks for
another 20+ years, why the hell would they have VCRs and Wired Reflexes?
No cyberweapons: the retractable stuff can't retract with mental commands,
and a muscle reflex would cause some serious trouble. Any obvious
cyberweapons would get you carted by the cops, and the general idea of
cyberware would make you look like a troll cybermonster to back to woods
folks when approaching almost ANYONE. Dermal armor of any sorts cuts off
sensory input to the body, and could cause a real problem with secretion
and various social problems. Basically, keep the campaign simple; no
magic, no metas, no cyber. Keep it very dangerous to stick with the
timeline in Shadowrun, and it will be for very professional people only.

> About Cyberdecks:
>
> MPCP maximum 6... no assist interface...
>
> And you can also multiply the Street Index of the «High-Technology» s=
tuff
> by 2 to represent the rarity of such devices....

Remembering my Shadowrun history, the original cyberdecks appeared
in the 2020'2-30's after ASIST was created, and were built by the US
government to defeat the Crash Virus. Not to mention these things were
room-sized and required sensory deprivation chambers. It will be run off
high-end customized computers like today. Some will have optical chips,
but there's always that pesky problem of having your chips rotting away
(POAD:DS, the entry for Meynt-Zai Industries, P. 65). Most deckers will be
like the ones today; very rare, and very good, or else very imprisoned.
They will be runing their systems off desktops, or laptops with cellular
connections, probably a stolen code. They will probably be good at
programming custom programs, or programming on the fly. The good thing is
you can't die from IC (other conventional methods, like bullets, will).
Everything else still applies.



*** James Meiers (Specter) ***
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james --> Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2942/sr_mil.html
--> Shadowrun Military Site
Message no. 12
From: Michel Racicot <harlequin@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:48:57 -0400
Haaaa.... Don't forget one big thing:

If we limit Street Samurais and characters who REALLY depends of
technology,
the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....

it will be a really good idea to limit the mages too...!!!

Harlequin - The master of chaos
harlequin@*********.ca
Message no. 13
From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:54:57 -0500
You wrote:
> Haaaa.... Don't forget one big thing:

> If we limit Street Samurais and characters who REALLY depends of
> technology,
> the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....

> it will be a really good idea to limit the mages too...!!!

But there isn't any magic in 2010. If someone wants to create a mage at
the beginning of 2010, let them try. They won't find out if magic is real or
not until the Awakening, at the earliest. I don't know off hand when they first
started to realize that magic was real, but I do think that it wasn't even
around until the Awakening, and who would know how to use it when it first
shows up anyway? The reason everyone's been talking exclusively about the
Sammies and whatnot is because there won't be anything else to be, with the
exception of hackers(not deckers, hackers).
I personally like this idea. It would be great to see how people would
react to the first instance of magic, or how the players would react to each
other when, after running together for a year or so, Bob changes into an Ork.
It would be histarical!

-The Immortal Mental
Message no. 14
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:20:34 -0700
> From: Michel Racicot <harlequin@*********.CA>
> the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....

Who sez they get the full range of magic?? I would put severe
limitations on this stuff..Allowing anything that can be accomplished
with slight of hand..putting max Force ratings of no more than .5 of
magic rating..and perhaps allowing elementals and spirits but at
double the difficulty and make them continually attempting to break
free and extremely uncooperative..as time passed I would make things
easier and allow more of the accepted magics available...There is no
reason they should get a free ride though..or you could go another
route and only allow a number of spells to be learned equla to half
the magic rating..as well...to keep things interesting...

--------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 15
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:30:16 -0700
> From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
> But there isn't any magic in 2010.

Oh..but there is..it is simply very very weak...

--------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 16
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 20:56:19 EDT
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:54:57 -0500 TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU writes:
>> But there isn't any magic in 2010.

I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.

>If someone wants to create
>a mage at
>the beginning of 2010, let them try.<snippitty do dah, snippitty day!>

Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems that
characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core book)
against corp playtoys with new chrome.


----------
The useless fact of the day is:
The word "girl" appears in the Bible only once.
Message no. 17
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:57:06 EDT
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:37:22 -0400 Harlequin <harlequin@*********.CA>
writes:
>Hmmmmm i think maybe you should just put conventionals guns from 1997
>like the m-16, fn-fal, ak-47 and so on...

Okay so far...

>and about cybernetics:
>
>Reflex boosters / Vehicules control rig limited to lvl. 1
>Limiting muscle augmentation to lvl. 3
>No bodywares
>No stuff from cybertechnology or any sourcebooks (including ares
catalog)
>and so on...

If you're in 2010, they won't have _any_ of that stuff. Cyberlimbs (maybe
just prosthetic replacements), and possibly replacements for eyes and/or
ears (not as good as the real thing, thereby imposing penalties on
users). 2010 is only 13 years into the future, things won't advance to
that point. Second, no magic (none that's obvious, anyway) until
2011/2012, no elves/dwarves (unless they're spike babies), no trolls/orks
(until goblinisation appears circa 2021).

>About Cyberdecks:
>
>MPCP maximum 6... no assist interface...

Actually, the UMS architecture and interface of SR's Matrix wasn't
developed until the appearance of cyberdecks in 2029. Decks didn't even
exist until 2029, and then they were mainframe sized things. In 2010,
you'd have hackers, not deckers.

>And you can also multiply the Street Index of the «High-Technology»
s=
>tuff by 2 to represent the rarity of such devices....

Try making the Availability of such things as cyberdecks and cyberware
sky-high (12-16, for example) and the street index nearly as high (3-8)

You might find it easier to try starting in 2050, like Gurth suggested.
Especially if you can find any SR1 books, like adventures set in that
time period.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 18
From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 02:39:20 -0500
You wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:54:57 -0500 TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU writes:
> >> But there isn't any magic in 2010.

> I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.

Like I said later in my post, I don't recall exactly when magic first
appears in the timeline, bu ti don't think it is until the Awakening. I've
always thought that the first metahumans appeared at the same time as magic,
and thus the Mana Curve on the rise. But if magic appears before 2011, I can't
think that it would be much before it, and thus no skilled magicians by that
time. At best, the magicians would still be trying to figure out their talents.
All IMHO, of course.

> >If someone wants to create
> >a mage at
> >the beginning of 2010, let them try.<snippitty do dah, snippitty day!>

> Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems that
> characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core book)
> against corp playtoys with new chrome.

I'd say no to the Phys. Ads. since I wouldn't say magic is around yet.
But you are right on the fact that no one would be even close to the PC's of
the 2050's. Everyone would really work of of natural Atts. and wouldn't be the
killing machines that they can become in 2050's. To me, that's almost the
point. People would have to be much be organized and more skilled to pull off
the same jobs that PC's in 2050 should do from the start. If they didn't plan
more, they'd just become bullet catchers. That and th efact that the "corp
playtoys" wouldn't have the chrome either. There wouldn't be any real cyberware
in 2010. Yes there would be prototypes, but nothing close to what we have in
205X. The playing field would be more level, it wouldn't be how much chrome you
could put into your body, bu tmore of outsmarting your opponent. Kinda like the
games like chess. Don't out muscle your opponent, you can't. Just outsmart him.
That's what I do in the game I'm in, and I have access to the chrome.

-The Immortal Mental
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:39:26 +0100
TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.ED said on 18:54/30 Apr 97...

> But there isn't any magic in 2010. If someone wants to create a mage at
> the beginning of 2010, let them try. They won't find out if magic is real or
> not until the Awakening, at the earliest. I don't know off hand when they first
> started to realize that magic was real, but I do think that it wasn't even
> around until the Awakening

This isn't quite correct. The Awakening is the time when the first great
dragon (Ryumyo in this case) is spotted, according to Ehran's speech to
the Young Elven Technologists (look around the web, it'll be there
somewhere). Great dragons require a certain mana level to appear, which
means it was climbing up until that point. To be precise, it should be
climbing right now, and over the past 2500 years as well. The Century
Ferret, for example, was discovered in 2000, and it's a paranormal animal.

Magic would be more difficult and MUCH more limited than in the 2050s,
though. If you do want to put a magician in, you may want to consider
altering the TNs (doubling them at the least); basing Drain on the full
Force rather than Force / 2; and requiring a number of Complex Actions to
be spent to cast a spell, rather than a single one (I'd go for a number of
actions equal to the Force, I think).

So if the only PC magician you allowed in 2010 (for whatever reasons) were
to cast a Force 5 Mana Bolt, the TN would be twice the Willpower of the
target, and the test is rolled after spending 5 Complex Actions to cast
the spell. A Drain of 5S is then resisted, instead of 2S.

> and who would know how to use it when it first shows up anyway?

The EI and Daniel Coleman.

> The reason everyone's been talking exclusively about the Sammies and
> whatnot is because there won't be anything else to be, with the
> exception of hackers(not deckers, hackers).

For hackers, I think it would be best to do some research on modern-day
hacking and the Internet, and let them hack that instead of the Matrix.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...and I make a difference too.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:39:25 +0100
Michel Racicot said on 16:48/30 Apr 97...

> If we limit Street Samurais and characters who REALLY depends of
> technology, the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....
>
> it will be a really good idea to limit the mages too...!!!

A way (sort of) around this is to assume that spells which appear in
Awakenings were only made public in 2057. Players could still try to
invent their own spells which do things similar to what Awakenings
describes, but if you don't give them access to the book then they won't
be able to copy the spells directly -- and if they think them up by
themselves, they can even go "Hey, I invented that one!" later on.
(Naturally, this is harder to implement if the players own the books,
rather than the GM.)

OTOH, magicians were around in the original edition of SR too (set in
2050)...

This only applies if you set your campaign in 2050, though. Starting in
2010 means hardly any to no magic at all for several years. Your best
option then would be to simply disallow PC magicians altogether.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...and I make a difference too.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 21
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 00:36:29 -1000
Physads require less of a magic count to get
their abilities.
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:52:11 GMT
TEGTMEBC wtites

> > >> But there isn't any magic in 2010.
>
> > I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.
>
Very weak indeed. Based on what bit of information there is only the
immortals and folks they had taught magic to had reliable magic
before 24/12/2011 and they hand very little. For other folks it was
very unrealiable even ritual cast and so weak is was effectively
useless assuming that it worded well enough to be identifiable as an
effect even when it worked, let alone they actuallt believe it relly
did work.

> Like I said later in my post, I don't recall exactly when magic first
> appears in the timeline, bu ti don't think it is until the Awakening. I've
> always thought that the first metahumans appeared at the same time as magic,
> and thus the Mana Curve on the rise. But if magic appears before 2011, I can't
> think that it would be much before it, and thus no skilled magicians by that
> time.
There are reference eg in Tir Na Nog to magic before 2011, and in
some of the novels involving the immortal elevs but effectively PC's
could not have magic before 24/12/2011.

> At best, the magicians would still be trying to figure out their
> talents. All IMHO, of course.
>
for some time. One answer would be to limit magical skills except
theory to very low values initially. (so mcuh stuff proved to
actually work that pre awakening study might well be valid in magic
theory but the practical skills that need mana to be used would be
very difficult to develop without practice)
You could then limit skill advancement to say one point per year or
something.

>
> I'd say no to the Phys. Ads. since I wouldn't say magic is around yet.
Basically no game effect until 24/12/2011 anything before that would
be too weak. You might like to say halve effectiveness to begin with
and bring it up to full over 20 years or so as the magic develops.

Your best bet on spells is probably to set the rules to Force based
not f/2 drain and resist at half force for 2011 (as per minimal magic
effectiveness in the options section SR2) then slowly impove this to
full SR magic by say 2040 or so. The game effectiveness probably was
a LOT sharper than that but otherwise PC magicians could be the best
part of full strength by 2015 though initiation probably wasn't known
till say 2030 or so. while the cyber bunnies have to wait for lots of
things till 2030/40 or later.

Note that magic used in crimes attracted HUGE media attention for at
least the first 10 years after the awakening, blowing someone up with
magic in 2012 would have a 'serial murderer' level national crime
operation after you, good fragging luck!

Mark
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 06:54:10 -0600
tom Cone wrote:
|
| Physads require less of a magic count to get
| their abilities.

<Spike>

Read the FAQ, and quote the post you're replying to.

</Spike>

<Bull>

Welcome to the list :)

</Bull>

Boy, I hope Spike comes back soon.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 24
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 04:05:03 -1000
>Physads require less of a magic count to get
> their abilities.
This was in response to several people saying something to the effect
of physads being unlikely in 2010, or there abouts, when the book states
that there are examples of Physads before the Awakening. I don't know
where a FAQ is, and if I did, would it make a significant difference? Up
until now I've had little difficulty with the group, and it won't be
that difficult to just be a little clearer. None of the people in the
group has said anything that I don't understand,
and I'm unlikely to ask rudimentary questions.
Message no. 25
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:18:50 GMT
tom Cone writes

> >Physads require less of a magic count to get
> > their abilities.
> This was in response to several people saying something to the effect
> of physads being unlikely in 2010, or there abouts, when the book states
> that there are examples of Physads before the Awakening.
I made some comments about keeping them under control. Yes they might
be a few in the fiction, and even before 2011 but letting one group
member play one of say 6 full go physads on the planet while the poor
mundanes have decades to wait for cyber is not very balanced. I
suggest limitations and a slow rise for PC's in the aim of getting a
reasonable game if the physad can get 2 bonus initavive dice and
nobody else can by anay safe means (ie non drugs) it could get very
unbalanced.

> I don't know
> where a FAQ is, and if I did, would it make a significant difference?

It should be emailed to you. Failing that tray a few of the list
memebers web sites. I cannot remember who exactly has it but Paulos
and Gurths sites (Http usually in thier sigs) are always good places
to start.

Mark
Message no. 26
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:45:13 -0400
Gweedo The Killer Pimp once dared to write,

>Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems that
>characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core book)
>against corp playtoys with new chrome.

There were PhysAds after the Awakening but it took some time before
they were recognized as having magical powers. Sorry I can't tell you
when they were recognized though. And remember, Physical Magician are
just now being recognized in North America even though they've had their
power in the Orient since the Awakening as well.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 27
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:22:54 -0500
On Thu, 1 May 1997, tom Cone wrote:

> >Physads require less of a magic count to get
> > their abilities.
> This was in response to several people saying something to the effect
> of physads being unlikely in 2010, or there abouts, when the book states
> that there are examples of Physads before the Awakening.

I was thinking about that myself. What if phys ads were restricted to,
say, 3 or so points of magic at the beginning, which could then go up as
the magic level increased.


I don't know
> where a FAQ is, and if I did, would it make a significant difference?

You should be recieving the FAQ as soon as you join the list.

The FAQ for the list has less to do with the game itself and more to do
with how posts to the list are to be handled. For example, quoting an
entire thread and adding "me too" to the end would be considered bad
etiquette. At the same time, just writing "me too" as an entire message
without quoting any of the document it's in response to would also be bad
etiquette. Please act accordingly.

-Q

---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 28
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 01:42:12 -0700
> From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
> Like I said later in my post, I don't recall exactly when magic first
> appears in the timeline, bu ti don't think it is until the Awakening.

The Ghost Dance is in 2014..So I would say there would have been a
significant level of magical energy prior to that for the Howling Coyote
to have 1] figured out he had actual power..2] design a ritual that would
do what he wanted..3] figure out what he wanted to do with his
power..not necessarily in that order..
By 2025 Magic had joined the ranks of science...This too infers an
awful lot had been learned about magic in those few years..So I would
say identifiable traces of magic would have been around prior to
2014..
--------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 29
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:09:59 +0100
On Thu, 1 May 1997, GRANITE wrote:

> The Ghost Dance is in 2014..So I would say there would have been a
> significant level of magical energy prior to that for the Howling Coyote
> to have 1] figured out he had actual power..2] design a ritual that would
> do what he wanted..3] figure out what he wanted to do with his
> power..not necessarily in that order..

Unless he was taught by someone in the know - reference Worlds Without
End.

The Digital Mage aka Grant Erswell - mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Sadder still to watch it die, than never to have known it"
-Rush, Losing It
Message no. 30
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:45:07 EDT
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:48:57 -0400 Michel Racicot
<harlequin@*********.CA> writes:
>Haaaa.... Don't forget one big thing:
>
> If we limit Street Samurais and characters who REALLY depends of
>technology,
>the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....
>
>it will be a really good idea to limit the mages too...!!!

2010 is at least one year before the Awakening. There are no mages or
shamans or metahumans (except for a few _very_ rare exceptions). There is
little cyberware, and cyberdecks do not yet exist. In most respects, it's
not that different from now.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 31
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:45:07 EDT
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 20:56:19 EDT Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
writes:
>On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:54:57 -0500 TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
>writes:
>>> But there isn't any magic in 2010.
>
>I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.

Some people have posited the theory that the magic suddenly started to
work big-time in 2011 because the level finally reached some sort of
'critical mass', which allowed for UGE, the first mages and shamans,
various Awakened critters, etc. a second 'critical mass' would appear to
have been reached around 2021 and allowed goblinisation and even more
Awakened creatures and greater uses of magic. As magic continues to rise,
more things will become possible. Certain magicks were apparently
available before the Awakening, physads for instance, vampires may
existed pre-Awakening, and magic existed, but it required far longer
rituals and preparation for far less effect and far more drain.

>>If someone wants to create
>>a mage at
>>the beginning of 2010, let them try.<snippitty do dah, snippitty
>day!>
>
>Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems that
>characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core book)
>against corp playtoys with new chrome.

<shrug> see above.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 32
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:01:46 EDT
On Thu, 1 May 1997 02:39:20 -0500 TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU writes:
>You wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:54:57 -0500 TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
>writes:
>> >> But there isn't any magic in 2010.
>
>> I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.
>
> Like I said later in my post, I don't recall exactly when magic
first
>appears in the timeline, bu ti don't think it is until the Awakening.
I've
>always thought that the first metahumans appeared at the same time as
magic,
>and thus the Mana Curve on the rise. But if magic appears before 2011,
>I can't think that it would be much before it, and thus no skilled
magicians
>by that time. At best, the magicians would still be trying to figure out
>their talents.
>All IMHO, of course.

Actually, Magic has been on the rise since about half-way through the
Fifth World (between 3500 and 2000 years before SR), though it fell for a
similar period (excluding the time during which it leveled out in the
middle) at the end of the 4th and beginning of the Fifth World. This
means that magic was at its lowest point (which may or may not have been
such that magic was entirely absent) for a short period, after which it
again began to rise, this is somewhere around 3000-2000 years after ED,
and 2000-3000 before SR. The question, of course, is how long will it
continue to rise? I'm pretty sure I've seen speculation (though I can't
remember if it was in one of the books or not) which proposed that
certain types of magically active (physads and vampires being the most
prominant ones, I think) existed/exist during the Sixth World.

>> >If someone wants to create
>> >a mage at
>> >the beginning of 2010, let them try.<snippitty do dah, snippitty
day!>
>
>> Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems that
>> characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core book)
>> against corp playtoys with new chrome.
>
> I'd say no to the Phys. Ads. since I wouldn't say magic is
>around yet.
>But you are right on the fact that no one would be even close to the
PC's of
>the 2050's. Everyone would really work of of natural Atts. and

I'd be more than willing to allow such a campaign to include Physads,
but, while more common than other magicians, they would still be rare
(more so than in 205x) and not as powerful, and it would take longer for
their abilities to manifest, since Physads work by gradually 'grounding'
magic into their body and since there's less magic floating around, it
will take longer to absorb enough power:)

>wouldn't be the
>killing machines that they can become in 2050's. To me, that's almost
the
>point. People would have to be much be organized and more skilled to
pull off
>the same jobs that PC's in 2050 should do from the start. If they didn't
plan
>more, they'd just become bullet catchers. That and th efact that the
"corp
>playtoys" wouldn't have the chrome either. There wouldn't be any real
>cyberware

Well, there would be some low-quality cybereyes and ears (higher Essence
cost, lower efficiency, no extras) and cyberlimbs (see above).

>in 2010. Yes there would be prototypes, but nothing close to what we
have in
>205X. The playing field would be more level, it wouldn't be how much
>chrome you
>could put into your body, bu tmore of outsmarting your opponent. Kinda
>like the
>games like chess. Don't out muscle your opponent, you can't. Just
>outsmart him.
>That's what I do in the game I'm in, and I have access to the chrome.

But, as Tinner said a while back, players are invariably stupid (a broad
generalization, no offense intended). Players tend to not think before
acting (hey, they're playing, not GMing:).

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 33
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:25:36 +1000
> Magic would be more difficult and MUCH more limited than in the 2050s,
> though. If you do want to put a magician in, you may want to consider
> altering the TNs (doubling them at the least); basing Drain on the full
> Force rather than Force / 2; and requiring a number of Complex Actions to
> be spent to cast a spell, rather than a single one (I'd go for a number of
> actions equal to the Force, I think).

Interesting point: Might that be the reasoning behind the difference in
drain codes between SRI and SRII? I'm told that SRI drain was based on
Force, and SRII is on Force/2. Perhaps that lowering of the drain code
is meant to represent the magic on the rise.

It does seem quite a big jump for what, 5 years, though?


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:15 -0500
At 06:54 PM 4/30/97 -0500, TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote these
timeless words:
>You wrote:
>> Haaaa.... Don't forget one big thing:
>
>> If we limit Street Samurais and characters who REALLY depends of
>> technology,
>> the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....
>
>> it will be a really good idea to limit the mages too...!!!
>
Another thing about the mages... they would be SERIOUSLY shunned and
mistrusted, especially after the Great Ghost Dance...

> I personally like this idea. It would be great to see how people
would
>react to the first instance of magic, or how the players would react to each
>other when, after running together for a year or so, Bob changes into an Ork.
>It would be histarical!
>
Actually, if you start the campaign in 2010, Bob won't turn into an Ork for
about 13 years or so... Orks and trolls didn't appear till the 2020's
sometime...

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 35
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:14:45 -0500
> plane was listed as lost with no survivors (IIRC). And who is the
> -David
Sorry, about this but,
What is IIRC? I haven't understood it since I saw it,
and I would really like to figure out what it is.


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
ICQ UIN: 514986
Microsoft Sitebuilder: 531896
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
Message no. 36
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:37:03 +1000
> > and who would know how to use it when it first shows up anyway?
>
> The EI and Daniel Coleman.

And any shamans of any cultures that have kept their thousand year old
customs alive.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 37
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:51:25 -0700
| Interesting point: Might that be the reasoning behind the difference in
| drain codes between SRI and SRII? I'm told that SRI drain was based on
| Force, and SRII is on Force/2. Perhaps that lowering of the drain code
| is meant to represent the magic on the rise.
|
| It does seem quite a big jump for what, 5 years, though?

I think its mostly based on the staging changes.


-Caric


What customer's say: "I have a dog and cat and i'm not computer literate
and my drive is broken and my computer beeps at me and I have a printer and
it ran out of ink..."

What I hear: "blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah drive
blahblahblahblahblahblahblah printer conflict blahblahblahblah"
Message no. 38
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:08 -0500
At 03:53 PM 4/29/97 -0700, Zak wrote these timeless words:
>Hello. I am new to the list and relatively new to SRII. I have been GMing
>a game for my group now for about 2 months and I would like to try
>something. I want to start out new campaign that begins the characters
>back in ~2010.
>
Ok, well, for starters, I ned to do my duty... Here goes!

+++++ BULL-BOT ACTIVATED
+++++ AUTO GREET INITIATED

Hello there, new list-member Zak!! Welcome to the Shadowrn Mailing List!

It's a great place, with good people and great discussion! hope ya like mail!

+++++ AUTO OFF TOPIC RANDOM GENERATOR v2.1 INITIATED
+++++ TOPIC #204

Since yogurt is essentially mold, why is one good for you and not the other?

+++++ END AUTO GREET

[SNIP tech availability question]

Ok, well, you're gouing to run into problems unless you're really going to
skip a lot of time with your campaign. SR Modern technology took 30+ years
to develop. Sure, by 2050 and up, the tech was getting released faster and
better every year, but before that, the tech curve was MUCH lower for cyber
and what-not.

Compare it to TV's in the early part of the century, or Computers in the
late 60's to early 70's.

A computer today l;eaps from SOTA model every 6 montrhs or so (that's a
generous estimate), but 20 years ago and more, the type of leap available
in 6 months now took several years, at least.

Is your campaign set to span 40 years in a relatively short period of time?
if not, your going to miss a lot of the 'development' you want your
players to see.

Secondly, if you start it in 2010, you're not going to have any meta's in
your group, unless you use spike babies or immortal elves (Bad plan, IMO).
You can have eve and dwarves after 2011, but IIRC, these were all born, not
'goblinized', and so you won't have fully grown players until at least 2027.

You won't have any Orks and Trolls until 2023 or so (Can't remember the
date off hand), but these did goblinize, so your human players could become
these.

Magicians you could have after 2011, but keep in mind that magic was much
weaker back then, and no one really kneww anything about it.

The mega corps weren't the power that they are now, either. they were
still just large companies. I don't think you'll see any real corps (SR
style) until mid 2020's or 2030's.

No deckers until sometime in the 2020's, and even then, it's using the big
room device. Generation 1 cyberdecks came out at the end of the decade.

ASIST interface wasn't developed until the same time, and thus no real
cyberware yet.

<shrug>

I guess the best thing to do is read over the "and so it began" section of
the main book, as well as the text background sections of the Grimmy,
Virtual Realitis (preferably 1.0 for the older info), and possibly the "gun
books", SSC and FoF.

Also, check out the SR timeline on Paolo Marcucci's website. i won't vouch
for it's reliability, as a lot of it seems to have been stuff made up by
the creater of the timeline, it might help.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 39
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:27:48 -0700
> From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
> Unless he was taught by someone in the know - reference Worlds Without
> End.

But as we all know..knowledge is not necessarily power when it comes
to magic..It would be an awful huge coincidence for a guy who had no
abillity to take magical instruction and then one fine morning all of
those abstract teachings are no longer abstract..that actually
work...Hmmm..I don't buy it..And as for this mythical
teacher..assuming they had some sort of secret knowledge..why would
that person teach someone on the chance they might maybe have the
ability some day to use magic...Sounds like a lot of work for
extremely long odds..Now granted there are still a few Shaman in the
Nations who will teach others..but they are few and far between..and
usually guarded about their knowledge..

And to referance the big book...It's possible that magic existed
before then but it was unreliable...pg 26 in the offset...so this
statement alone would allow this per-50s setting to have magic
throwers..they would simply have a real hard time of it...
--------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 40
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:12 -0500
At 04:48 PM 4/30/97 -0400, Michel Racicot wrote these timeless words:
>Haaaa.... Don't forget one big thing:
>
> If we limit Street Samurais and characters who REALLY depends of
>technology,
>the mages would be very very very much more powerfull....
>
>it will be a really good idea to limit the mages too...!!!
>
Keep in mind that everything has a SOTA, including the magic.

magic of 205X (do you realize we'll only be able to say that for 2 more
years?) has had 40+ years to learn, and during such time, become more
powerful. Anmd it's been stated, more or less, that magic of the eraly
century was much more limited and weaker.

Limit which spells your players have access to (maybe only a few from each
category. Only flame dart or fireball, rather than all the flame spells),
and limit the Force to maybe 3 or 4, max. Magic should be VERY rare, and
mages are going to have to find soem of the few other spellcasters around
to learn from. there's no handy spell libraries available.

In fact, for fun, you might want to limit the spell chuckers to only Mages,
rather than allowing shamans. This gives you more room to force the mage
to 'find a teacher' :]

Ah well, just my 2 cents...

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 41
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:18 -0500
At 08:56 PM 4/30/97 EDT, Gweedo The Killer Pimp wrote these timeless words:
>On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:54:57 -0500 TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU writes:
>>> But there isn't any magic in 2010.
>
>I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.
>
Actually, what magic there was is the same magic available today (if you
believe in that sort of thing)... LOcal "witch doctors", seers, taht sort
of thing. No real SR style magic till Christmas Eve, 2011 though.

>>If someone wants to create
>>a mage at
>>the beginning of 2010, let them try.<snippitty do dah, snippitty day!>
>
>Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems that
>characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core book)
>against corp playtoys with new chrome.
>
YUp, no phys-ads...;]

And you don't need to worry about corp-chrome-b0ys until Cyberware gets
created in the 2020's or so...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 42
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:15:26 +0100
Lady Jestyr said on 15:25/ 2 May 97...

> Interesting point: Might that be the reasoning behind the difference in
> drain codes between SRI and SRII? I'm told that SRI drain was based on
> Force, and SRII is on Force/2. Perhaps that lowering of the drain code
> is meant to represent the magic on the rise.
>
> It does seem quite a big jump for what, 5 years, though?

The difference is more than just halving the Force. SRI had varying
Staging ratings (instead of the Staging of 2 for all damage in SRII). In
spells, this means that different, but similar, spells had different
Staging ratings, rather than add something to the Power Level.

Taking Mana Bolt and Power Bolt as an example, in SRII these cause (F/2)S
and [(F/2)+1]S Drain. In SRI these were (Force)S2 and (Force)S1,
respectively (i.e. Power Bolt's Drain got staged down one level for every
2 successes, but you needed only 1 success per Drain Level for Mana Bolt).
Some spells were therefore much harder to stage down than others, since
the highest Staging possible was 4 -- good luck throwing a (Force)D4 spell
:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I know that that sounds dumb.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 43
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:26:46 -0400
>Interesting point: Might that be the reasoning behind the difference in
>drain codes between SRI and SRII? I'm told that SRI drain was based on
>Force, and SRII is on Force/2. Perhaps that lowering of the drain code
>is meant to represent the magic on the rise.

Nope it's because all the munchies wanted to throw spells all day long and
not have to worry about drain. I believe FasaMike said something similar a
while back.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 44
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:52:55 +0000
> From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
> Subject: Re: Starting back in time

> Limit which spells your players have access to (maybe only a few from each
> category. Only flame dart or fireball, rather than all the flame spells),
> and limit the Force to maybe 3 or 4, max. Magic should be VERY rare, and
> mages are going to have to find soem of the few other spellcasters around
> to learn from. there's no handy spell libraries available.

No, don't limit it that way. You could juke the priority for magic
up by one (that's right, no full mages for humans) or eliminate
full mages alltogether. I'd also have physical drain start when the
spell's force is HALF of the magic attribute. Maybe cut the
available spell points in half as well.....


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 45
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:52:55 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Starting back in time

> Taking Mana Bolt and Power Bolt as an example, in SRII these cause (F/2)S
> and [(F/2)+1]S Drain. In SRI these were (Force)S2 and (Force)S1,
> respectively (i.e. Power Bolt's Drain got staged down one level for every
> 2 successes, but you needed only 1 success per Drain Level for Mana Bolt).
> Some spells were therefore much harder to stage down than others, since
> the highest Staging possible was 4 -- good luck throwing a (Force)D4 spell

Yeah, mana bolt used to rule. A (force)D4 spell is easy. You throw
it at force 2 and stick your whole magic pool into it bringing it to
force 8 or so and resist at 2D4. It'll prolly hurt, but not too
much. And it'll rock the target (used to love those Hellblasts.)

Under the SRI rules, the burnedout mage was the singularly most
abusive archetype in the game. When you made your own, you could
essentially make a supermage/samauri.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 46
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:52:55 +0000
> From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Subject: Re: Starting back in time

> Interesting point: Might that be the reasoning behind the difference in
> drain codes between SRI and SRII? I'm told that SRI drain was based on
> Force, and SRII is on Force/2. Perhaps that lowering of the drain code
> is meant to represent the magic on the rise.

Naw, they were just trying to make magic more user friendly and
balance it out with the new damage codes (everything stages at 2.)


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 47
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:05:22 EDT
On Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:18 -0500 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>>I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.
>>
>Actually, what magic there was is the same magic available today (if
>you
>believe in that sort of thing)... LOcal "witch doctors", seers, taht
>sort
>of thing. No real SR style magic till Christmas Eve, 2011 though.

Now, why would it be on that exact date that anybody could perform near
SR style magic on that date. I know that this is the date of the Great
Ghost Dance (I think), but wouldn't some shamans be able to say "Hey wait
a second, I just killed myself a bear by thinking about tossing a bolt of
lightning at him, and it happened?"

>>Does that mean that there are no physads in 2010 either. I seems
>that
>>characters would be very low power (like less than the SRII core
>book)
>>against corp playtoys with new chrome.
>>
>YUp, no phys-ads...;]
>
>And you don't need to worry about corp-chrome-b0ys until Cyberware
>gets
>created in the 2020's or so...:]

Like above, couldn't you maybe give physads of before 12-24-2011 maybe
only 3 starting points to buy powers? And with the corp playtoys,
couldn't you say that a corp like maybe Fuchi would have a peice of
experimental cyber put in some of their special sec guards, like say
maybe a newfangled smartlink?


----------
The useless fact of the day is:
The word "girl" appears in the Bible only once.
Message no. 48
From: James Meiers <polbdm@***.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:13:34 -0600
On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gweedo The Killer Pimp wrote:

> Now, why would it be on that exact date that anybody could perform near
> SR style magic on that date. I know that this is the date of the Great
> Ghost Dance (I think), but wouldn't some shamans be able to say "Hey wait
> a second, I just killed myself a bear by thinking about tossing a bolt of
> lightning at him, and it happened?"

That's the accpeted date for when the critical mass was achieved
to alow Great Dragons to awaken, signalling the official beginning of the
Sixth World. However, people who know what they are really doing would
have been able to do this to a lesser extent earlier, but it would have
been at weaker levels. I think even that Aina was experiencing light drain
while she was using magic in Worlds Without End during the Fifth World.
OBTW, the Great Ghost Dance was in 2014, not 2011.


> Like above, couldn't you maybe give physads of before 12-24-2011 maybe
> only 3 starting points to buy powers? And with the corp playtoys,
> couldn't you say that a corp like maybe Fuchi would have a peice of
> experimental cyber put in some of their special sec guards, like say
> maybe a newfangled smartlink?

I would accept physads above anything else. The PhysAd would be
lower-powered, and I would regulate it to the lowest levels of improved
abilities, increased REFLEXES, and improved attributes, but they would
cost more.
As for cyber, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, and NO!!! No cyberware that
requires any sort of interface at all until ASIST comes out. If they don't
have datajacks, how are they going to have a system that can interface a
gun with a person well enough to make it easier to shoot?



*** James Meiers (Specter) ***
http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james --> Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2942/sr_mil.html
--> Shadowrun Military Site
Message no. 49
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:37:07 -0500
On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gweedo The Killer Pimp wrote:

> On Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:18 -0500 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
> >>I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.
> >>
> >Actually, what magic there was is the same magic available today (if
> >you
> >believe in that sort of thing)... LOcal "witch doctors", seers, taht
> >sort
> >of thing. No real SR style magic till Christmas Eve, 2011 though.
>
> Now, why would it be on that exact date that anybody could perform near
> SR style magic on that date. I know that this is the date of the Great
> Ghost Dance (I think), but wouldn't some shamans be able to say "Hey wait
> a second, I just killed myself a bear by thinking about tossing a bolt of
> lightning at him, and it happened?"
>
IIRC, the date was chosen because of an ancient Mayan calendar that was in
use when that civilization was at its height. I believe that particular
people believed that they were the survivors of a world that perished, and
that, very soon, the present world would perish as well. Apparantly,
their calendar ended on that particular date.

-Q


---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 50
From: Asher R <asrosenberg@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:59:08 +0200
On 30 Apr 97 at 12:20, Gurth wrote:

> One
> of the novels -- Changeling -- also talks about a guy who has one of the
> first sets of wired reflexes (he goes by the rather cliche name of "Fast
> Eddie" I believe), but I don't remember if he mentions when he had them
> implanted.

Well, I'm reading that novel right now.....
Let's see. He says he had one of the first black market prototypes
installed, "back in thirty." So, illegal versions of wires were
available by 2030.
I'd figure that the "legal" version had probably been tested for a
few years before that. So, a really brave soul could probably have
had wires installed as part of a Test program in 2026 or 2027.
--
End Cruelty to Worms!!!
Let them out of their cans.
Message no. 51
From: Shaun Sides <arch@****.ABTS.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:55:56 -0500
Date: 1 May 97 Time: 22:14
Subject: Re: Starting back in time

TO: Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr.

> Sorry, about this but,
> What is IIRC? I haven't understood it since I saw it,
> and I would really like to figure out what it is.

Nobody's told me, but I'd bet it stands for "if I recall correctly".

[[ whoa, I've been at this for way too long! ]]

a chaoidh teabadaich,

Shaun Sides
arch@****.net
http://www.abts.net/~arch

Thought for the day:
The only thing that hurts more than paying income tax
is not having to pay income tax.
Message no. 52
From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:11:49 -0500
You wrote:
> On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gweedo The Killer Pimp wrote:

> > On Fri, 2 May 1997 02:49:18 -0500 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
> > >>I thought that magic was very weak in 2010.
> > >>
> > >Actually, what magic there was is the same magic available today (if
> > >you
> > >believe in that sort of thing)... LOcal "witch doctors", seers,
taht
> > >sort
> > >of thing. No real SR style magic till Christmas Eve, 2011 though.
> >
> > Now, why would it be on that exact date that anybody could perform near
> > SR style magic on that date. I know that this is the date of the Great
> > Ghost Dance (I think), but wouldn't some shamans be able to say "Hey wait
> > a second, I just killed myself a bear by thinking about tossing a bolt of
> > lightning at him, and it happened?"
> >
> IIRC, the date was chosen because of an ancient Mayan calendar that was in
> use when that civilization was at its height. I believe that particular
> people believed that they were the survivors of a world that perished, and
> that, very soon, the present world would perish as well. Apparantly,
> their calendar ended on that particular date.

Not that it really matters, considering the timeline for SR is already
using Christmas Eve of 2011, but the real date the Mayan's chose for the
beginning of the Sixth World was Jan. 11, 2013. I do think that it was pretty
interesting that the Mayan's had the same number of worlds as FASA did. Was
that intentional? I figure it was but not sure.

-The Immortal Mental
Message no. 53
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:00:37 +1000
Droopy said:
> Yeah, mana bolt used to rule. A (force)D4 spell is easy. You throw
> it at force 2 and stick your whole magic pool into it bringing it to
> force 8 or so and resist at 2D4. It'll prolly hurt, but not too
> much. And it'll rock the target (used to love those Hellblasts.)

I don't remember that the force was altered by magic pool.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 54
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:55:11 +1000
> +++++ AUTO OFF TOPIC RANDOM GENERATOR v2.1 INITIATED
> +++++ TOPIC #204
>
> Since yogurt is essentially mold, why is one good for you and not the
other?

But mould can be good for you. Penicillin remember.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 55
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 23:16:20 -0500
On Sat, 3 May 1997, Ray & Tamara wrote:

> Droopy said:
> > Yeah, mana bolt used to rule. A (force)D4 spell is easy. You throw
> > it at force 2 and stick your whole magic pool into it bringing it to
> > force 8 or so and resist at 2D4. It'll prolly hurt, but not too
> > much. And it'll rock the target (used to love those Hellblasts.)
>
> I don't remember that the force was altered by magic pool.

Well, technically, it isn't, but the magician gets to add those successes
to the spell's successes, which is pretty much the same thing.

-Q

---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 56
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 11:04:41 EDT
On Sat, 3 May 1997 12:59:08 +0200 Asher R <asrosenberg@******.COM>
writes:
>On 30 Apr 97 at 12:20, Gurth wrote:
<snipping Fast Eddie>
>Well, I'm reading that novel right now.....
>Let's see. He says he had one of the first black market prototypes
>installed, "back in thirty." So, illegal versions of wires were
>available by 2030.

I'd say that those probably didn't go above Rating 1 or 2, though. I'd
jack the Essence cost for those up at least one rating level (Level One
costs 3 Essence, Level 2 costs 5, etc)

>I'd figure that the "legal" version had probably been tested for a
>few years before that. So, a really brave soul could probably have
>had wires installed as part of a Test program in 2026 or 2027.

A _very_ brave soul. I can't see too many people _wanting_ to go under
the knife and have something like that installed:) Who knows what
could've happened to the early test subjects? >:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 57
From: "Mark E. Manhardt" <droopy@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:33:36 +0000
> From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
> Subject: Re: Starting back in time

> I don't remember that the force was altered by magic pool.

Force wasn't altered. Just the number of dice you threw. So you
could cast a force 2 manabolt with 9 dice if you wanted and only
resist the drain at force 2 IIRC.


--Droopy

droopy@**.net
Message no. 58
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:20:00 GMT
TEGTMEBC writes

> > IIRC, the date was chosen because of an ancient Mayan calendar that was in
> > use when that civilization was at its height. I believe that particular
> > people believed that they were the survivors of a world that perished, and
> > that, very soon, the present world would perish as well. Apparantly,
> > their calendar ended on that particular date.
>
> Not that it really matters, considering the timeline for SR is already
> using Christmas Eve of 2011, but the real date the Mayan's chose for the
> beginning of the Sixth World was Jan. 11, 2013. I do think that it was pretty
> interesting that the Mayan's had the same number of worlds as FASA did. Was
> that intentional? I figure it was but not sure.
>
Refer to 'Humans and the Cycle of Magic' By Ehran The Scribe [Tom
Down flyer story] which is supposedly on Shadowland in SR, this
refers to the Mayan calander directly and gives dates for the
beginning of the fifth and seventh worlds according to Ehran.

As to 11 Jan 2013 will have to look into that. I had matched FASA's
dates to the length of the cycle of the Mayan calander pretty
accurately, it's not exact on the information i have found but then i
think FASA intended that the Mayan's merely be the closest not
precisely correct. [possibly to stop those with lots of time and a
good library working out too much :) and allow them to spring more
suprises]

Mark
Message no. 59
From: Tuvyah@***.COM
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 02:03:19 -0400
M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk (Mark Steedman) wrote:

>>As to 11 Jan 2013 will have to look into that. I had matched FASA's
>>dates to the length of the cycle of the Mayan calander pretty
accurately, it's not exact on the information i have found but then i
>>think FASA intended that the Mayan's merely be the closest not
>>precisely correct. [possibly to stop those with lots of time and a
>>good library working out too much :) and allow them to spring more
suprises]

In fact, I think they said as much (through the mouth of Dunkelzahn) in the
Tir Tairngire sourcebook, right at the very end.

--Smilin' Ted
"...who knows why he's smilin'."
Message no. 60
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:30:33 GMT
Tuvyah@***.COM writes
>
> >>As to 11 Jan 2013 will have to look into that. I had matched FASA's
> >>dates to the length of the cycle of the Mayan calander pretty
> accurately, it's not exact on the information i have found but then i
> >>think FASA intended that the Mayan's merely be the closest not
> >>precisely correct. [possibly to stop those with lots of time and a
> >>good library working out too much :) and allow them to spring more
> suprises]
>
> In fact, I think they said as much (through the mouth of Dunkelzahn) in the
> Tir Tairngire sourcebook, right at the very end.
>
Ah yes i cannot remember exactly what Dunk said but he did say he was
limited else someone would mount his head above the mantlepiece! From
that comment and 'wyrm talk' the flyer i think the friend refered to
there would be Harlequin (possibly plus friends, even he could well
need them against a great dragon).

Mark
Message no. 61
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting back in time
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:12:24 -0700
---Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> > > Refer to 'Humans and the Cycle of Magic' By Ehran The Scribe [Tom
> > > Down flyer story] which is supposedly on Shadowland in SR, this
> > > refers to the Mayan calander directly and gives dates for the
> > > beginning of the fifth and seventh worlds according to Ehran.
> >
> > I've got this on my page as well. A URL for the speech is:
> >
> > http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/srstuff/humans.htm
>
> Fine except you only sent the message to me and i have a printed out
> and disk based copies!

Oops! Cursed Reply-to field override. <grumble>

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
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