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Message no. 1
From: tkerby@***.net (Tim Kerby)
Subject: Starting character - force points
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 21:41:26 EST
I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
initiation, if a character so desires? And can a PA character use Force
points? I also have Grimoire 2, but didn't see anything in there. Any ideas?
Thanks!


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
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Message no. 2
From: gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu (S.F. Eley)
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:39:56 -0500 (EST)
> I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
> character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
> purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
> initiation, if a character so desires? And can a PA character use Force
> points? I also have Grimoire 2, but didn't see anything in there. Any ideas?
> Thanks!

I tend to think of 'em as the Karma the character gets to start with.
Spells are bought at a Karma Point per force rating, so that's a direct
conversion. Foci might take more Force Points. Initiation? Well, if a
starting character really wants to spend 9-12 points to get Grade 0, I'd say
sure.. None of mine have thought about it yet, though. >8->

And Physical Adepts have nothing they need to spend Force Points on. Well,
I guess they could buy a Weapon Focus with 'em, but that'll take more money
than Force Points.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Man will occasionally stumble over the
My opinions are my opinions. | truth, but most of the time he will pick
Message no. 3
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:00:53 +0000 (GMT)
On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Tim Kerby wrote:

> I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
> character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
> purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
> initiation, if a character so desires? And can a PA character use Force
> points? I also have Grimoire 2, but didn't see anything in there. Any ideas?
> Thanks!
>
Per teh rules, nothing is said but I'd think not -however if teh GM was
okay as starting characters as initiates then its fine, if a little
expensive. Spend force points equal to teh karma required, don't say the
character did an ordeal (unless you roalplay it in a prelude, with all
the inherent risks), and only allow teh magician to have teh benefit of a
group if hew pays resources for it, I think on teh scale of the Followers
200K, should do it -but of course in this case the mage is teh lowest
member in teh group :)


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun
-------------------------------------------------------
"We're falling from ecstacy, like Changlings."
-Fields of the Nephilim, Psychonaut Lib 111.
Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:14:36 +0100
Tim Kerby said on 7 Dec 95...

> I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
> character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
> purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
> initiation, if a character so desires?

Normally, no. A GM might allow it if you grovel long enough :)

> And can a PA character use Force points?

A physad can buy a weapon focus, which needs to be bonded like any other
focus. Force Points are needed for that if you want to do it at character
generation...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn on a million blinding brilliant white incendiary lights
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:20:33 +0000 (GMT)
>
> I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
> character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
> purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
> initiation, if a character so desires? And can a PA character use Force
> points? I also have Grimoire 2, but didn't see anything in there. Any ideas?
> Thanks!

I don't think you've got the right idea about the shadowrun game....

Force points can be used to purchase spells and foci.
NOTHING ELSE.

Initiation is, by definition, something a mage might strive for, seek out
and spend a lot of nuyen to do. Making contact with an initiate group is
difficult (of should be) and they would only allow contact when they were
satisfied the mage was ready.

As for Physical Adepts....
PA's CAN NOT CAST SPELLS. Thier magic is channelled into thier bodies and
abilities by spending magic points. They do NOT get force points.
However, when a PA reaches a level of experience you are comfortable with,
hee MAY initiate.

Hope this answers your questions satisfactorily.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:40:43 +0000 (GMT)
>
> >
> > I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
> > character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
> > purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
> > initiation, if a character so desires? And can a PA character use Force
> > points? I also have Grimoire 2, but didn't see anything in there. Any ideas?
> > Thanks!
>
> I don't think you've got the right idea about the shadowrun game....
>
> Force points can be used to purchase spells and foci.
> NOTHING ELSE.
>
> Initiation is, by definition, something a mage might strive for, seek out
> and spend a lot of nuyen to do. Making contact with an initiate group is
> difficult (of should be) and they would only allow contact when they were
> satisfied the mage was ready.
>
> As for Physical Adepts....
> PA's CAN NOT CAST SPELLS. Thier magic is channelled into thier bodies and
> abilities by spending magic points. They do NOT get force points.
> However, when a PA reaches a level of experience you are comfortable with,
> hee MAY initiate.

Oops, yeh, I forgot about weapon foci. That is the only use a PA can make of
force points, and any left unspent after generation are lost.
Chances are, he wouldn't be able to afford the nuyen to buy a weeapon focus.
They cost an absolute fortune!

> Hope this answers your questions satisfactorily.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:12:58 GMT
The Digital Mage writes

> On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Tim Kerby wrote:
>
> > I have a question about the allocations of Force points with a starting
> > character: it says in the SR2 book on page 46, "Force points are used to
> > purchase magic spells and to acquire foci". Can they also be used to gain
> > initiation, if a character so desires?
The 2nded main rulebook tends to ignore the existence of iniation
appart form some 'for this see Grimoire' in the magic chapter while
the grimoire is written throughout assuming you know all about it.

> > And can a PA character use Force points?
To bond weaponfoci,but if you have enough money to but the thing you
easily have enough force to bond it.

> > I also have Grimoire 2, but didn't see anything in there. Any ideas?
> > Thanks!
> >
the one thing it does clear up is the meaning of that ambiguous 'save
magic points for later' phrase in phys adepts.

> Per teh rules, nothing is said but I'd think not -however if teh GM was
> okay as starting characters as initiates then its fine, if a little
> expensive [delete.....]
>
The problems of course would start with physical adepts. Who don't
have to buy spells. At startup you are better getting a decent spell
list than trying to get initated. I tend to recon on arround 30 karma
as time to go for grade zero, but it does vary depending on
character, game and player experience as to when is best.

unfotunately some of these may never get cleared up by FASA, that
would need a third edition! [and we don't want to have to buy it]. I
would not allow initaition at startup (0 karma) but have been
allowing characters entering the game on 50+ to buy it with awarded
karma.

As to groups, the best trick is to find out about initiation and get
a load of contacts and buddy etc interested. In game all PC groups
are best, several strictures are little trouble to a well organised
shadow team, though making 8 to 10 on 2 or 3 dice (number of possible
PC magicians likely) can be a real pest.

ok i got rambling...

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:02:36 -0500
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>>>>> "TK" == Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.net> writes:

TK> Can they also be used to gain initiation, if a character so desires?

Not outside of a house rule.

TK> And can a PA character use Force points?

Only for weapon foci.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 9
From: gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu (S.F. Eley)
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:26:14 -0500 (EST)
> I don't think you've got the right idea about the shadowrun game....

Ehhhhhhh! Wrong way to start a message on this list... There are no
"wrong ideas" about how to play Shadowrun. Relax.


> Force points can be used to purchase spells and foci.
> NOTHING ELSE.

That's not what it says in the book.. It says "Force points can be used to
purchase spells and foci." Whether they can be used for anything else is a
GM judgment call.


> Initiation is, by definition, something a mage might strive for, seek out
> and spend a lot of nuyen to do. Making contact with an initiate group is
> difficult (of should be) and they would only allow contact when they were
> satisfied the mage was ready.

Again, GM judgment call. A magician who starts Initiated COULD make sense,
depending on his/her background.. To spend that many Force Points would
mean sacrificing a lot of spells and foci, and I think that's balanced.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "It's better when showers of lead fly
My opinions are my opinions. | everywhere, don't you think?"
Please don't blame anyone else. | -- Frederik Lindblom
Message no. 10
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:30:14 +0000 (GMT)
>
> > I don't think you've got the right idea about the shadowrun game....
>
> Ehhhhhhh! Wrong way to start a message on this list... There are no
> "wrong ideas" about how to play Shadowrun. Relax.
>
>
> > Force points can be used to purchase spells and foci.
> > NOTHING ELSE.
>
> That's not what it says in the book.. It says "Force points can be used to
> purchase spells and foci." Whether they can be used for anything else is a
> GM judgment call.
>
>
> > Initiation is, by definition, something a mage might strive for, seek out
> > and spend a lot of nuyen to do. Making contact with an initiate group is
> > difficult (of should be) and they would only allow contact when they were
> > satisfied the mage was ready.
>
> Again, GM judgment call. A magician who starts Initiated COULD make sense,
> depending on his/her background.. To spend that many Force Points would
> mean sacrificing a lot of spells and foci, and I think that's balanced.
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> _TNX._
>
> --
> Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
> http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "It's better when showers of lead fly
> My opinions are my opinions. | everywhere, don't you think?"
> Please don't blame anyone else. | -- Frederik Lindblom
>

Point taken. I'll have to start using IMHO more! :)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: tkerby@***.net (Tim Kerby)
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 20:32:16 EST
On Fri, 8 Dec 1995 06:17:04 -0500 A, Halliwell wrote:

>I don't think you've got the right idea about the shadowrun game....
>
>Force points can be used to purchase spells and foci.
>NOTHING ELSE.

Of course, that is what the rules state. My question was a "why not: type;
besides, it is not explicitly forbidden in the rules to use force points for initiation.

>Initiation is, by definition, something a mage might strive for, seek out
>and spend a lot of nuyen to do. Making contact with an initiate group is
>difficult (of should be) and they would only allow contact when they were
>satisfied the mage was ready.

I agree with you. But why couldn't a character strive for initiation as a teen, or
young adult, assumed to have happened as part of his background before the character
creation process? Resources could be used to achieve this. And a character could
be ready early in his life. Certainly there are magical prodigys just as there are
intellectual and artisitic prodigys. Such an individual might be sought out to be
nurtured, and brought up right in the ways of magic.

>As for Physical Adepts....
>PA's CAN NOT CAST SPELLS. Thier magic is channelled into thier bodies and
>abilities by spending magic points. They do NOT get force points.

Well, duh! :) But as you mention later, force points can be used by a PA to gain
a weapon focus, and I feel they can be used to initiate for the reasons I state
above.


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
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Message no. 12
From: tkerby@***.net (Tim Kerby)
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 20:15:22 EST
On Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:35:44 -0500 S.F. Eley wrote:

>I tend to think of 'em as the Karma the character gets to start with.
>Spells are bought at a Karma Point per force rating, so that's a direct
>conversion. Foci might take more Force Points. Initiation? Well, if a
>starting character really wants to spend 9-12 points to get Grade 0, I'd say
>sure.. None of mine have thought about it yet, though. >8->

That is pretty much how we had thought.

>And Physical Adepts have nothing they need to spend Force Points on. Well,
>I guess they could buy a Weapon Focus with 'em, but that'll take more money
>than Force Points.

They do if they can initiate with them.


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
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Message no. 13
From: tkerby@***.net (Tim Kerby)
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 20:56:03 EST
On Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:21:46 -0500 S.F. Eley wrote:

>That's not what it says in the book.. It says "Force points can be used to
>purchase spells and foci." Whether they can be used for anything else is a
>GM judgment call.

That is exactly how it came up in our group.

>Again, GM judgment call. A magician who starts Initiated COULD make >sense,
depending on his/her background.. To spend that many Force Points >would mean
sacrificing a lot of spells and foci, and I think that's balanced.

Not to mention the resources the character would have to burn.


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
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Message no. 14
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Starting character - force points
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:11:29 +0100
S.F. Eley said on 8 Dec 95...

> > Force points can be used to purchase spells and foci.
> > NOTHING ELSE.
>
> That's not what it says in the book.. It says "Force points can be used
> to purchase spells and foci." Whether they can be used for anything else
> is a GM judgment call.

I allow magician players to start with elementals or nature spirits by
spending Force points. 1 Force point buys one rating point for the
spirit, and then you get to roll a Conjuring skill test as if you've just
conjured it to see how many services the spirit owes you. Tis is useful
mostly if you want to play a Conjurer adept, who have virtually no use for
Force points either, like physads.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn on a million blinding brilliant white incendiary lights
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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