Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:09:05 -0400
Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what starting
characters can purchase/own. Personally, I usually don't allow anything
heavier than an assault rifle (grenade launchers being the only exception)
and light security armor...and the light armor I let have begrudgingly with
the understanding that they can't just go walking down the streets of
Seattle wearing this stuff...

Does this seem reasonable/unreasonable to anybody else? What do you usually
use for policy?

Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns? I've been thinking 500 for
the easy runs, 1000 for the more difficult, and closer to 2500 per character
for the highest difficulties...(full assault on a major corp for instance)
Only problem I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're used
to getting 5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should I just
stick with this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast that way...

(I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma system. Some would
probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 karma for a job well
done...characterwise at least. More points for playing exceptionally well,
professionalism, proficiency, etc...)
Message no. 2
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:13:24 -0600
James Mick wrote:

>Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns? I've been thinking 500 for
>the easy runs, 1000 for the more difficult, and closer to 2500 per character
>for the highest difficulties...(full assault on a major corp for instance)
>Only problem I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're used
>to getting 5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should I just
>stick with this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast that way...

I don't base the money offered on the difficulty of the job. I base it on
what the job is worth to the person hiring the shadowrunners, how much they
can spend, and what they're willing to spend.

A rich guy who is stingy may try to charge the runners as little as
possible to find his wife's poodle (particularly if he doesn't like the dog).

A poor squatter on the streets may give up his life's savings to find his
daughter. Course, his life's savings might be 200 nuyen. If the daughter
was picked up by a couple of scientists who needed a research subject for a
corp project, the run may be exceptionally challenging. But that doesn't
change the fact that the father can only offer 200 nuyen. Note, if the
runners complete a mission like this they usually get a goodly sum of karma :)

>(I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma system. Some would
>probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 karma for a job well
>done...characterwise at least. More points for playing exceptionally well,
>professionalism, proficiency, etc...)

My karma awards usually range from 5-10 karma. I'm not at all stingy with
roll playing, drama in character, or humor in character points :)


To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Wisdom has two parts: having a lot to say, and not saying it."
Message no. 3
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:25:45 GMT
>From: "James Mick" <sinabian@********.net>
>Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what starting
>characters can purchase/own.
<snip>

No item with an availability higher than 8 is normal.

>Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns? I've been thinking 500 for
>the easy runs, 1000 for the more difficult, and closer to 2500 per
>character
>for the highest difficulties...(full assault on a major corp for instance)
>Only problem I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're used
>to getting 5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should I just
>stick with this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast that way...

500Y!!!
Only if you expect them to starve :)> 500¥ is the kind of ammount you
should pay a contact for information. I pay runners an average of 5000¥ per
run, do bear in mind that it costs about 1000¥ a month to keep a roof over
your head and shoes on your feet.

>(I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma system. Some would
>probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 karma for a job well
>done...characterwise at least. More points for playing exceptionally well,
>professionalism, proficiency, etc...)

5-6 karma is about right. But then I have been accused of being mean.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 4
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:34:05 -0400
>500Y!!!
>Only if you expect them to starve :)> 500¥ is the kind of ammount you
>should pay a contact for information. I pay runners an average of 5000¥
per
>run, do bear in mind that it costs about 1000¥ a month to keep a roof over
>your head and shoes on your feet.



LoL! Well my thinking was along the lines of it wouldn't be the only run
that month. So 2 penny-ante runs like that in one month and they'd be taken
care of. But I don't think I'll be able to drag them away from the luxurious
and exorbitant 5k¥ a run anyway... I guess it would have to depend on the
run itself...
Message no. 5
From: DV8 dv8@***.nl
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:34:47 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> 500Y!!!
> Only if you expect them to starve :)> 500¥ is the kind of ammount you
> should pay a contact for information. I pay runners an average of 5000¥
per
> run, do bear in mind that it costs about 1000¥ a month to keep a roof over
> your head and shoes on your feet.
>
> >(I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma system. Some would
> >probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 karma for a job
well
> >done...characterwise at least. More points for playing exceptionally
well,
> >professionalism, proficiency, etc...)
>
> 5-6 karma is about right. But then I have been accused of being mean.

Hmm,...I give a bit more ¥ per run, but then again I give them karma per
session...mostly 1 or 2 karma,...if they've been good 3. My sessions are
once a week and last for about 4 or 5 hours.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 6
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:37:10 -0400
From: "James Mick" <sinabian@********.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:34 PM


> >500Y!!!
> >Only if you expect them to starve :)> 500¥ is the kind of ammount you
> >should pay a contact for information. I pay runners an average of 5000¥
> per
> >run, do bear in mind that it costs about 1000¥ a month to keep a roof
over
> >your head and shoes on your feet.
>
>
>
> LoL! Well my thinking was along the lines of it wouldn't be the only run
> that month. So 2 penny-ante runs like that in one month and they'd be
taken
> care of. But I don't think I'll be able to drag them away from the
luxurious
> and exorbitant 5k¥ a run anyway... I guess it would have to depend on the
> run itself...
>
>

Well, I usually pay based on a few factors:

1) How complete are the details of the run given? IE: If the Johnson is
providing you with maps, aerial intelligence, etc, then he expects you to be
nothing more than just to go in and do your job, making it a fairly low
paying job. On the other hand, if an Oyabun wants you to assassinate the
rival Mob Don, and doesn't tell you anything, that is a fairly high paying
job. =)

2) How high are the perceived risks? IE: If the runners think it will be a
cakewalk, and it is presented as such, then the pay will be low. If it looks
hard, the offered pay should be high. =)

3) How well are the runners doing this week? IE: I check how much they've
been paid in the last few months and see how far along they are. =) If money
is a' flowin' out of their ears, the next jobs might be light on the money
and heavier on the karma.

The other thing I use is make the karma and nuyen be inversely proportional.
For an avg run: Standard B&E, data recovery type of run: about 5-6K per
person, with 1 karma for surviving, 3 karma for job completion, and a few
karmas for good ideas, humor, etc. =)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 7
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:37:52 GMT
>From: "James Mick" <sinabian@********.net>
>LoL! Well my thinking was along the lines of it wouldn't be the only run
>that month. So 2 penny-ante runs like that in one month and they'd be taken
>care of. But I don't think I'll be able to drag them away from the
>luxurious
>and exorbitant 5k¥ a run anyway... I guess it would have to depend on the
>run itself...

The BBB desn't give you much information as to how you should run a
campaign, I would suggest the SRComp. which has what is essentially the
other half of the Beyond The Shadows chapter.

BTW, how often do all the GMs out there send runners on a run in game time?
I send them on about 2 a month.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Kenneth Vinson kennethv@****.wisc.edu
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:02:19 +0000
James Mick wrote:
>
> Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what starting
> characters can purchase/own. Personally, I usually don't allow anything
> heavier than an assault rifle (grenade launchers being the only exception)
> and light security armor...and the light armor I let have begrudgingly with
> the understanding that they can't just go walking down the streets of
> Seattle wearing this stuff...
>
> Does this seem reasonable/unreasonable to anybody else? What do you usually
> use for policy?
>

As several other people have replied to the money portion of the
question I'll restrict myself to the starting equipment portion. I'm
currently running a game wherein the characters weren't allowed to start
with any firearms heavier than an SMG, equipment with ratings *or*
availabilities higher than 6, and no attribute enhancing
cyberware/powers (i.e. wired reflexes, muscle aug, etc.) with a rating
higher than 1. This may sound somewhat draconian but the characters
were more than capable of handling both published runs and runs I came
up with. My general strategy is to encourage the players to come up
with interesting ways to overcome obstacles by not giving them enough
firepower to make the "frontal assault" approach feasible. As always,
GM's should tailor their games to their own, and their player's,
enjoyment and expectations.

Cheers,

Ken Vinson
Message no. 9
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:02:33 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, James Mick wrote:

> Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what starting
> characters can purchase/own.

[SNIP]

> Does this seem reasonable/unreasonable to anybody else? What do you usually
> use for policy?

I find that the basic rules laid out in SR3 (no equipment with a
Rating or Availability higher than 6) serves pretty well. This keeps most
of the really munchy equipment to a minimum for starting characters, and
if they really want that wiz-bang gear, then they pay for it with the
"Cutting Edge Gear" edge from SRComp (which in turn means that they'll
take flaws more often than not, giving me lots of devious foils and plot
hooks).
Use whatever method makes the most sense for your campaign,
though. If you want players to have access to more tech-toys, by all
means go for it. If you don't, you can adjust the max Rating/Availability
numbers to get a more reasonable range of starting equipment.

> Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns? I've been thinking 500 for
> the easy runs, 1000 for the more difficult, and closer to 2500 per character
> for the highest difficulties...(full assault on a major corp for instance)

I wouldn't wash a Westwind for 500 nuyen. Seriously. And 2500
for a major assault on a corp? Tell me you dropped a zero somewhere...
Seriously, though, you're asking people to risk incarceration or
their very lives in a number of instances. There are only so many folks
who have the skills/will to do that kind of work successfully. Look at
the risks involved and you'll see that offering the characters a measly
500 nuyen to complete a run isn't really worth it. After all, if it's
only worth 500 nuyen a pop, it's probably simple enough that gangers could
do it, in which case why risk real talent?

> Only problem I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're used
> to getting 5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should I just
> stick with this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast that way...

How do you figure? Sure, maybe if you're running every day, then
yes, they'll amass some cash. But there are plenty of ways to part
characters from their cash. Lifestyle is one. Always having to buy new
fake ID's is another (as ID's get blown so easily and they're meant to be
expendable). Also, be a bastard when it comes to cyberware damage. I
have one player that's looking at getting his Reflexes fixed because he
got them damaged in the last session. With doctors fees (something else
you should enforce), he's easily looking at a number at least in the tens
of thousands of nuyen just to get it fixed, let alone buy any other 'ware.
Also, make your players keep track of where their money is. It's
easy to lose money, especially if it's associated with an ID that gets
blown. If the authorities have reason to believe that an account is
linked to a criminal, they may just freeze that account. I've had
careless players lose scads of money this way.
Further, consider equipment and/or transportation costs. The
players may have a lot of "consumable" equipment that they will require
for a run but that they may never be able to re-use (parachutes or gliders
that provide covert entrance to a facility but really can't be taken out
again due to their bulk/weight, or demolitions that the characters use to
gain entrance or cover an escape). My players go through vehicles like
crazy, because they don't want to be traced. As such, they'll buy a
vehicle only to ditch it (or torch it) a short time later.
Finally, consider the timing of runs. If you're doing a run every
day, then 500 nuyen a pop may not be so bad. But if it takes two weeks of
legwork and prep work to even be able to attempt a run, 500 nuyen is
nothing. My players average about two runs a month, less if they're
taking time off to train. This means that their cash doesn't really
accumulate as fast as you might imagine.

> (I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma system. Some would
> probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 karma for a job well
> done...characterwise at least. More points for playing exceptionally well,
> professionalism, proficiency, etc...)

This is more a matter of taste than anything else. Your award is
actually a little high for my blood, but I'm stingy. :) I don't
typically give out 5 base karma unless the players have pulled off an
extremely difficult mission flawlessly (which only rearely happens :).

Marc
Message no. 10
From: LDYTinne@***.com LDYTinne@***.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:25:02 EDT
[snip]
>In a message dated Tue, 18 Jul 2000 4:05:28 PM Eastern >Daylight Time, "James
Mick" <sinabian@********.net> >writes:
>(I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma >system. Some would
>probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 >karma for a job well
>done...characterwise at least. More points for playing >exceptionally well,
>professionalism, proficiency, etc...)

I like my self invented Justify Your Exsistence Karma/XP system. (and so do my co
gmemasters) Each player turns in a sheet stating what she/he did during that session that
was of note and worthy of karma. The GM reviews the submission. Giving 1 pt for minor
good things worthy of points and 2 for Major goals achieved. Things that make the entire
group fall into fits of laughter are worth 1-2 points. Justification will also help the
GM to get the players to prestate big goals or they cannot later be given points for them.
This also helps the gamemaster put plots in the sessions for the characters so that they
may be able to achive their goals. Justification sheets should be retuned to the players
so that they may see what they did well (enough for points,) thus being able to possibly
learn from success and mistakes; which can be commented privately by the GM.

I hope his hopes you Mr. Mick,
Tinne



>>
Message no. 11
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:01:46 -0700
500 nuyen per run is a bit....stingy, in my book.

One thing you have to think about is that nuyen is to samurai what karma is
to mages. Most cybertypes would like to eventually be able to upgrade
their cyberware. At 500 nuyen a run, even with 4 runs a month, considering
1000 nuyen a month lifestyle, they will never make enough money to get
better cyberware (alpha grade, hgiher level, etc...) Ok, well, maybe not
never, but in the course of a normal SR campaign, it will be a long, long,
long, long ways away

On a similiar note, if you make characters pay to get training in some
skills, they won't really be able to pay for anyone to train them on that
rate, and thus, not be able to improve their skills. This might not bother
the rat shaman who needs little upkeep, but the decker, or the cyber type,
or even worse, the Face, who might keep up a better lifestyle, is going to
go broke fast.

Of course, it all depends on the level of your game. If they are all
street gangers, making piddling runs, then 500 nuyen is not bad. Of
course, they might decide to going into knocking over a jewelry shop to get
more money...:)

Dave
Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:31:32 -0700 (PDT)
> >500Y!!!
> >Only if you expect them to starve :)> 500¥ is the
kind of ammount you should pay a contact for
information. I pay runners an average of 5000¥ per
run, do bear in mind that it costs about 1000¥ a month
to keep a roof overyour head and shoes on your feet.
>
> LoL! Well my thinking was along the lines of it
wouldn't be the only run that month. So 2 penny-ante
runs like that in one month and they'd be taken care
of. But I don't think I'll be able to drag them away
from the luxurious and exorbitant 5k¥ a run anyway...
I guess it would have to depend on the run itself...

James, this isn't one of those forbidden topics, but
it probably should be. Fortunately, no one ever seems
to come to blows over it, but it is, ultimately,
pointless.

You hit upon the reason in your last sentence. It all
depends on the run/campaign/GM/what's on television
this week etc.

For instance, in my campaigns, the average negotiated
payment is between 20 and 30k per run. Bonuses can
take it higher. Of course, I'm running PBeMs atm and
in the campaign I'm thinking of only one run has been
completed in the two and a half years (or is it three
and a half?) the game's been going (I'm trying to get
away from such epic runs ;) ). The characters ended up
with an average karma award of between 50-60 karma for
the run and they each got about 80k in cash.

That's not going to work for you, though. :)

What you need to do is decide on how much you want to
pay them. Just decide. And let them know your intended
pay scale. I do think Phil's right in that 500 nuyen
per run (even with multiple runs per month) is too
low, unless a) the runs are simple deliveries with one
combat and no plot twists, or something similar, or b)
you're running a street level campaign, where a heavy
pistol is a BIG THING! As a player, I'd generally try
to negotiate even 5k up a lot (unless the GM sat down
beforehand and told us that 5k was going to be a good
payment for his campaign).

If you find that you're paying them too little, you
can always increase the payments (unless they've
gotten fed up with having to scrimp and save to buy
every single bullet and walked out on you ;) ). And if
you're paying them too much, you can a) tell them so
and tell them you're reducing the payments, or b)
start to incur property damage. :) If the players are
losing weapons, armour and other gear on every run,
even 20 or 30k per run is going to go fast.

*Doc' goes in search of the fabled Gunucopia..."I will
never pay for another Ares Alpha again!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 13
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:32:59 -0500
From: Marc Renouf
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 5:03 PM

> I find that the basic rules laid out in SR3 (no equipment with a
> Rating or Availability higher than 6) serves pretty well.

Even though the basic rule is Availability of 8 and/or Rating of 6. Unless
the GM is a bastard with wicked plans. <g>

Of course, since there's been a major fatality in the run group, and most of
the rest of the team are either in a coma or in a Knight-Errant holding
facility, something nasty is fixing to have to happen on my part this
Saturday.... Damn, I hate it when that happens. (No, really, I do; I don't
set out to kill my PCs, contrary to the philosophy of some GMs I could
name.)

--
Patrick E. Goodman
pgoodman13@************.com
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:33:03 -0500
From: James Mick
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 3:09 PM

> Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what
> starting characters can purchase/own.

Basic rule in SR3 is Availability of 8 and/or a Rating of 6. This works
pretty well for me (though I will bend it for story effect on occasion).

> Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns? I've been
> thinking 500 for the easy runs, 1000 for the more difficult,
> and closer to 2500 per character for the highest difficulties...

There's a good guide for this in the SR3 Companion. I think your rates are
a little on the starvation wages side of the scale myself, but I run a more
cinematic action-movie kind of game. YMMV.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
pgoodman13@************.com
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:44:38 -0700 (PDT)
<snipt!(TM)>
> > Does this seem reasonable/unreasonable to anybody
else? What do you usually use for policy?
>
> I find that the basic rules laid out in SR3 (no
equipment with a Rating or Availability higher than 6)
serves pretty well.

Err, actually...

According to SR3, no equipment with a Rating higher
than 6, or Availability higher than *8* is available
at creation. Make sure you get that right. If you make
it 6 and 6 you're already disadvantaging your players
from the standard rules and you should be aware that
you're doing so. I'm not saying it's WRONG, just that
you should know the correct info from the book, so you
know just what it is you're doing to your players. :)

> This keeps most of the really munchy equipment to a
minimum for starting characters, and if they really
want that wiz-bang gear, then they pay for it with the
"Cutting Edge Gear" edge from SRComp (which in turn
means that they'll take flaws more often than not,
giving me lots of devious foils and plot hooks).
<BigSNIP(TM)>
<Marc Renouf>

Uh, Marc, maybe this is just me, but I don't know that
edge. The SRII Comp had the SOTA edge (which was just
for cyber and bioware, IIRC), but that's gone from the
SR3 Comp. Is there a "Cutting Edge Gear" edge in the
SR3 Comp that I've been missing all this time? If so,
oops. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 16
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:17:22 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: James Mick <sinabian@********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:09 PM
Subject: starting limits?


> Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what starting
> characters can purchase/own.

Personally, I have a list of things... gear, spells, adept powers, bioware,
cyber, etc... that I don't allow starting playes to begin the campaign with.
This is mostly the more powerful stuff that can easily unbalance a game out
early on.

I now let PCs start with Alpha Grade cyberware... but I don't let them start
with any bioware or better cyberware (maybe I'm stingy, but I treat it like
I do magic items in D&D... keep it rare and sought after and use it as
'rewards' for a job well done)

As for limits to weapons and gear... generally I do rating 6 off the start
and my players know enough not to try and slip stuff past me in the way of
other things.

If I'm doing a special campaign... (have run a gang and mafia campaign) then
I provided the PCs with a limited list of things they may acquire off the
start and I curtailed their starting cash.

Contacts I do totally different from the SR system so I won't even bring
that up...


> Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns? I've been thinking 500
for
> the easy runs, 1000 for the more difficult, and closer to 2500 per
character
> for the highest difficulties...(full assault on a major corp for instance)
> Only problem I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're used
> to getting 5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should I just
> stick with this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast that way...


well ya gotta consider a few things here (I read ahead to responses here and
sadly alot of people didn't think too hard on this one). If the PCs are
pocketing only 500-1000¥ per run... what would happen if one of them got
hospitalized? even 10K in surgery would be unaffordable... and even if the
PCs all pooled their resources they wouldn't be able to pay rent for that
month on their own lifestyle.

And even if they aren't... if a PC is banged up and has to rest up for 15-20
days... they won't be doing any more running for awhile as they nurse
wounds... won't be able to afford rent, yet again.

Thing you wanna do too, is you wanna let the PCs have goals and let them try
and attain them. You say you don't want them to be too powerful too fast...
its hard to be too powerful if you are making 5,000¥ a month (say 2 runs a
month... 10k then)

First, as GM you got the say as to what is available or not... just cuz a PC
has a fixer contact and he wants a panther assault cannon, doesn't mean you
have to have one for sale. Roll dice... tell the PC sorry, maybe next time.

My thought here really is... your PCs can't do anything with chump change
like that... think ahead... things like spell locks, power foci, teacher,
hermetic library... your mage won't be able to afford any of that.

The team decker... sure he can write his own programs... thats fine... IF he
has 3 years of free time. Otherwise he needs money and a few bucks just
ain't gonna cover it.

you get the idea... so we'll move along.

What I pay the PCs depends on the difficulty of the run. If its something
that is going to take them only 2 or 3 hours to do, and its pretty easy
overall, they might get 500-5000¥ each for the run. Pretty much you can be
safe starting them off on a few 1k runs to start and then move up as the
runs get harder... as well though, if you don't wanna pay them too much, but
want to give out rewards once in awhile... you can do that with gear and
paydata.


> (I think I've got a good enough feel for the karma system. Some would
> probably disagree but I usually give away a base of 5 karma for a job well
> done...characterwise at least. More points for playing exceptionally well,
> professionalism, proficiency, etc...)

I brought this up before, but I'll bring it up again.

In SR1 and 2 they had more info on the karma system. Seems there is a whole
paragraph missing in SR3 in that section.

In SR2 they used to say...

each PC at the end of the run gets:
1 Karma for Survival (They lived through the run)
1 Karma per Success (per goal achieved)
0 or Higher Karma for Threat (Fasa used to reccomend a cap at 5 for threat,
but this would all be up to you... and this is based on the overall
difficulty of the run... they'd say that 0 was a simple run, 1 was about
normal with some opposition, 2 would be well armed and cunning foes, while 5
would be a nightmarish adventure of death and destruction)

And then after that, the PCs get their personal karma awards.

Generally for me... I forked out about 2 team karma for the first 2 or 3
runs before I started throwing in multiple Success or adding more than 0 for
threat. and then whatever the PCs earn for individual is up to you... some
GMs will allow any PC that tells a crummy joke to have 1 karma for humour...
others need the whole group to be rolling on the floor laughing before they
get anything

well hopefully thats of some help.. woulda been a better message if it
wasn't for this cold.

Aug
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:49:00 +0200
According to James Mick, at 16:09 on 18 Jul 00, the word on the street
was...

> Just curious to know how many GMs out there put a limit on what starting
> characters can purchase/own. Personally, I usually don't allow anything
> heavier than an assault rifle (grenade launchers being the only exception)
> and light security armor...and the light armor I let have begrudgingly with
> the understanding that they can't just go walking down the streets of
> Seattle wearing this stuff...

I just use the limits from SR3: nothing with a rating over 6 or an
Availability TN over 8. If someone wants a machinegun or heavy armor, I
don't care as long as it fits those limits.

> Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for shadowruns?

If you have the Shadowrun Companion (for third edition), look at page 100
for a Baseline Shadowrun Payment Table.

> Only problem I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're
> used to getting 5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should
> I just stick with this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast
> that way...

Problems like that are probably best solved, IMHO, by ending the current
campaign and starting a new one where the runners get paid a lot less than
in the last one. The reason being, if you suddenly start paying characters
10% or 20% of what they're used to, they (and their players) will object.
New characters in a new campaign, though, won't really have that problem,
although you will want to discuss it with the players first to explain
that you want this to be a low-level, low-payment campaign. If they
object, persuade them to give it a try -- I used to run campaigns where a
couple of thousand nuyen was just enough payment for a day, while now it
pays for an entire run, but one of the players who always wanted (needed)
a lot of money commented that he likes it better this way now that he has
to actually save for stuff he used to buy without thinking twice about it
before.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can we scratch beneath this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:33:44 -0400
>with any firearms heavier than an SMG, equipment with ratings *or*
>availabilities higher than 6, and no attribute enhancing
>cyberware/powers (i.e. wired reflexes, muscle aug, etc.) with a rating
>higher than 1. This may sound somewhat draconian but the characters


I've known GMs who did the SMG limit. I would probably do the same but boy
talk about a fit the players would throw...and not to mention, a well-placed
sniper comes in handy for some of these runs for the sake of actually being
sneaky/professional about their work.

As for equipment actually my standard is a little lower. I don't allow
anything with a rating above 4. And that goes for equipment and cyberware.
(no big deal...not that much cyberware goes above R4...) I also don't
usually allow the various grades of cyberware, but that's more because of my
own lack of desire to look up the rules on that! LoL!
Message no. 19
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:37:08 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, [iso-8859-1] Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > I find that the basic rules laid out in SR3 (no
> equipment with a Rating or Availability higher than 6)
> serves pretty well.
>
> Err, actually...
>
> According to SR3, no equipment with a Rating higher
> than 6, or Availability higher than *8* is available
> at creation.

You are of course correct. I didn't have my SR3 with me, so I
couldn't doublecheck before posting.

> Uh, Marc, maybe this is just me, but I don't know that
> edge. The SRII Comp had the SOTA edge (which was just
> for cyber and bioware, IIRC), but that's gone from the
> SR3 Comp. Is there a "Cutting Edge Gear" edge in the
> SR3 Comp that I've been missing all this time? If so,
> oops. :)

Maybe I'm still stuck in an SR2 frame of mind, but I thought there
was an edge in SR3Comp that did basically the same thing. Again, without
a text in front of me to verify, I'm just speculating.

Marc
Message no. 20
From: E. Gorey sp00kyt00th@*******.com
Subject: Starting Limits
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:41:22 EDT
From: "James Mick" <sinabian@********.net>

>Does this seem reasonable/unreasonable to anybody else? What do you
> >usually use for policy? Also, what's a good going ¥ rate for
> >shadowruns? I've been thinking 500 for the easy runs, 1000 for the >more
>difficult, and closer to 2500 per character for the highest
> >difficulties...(full assault on a major corp for instance) Only >problem
>I have with this is that my runners are spoiled. They're used >to getting
>5000 per char for every measly penny-ante run... Should I >just stick with
>this? Only problem is they gain power way too fast >that way... (I think
>I've got a good enough feel for the karma >system. Some would probably
>disagree but I usually give away a base >of 5 karma for a job well
>done...characterwise at least. More points >for playing exceptionally well,
>professionalism, proficiency, etc...)

Our games (and scale) seem a bit different. Generally, 5 grand a piece is
the least a potential employer can expect to pay for a run. Considering
that you're "on the clock" from the time you accept to the time of
completion, which is ususally under some sort of quick deadline, they aren't
paying you a 9-5 salary. Or, at least shouldn't be.
It definitely is based on difficulty and risk, but also time allotment, and
desperation on the part of the employer. (what is too high a demand before
they walk out the door)?
More than likely Johnson is going through your fixer, who is probably the
only fixer he/she knows (most Johnson's are middle management, the really
big boys will likely just send the Black Ops team to do their dirty
laundry), so they won't be quick to blow you off and run back to the fixer.
Conversely, you don't wanna piss off your fixer who DOES look bad if her
suggested employees are crass.
Also, you don't have to negotiate soley for cash. We tend to go through
10-30k in expenses alone (specialized gear, contacts, vehicle upkeep, visits
to the streetdoc) and if the pay seems unreasonably low, we negotiate for an
expenses account. Sometimes they go for this more easily because it's not a
definite payment (maybe they won't buy anything) or they have no idea just
how expensive it is in the shadows.
When you hire runners, you're paying someone you don't know to handle
something illegal (or at least illegally). More than likely they've got a
mage, ultra rare commodity, and top of the line skills and gear. They're
expected to handle situations taht won't even occur to a Johnson (and there
is no such thing as an easy run, at least, there shouldn't be). If they get
caught, they are screwed beyond belief. Not only are they likely sinless,
and therefore without rights, but they are walking federal offenses.
Certainly worth more than a grand or two, IMHO.


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 21
From: Matt Waltner-Toews cheshire_penguin@*******.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:10:57 GMT
> >500Y!!!
> >Only if you expect them to starve :)> 500¥ is the kind of ammount you
> >should pay a contact for information. I pay runners an average of 5000¥
>per
> >run, do bear in mind that it costs about 1000¥ a month to keep a roof
>over
> >your head and shoes on your feet.
>
>
>
>LoL! Well my thinking was along the lines of it wouldn't be the only run
>that month. So 2 penny-ante runs like that in one month and they'd be taken
>care of. But I don't think I'll be able to drag them away from the
>luxurious
>and exorbitant 5k¥ a run anyway... I guess it would have to depend on the
>run itself...

Hehe... My runners have made upwards of 50,000¥ per person on a run, but
those ones are pretty lethal (literally). One of them, for instance,
involved getting rid of a force 10 toxic city spirit on it's home ground
(background count 5). I think they lost about half the team on that one,
and one of them had to pick up a couple of phobias... Ah, the memories. :)


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 22
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:05:31 GMT
>From: "Augustus" <shadowrun@********.net>
>In SR1 and 2 they had more info on the karma system. Seems there is a
>whole
>paragraph missing in SR3 in that section.

Um, page 244.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 23
From: Aaron L. Bodoh-Creed abodoh@***.umd.edu
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:12:17 -0400 (EDT)
I have begun a campaign where the PCs play metropolitan police officers
(homicide detectives, actually) in the pre-containment zone Chicago. I
realize the role is non-canon, but I wanted to have a low power
"little-guy-versus-the-world" kind of game. I limited them to
availability 2 (maybe 3, but I had to check) since I assumed there
underworld connections wouldn't be so hot to deal to the Cops. A few
players complained, but most of them are new to Sr so don't realize what
they're missing out on. Eventually they'll start to see some of the
higher power stuff, but for now their going to be like magical items in
AD&D. Hard to come by and truly treasured when they are found.

-Aaron
Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > Err, actually...
> >
> > According to SR3, no equipment with a Rating
higher than 6, or Availability higher than *8* is
available at creation.
>
> You are of course correct. I didn't have my SR3
with me, so I couldn't doublecheck before posting.

Of course.

;)

Just one of the many SR facts I have indelibly graven
on my memory (whether it's correct, or not). :)

> > Uh, Marc, maybe this is just me, but I don't know
that edge. The SRII Comp had the SOTA edge (which was
just for cyber and bioware, IIRC), but that's gone
from the SR3 Comp. Is there a "Cutting Edge Gear" edge
in the SR3 Comp that I've been missing all this time?
If so, oops. :)
>
> Maybe I'm still stuck in an SR2 frame of mind, but
I thought there was an edge in SR3Comp that did
basically the same thing. Again, without a text in
front of me to verify, I'm just speculating.
> Marc

Well, I couldn't find it when I had a look, but it's
possible it was added in a later printing, or as an errata.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:19:21 +0200
According to Aaron L. Bodoh-Creed, at 14:12 on 19 Jul 00, the word on the
street was...

> I have begun a campaign where the PCs play metropolitan police officers
> (homicide detectives, actually) in the pre-containment zone Chicago. I
> realize the role is non-canon, but I wanted to have a low power
> "little-guy-versus-the-world" kind of game. I limited them to
> availability 2 (maybe 3, but I had to check)

That seems very low... 2 puts most armor and pistols out of their range; 3
doesn't, but it still feels like a very limited amount of stuff you gave
them access to.

> since I assumed there underworld connections wouldn't be so hot to deal
> to the Cops.

IMO, Availability doesn't only represent the underworld -- it's the
general difficulty involved in finding something, whether on the black
market or in stores.

> A few players complained, but most of them are new to Sr so don't
> realize what they're missing out on. Eventually they'll start to see
> some of the higher power stuff, but for now their going to be like
> magical items in AD&D. Hard to come by and truly treasured when they
> are found.

I thought magical items in AD&D were widely available...? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can we scratch beneath this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Douglas Browne dejaffa@*********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:00:52 -0400
> IMO, Availability doesn't only represent the underworld -- it's the
> general difficulty involved in finding something, whether on the black
> market or in stores.

Or in the police armory, or via the various cops/ex-cops who are gun
collectors, or anywhere else they might be able to find it. If the cops are
dirty and well-organized, that might even include the evidence locker.

Tee-Hee
Message no. 27
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:26:42 -0400
On 20 Jul 2000, at 11:19, Gurth wrote:

> > A few players complained, but most of them are new to Sr so don't
> > realize what they're missing out on. Eventually they'll start to see
> > some of the higher power stuff, but for now their going to be like
> > magical items in AD&D. Hard to come by and truly treasured when they
> > are found.
>
> I thought magical items in AD&D were widely available...? :)

You and me both. Apparently, it depends on the GM. I had one GM
who started every level 1 character with a random magical item from the
tables, and another who said we'd be lucky ever to see a single one in
our entire lives.

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

No electrons were harmed in the making of this e-mail.
Message no. 28
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:57:08 -0400
> I have begun a campaign where the PCs play metropolitan police officers
> (homicide detectives, actually) in the pre-containment zone Chicago. I
> realize the role is non-canon, but I wanted to have a low power
> "little-guy-versus-the-world" kind of game. I limited them to
> availability 2 (maybe 3, but I had to check)


One problem I see with this is that you've made most Lone Star gear
inaccessible to them. And one would think that the police would be allowed
to get their hands on the same stuff. (Of course I'm just saying this
because I'm especially partial to the Ruger Thunderbolt...::grinz::)
Message no. 29
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:00:05 +0200
James Mick wrote:
>
> > I have begun a campaign where the PCs play metropolitan police officers
> > (homicide detectives, actually) in the pre-containment zone Chicago. I
> > realize the role is non-canon, but I wanted to have a low power
> > "little-guy-versus-the-world" kind of game. I limited them to
> > availability 2 (maybe 3, but I had to check)
>
> One problem I see with this is that you've made most Lone Star gear
> inaccessible to them. And one would think that the police would be allowed

Not a problem at all... They have their own personal gear, and then there's the cool stuff
that's issued to them, but that still belongs to the state/city/company and that they have
to pay for if they break it
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com

"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
Message no. 30
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:43:02 -0400
>Not a problem at all... They have their own personal gear, and then there's
the cool stuff that's issued to them, but that still belongs to the
state/city/company and that they have to pay for if they break it
>--
>Allen Versfeld
>moe@*******.com
>
>"As a computer, I find your faith in technology to be quite amusing"
>


Pretty hoopy thinking there Earthman! I probably wouldn't have thought of
that but you raise a very good point...
Message no. 31
From: Aaron L. Bodoh-Creed abodoh@***.umd.edu
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:00:36 -0400
Hi,
You're right, they don't get access to the Lone Star stuff. However, these
characters are detectives, not beat cops or SWAT members, so the hardware
shouldn't be necessary most of the time. They can snatch an assault rifle
or other goodie if needed, but they have to justify it. No carrying the
machine gun around in the back of the car like most SR games I've played.
Th availability numbers in SR are all messed up. At least in second
edition, a crossbow (which is legal) is availability 4 or 5 while an Ak-97
is availability 3, the same as most of the pistols. Go figure. Used a play
it by ear method - anything clearly legal was available, no matter what the
availability.
And as for magic items, Dark Sun is my favorite AD&D world, and it is
notoriously magic item free. I'm not a huge fan of handing out magic items
to PCs. It makes'em uppity.

-Aaron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of James Mick
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 9:57 AM
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: starting limits?
>
>
> > I have begun a campaign where the PCs play metropolitan police officers
> > (homicide detectives, actually) in the pre-containment zone Chicago. I
> > realize the role is non-canon, but I wanted to have a low power
> > "little-guy-versus-the-world" kind of game. I limited them to
> > availability 2 (maybe 3, but I had to check)
>
>
> One problem I see with this is that you've made most Lone Star gear
> inaccessible to them. And one would think that the police would be allowed
> to get their hands on the same stuff. (Of course I'm just saying this
> because I'm especially partial to the Ruger Thunderbolt...::grinz::)
>
>
>
Message no. 32
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:29:28 +0200
According to Aaron L. Bodoh-Creed, at 19:00 on 21 Jul 00, the word on the
street was...

> Th availability numbers in SR are all messed up. At least in second
> edition, a crossbow (which is legal) is availability 4 or 5 while an Ak-97
> is availability 3, the same as most of the pistols. Go figure. Used a play
> it by ear method - anything clearly legal was available, no matter what the
> availability.

Sorry to say it, but IMHO that is just as messed up. There are plenty of
things that are legally available that just aren't easy to get hold of.
The crossbows vs. AK-97 example, for instance, is easy enough to explain:
crossbows are sold for sports shooting, which is a limited market, so you
have to find a specialized store that carries them. AK-97s are one of the
most popular weapons on the street, so to get hold of one all you need to
do is find the local gang and get them to sell one to you. Gangs are more
common than stores selling crossbows, so AK-97s are easier to get hold of,
even if they are illegal.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can we scratch beneath this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: Curtis Askren vykar@*****.com
Subject: starting limits?
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:50:42 -0700 (PDT)
Well, what I've done for this campain that I've
started is this...

I've let the players ignore the availability and
street index for all their gear. cyberware is limited
to alpha grade. And I've told them they can get
whatever cyberware they want, as long as they get it
cleared by me. Then I tell them the price.

well, hell, here was everything:
SR2style:
"As i said before, all cyberware is half price,
certain items for free, but you MUST have them cleared
by me. I want the cost, essence loss, hell even the
color. anything in gaudy pink is a no-no.
Edges and flaws: get them cleared by me basically.
What I meant by that was the ones on your site are
alright to use. There really isn't toooo much of a
cause for them, but if they TIE INTO YOUR BACKROUND
they'll be fine.

Seattle, 2055.

Rules on Cyberware: all cyberware is half price or
less, availability and index are ignored. basics such
as Smartlink are free, but ask me first. Get a list of
cyberware and your skills, submit them to me, Ill
give the price.

oh, and your runners have been in the Biz for a while,
and have quite a reputation. you get one level 2
contact, two level 1 contacts. you've been used to
dealing with big companies (Renraku, Ares, that sort
of thing. not subsidiaries, but close to the top of
the corps) So try to flesh out the backgrounds a bit,
and do the living and gear as you would think your
char would have at this level of expertise.

(on skills)
(Going by SR2 for now) fluent in your native tongue,
Language is equal to your int, knowledge is 1.5 x int.
both are free.
Also, essence loss is very negotionable, it will be
cleared when I see the list of cyber you want. But max
loss is 4.6 for all the 'ware. If you have cyber and
bio, split it to 2.3 total in both.
Cars.... Just tell me what you want, it's probably
alright. No Citymasters though ;-). Customizations are
cool, as long as they're (you know the drill) okayed
by me.



Oh, and anything along the lines of PAC's and other
munchinly drek is out. Unless you can follow rule
number two

But like I said.... If you want big drek... there are
two rules...

1: You give me a damn good reason how you got it,
where you got it, where you keep it, how you use it,
how you transport it. Hell, who it sleeps with. (Dont
ask)

And Number Two: Don't roll 1's."

There you go. Now, the cyber crap and avail rules are
not what I'd normally use. I have a very fiendish plan
(Evil GM stuff), so they wil be needing all the help
they can get. And about 10 minutes into the run their
cyber will be downright useless.


====Dr.Vyk,
UV scientist and 100th member of the Order

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about starting limits?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.