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Message no. 1
From: Joseph Casey CS91 <jcasey@**.STRATH.AC.UK>
Subject: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:53:54 +0000
The rules in SRII for generating new player characters seem to me to
give new players too much, too fast. I started my players out as gang
members (with attributes about 3 or 4 and some fighting skills and some
street etiquette and knowledge) so they would have a defined background
which I could fill them in on and then I hope to let them choose their
paths and build their characters from there using karma and money earned
from actual runs instead of the apparently massive amount of resources
they would have if the generated their characters by the rules.

The reason for doing this is that other-wise my players would
possibly have to learn all of the rules before they could begin to play.
This way they start off using a comfortable subset of the rules and
earn their characters better skills and gear through roleplaying.

Does anyone else have any ideas on starting out new characters,
as I don't want to be too generous at this point and start dishing out
lots of fancy stuff to my gang member players.
My idea is , once we have finished this introductory scenario,
to let the players age their characters a few years and let them pick
up some new skills and gear before they start their first real run.

Anyone see any problems with doing this?
Cheers,
Jo.
Message no. 2
From: Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:51:14 EST
>The rules in SRII for generating new player characters seem to me to
>give new players too much, too fast. I started my players out as gang
>members (with attributes about 3 or 4 and some fighting skills and
>some...
[text removed}

>Anyone see any problems with doing this?

Jo-

All of the above is allowed if you want to play that way. Start your
characters any way you like- its your game. Its also nice to build up
their background as you describe.

OTOH, I look at player characters as people choosing to become a part of
the Shadows versus being thrown into them. Characters forced to run would
obviously not be as combat laden as most characters or archetypes. The
priority system lets things get much more interesting more quickly with
experienced characters. Of course, its all a matter of the balance of
power within the game.

As long as your players and you enjoy it, don't worry about being right or
wrong! ;)


Gregory Reade
Message no. 3
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:06:51 -0600
I agree its real easy to create all powerful characters right off the bat, especially if
theacters take tech priority A. You might want to disallow the use of tech A characters
Or you might want to disallow anything out of the shadowtech and fields of fire
sourcebook.
Another possibility is to have your characters roll for availability for their cyberware
and more esoteric equipment(Heavy armor, Miniguns, Missile Launchers...)
I don't particulary agree with changing the rules for character generation though because
they seem fairly balanced as it is. If your characters insist apon Hyperpowerd characters
You can always use the old cyberpunk rule and kill em off out of hand. I've done it many
times
But your characters are already made, so I guess you shouldnb't have to change them.
Remeber that not all runners are ex gangers. Some worked for corps, secret ops, the
military
How do deckers start out in gangs? Or riggers? or Mages? You might have really restricted
your characters with these rules...
Sean
Message no. 4
From: Stephen Denison <SSD7265@*****.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:20:22 -0500
It depends how you want to do it Jo. Just make sure, that if you have
super characters, that the players flush out their backgrounds to help
explain why the characters have what they have. For example, a character
that I once played (and still have), I gave A in money. I then flushed out
his background....A briliant programmer/decker for a corp, he left after
his wife and daughter were killed in the Night of Rage. Vowing vengence
on the Awakened for the death of his wife and daughter, he left the corp
and took to the shadows. Interestingly, I have a friend who won't play
SRII, because he doesn't think that the character generation process gives
him enough...oh well...to each his own.
Caesar
Message no. 5
From: Bona na Croin <MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:33:37 -0500
There's an old issue of White Wolf magazin that has a set of lower-powered
archetype creation rules. I can dig up the details for you if you like. It
predates SRII though, so you'd have to do some updating.

Ffelann
Message no. 6
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.NCR.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:17:00 PST
----------
From: SHADOWRN
To: HEARN.nic.SURFnet.nl!SHADOWRN (Multiple recipients of list SHADOWRN)
Subject: Starting out characters
Date: Tuesday, February 21, 1995 3:53PM

The rules in SRII for generating new player characters seem to me to
give new players too much, too fast. I started my players out as
gang
members (with attributes about 3 or 4 and some fighting skills and
some
street etiquette and knowledge) so they would have a defined
background
which I could fill them in on and then I hope to let them choose
their
paths and build their characters from there using karma and money
earned
from actual runs instead of the apparently massive amount of
resources
they would have if the generated their characters by the rules.

I think it has to do with the way the gm sets up his/her campaign. The power
level is an important factor in this question.

The reason for doing this is that other-wise my players would
possibly have to learn all of the rules before they could begin to
play.
This way they start off using a comfortable subset of the rules and
earn their characters better skills and gear through roleplaying.

That can be controlled on how the gm plays the game. You could play it like
Paranoia and have it where the players know any of the rules and you control
everything or you could do it to the other extreme.


Does anyone else have any ideas on starting out new
characters,
as I don't want to be too generous at this point and start dishing
out
lots of fancy stuff to my gang member players.
My idea is , once we have finished this introductory
scenario,
to let the players age their characters a few years and let them
pick
up some new skills and gear before they start their first real run.

Anyone see any problems with doing this?
Cheers,
Jo.
I find that the starting rules are ok for the power level of my campaign
(which isn't any different the that suggested in the book, I have not modify
the rules for the game yet, but that is because I just started gming SR). I
find that the premade adventures are at this level too.
Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:25:25 +0930
>
> The reason for doing this is that other-wise my players would
> possibly have to learn all of the rules before they could begin to play.
> This way they start off using a comfortable subset of the rules and
> earn their characters better skills and gear through roleplaying.
>

Well, I make a little booklet for my players walking through character
generation, describing what the skills and stats are actually used for, and
a (very) brief example of the combat process. I also offer to run them
through a quick combat.

This tends to solve that problem.

> Does anyone else have any ideas on starting out new characters,
> as I don't want to be too generous at this point and start dishing out
> lots of fancy stuff to my gang member players.
> My idea is , once we have finished this introductory scenario,
> to let the players age their characters a few years and let them pick
> up some new skills and gear before they start their first real run.
>
> Anyone see any problems with doing this?

It could work, but the problem here is that you skip a large chunk of the
player's lives. I don't like doing this, for a variety of reasons. I can
see what you are getting at, but look it this way:

Skills don't have to be clumped into a small collection of "brilliant"
skills (almost always combat, as well). Tell your players to spread them
out. Instead of having 6 as the maximum level for a skill, make it 4. This
way they are competent, but not overwhelming. Futhermore, they will
probably have a broader range of skills (something I have difficutly
convincing my players to develop, if they don't start with it and see it's
usefullness).

Resorces isn't just cash, ya know. Joining that gang just set them back,
what, 50K nuyen? Add, say, a dozen or so contacts, and some light gear, and
it just seems to vanish. (I could show you a character like this I made,
but I'd need Gurth's permission... what do you say, Gurth?). Essentially,
Resources are your entire life. And high resources (well, maybe not the one
million level) should not be a problem for most characters.

Stats are worth having... :)

The biggest problem here is magic. I like to play mages as if they are just
starting in their career, so I like them to have low Force Points to spend.
The trouble here is that this means they also have little in the way of
cash. What you might consider doing is evening out the Resources chart for
mages, providing fewer resources but more Force at the low end (still a
reasonable number of resources, though, like 20K. Enough to buy a few
contacts besides the base 2), while having more cash (less than a mill) and
little Force at the high end. Or something like that. It's a balancing act,
really, if you want a low level magical presence.

(I really like doing this kind of thing with agreeable players. It helps to
simulate the "Sam Verner" scenario: a mage who only recently discovered his
powers, but who isn't flat broke with a measly 100 nuyen)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:13:59 +0100
>Resorces isn't just cash, ya know. Joining that gang just set them back,
>what, 50K nuyen? Add, say, a dozen or so contacts, and some light gear, and
>it just seems to vanish. (I could show you a character like this I made,
>but I'd need Gurth's permission... what do you say, Gurth?).

You mean the one who wanted "a follower" before you realized it meant "a
group of followers?" OK by me if you want to post him here -- and to the
others (you know who you are), close your eyes :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I want you to remember...
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 9
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:36:18 +0100
> Skills don't have to be clumped into a small collection of "brilliant"
> skills (almost always combat, as well). Tell your players to spread them
> out. Instead of having 6 as the maximum level for a skill, make it 4. This
> way they are competent, but not overwhelming. Futhermore, they will
> probably have a broader range of skills (something I have difficutly
> convincing my players to develop, if they don't start with it and see it's
> usefullness).

I see the logic in this, but I personally dont agree with it. After all
runners are supposed to be the crem de la crem (sp?), if they dont have that
6 in firearms who does? What I think is missing here is something I picked up
in rec.games.frp.advocacy, its called social competence (I think its from
GURPS - dunno never played it) An all around skill for things like chess
playing, singing, baseball, amateur programming, foo, bar. Things that
normal people have and would make the characters a lot more believable.
The problem is that if you charge them as normal skills nobody will
waist precious skill points to get them.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 20:13:49 +0930
Once upon a time, Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> I see the logic in this, but I personally dont agree with it. After all
> runners are supposed to be the crem de la crem (sp?), if they dont have that
> 6 in firearms who does? What I think is missing here is something I picked up
> in rec.games.frp.advocacy, its called social competence (I think its from
> GURPS - dunno never played it) An all around skill for things like chess
> playing, singing, baseball, amateur programming, foo, bar. Things that
> normal people have and would make the characters a lot more believable.
> The problem is that if you charge them as normal skills nobody will
> waist precious skill points to get them.
>

Runners are the crem de la whatsit, but even the top-notch runners start
their careers somewhere, ya know. And no matter how talented, you always
start off as a newbie.

(Besides, the really good runners have skills up around nine to twelve)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 11
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:54:46 +0100
> Runners are the crem de la whatsit, but even the top-notch runners start
> their careers somewhere, ya know. And no matter how talented, you always
> start off as a newbie.
>
> (Besides, the really good runners have skills up around nine to twelve)

Well I dont agree with that **&* philosophy (that characters have to start
as idiot aprentices) and that is one of the reason I like SR so much.
For me starting characters are already top-noch operators, thats why they
are called shadowrunners and not gangsters, gangers, criminals, whatever.
As for the skills, I think that a skill of 12 is not feasible at least not
for the greatest part of even the runner population and certainly not at a
skill like firearms (concidering the high risk trade in which this skills is
used :) This is all IMHO anyway, but as I see it a skill of 8 maybe 9 is the
max even the elite could hope for. Anything more than that is unique; I'd say
that a 12 in physics would put you up there with einstein :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 12
From: Frank Steinhauer <steinhau@**********.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:37:02 +0100
> 6 in firearms who does? What I think is missing here is something I picked up
> in rec.games.frp.advocacy, its called social competence (I think its from
> GURPS - dunno never played it) An all around skill for things like chess
> playing, singing, baseball, amateur programming, foo, bar. Things that
> normal people have and would make the characters a lot more believable.
> The problem is that if you charge them as normal skills nobody will
> waist precious skill points to get them.
>
> GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
> L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
> !G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?

I add stuff like that to my characters without using skill points, to give them
a more complete backround. I think that's necessary to make a complete character
, although I don't use these skills (yet). I add these skills without using
skill points, because I don't use them as normal skills. They're just a part of
my character, what he does in his spare time.


--

Frank Steinhauer -----> steinhau@***.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de -----> 42
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GCS H s !g p? au- a25 v C+(++) UH>+ P? L 3 E->+ N my personal geek-code
K-0 W--- V-- -po+ t+(++)@ !5 !j R+ G+ tv !b B?
b++(+++) e+>+++ u**(++@) h+(!) f+ r- n(!n) y? using Geek2.1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:57:59 +0000
When generating characters for games I run, I get the characters
to check with me before getting the following:

alpha ware (generally I say yes)
beta ware (generally I say no)
bioware (usually I restrict them to a single piece, if aany)
heavy weapons (dpends on the character, Barrets are out)

then I'll check the character and get rid of anything I don't like

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Administrator | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
Message no. 14
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:01:21 +0100
>I add stuff like that to my characters without using skill points, to give them
>a more complete backround.I think that's necessary to make a complete character
> , although I don't use these skills (yet). I add these skills without using
>skill points, because I don't use them as normal skills. They're just a part of
> my character, what he does in his spare time.

Thats a solution, the problem is however that if you dont use the skills
then you might aswell just say "Oh yeah and my character is this and he likes
that, he is actually a well adapted person." Why I meant was give them skills
normall people use every day. For example lets take the skill "operating
computers/electronic devices" - what would you do if a player suddenly
decides that his character wants to check out the local BBS for news on
a recent incident, do you ask him to roll electronics or decking ?????
On the other hand, IMHO you cant just assume that the char is in a position
to use the telecom to do even a simple task like that. I mean I have seen
enough people balk when asked to press "record" and "play" on a VCR to
know that even the simplest tasks can be imposible to some people.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 15
From: Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:42:00 GMT
I've just finished completing a character (God knows why, I don't even have
anyone to play with) and I gave him A priority for gear and force points (he's
a physical adept). However, I have written a full history as to how he got
where he is, how he managed to get so much gear, where he stores it, who guards
it for him (I purchased a gang, which I turned into a group of trainee mercs
with limited weapons and VERY limited ammo (they have to say Bang Bang a lot
when training) who he is trainig on behalf of the rebel forces on the Yucatan
Peninsula). I also said that he prefers to limit the amount of weaponry that
he carries to a max of two handguns, and one or two grenades. I purchased a
Barret for sniper jobs but I have also put into my history that he quite often
leaves such guns at the scene because they are far too difficult to hide after
the deed is done. I have linked all the contacts and his buddy to his time
in Mexico in the 6/66th Division (Mercenary) and described actions that they
took part in. Thus, when a future GM (in my wet dreams), says that he has way
too much gear, I have good explanations for why he has it, and most of the gear
that he has can only be used on Merc ops anyway (running the shadows is OK
but fighting for a cause that he belives in is all that matters.).
As a matter of interest I am writing up details of the 6th Mech Inf (Merc)
and the 66th Armoured (Merc) and if anyone is interested I'll post details
when it is finished (I have to get a dissertation out of the way first).TTFN
Message no. 16
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:40:59 -0600
Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.NCR.COM>> states:
snip:
>
> Does anyone else have any ideas on starting out new
>characters,
> as I don't want to be too generous at this point and start dishing
>out
> lots of fancy stuff to my gang member players.
> Cheers,
> Jo.

We add 5 points for totally useless skills. (comic book collecting, chess,
reading science-fiction, cooking, beer can collecting, television, etc.)
This gives new characters something in their background. An example would
be a mage who has a secret fantasy to be like some of the comic heros he
reads about. A romantic Street Sam who enjoys Itallian cooking, and picking
the perfect wine, A troll who will do anything for that last card for his
urban Brawl card collection.
You can't pick a skill that aids in survival, you have to buy those. Also
latter in the game a lot of players will even opt to spend karma to increase
their useless skills. Or to add new ones, (harmonica playing, being a
really good cook, fishing, Science-Fiction Cons, Japaneese gardening,
tea-ceremony, knowledge of business journals, candle-making, herbs, etc.)
Kay
a.k.a. Kid Kaos
Message no. 17
From: robert frazine <shade@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 11:50:54 -0500
Okay. Had a fucking enough...Listen up everyone who has the dumb idea that
you need "five extra points for totally useless skills" First, to take a
skill in singing, poker, polishing shoes, whatever...if you really want
to waste time and skill points on these things(exception singing if pro.
singer, poker if pro. gambler) do it as a special skill...okay...enough
of dumbass players...Dumbass GM's listen up...people don't need a skill
for everything they do...Something AD&D forgot(if one doesn't have a swimming
proficiency, one can't swim) the reason Shadowrun doesn't have a skill
for "social competence" is that you have attributes and everything comes
from that...let's take poker...matched charisma tests...if cheating target
number is opponents intelligence...or you could do it as a specialization
of negotiation....if you don't have a set skill role play it...the reason
you don't need these useless skills is because you should be roleplaying
it...
Oh and yes I know I'm gonna get flamed...but I can only take so much
idiocy a day...
Mirage...
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 18:01:56 +0100
> Okay. Had a fucking enough...Listen up everyone who has the dumb idea that
> you need "five extra points for totally useless skills" First, to take a
> skill in singing, poker, polishing shoes, whatever...if you really want
> to waste time and skill points on these things(exception singing if pro.
> singer, poker if pro. gambler) do it as a special skill...okay...enough
> of dumbass players...Dumbass GM's listen up...people don't need a skill

I do not want to flame you dude, but I find your comments very offensive.
You do not have the right to call anyone a "Dumbass", especially considering
your own apparent level of education. Anyway if our interest in roleplaying
bores you, how about joining some other mailinglist - maybe one about $$&$
since you seem to be so familiar with its rules.

> for everything they do...Something AD&D forgot(if one doesn't have a swimming
> proficiency, one can't swim) the reason Shadowrun doesn't have a skill
> for "social competence" is that you have attributes and everything comes
> from that...let's take poker...matched charisma tests...if cheating target
> number is opponents intelligence...or you could do it as a specialization
> of negotiation....if you don't have a set skill role play it...the reason
> you don't need these useless skills is because you should be roleplaying
> it...

Well thank you for your enlightening comments, we wouldnt know what to
do without you sir.

> Oh and yes I know I'm gonna get flamed...but I can only take so much
> idiocy a day...

How about trying not to look in the mirror when you get up in the morning,
this would considerably reduce the load, dont you think so ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 19
From: MINION <goehrigd@****.CANISIUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:08:00 -0500
On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, robert frazine wrote:

Flame Thrower- engaged...

> Okay. Had a fucking enough...

Hey lets at least keep dicussion civil here. Colorful language should be
kept in a SR context chummer.

>Listen up everyone who has the dumb idea that
> you need "five extra points for totally useless skills"

No skill is useless... I had a skill in boring oratory and dulled the
wits out of a couple of punks with a great speach about the economic
values of flossing. I say give me 20 more points not just 5.

>
> First, to take a
> skill in singing, poker, polishing shoes, whatever...if you really want
> to waste time and skill points on these things

Skill points are only wasted if you never use them. i have seen players
survive longer and make more nuyen with their cooking and language skills
than they made with a Firearms of 8 and an HK227.

(exception singing if pro.
> singer, poker if pro. gambler) do it as a special skill...

Unfortunately, if you use the skill web your argument won't work..
In SRI and SRII attribute may only supplement skills with major penalties.

>okay...enough
> of dumbass players...Dumbass GM's listen up...

tisk tisk tisk such language and such an offensive posture...
assume the position.....thwack

>people don't need a skill
> for everything they do..

Not every thing only those things that you have to be tought to do.
That is the point of a skill...it lets you do something that a
person without an education can not do...I might not be able to read
Chinese.. but I can read English.. why because I have a skill.
With some help and a lot of context I might (ery very slim chance be able
to get the rough idea of what the chinese says without a skill.

As to poker, there is a difference from playing the game and being
skilled at the game. From what I have seen of say my grandfather
some people are skilled and others like myself are not.

Ps. You must have a skill at barking

>.Something AD&D forgot(if one doesn't have a swimming
> proficiency, one can't swim)

Is SR ADND? any ways this is not totally true since you can swim
only that it is more likely you will drown.. Ps. One must learn to swim
to be able to do it. I say that makes it a skill.

> the reason Shadowrun doesn't have a skill
> for "social competence" is that you have attributes and everything comes
> from that...let's take poker...matched charisma tests...if cheating target
> number is opponents intelligence...or you could do it as a specialization
> of negotiation....if you don't have a set skill role play it...the reason
> you don't need these useless skills is because you should be roleplaying
> it...

Then what is the point of any skill? Personnaly I force my players to
roleplay all situations and often act out scenes. The thing is though
they as players are better at roleplaying or doing things than their
characters, (one of my friends can't cook but all his characters are the
party cheifs.) In a recent StarTrek game the players asked if they could
make a skill role instead of roleplaying because they didn't know the answer
to a question that I the GM knew... Skills are there to determine
these situations.. An attribute would not have worked in this situation
because I only knew this after taking a course in particle
physics..(which counts as a skill since I bet not everyone could give you
the answer)

> Oh and yes I know I'm gonna get flamed...

I am glad to see that you realize that force is met with force

>but I can only take so much
> idiocy a day...

As some one I knew once said "What's an I O dite?"
Why did you add to the soucre of your own frustration?

_____________________________________________________
| "Deaf And Blind And Dumb And Born To Follow, |
| What You Need Is Someone Strong to Guide You." |
|_____________________________________________________|
|Goehrigd@********.bitnet | Goehrigd@****.canisius.edu|
|_____________________________________________________|
Message no. 20
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:56:09 -0600
On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Kay and Pete Hanson wrote:
(Does one of you work the right side of the keyboard and the other the left?)
>
> We add 5 points for totally useless skills. (comic book collecting, chess,
> reading science-fiction, cooking, beer can collecting, television, etc.)

We have a similar system where you get half as many points as you got for
skills in the priority system to use on 'shit' skills (excuse me).
The most usefull things you can use them on are probably languages
and city speak skills beyond your native tongue and native city dialect.
Noone has really abused the extra languages, since they've always fit
in with the character's background.

My late, lamented street-sam Leather had Portugeuse and Rio de Janero
City speak (as a native of Rio), a little spanish (Merc in Aztlan),
Japanese and San Francisco city speak (working for Shiawase in SF; that
was how he got the bioware!) and english and seattle cityspeak (his
new home). This was with 40 skill points from priorities.
>
<<Snip>>
> their useless skills. Or to add new ones, (harmonica playing, being a
> really good cook, fishing, Science-Fiction Cons, Japaneese gardening,
> tea-ceremony, knowledge of business journals, candle-making, herbs, etc.)
>
Let's see, we've had: rope use, paper airplane making, aerobics instruction,
model building, pool, hair styling, bath tub chemistry, oral sex (sorry!),
heraldry, poetry, and gun trivia : "I see you've got a Heckler and Koch
TWO hundred and twentyseven dash steve outfitted with Ares Macrotechnology
Smartlink and improved gasvent recoil reduction system..."


To get back to the topic of starting characters: no problem. Like others
have said, it depends on how you want to run a game. For low level
characters, certainly no alpha or beta ware. Forget Shadowtech and
most of Fields of Fire, although some of the guns in FoF are _exactly_
what starting characters might use.

As far as money, the 1M nuyen slot is really for riggers and deckers.
If your starting PCs don't need either of these, or you don't want them,
don't let you PCs waste their time building one without all the money.
1M nuyen is also good for the wired III folks, but without bioware you
can't fit much else!

And I also echo previous comments: explain it with a background!
The aforementioned Leather had a fairly precise history explaining his
skills, shit skills, cyberware and bioware.

Whew. I need a drink of water.
Tim Serpas, BS Physics
wretch@**.com
Message no. 21
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:15:12 -0600
Oral Sex as a skill? Must be a good money maker for those Rockers

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I am Pentium of Borg
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> you will be approximated
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:01:06 +0100
>For example lets take the skill "operating
>computers/electronic devices" - what would you do if a player suddenly
>decides that his character wants to check out the local BBS for news on
>a recent incident, do you ask him to roll electronics or decking ?????
>On the other hand, IMHO you cant just assume that the char is in a position
>to use the telecom to do even a simple task like that. I mean I have seen
>enough people balk when asked to press "record" and "play" on a
VCR to
>know that even the simplest tasks can be imposible to some people.

I guess you mean a situation where the player (playing, for instance, a
troll physad :) says to the GM: "What's at this and that address? I want to
find some information about it."
I, the GM, would say something like "How do you intend to find out?" To
which the reply would be like "I suppose I could find it on my telecom or
something -- you know, a map to the city or something."
That'd be enough for me. If the player can come up with some general
knowledge about how the game world works, I assume the character does, too.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:01:08 +0100
>people don't need a skill
>for everything they do...Something AD&D forgot(if one doesn't have a swimming
>proficiency, one can't swim)

No, the reasoning behind that one is that "proficiencies are broad." Of
course why this only applies for "non-weapon" and not to "weapon"
profs is
beyond me... but so are alignments, making skills optional, and giving NPCs
totally different stats than characters (or more accurately, much less stats
than characters).
That's one thing I like about SR: apart from the Karma pool, PCs and NPCs
are equal. Which is one thing that I still think is a bit weird -- NPCs
don't get Karma, but how then, technically, do they increase skill levels?
Yes, the GM can decide to up the skill from 4 to 5 whenever he wants to, but
still...

>the reason
>you don't need these useless skills is because you should be roleplaying
>it...

That poses problems for some things: you might know how to play poker, but I
absolutely don't. I only ever had maybe two attempts at it, and that was
trying out that computer game virtually everybody owns or has at least seen
(though many won't admit it :) The only reason we "won" was by renaming the
graphics files :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 24
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:57:28 +0100
On Thu, 23 Feb. Gurth wrote:

> >the reason
> >you don't need these useless skills is because you should be roleplaying
> >it...
>
> That poses problems for some things: you might know how to play poker, but I
> absolutely don't. I only ever had maybe two attempts at it, and that was
> trying out that computer game virtually everybody owns or has at least seen
> (though many won't admit it :) The only reason we "won" was by renaming the
> graphics files :)

This should be the old "strip-poker game" it's it Gurth? I can only
win poker games (or any cardgames involving money) when I'm drunk
(not joking here).
But I agree with you that it is silly to roleplay these things if
your players don't know them. Just rewrite them to some kind of dice
game everybody knows and give the player with the poker skill (or
cheat skill :) a bonus on his rolls.

Greetings,

Martin

****************************************************************
Martin Steffens |"There is no stress like distress"
E-mail: bdi05626@***.rhij.nl |
****************************************************************
Message no. 25
From: John Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:48:52 +0100
> I guess you mean a situation where the player (playing, for instance, a
> troll physad :) says to the GM: "What's at this and that address? I want to
> find some information about it."
> I, the GM, would say something like "How do you intend to find out?" To
> which the reply would be like "I suppose I could find it on my telecom or
> something -- you know, a map to the city or something."
> That'd be enough for me. If the player can come up with some general
> knowledge about how the game world works, I assume the character does, too.

My you are so perceptive :) Yes thats exactly what I mean, I know that
I would be in a position to do that, but I know a LOT of people that would
consider this to be a task worthy of the biggest heads in computer science :)
And while I can see the wisdom in using the players own knowledge in determining
things like that, I still think that its makes the game a bit 2-Dimensional as
not everyone has the experience to make such a decision.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:33:21 +0100
>And while I can see the wisdom in using the players own knowledge in
determining
>things like that, I still think that its makes the game a bit 2-Dimensional as
>not everyone has the experience to make such a decision.

I'm aware of that, too, which is why I intend to help new players along (ask
Karina :) until they develop a working knowledge of the game universe. IMHO
they don't have to read all the sourcebooks, as long as they're willing to
make some sort of effort to know the basics of what's in them...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 27
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 00:13:52 -0600
>Tim Serpas, BS Physics
>wretch@**.com
>On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Kay and Pete Hanson wrote:
>(Does one of you work the right side of the keyboard and the other the left?)

Nope just me Kay, husband insists that his name has to be there also...
sigh...I am the games addict.

>We have a similar system where you get half as many points as you got for
>skills in the priority system to use on 'shit' skills (excuse me).
>The most usefull things you can use them on are probably languages
>and city speak skills beyond your native tongue and native city dialect.

snip

>Whew. I need a drink of water.
>Tim Serpas, BS Physics
>wretch@**.com
>
Tim, thank you for the positive message!!! i am really hurt by being
flamed and put down by some of the others. Some memebers of this list seams
to enjoy hurting each other.
I enjoy most of the list. My computer is my connection to the rest of the
world, (I live out in the country, a long ways from town, and do not get to
actually game often anymore. :(
Please, guys, if you don't like what I say, just tell me I'm stupid. It
really bothers me to be continually flamed. Flaming hurts. (even reading
others getting flamed isn't good.) Sometimes my son sits and reads with me
(he's nine), quite frankly with the verbal abuse going on i can't let him
read this group, which is to bad since he adores SR.
Kay
...yes I know someone will flame me...sigh....
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 11:26:26 +0100
> Tim, thank you for the positive message!!! i am really hurt by being
>flamed and put down by some of the others. Some memebers of this list seams
>to enjoy hurting each other.

I don't think they do (well, some maybe :), but I can very well imagine
people getting sick and tired of getting the "read the FAQ" discussion every
two weeks at least, to name just one ever-returning thread.

>Sometimes my son [...] he adores SR.

Can't start early enough :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oooh! Smells like a job for ... TOILETMAN!!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 29
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting out characters
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 18:50:27 +0100
On Fri, 24 Feb (yeah I know I'm late, so flame me :), Kay Hanson
wrote:

> I am really hurt by being
> flamed and put down by some of the others. Some memebers of this list seams
> to enjoy hurting each other.
> Please, guys, if you don't like what I say, just tell me I'm stupid. It
> really bothers me to be continually flamed. Flaming hurts. (even reading
> others getting flamed isn't good.) Sometimes my son sits and reads with me
> (he's nine), quite frankly with the verbal abuse going on i can't let him
> read this group, which is to bad since he adores SR.

I agree with you that some of the members are a bit hot-headed, and
it seems to me that flaming is more regular now than it was a couple
of months ago. Maybe it's something in the weather, like winter-
depression. Hope this stops when spring arrives.
And anyone making comments about Kay's son playing shadowrun:
children know the difference between a game and reality, so think
again before you make comments (I could bore you to death with
studies about this) and cherish the new generation of shadowrunners :)

Just my thoughts,

Martin
****************************************************************
Martin Steffens |"There is no stress like distress"
E-mail: bdi05626@***.rhij.nl |
****************************************************************

Further Reading

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