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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:08:41 -0600
Bull wrote:
|
| At 10:56 AM 6/25/97 +0000, Drekhead wrote these timeless words:
|
| >And to further add to that old arguement, I found a passage in the
| >Companion in the section about gradual initiation, that states that
| >as an optional rule, GM's may not want to allow their players to use
| >force points for initiation, which implies to me that under normal
| >conditions, you can.
|
| All I can say (And I have said this to a plyer) is:
|
| "Not just no, but *HELL* no!" :]
|
| But that's just me...;]

I gotta agree with Bull. A starting character is a *starting*
character. And unless a player could come up with a very good story
(hey, it could happen) would not allow it.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink - The sound of a crescent role being stolen.
Message no. 2
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:11:12 -0500
At 12:08 PM 6/25/97 -0600, David wrote:
>Bull wrote:
>| At 10:56 AM 6/25/97 +0000, Drekhead wrote these timeless words:
>|
>| >And to further add to that old arguement, I found a passage in the
>| >Companion in the section about gradual initiation, that states that
>| >as an optional rule, GM's may not want to allow their players to use
>| >force points for initiation, which implies to me that under normal
>| >conditions, you can.
>|
>| All I can say (And I have said this to a plyer) is:
>|
>| "Not just no, but *HELL* no!" :]
>|
>| But that's just me...;]
>
>I gotta agree with Bull. A starting character is a *starting*
>character. And unless a player could come up with a very good story
>(hey, it could happen) would not allow it.

Not even the coolest story around would make me sway on that topic and may
the magekin that dares to try such a thing in any of my campaigns burn in
magical pimp fire for his travesty...

Agreed... *HELL* no! ;^D
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 3
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 09:28:13 +0000
On 26 Jun 97 at 0:11, TopCat wrote:

> Not even the coolest story around would make me sway on that topic and may
> the magekin that dares to try such a thing in any of my campaigns burn in
> magical pimp fire for his travesty...
>
> Agreed... *HELL* no! ;^D

Man, you guys are hard. I try and let the players play what they
want. After all, if they don't have fun, I don't have a group. I have
no munchkins in my group. They were burned at the stake. :) If they
want to start as an initiate, they would probably have a good reason
and a good story for it. I would allow it. But it hasn't even come up
yet, probably because by the time you initiate it leaves you with
about two or three spells. It is not a cost effective thing to do
at char gen.
Do you guys allow Force Points to bond foci or spell locks? If so,
how does that differ from initiation? Hell, you get a lot more out of
a focus at char gen that a level 0 initiation, IMHO.
--

=DREKHEAD========================================================
drekhead@***.net --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html ---
=================================================================
=================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
Message no. 4
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:29:50 -0400
At 09:28 AM 6/26/97 +0000, Drekhead wrote these timeless words:

>Man, you guys are hard. I try and let the players play what they
>want. After all, if they don't have fun, I don't have a group. I have
>no munchkins in my group. They were burned at the stake. :) If they
>want to start as an initiate, they would probably have a good reason
>and a good story for it. I would allow it. But it hasn't even come up
>yet, probably because by the time you initiate it leaves you with
>about two or three spells. It is not a cost effective thing to do
>at char gen.
>
Well, like I said, I like to try and run a low powered starting campign...
IMNSHO things are much more fun when you start as less than nothing and
work your way to fame, fortune, and glory...

>Do you guys allow Force Points to bond foci or spell locks? If so,
>how does that differ from initiation? Hell, you get a lot more out of
>a focus at char gen that a level 0 initiation, IMHO.
>
Nope, I agree, and think that Spell Locks for starting Characters are
really annoying and powerful...

Of course, they can be dealt with easily enough, but... It's easier not to
have to in the first place.

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 5
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:16:25 -0500
> Nope, I agree, and think that Spell Locks for starting Characters are
> really annoying and powerful...

> Of course, they can be dealt with easily enough, but... It's easier not to
> have to in the first place.

Personally I like making my players worry about all these details, as it gives
them something to do (be paranoid) besides blast things...

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:34:14 -0700
| >Man, you guys are hard. I try and let the players play what they
| >want. After all, if they don't have fun, I don't have a group. I have
| >no munchkins in my group. They were burned at the stake. :) If they
| >want to start as an initiate, they would probably have a good reason
| >and a good story for it. I would allow it. But it hasn't even come up
| >yet, probably because by the time you initiate it leaves you with
| >about two or three spells. It is not a cost effective thing to do
| >at char gen.
| >
| Well, like I said, I like to try and run a low powered starting
campign...
| IMNSHO things are much more fun when you start as less than nothing and
| work your way to fame, fortune, and glory...

I agree with Bull on this one. I personally find it alot more fun to start
from the dregs and work my way up...I can see where some players wouldn't
feel that way though so you have to tailor your game. OTOH I don't see
where letting a character initiate with force points is all that over
balancing. I mean by the time they pay for it their spell list is going to
suck.

| >Do you guys allow Force Points to bond foci or spell locks? If so,
| >how does that differ from initiation? Hell, you get a lot more out of
| >a focus at char gen that a level 0 initiation, IMHO.
| >
| Nope, I agree, and think that Spell Locks for starting Characters are
| really annoying and powerful...

We allow them, but rarely are they used ('course that could be because i'm
usually the one playing the mage) one spell lock isn't too powerful, and
again anything else cuts into your spell list too much.

| Of course, they can be dealt with easily enough, but... It's easier not
to
| have to in the first place.

Fine be that way then. :p~~~

<G>


-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 7
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 14:04:38 -0600
Quoth Caric:
>
> | >Man, you guys are hard. I try and let the players play what they
> | >want. After all, if they don't have fun, I don't have a group. I have
> | >no munchkins in my group. They were burned at the stake. :) If they
> | >want to start as an initiate, they would probably have a good reason
> | >and a good story for it. I would allow it. But it hasn't even come up
> | >yet, probably because by the time you initiate it leaves you with
> | >about two or three spells. It is not a cost effective thing to do
> | >at char gen.
> | >
> | Well, like I said, I like to try and run a low powered starting
> campign...
> | IMNSHO things are much more fun when you start as less than nothing and
> | work your way to fame, fortune, and glory...
>
> I agree with Bull on this one. I personally find it alot more fun to start
> from the dregs and work my way up...I can see where some players wouldn't
> feel that way though so you have to tailor your game. OTOH I don't see
> where letting a character initiate with force points is all that over
> balancing. I mean by the time they pay for it their spell list is going to
> suck.

It is fun to start the character lower. But, it's also fun sometimes
to start them a little higher. When you play a character up from a low
resource beginning you appreciate it more. That good ol' work ethic.
But, keep in mind that it is a game and sometimes you need to have more
fun *faster*. (Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the
fear of death -- that sort of thing.)

As a group, we've been playing SR with a starting limitation of 90K
resources and equipment had to have an availability of 5 or less and
be legal. It's a real challenge to build characters like this that
can thrive in some of the storylines that we throw around. We recently
started a shiny new campaign in which the GM said we could have almost
anything in the book as long as we could afford it. My thief has a
ruthenium polymer sneaksuit with 8 scanners on it and 2 powercells.
This stuff is normally hard to get in the first place, but we're starting
with stuff like this. The mages didn't initiate because it's not cost
effective when you need that force 3 power focus and a level 10 mana bolt
(they're pretty evil).

When you've played restricted campaigns for years, like we have, opening
it up a bit can make for a completely new game. All in the name of fun.

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 8
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 15:06:11 -0500
At 09:28 AM 6/26/97 +0000, Drekhead wrote:
>Do you guys allow Force Points to bond foci or spell locks? If so,
>how does that differ from initiation? Hell, you get a lot more out of
>a focus at char gen that a level 0 initiation, IMHO.

Yes, I allow force points for the purpose of bonding locks & foci. Why?
Because it's clearly stated in the rules (SRII, pg. 46) that they can do
that. Now why do I keep players from gaining access to Initiation?

First, Initiation is a huge thing and should be a goal that's worked toward
as the character grows from a fledgling runner to something more. To just
hand out metamagic, access to the metaplanes, the ability to increase one's
magic rating, and the ability to get rid of geasa from chargen seems
extremely unbalanced to me.

Second, the rules for Initiation clearly state the use of Karma to gain
Initiate ability and rank. In the Grimoire, never is it mentioned that one
may spend force points at character creation. I wholeheartedly believe that
there's a reason for that: FASA wants Intitiation to be something that has
to be worked toward.

However, the Shadowrun Companion decides to wreck a perfectly stable system
and states "...prohibit starting characters from using Force Points...to
create starting initiates" as a way to limit initiation in one's campaigns,
which gave the rules-twinks just the loophole they've been looking for. But
I guess we should be ready for such things from Shadowrun after all the
vague rulings and counter-rulings we've been subjected to...*hint, hint*

My original SR GM used the gradual initiation system years ago and also kept
players from spending force points toward Initiation. Perhaps this is where
my bias comes into play. I've always been, like Bull, a proponent of having
runners work their way up to greatness. When I had things easy I didn't
enjoy the game as much and neither did those around me. On the same page
that the SrComp states the above-mentioned limiting methods for Initiation,
it states very well the perils of allowing such a thing to advance rampantly
from chargen or even after.

Of course, my personal powermage theories run counterpoint to most anyone
else's that I've seen. Cyber yourself, burn out, and cast high-force,
low-drain spells. So what if you take a Light Physical wound from drain?
Treat it and move on (can't do that with Stun damage). And what would you
rather face: a force 3 Hellblast or a force 9 Stun Missile? Target that
Hellblast on me any day. Initiation just eats karma away from my ubertwink,
karma that is much better spent getting higher-force spells, increasing my
sorcery skill, and pumping up my attributes to street samurai levels.
Forget the foci, locks, and all that other crap; don't mess with the astral
unless absolutely necessary; and be the most twinkish cybermage you can be. ;^D
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 9
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 03:42:39 -0500
At 26-Jun-97 wrote TopCat:


>Of course, my personal powermage theories run counterpoint to most anyone
>else's that I've seen. Cyber yourself, burn out, and cast high-force,
>low-drain spells. So what if you take a Light Physical wound from drain?
>Treat it and move on (can't do that with Stun damage). And what would you
>rather face: a force 3 Hellblast or a force 9 Stun Missile? Target that
>Hellblast on me any day. Initiation just eats karma away from my ubertwink,
>karma that is much better spent getting higher-force spells, increasing my
>sorcery skill, and pumping up my attributes to street samurai levels.
>Forget the foci, locks, and all that other crap; don't mess with the astral
>unless absolutely necessary; and be the most twinkish cybermage you can be.
>;^D

Not to my standart mage player, burnouts are clearly on the rise.
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:52:47 GMT
Caric writes
>
> | Nope, I agree, and think that Spell Locks for starting Characters are
> | really annoying and powerful...
as is wired reflexes level 2 or especially 3.

> We allow them, but rarely are they used ('course that could be because i'm
> usually the one playing the mage) one spell lock isn't too powerful, and
> again anything else cuts into your spell list too much.
>
i find if the 'cyber bunnies' are all busy taking wired 2 or its
equivalent that +3D6 relexes is almost a must, you need to be able to
act even just to dive for cover. Detect enemies is also wonderfully
useful. But yes with moderation, i generally advise fooks that more
than 3 unmasked foci is considered a VERY bad idea and like you can
get that much initiation quickly.

> | Of course, they can be dealt with easily enough, but... It's easier not
> to
> | have to in the first place.
>
I really dislike GM's that blow things up just because they are
there. I have seen it done to the riggers van and it sucks. Sure the
mage that takes +3D6 reflexes and 5 off +4 attrubute spells at
creation really is asking for someone to 'beat the fastest gun in the
west' but a bit of survival tactics is fine. My liking of SR from
a roleplaying front makes GM's demanding you get your magician
cybered if you want an initiative enough to eat dirt when you need to
suck. Sorry i like to be able to play a magician who take the more
normal view that invasion of his soul with metal is bad and still
stand a chance when someone hauls out a gun with thier wired reflexes
kicked in, and lets be honest even with +3D6 reflexes etc. the wired
guy will still have a better initiative more than 9 times out of 10.

Mark
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:57:52 +0100
Caric said on 12:34/26 Jun 97...

> | Nope, I agree, and think that Spell Locks for starting Characters are
> | really annoying and powerful...
>
> We allow them, but rarely are they used ('course that could be because i'm
> usually the one playing the mage) one spell lock isn't too powerful, and
> again anything else cuts into your spell list too much.

Not to mention your money. Unless you take C or higher for Resources, you
won't be able to afford any foci at all, and only with Resources A or B
will you get enough money to buy a powerful focus with. However, most
magicians I've seen rather took A or B (especially A) for other
categories.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All I need is a little oblivion.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:07:26 -0700
| From: Mark Steedman

| i find if the 'cyber bunnies' are all busy taking wired 2 or its
| equivalent that +3D6 relexes is almost a must, you need to be able to
| act even just to dive for cover. Detect enemies is also wonderfully
| useful. But yes with moderation, i generally advise fooks that more
| than 3 unmasked foci is considered a VERY bad idea and like you can
| get that much initiation quickly.

Well it seems that you are using social repurcussions to deal with the
issue, which is a good way to do it.

| > | Of course, they can be dealt with easily enough, but... It's easier
not
| > to
| > | have to in the first place.
| >
| I really dislike GM's that blow things up just because they are
| there. I have seen it done to the riggers van and it sucks. Sure the
| mage that takes +3D6 reflexes and 5 off +4 attrubute spells at
| creation really is asking for someone to 'beat the fastest gun in the
| west' but a bit of survival tactics is fine. My liking of SR from
| a roleplaying front makes GM's demanding you get your magician
| cybered if you want an initiative enough to eat dirt when you need to
| suck. Sorry i like to be able to play a magician who take the more
| normal view that invasion of his soul with metal is bad and still
| stand a chance when someone hauls out a gun with thier wired reflexes
| kicked in, and lets be honest even with +3D6 reflexes etc. the wired
| guy will still have a better initiative more than 9 times out of 10.

I only partially agree with you here. People with only 1D6 init can be
just fine. You are part of the team, so it's the sammies job to attract
the bullets until you can get set up. I mean lets face it we all try to
geek the mage first, but when there are two guys standing there, one of
which is flinging lead at you at an unbelievable rate, you are going to
shoot at the guy whose trying to kill you. Unless you lack the forthought
to have your mage dress like any other team member (ie: no robes or pointy
hats:) you should be fine most of the time (meaning you'll get at least one
or two actions to get cover etc.) Granted this type of character is more
challanging, but hey it's fun to play that kind of character. IMHO.

-Caric

"These pretzels are MAKING ME THIRSTY!!!!!"
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:25:46 GMT
Caric writes
>
> Well it seems that you are using social repurcussions to deal with the
> issue, which is a good way to do it.
I try and push this one to minimise problems, and just occasionally i
ground something really nasty through a handy lock. Tends to be rare
though as i let it happen as the opportunities present themselves.

> | stand a chance when someone hauls out a gun with thier wired reflexes
> | kicked in, and lets be honest even with +3D6 reflexes etc. the wired
> | guy will still have a better initiative more than 9 times out of 10.
>
> I only partially agree with you here. People with only 1D6 init can be
> just fine. You are part of the team, so it's the sammies job to attract
> the bullets until you can get set up.
They can be but.
It depends on the game and whats comming in. If it's IPE grenades
theres on geek the mage first it's geek everyone first!
One or two sammies out of four or five going in the 20's while you
have 1D6 is liveable, a whole party of them is generally unbalancing.

> I mean lets face it we all try to
> geek the mage first, but when there are two guys standing there, one of
> which is flinging lead at you at an unbelievable rate, you are going to
> shoot at the guy whose trying to kill you. Unless you lack the forthought
> to have your mage dress like any other team member (ie: no robes or pointy
> hats:) you should be fine most of the time (meaning you'll get at least one
> or two actions to get cover etc.)
not if the bad guys went twice before you and some of them used
grenades.

> Granted this type of character is more
> challanging, but hey it's fun to play that kind of character. IMHO.
>
Yes. It all really depends on the game you are in. If there are a lot
of Smg's and bigger and sammies with wired 2 and better you NEED a
decent initiative, if the party is a mage, detective with boosted 1,
physad(probably power +1D6), sammie(wired2+) and rigger(VCR2 or no
mods non veihcle) then sure the mage Dosen't need any boosts, and
would be VERY powerful given +3D6 reflexes.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: Bull <bull_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Starting PCs and Initiation
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:04:02 -0400
At 01:25 PM 7/3/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote these timeless words:

>One or two sammies out of four or five going in the 20's while you
>have 1D6 is liveable, a whole party of them is generally unbalancing.
>
I heavily encourage my players (and sometimes even restrict them) to no
more than +1d6 initiative to start. This is because I don't allow starting
spell locks and such, so it keeps the balance.

As i've said before, I like starting things smaller and lower power.
Though later on things get more powerful.

And of course, I stress to my players that everything they have, the
opposition will have, so if one of them DOES get 4d6 + 20 initiative, they
can expect to face a lt of similar opposition. This usually results in the
"slower" players beating the living hell out of the guy with Wired 3 during
character creation, so that he takes something a little mroe reasonable...;]

Unfortunately, we've done character creation a few times... Do to
conflicting schedules and such, I've started a new campign close to a half
dozen times in the last year... <sigh>

Bull-still-not-using-his-real-mail...

Further Reading

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