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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Starting Gear
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:24:06 -0400
Hi folks,

I know that according to the rules in the BBB, a character can't purchase
any items that are higher than rating 6. Now, I might be mistaken, but I
think I have seen some of you mention that you also limit based on
availability. Basically, that if the availability rating is higher than
6, it's not allowed.

Is this how some of you play? Or is this just too limiting, in your
opinion? I just don't see how limiting items to rating 6 is really all
that limiting.

Thanks!

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:46:37 EST
> I know that according to the rules in the BBB, a character can't
> purchase any items that are higher than rating 6. Now, I might be
> mistaken, but I think I have seen some of you mention that you also
> limit based on availability. Basically, that if the availability
> rating is higher than 6, it's not allowed.
>
> Is this how some of you play? Or is this just too limiting, in your
> opinion? I just don't see how limiting items to rating 6 is really
> all that limiting.
Well, that is not how I played, but when the Companion came out, it
seemed to think that was the rule (I've never bothered to see if I
can find the rule), and thus the State of the Art Edge and such.

I have adapted it, and found that it saved me a great deal of saying
"No" as a GM. :) It is far from perfect however. Basically, I tell
characters making players that any gear with an availability over 6
has to be approved by me unless they get the SOTA edge. I approve
stuff based on whether I think the availability makes sense. I also
change the availability of many things (particularly Vehicles. Check
out the Windjinna(sp).)
Message no. 3
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:36:46 GMT
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:46:37 EST, Brett Borger wrote:

> > I know that according to the rules in the BBB, a character can't
> > purchase any items that are higher than rating 6. Now, I might be
> > mistaken, but I think I have seen some of you mention that you also
> > limit based on availability. Basically, that if the availability
> > rating is higher than 6, it's not allowed.
> >
> > Is this how some of you play? Or is this just too limiting, in your
> > opinion? I just don't see how limiting items to rating 6 is really
> > all that limiting.
> Well, that is not how I played, but when the Companion came out, it
> seemed to think that was the rule (I've never bothered to see if I
> can find the rule), and thus the State of the Art Edge and such.
>
> I have adapted it, and found that it saved me a great deal of saying
> "No" as a GM. :) It is far from perfect however. Basically, I tell
> characters making players that any gear with an availability over 6
> has to be approved by me unless they get the SOTA edge. I approve
> stuff based on whether I think the availability makes sense. I also
> change the availability of many things (particularly Vehicles. Check
> out the Windjinna(sp).)

... and laser sights. I cannot understand the fact that, in a gaming
universe where less than 5% of the population possesses cyberware,
smartgun links have a lower availability than good 'ole laser sights.
Sure, you can use smartgun links with "goggles", but who wants to lug
around a pair of vulnerable goggles that give away your intentions the
moment someone sees you wearing them?

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 4
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:29:11 EDT
On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:46:37 EST Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>
> Basically, I tell
>characters making players that any gear with an availability over 6
>has to be approved by me unless they get the SOTA edge.

Ick. I'd leave out the part about the SOTA Edge, unless they
specifically ask about it, and all edges(and flaws) MUST be rationalized
by my players. This helps backgrounds, and since I also use the CP2020
Lifepath charts, it all weaves together quite nicely.

>I approve
>stuff based on whether I think the availability makes sense. I also
>change the availability of many things (particularly Vehicles. Check
>out the Windjinna(sp).)

What exactly do you mean by this? Just curious because I tell my PC's to
use the availability under the description of the Wandjina - namely, you
need a valid Corporate or Military End User Certificate to get one. I
actually had a new player ask how he could get a hold of one. I said, "Do
you run security for a megacorp? Do you run an incorporated mercenary
unit? 'Cause that's the only way you'll get one." He's ALMOST got enough
to start the mercenary unit after a year and a half of steady runs, but
it'll consist of him and the rest of the team. =)

--
Wolfstar, Fearless Leader of Myself(Too bad my follower isn't fearless!)
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar - Home to Ellington General Ordinance!
Nothing says "I'm Elite" more than the sharp dressed hacker sporting his
very own ICBM!
(PS: Please allow 2-3 weeks for Federal Agents to collect enough data on
you
before busting in your door at 4am to arrest your sorry ass)
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:57:12 +0100
Brett Borger said on 14:46/12 Sep 97...

> Well, that is not how I played, but when the Companion came out, it
> seemed to think that was the rule (I've never bothered to see if I
> can find the rule), and thus the State of the Art Edge and such.

It does seem to assume something like that in places, yes... While the
only limit is on _rating_, not availability.

> I have adapted it, and found that it saved me a great deal of saying
> "No" as a GM. :) It is far from perfect however. Basically, I tell
> characters making players that any gear with an availability over 6
> has to be approved by me unless they get the SOTA edge. I approve
> stuff based on whether I think the availability makes sense. I also
> change the availability of many things (particularly Vehicles. Check
> out the Windjinna(sp).)

Players in my game can get just about anything during character
generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in the
game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
and mafia contacts, for example.

In last night's game, BTW, we had a guy sitting in (not playing) who'd
never seen SR before but had played AD&D, and he seemed to find it very
cool that you could get stuff like "sniper guns" in SR, and wondered why
the players didn't just buy miniguns and shot the hell out of everything
they ran into (this was the last adventure of Super Tuesday)... Even
repeated explanations of the police coming after you didn't seem to bring
him off the idea. (Me: "Because if you carry a gun like that on the
street, the first police item you'll see is the bullet from a sniper
rifle.")

Thinking about it, I'm starting to see why some of the other players
didn't want him in the game...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:32:40 EST
> >out the Windjinna(sp).)
>
> What exactly do you mean by this? Just curious because I tell my
> PC's to
> use the availability under the description of the Wandjina - namely,
> you need a valid Corporate or Military End User Certificate to get
> one. I actually had a new player ask how he could get a hold of one.

Yeah, but the point of the availibility ratings is so that we don't
HAVE to go through the gear descriptions of everything.
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:34:01 EST
> Players in my game can get just about anything during character
> generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in
> the game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
> and mafia contacts, for example.


I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
anything. Now I reinforce character history, and it works better.
Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:42:16 +0100
Brett Borger said on 14:34/14 Sep 97...

> > Players in my game can get just about anything during character
> > generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in
> > the game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
> > and mafia contacts, for example.
>
> I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> anything.

So take it away :) Someone robs their house/firebombs their hideout/blows
up their van and all that APDS is gone for good...

> Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!

Because it's easier to manufacture? Or maybe it's the military price,
which tends to be lower than for the same item on the civilian market
because military forces order more than just two boxes of the stuff at a
time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:04:46 EST
> > I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> > anything.
>
> So take it away :) Someone robs their house/firebombs their
> hideout/blows up their van and all that APDS is gone for good...

AS a player, I despise vindictive GMs that do things to me just
because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise. Accordingly, if at
all possible I try not to be that kind of GM.

> > Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!
>
> Because it's easier to manufacture? Or maybe it's the military
> price, which tends to be lower than for the same item on the
> civilian market because military forces order more than just two
> boxes of the stuff at a time.

hrmmph. I was more concerned with a game balance kind of thing, but
it isn't a huge difference anyway.
Message no. 10
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:23:18 GMT
On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:34:01 EST, Brett Borger wrote:

> > Players in my game can get just about anything during character
> > generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in
> > the game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
> > and mafia contacts, for example.
>
>
> I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> anything. Now I reinforce character history, and it works better.
> Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!

Realistically, APDS is cheaper to produce than flechette ammo. As for
play balance, that is another story...

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 11
From: Sir Philos Nex <philos@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:36:28 -0400
Brett Borger wrote:

> > Players in my game can get just about anything during character
> > generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in
> > the game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
> > and mafia contacts, for example.
>
> I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> anything. Now I reinforce character history, and it works better.
> Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!

Easy... volume. APDS is used by all forms of government and military
and everyone in between.. including shadowrunners. Last time you went
into a military style protected Ares facility did you take flechette or
APDS? That's what I thought :) and if you took the flechette I hope they
brought a body bag.. :) That means the cost of production can be spread
over a much more vast number of products and thusly a cheaper cost can be
charged. Also take a look at flechette rounds.. how many people use them
vs normal ammo? I've played SR since first edition was released and I've
only known one person to ever have any gun set up for flechettes and the
only reason he did that was to shoot any annoying players! If the demend
isn't there neither are the volume profits so a higher price must be
charged..

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 12
From: Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:48:56 -0500
Sir Philos Nex wrote:
>
> Brett Borger wrote:
>
> > > Players in my game can get just about anything during character
> > > generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in
> > > the game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
> > > and mafia contacts, for example.
> >
> > I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> > anything. Now I reinforce character history, and it works better.
> > Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!
>
> Easy... volume. APDS is used by all forms of government and military
> and everyone in between.. including shadowrunners. Last time you went
> into a military style protected Ares facility did you take flechette or
> APDS? That's what I thought :) and if you took the flechette I hope they
> brought a body bag.. :) That means the cost of production can be spread
> over a much more vast number of products and thusly a cheaper cost can be
> charged. Also take a look at flechette rounds.. how many people use them
> vs normal ammo? I've played SR since first edition was released and I've
> only known one person to ever have any gun set up for flechettes and the
> only reason he did that was to shoot any annoying players! If the demend
> isn't there neither are the volume profits so a higher price must be
> charged..
>
I have just one Question. Is APDS like a nail put in a sabot? Because If
it is that could be why it is so cheap.
Message no. 13
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:26:19 +0000
> > > I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> > > anything.
> >
> > So take it away :) Someone robs their house/firebombs their
> > hideout/blows up their van and all that APDS is gone for good...
>
> AS a player, I despise vindictive GMs that do things to me just
> because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise. Accordingly, if at
> all possible I try not to be that kind of GM.

'just because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise'.. hm. Okay.
They said something about pride somewhere..

First off, as a GM I like to try to make an interesting story or
situation for the players to interact with. A story where the main
characters always do everything perfectly, never do mistakes and get
barely a scratch becomes a bit too much like
<RANT>
Steven Segal movies - occassionally entertaining but extremely
repetitive. (I dunno if anyone else got my reaction to 'The
Glimmerman' - I have a strong feeling Mr. Segal has a seriously
bloated self - image. Consider the roles he's played in his last few
movies... he invariably fights off a number of enemies which is
supposed to be the world's best, singlehandedly... with not even the
standard 'let the big bad guy get in a hit or two then the hero
creams him' - it's a walkover. Secondly, he can do no wrong.
Even gets compliments on his nice style of clothing.
</RANT>

Um.. yeah. Where were I.. yes. Well. Characters like that get kinda
boring. Thinks I. Enough of that.

Bad luck can get anyone; it just have to be worse luck if you're
good. If a corp physad using, say, a Nightglider Turbo w. ruthenium
mods is dispatched by security on a site to find & follow the team..
(With stealth 12 it would be kinda hard to spot him; enough so that
it might work (MIGHT! Okay.. yes you can see him. But there's no
real sure way of doing so.). Or if the party has no mage and an
astral mage follows you.. or one of the shots fired at the PanzaerVan
From Hell was a tracking device.. and so on and so forth.

No team would find all of those all the time (add whatever other
more awake GM's can think of).. and only once would be enough.

Now, I agree with one thing - always give the players a chance. It's
no fun otherwise. But the first argument was that the players were
abusing the availability of stuff at the start to stockpile APDS and
similar; being relatively munchie, the GM can safely use dirty
tricks, although not actually cheating. (I'd prefer the solution of
not letting them get that in the first place, but that's just me. A
tug-of-war between the players and the GM of who can think up the
most munchkin idea is .. destructive for the fun of the game.).


But on the other hand, for my campaigns I usually only allow
availability <=6 items, and no modifications to any items before play
starts. They may start with an unusual item or two but it must fit
their background, and must be cleared by me. As for physads and
bonding foci; if they spend the cash for the item it's bonded. It's
an optional rule in the basic book, IIRC, and it doesn't seem too
unreasonable. After all, they are very expensive, and with limited
useability.. and it being expensive, they pay for it in skills and
attributes.

> > > Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!
> >
> > Because it's easier to manufacture? Or maybe it's the military
> > price, which tends to be lower than for the same item on the
> > civilian market because military forces order more than just two
> > boxes of the stuff at a time.
>
> hrmmph. I was more concerned with a game balance kind of thing, but
> it isn't a huge difference anyway.

It has 14 availability; it's pretty damn hard to get hold of.
Especially for my players. (I don't like the damn stuff anyway, so
they have a real hard time getting it. To balance it out, the
opposition never uses it either, but that shoud go without saying.).

As for why it is cheaper.. well, teflon bullets aren't particularily
expensive to make, but they are still pretty hard to get(or used
to be)... so hard the price might well go up compared to official
price. (What's the street index on the APDS's anyway?)
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:52:31 GMT
Justin Pinnow writes
>
> I know that according to the rules in the BBB, a character can't purchase
> any items that are higher than rating 6. Now, I might be mistaken, but I
> think I have seen some of you mention that you also limit based on
> availability. Basically, that if the availability rating is higher than
> 6, it's not allowed.
>
> Is this how some of you play?
The availability 6 rule is a house rule, but a fairly common one, it
avoids the continuous, no panther cannons, no miniguns, no winjanas,
etc etc, ie stops the 'i'll buy all the availbility 24 kit at startup
because i'll never make the availability rolls later'.

> Or is this just too limiting, in your
> opinion?
No considering you can get a smart, compensated Franchi 22 with IPEX
ammo for availability 6!

> I just don't see how limiting items to rating 6 is really all
> that limiting.
>
It's not, hence the common availability rule. Most GM's consider some
things of higher availability per character but its a good starting
point.

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:21:04 +1000
>Brett Borger wrote:
>
>> > Players in my game can get just about anything during character
>> > generation, but I make them roll for just about everything once in
>> > the game. APDS is rather hard to come by even if you have an Armorer
>> > and mafia contacts, for example.
>>
>> I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
>> anything. Now I reinforce character history, and it works better.
>> Why does APDS cost less than Flechette anyway?!?!
>
> Easy... volume. APDS is used by all forms of government and military
>and everyone in between.. including shadowrunners. Last time you went
>into a military style protected Ares facility did you take flechette or
>APDS? That's what I thought :) and if you took the flechette I hope they
>brought a body bag.. :) That means the cost of production can be spread
>over a much more vast number of products and thusly a cheaper cost can be
>charged. Also take a look at flechette rounds.. how many people use them
>vs normal ammo? I've played SR since first edition was released and I've
>only known one person to ever have any gun set up for flechettes and the
>only reason he did that was to shoot any annoying players! If the demend
>isn't there neither are the volume profits so a higher price must be
>charged..

As a GM I'm happy to say that APDS is very rare indeed. But normal bullets
work okay, remember that the average everday person has a Body of '3' and
that sercurity guard has a family too....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
'Press any key to continue | Computers make very, |
and any other key to quit.' | fast, very accurate mistakes.|
Geoff 'Da bloke wiv da big gun' Giesmann | -------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:10:21 +0100
Brett Borger said on 17:04/14 Sep 97...

> > So take it away :) Someone robs their house/firebombs their
> > hideout/blows up their van and all that APDS is gone for good...
>
> AS a player, I despise vindictive GMs that do things to me just
> because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise. Accordingly, if at
> all possible I try not to be that kind of GM.

I'm not talking about blowing it up just because the players have managed
to get hold of it. I know I wouldn't like it if the GM did such a thing
regularly, but someone breaking into a player's house shouldn't be ruled
out, IMHO. Same with someone blowing up a car to send them a warning; if
the stuff they stockpiled happens to be there, then it's bad luck for
them, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:32:38 GMT
Fade writes

> > > > I used to do this, but they'd stockpile and rarely have to get
> > > > anything.
A good reason for starting controls because otherwise even for
sensible players stockpiling just makes too much sense.

> > >
> > > So take it away :) Someone robs their house/firebombs their
> > > hideout/blows up their van and all that APDS is gone for good...
But (as you commented later) this needs to be done with a reason.
GM's that do this 'just because they can' are stupid. Sure this sort
of thing can happen but having it happen to PC's in a game every time
they get something the GM really doesn't like sucks because the
players don't get anywhere.

> > AS a player, I despise vindictive GMs that do things to me just
> > because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise. Accordingly, if at
> > all possible I try not to be that kind of GM.
>
> 'just because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise'.. hm. Okay.
> They said something about pride somewhere..
>
Nobodys to good to let it happen otherwise totally though experienced
players can make it pretty difficult for some GM's thought the lack
is with the GM. I have managed to take some pretty amazing things off
players, like 1 Billion in Areas shares :) [ex a certain FASA
adventure] because they got themselves in it up to the neck, but it
that case the player knew what was going on was 'fishy as anything'
just his character would have done it so he did.

> First off, as a GM I like to try to make an interesting story or
> situation for the players to interact with. A story where the main
> characters always do everything perfectly, never do mistakes and get
> barely a scratch becomes a bit too much like
boring.
Yes even the party that Yesterday dismantled the hardest corporate
run i ever wrote in 4 hours flat without getting a scratch or perm
killing a single guard (a couple got hospitalised by a stray grenade)
made the odd slipup in the process. They found a way to clear the
security center only they didn't check the small rooms off the main
one, so the folks in thier found out, but by then both security
riggers were well out of it (which left a general alert and no ICC to
find the runners with!)
It is astounding what a bit of research can do, and some planning
followed by some quick bag filling. By the time they came back out of
the research labs a multi layer ambush awaited, so they backed up,
improvised a hole in the wall for a moments suprise and then ran
like hell!

> Bad luck can get anyone; it just have to be worse luck if you're
> good. If a corp physad using, say, a Nightglider Turbo w. ruthenium
> mods is dispatched by security on a site to find & follow the team..
> (With stealth 12 it would be kinda hard to spot him; enough so that
> it might work (MIGHT! Okay.. yes you can see him. But there's no
> real sure way of doing so.). Or if the party has no mage and an
> astral mage follows you.. or one of the shots fired at the PanzaerVan
> From Hell was a tracking device.. and so on and so forth.
>
If they get noticed and traced physically / astrally or get shot on
AAA turf yes these can be fair. Why because in this cas ethe GM has a
reasonable and logical explanation for why the found the team.

> No team would find all of those all the time (add whatever other
> more awake GM's can think of).. and only once would be enough.
>
Oh fun can be had. I have seen more than one PC willingly walk into a
one on one meet that was acually a trap set by roleplaying, though
one found a roleplayed way to deal out that didn't hurt and the other
had not taken the party because he suspected and recconed (correctly)
that he could last long enough to do a magical 'get me outa here!!!'.

> Now, I agree with one thing - always give the players a chance. It's
> no fun otherwise.
agreed.

> But the first argument was that the players were
> abusing the availability of stuff at the start to stockpile APDS and
> similar; being relatively munchie, the GM can safely use dirty
> tricks, although not actually cheating.
yes, though in this case the GM is partially guilty as well.
Givingbthe bad guys APDS as well would abe a more appropriate
comeback :)

> (I'd prefer the solution of
> not letting them get that in the first place, but that's just me. A
> tug-of-war between the players and the GM of who can think up the
> most munchkin idea is .. destructive for the fun of the game.).
agreed !!

>
> But on the other hand, for my campaigns I usually only allow
> availability <=6 items, and no modifications to any items before play
> starts. They may start with an unusual item or two but it must fit
> their background, and must be cleared by me.
sensible and fair really, becasue if you play the super toys back
game on starting characters the game rappidly becomes so deadly one
slip and you die which can (although very realistic) be a bit bad for
player enjoyment.

> As for physads and
> bonding foci; if they spend the cash for the item it's bonded. It's
> an optional rule in the basic book, IIRC, and it doesn't seem too
> unreasonable. After all, they are very expensive, and with limited
> useability.. and it being expensive, they pay for it in skills and
> attributes.
>
i generally would allow the physad the force points due from the
character creation system, if they took one to bond it with but ONLY
towards bonding the focus, any left over simply dissapear again it
allows bonding the focus (which cost enough!) without munchkins
trading in 30 force points for 15 building points! which after the
compainion seems to be that main reason against this.
With some sense it can work quite happily.

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:58:30 +0000
> > > AS a player, I despise vindictive GMs that do things to me just
> > > because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise. Accordingly, if at
> > > all possible I try not to be that kind of GM.
> >
> > 'just because I'm too good to let it happen otherwise'.. hm. Okay.
> > They said something about pride somewhere..
> >
Let's just say I'm more creative than they are when it comes to
GM'ing. That's why they insist I be GM :(

I'm not proud. I'm too good to be proud. :)


Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 19
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:46:05 -0700
---Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I know that according to the rules in the BBB, a character can't
purchase
> any items that are higher than rating 6. Now, I might be mistaken,
but I
> think I have seen some of you mention that you also limit based on
> availability. Basically, that if the availability rating is higher
than
> 6, it's not allowed.
>
> Is this how some of you play? Or is this just too limiting, in your
> opinion? I just don't see how limiting items to rating 6 is really
all
> that limiting.

Yes, per the SR Companion suggestion I limit my players to sarting
with gear up to an availability of 6. So far it's worked out well, and
has more of the "beginning character" feel. It gives them goals to
shoot for, rather than walking in with everything already in their
mits.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:31:26 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 14:32/15 Sep 97...

> > But the first argument was that the players were
> > abusing the availability of stuff at the start to stockpile APDS and
> > similar; being relatively munchie, the GM can safely use dirty
> > tricks, although not actually cheating.
> yes, though in this case the GM is partially guilty as well.
> Givingbthe bad guys APDS as well would abe a more appropriate
> comeback :)

An inherent problem with fighting too much gear with too much gear is that
the players will get their hands on some of it too. Give the opposition
APDS and there's a big chance players will pick up a few clips, thereby
increasing their stock of APDS, which the GM was trying to make them get
rid of...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:40:04 GMT
Gurth writes

> Mark Steedman said on 14:32/15 Sep 97...
>
> > yes, though in this case the GM is partially guilty as well.
> > Givingbthe bad guys APDS as well would abe a more appropriate
> > comeback :)
>
> An inherent problem with fighting too much gear with too much gear is that
> the players will get their hands on some of it too. Give the opposition
> APDS and there's a big chance players will pick up a few clips, thereby
> increasing their stock of APDS, which the GM was trying to make them get
> rid of...
>
Which is why as i noted elsewhere i prefer prevention in advance. If
the PC's have 100+ rounds of APDS just giving them lots of badguys to
shoot will take a long long time.
No this solution is not perfect (far from it) , but give the bad guys
APDS to and although the PC's may well acquire more they are likely
to bemoan the Docwagon bills (which will be far more than the cost of
more ammo), and dead characters.

Mark
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:20:00 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
| Mark Steedman said on 14:32/15 Sep 97...
|
| > > But the first argument was that the players were
| > > abusing the availability of stuff at the start to stockpile APDS and
| > > similar; being relatively munchie, the GM can safely use dirty
| > > tricks, although not actually cheating.
|
| > yes, though in this case the GM is partially guilty as well.
| > Givingbthe bad guys APDS as well would abe a more appropriate
| > comeback :)
|
| An inherent problem with fighting too much gear with too much gear is that
| the players will get their hands on some of it too. Give the opposition
| APDS and there's a big chance players will pick up a few clips, thereby
| increasing their stock of APDS, which the GM was trying to make them get
| rid of...

Yup, starting an arms race is not a good idea. Look at the USA and
the USSR as an example. Sooner or later one side is going to lose
and they won't be playing the game anymore.

If the players initiate an arms race my tactic is to initiate a story
race. I confront arms with creative NPCs, plots, and storytelling.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 23
From: Simon Renshaw <Renshaw@**********.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:27:41 -0400
------ =_NextPart_000_01BCC300.4BF07F40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Hi ...

according to the "less than rating 6 starting gear" rule, what's the maximum
rating of a custom deck created with VR 2.0 rules ???
the archetypes in the book got a deck with a MPCP of 8 ....

oh yeah ... and the max rating of programs ? 6 too ?

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Message no. 24
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:05:46 -0500
At 16-Sep-97 wrote Simon Renshaw:

No attachments, silly boy !!!!!!!!

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 25
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:34:58 EDT
On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:27:41 -0400 Simon Renshaw
<Renshaw@**********.QC.CA> writes:
>
>according to the "less than rating 6 starting gear" rule, what's the
>maximum rating of a custom deck created with VR 2.0 rules ???
>the archetypes in the book got a deck with a MPCP of 8 ....
>
>oh yeah ... and the max rating of programs ? 6 too ?

Okay, first things first: CHANGE THE MAIL PROGRAM!!!!!! I'm gettinga LOT
of garbage from every mail you send. I don't know what it's from, but I'd
suggest you fix it quick.

As for the decks and the programs, the ruling we use is that if the
decker custom-built his(or her) own deck, then they may have maximum
ratings - assuming they've A)Got the money for components, B) can justify
the total time in their background, and C) make the appropriate skill
rolls. If they miss the roll, they can always try again - after they
spend the money to replace the ruined components, of course. <EGMG> We do
the same for the programs, too. Only they're cheaper to write. As for
buying the decks A la carte, I'd say limit 'em to six, same with
programs.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:48:53 +0100
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AAAARGH!!!!

Another one!
We're being invaded by clueless newbies!!!!!

Run for your lives!

(or, to put it another way, you can tell universities have just started,
can't you?)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
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Message no. 27
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:52:00 GMT
on 16.09.97 M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK wrote:

MJS> Which is why as i noted elsewhere i prefer prevention in advance. If
MJS> the PC's have 100+ rounds of APDS just giving them lots of badguys to
MJS> shoot will take a long long time.
MJS> No this solution is not perfect (far from it) , but give the bad guys
MJS> APDS to and although the PC's may well acquire more they are likely
MJS> to bemoan the Docwagon bills (which will be far more than the cost of
MJS> more ammo), and dead characters.

I don't get it. If you don't want your players to have APDS, just don't
let them have it. I mean, do you never check the chars before letting
people play them?



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 28
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting Gear
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:45:06 GMT
Tobias Berghoff writes

> on 16.09.97 M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK wrote:
>
> MJS> Which is why as i noted elsewhere i prefer prevention in advance. If
> MJS> the PC's have 100+ rounds of APDS just giving them lots of badguys to
> MJS> shoot will take a long long time.
> MJS> No this solution is not perfect (far from it) , but give the bad guys
> MJS> APDS to and although the PC's may well acquire more they are likely
> MJS> to bemoan the Docwagon bills (which will be far more than the cost of
> MJS> more ammo), and dead characters.
>
> I don't get it. If you don't want your players to have APDS, just don't
> let them have it. I mean, do you never check the chars before letting
> people play them?
oh i do! i was however trying to help solve other peoples problems
after they had suffered from this problem. I most certainly do check
characters and keep a very careful eye on supplies of APDS and C12
(the other item with problems like this if the PC's get very much of
it)

Be careful of what context i made the comments in. though its not
easy to keep track :)

Mark

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Starting Gear, you may also be interested in:

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